Bards ?

[ZiggenTheLord]

Is there any reason a bard has to be a musician ? Could a bard use art or acting to cast her spells or is there a reason it has to be music ?

[Fri]

No reason. Perform: oratory is common. As well dance (Snowflake Wardance requires perform:dance)

[Millstone85]

It makes it easier to imagine a line of magic items befitting of the class? Musical instruments of power!

[Amaril]

I definitely don't think they have to be musicians. I don't like the default image of a bard standing in the middle of a fight and playing an instrument, anyway. At most, they should be singing as they fight. More commonly, I think of a bard's performance as short battle cries and verses, which hearken back to longer performances they've given out of battle, making their allies remember those times and fight harder for the inspiration. That being the case, there's no reason those performances couldn't be dances, inspiring speeches, monologues, stand-up comedy, or whatever.

[othaero]

To use 3.5 as an example, all of your bardic stuff was based on any of the performance skills. So with the 3.5 ruleset if you were playing an instrument you technically couldn't attack or do anything since both hands were busy; so most players would either focus on something like singing that you could do in battle or do 2 different ones. I remember picking Perform(Stomp), that performance group that was only popular in the 90s.

So to get to 5e, all Wizards did was combine all the perform skills into one so your bard could be a magical music prodigy which i feel fits the flavor better.

[Geddy2112]

Absolutely Not! Bardic performance is some kind of performance, but it does not have to be musical in nature.

Acting, speeches/oratory, dance, pantomime, stage magic, juggling, busking, comedy, physical stunts, storytelling, fortune telling, really any form of entertainment you might pay money for could be a bardic performance.

[VoxRationis]

I remember a time when the party I was DMing for had a bard with Perform (dance). There was a really tense, dramatic scene involving poison-soaked zombies in an ancient crypt threatening to drag away one of the party members. The other fighter refused to leave them behind, and the two desperately hacked away at the undead... while the bard did an interpretive dance in the background.

[daniel_ream]

Much like monks and paladins, the bard class is based on a specific historical or literary archetype. Music (sung and played), storytelling and poetry is pretty much it.

Of course, in no wise were Bards ever front-line combat troops, nor even auxiliaries; even the skald was usually a retired warrior. So you're already out where the buses don't run if you play a Bard as anything but a buff, buff, buff, buff, buff the other PCs class. Ultimately you're going to have to decide which seems more bard-like to your sensibilities: a bard who draws a broadsword and begins reciting the Saga of Njall Thorgrimm the Orcreaver when the chips are down, or a bard who whips out an easel and palette and engages in a little abstract expressionism in the middle of a fight.

Although if you're going to use art as your Bard's spell focus, you may as well go full Riopelle; whacking your opponents with paint-covered seabirds is likely to at least distract them.

[WbtE]

even the skald was usually a retired warrior.

I know you wrote usually, but we're talking about exceptional individuals here. One of the most famous Skalds, Egil Skallagrimsson, was composing poems at the age of three and driving buses up and down "Killing Fools Avenue" from the age of seven. More bard characters should be like Egil!

[Fri]

Arab warriors also have traditions of poetry slams in-battle. It's easy to imagine that some of them might not be warriors who are multiclassing as poets, but poets who warriors in their free time.

[Mastikator]

Arab warriors also have traditions of poetry slams in-battle. It's easy to imagine that some of them might not be warriors who are multiclassing as poets, but poets who warriors in their free time.

It'd be funny if two warriors met and began their fight with a rap battle.

[Celestia]

Clearly bards who focus on Perform (Mime) are all necessarily evil. *nods*

[Pugwampy]

I allow bards to skip on musical instruments and just plain old sing to activate their Buff in my games . I suppose I would not object to speeches , stories or poetry during combat either.

I certainly dont mind having fun with an orc bard singing out loud to my players.

Old MacDonald had a fart ........fart fart fart fart .

[Phoenixguard09]

Clearly bards who focus on Perform (Mime) are all necessarily evil. *nods*

Is that a Standard Action reference? I do love Standard Action.

My Bards are a wide collection, but in combat it is all about the inspirational effects they have on allies, and the minor magic they can perform I guess. Those effects can be singing, chanting, music or simply shouting depending on the individual.

Outside combat, poetry slams, musical duels, storytime with friends... All fair game for me.

[JAL_1138]

In 5e, bards can use a component pouch instead of an instrument to cast, so no music required. Fluff Song of Rest as stories instead of singing, and Bardic Inspiration as encouraging words or tactical advice.

[ellindsey]

This thread makes me want to make a Bard whose bardic powers all use the Perform (Puppet Show) skill.

[Celestia]

Is that a Standard Action reference? I do love Standard Action.

No? I was just making a joke about mimes being evil.

[Kid Jake]

I ran a Skald NPC in Pathfinder a year or so back that, while he did strum a guitar, relied less on the power of music and more on vivid descriptions of how his comrades were nothing but their society's whipping boys to stoke their rage. He'd sit on the sidelines telling his companions how they were all worthless pieces of **** that deserved everything bad that happened to them and urge them to just lay down and die like they were supposed to. In battle his men found strength in trying to prove him wrong, out of battle they all hated him for reminding them of their crappy lots in life.

[Thrudd]

What is a bard, exactly? It has changed from edition to edition of D&D. What is the role or archetype they are supposed to fill? The answer will need to come from the specific setting, what bards are in that world and how magic works. Originally, D&D bards learn the magic of druids (so they cast spells exactly in the same manner as druids do, with wisdom affecting it), they also have a separate magic ability associated with their music, allowing them to potentially charm anything that can hear them play or sing. This was two different things.
In 2e, bards became a subclass of rogues, with a limited number of thief skills and also learn and cast spells like magic users, with intelligence and a spell book. Their music has the ability to alter moods and rally allies, but it is not connected to casting spells.
In 3e, bard spells officially have a necessary verbal component to their spells and use charisma to affect casting, singing, reciting or music. So no dancing, unless it is accompanied by music or singing.
In 5e, bard spell casting is still connected to charisma and their performance, it is still implied to be music or oration based on the description of bardic casting. So I'd say there needs to be an auditory component, no dance or mime. It could be oration, reciting poetry or verses instead of singing or playing music, but it has to be something that can be heard.

[JAL_1138]

What is a bard, exactly? It has changed from edition to edition of D&D. What is the role or archetype they are supposed to fill? The answer will need to come from the specific setting, what bards are in that world and how magic works. Originally, D&D bards learn the magic of druids (so they cast spells exactly in the same manner as druids do, with wisdom affecting it), they also have a separate magic ability associated with their music, allowing them to potentially charm anything that can hear them play or sing. This was two different things.
In 2e, bards became a subclass of rogues, with a limited number of thief skills and also learn and cast spells like magic users, with intelligence and a spell book. Their music has the ability to alter moods and rally allies, but it is not connected to casting spells.
In 3e, bard spells officially have a necessary verbal component to their spells and use charisma to affect casting, singing, reciting or music. So no dancing, unless it is accompanied by music or singing.
In 5e, bard spell casting is still connected to charisma and their performance, it is still implied to be music or oration based on the description of bardic casting. So I'd say there needs to be an auditory component, no dance or mime. It could be oration, reciting poetry or verses instead of singing or playing music, but it has to be something that can be heard.

Bard spells in 5e only have a verbal component if the spell says they do, the same as any other caster (granted, I can't think of a "somatic only" or "somatic+material only" spell off the top of my head). Point being, whether there's a verbal component depends on what the spell's VSM requirements are, not on "being a bard." An observer wouldn't necessarily notice any difference in a Wizard casting Hold Person with a component pouch and a Bard casting Hold Person with a component pouch.

[Thrudd]

Bard spells in 5e only have a verbal component if the spell says they do, the same as any other caster (granted, I can't think of a "somatic only" or "somatic+material only" spell off the top of my head). Point being, whether there's a verbal component depends on what the spell's VSM requirements are, not on "being a bard." An observer wouldn't necessarily notice any difference in a Wizard casting Hold Person with a component pouch and a Bard casting Hold Person with a component pouch.

The bard spellcasting ability description says: "Your magic comes from the heart and soul you pour into the performance of your music or oration". That would imply to me that a bard needs to perform some music or oration to cast their spells. Since there are no spells that are solely bard spells, they are going to list components for other classes, as well, so that doesn't mean anything to the bard.

It is rather open for interpretation, since they don't explicitly say bards need to perform to cast, as it did in 3e. The above description would seem to be only fluff and therefore ignorable. You could justifiably say a bard casts spells like other casters, and only needs to perform for the specific music-related abilities like inspiration and song of rest. But it is listed in the mechanics section of the class and not in the flavor text part, so they might have meant it as more than fluff.

[Bohandas]

Much like monks and paladins, the bard class is based on a specific historical or literary archetype. Music (sung and played), storytelling and poetry is pretty much it.

Perhaps initially in the Gygax era, but I think since then it's both influenced and been influenced by other more recent archetypes. I've always seen it as very similar to the protagonist from Spellsinger (though with many important differences as well)

And the backstory to the Seeker of the Song bard prestige class:

Spoiler

Show

"Beyond magic, beyond sound, beyond good or evil, lies music
so profound and powerful that even deities quake at its sound.
This primal music—of unknown origin and with no limit
to its power—is incomprehensible to the mortal ear. To
some who hear a fragment of this music, it becomes beauty
incarnate, and they devote their lives to its discovery. These
seekers wield the power of music in ways that amaze even
the most skilled bards...

...

...The song never leaves a seeker, and its power can have
strange effects on their souls. Some retire from society,
seeking the silence of distant monasteries or mountaintops
from which to better concentrate on the music they once
heard. Others remain unchanged to outward appearances,
yet the music remains in the back of their minds at all times.
Some talk to any who will listen about the importance and
beauty of the primal music, while others cannot seem to
find the words to express what this music means to them
or to the world.

Is awfully similar to the plot of the Tenacious D song "Tribute"

[Cespenar]

The most recent one that I played was basically a storyteller. In battle, he used gallant battlecries to buff and insults/taunts to debuff. Out of battle, he told the story of his earlier quests, embellishing and exaggerating a step each time.

Another idea I had, who probably is done by others already, was a skald who makes basic yet catchy beats in battle (like We Will Rock You) by banging together his mace and shield.

Other art media, hmm. Let me think.

A painter would be cool in theory, but probably somewhat hard to fluff in battle. Maybe she would draw stuff on the ground with his rapier/staff/whatever and they come alive?

A sculptor may have made little clay statuettes in relevant shapes and can cast her magic from those.

A poet is pretty easy.

[Stealth Marmot]

A bard's class abilities are based on the Perform skill, and the Perform skill takes many forms.

Which can lead to some impressive interpretations that technically would still fly.

(According to the Book of Erotic Fantasy, sex is a Perform skill. No more need be said, imaginations will take care of it.)

In all seriousness you can get some great interpretations of the perform skills as an inspirational tool. The Evangelist class is one of my favorite concepts since it takes the emotional and zealous speech of those evangelists you see on television in order to whip your fighter into kicking more orc butt, instead of say, putting money into buying some preacher a new jet.

[Mmagsgreen]

Obviously, the next bard I play will need to do Performance: Stand-up.

[CharonsHelper]

Obviously, the next bard I play will need to do Performance: Stand-up.

Wakka Wakka Wakka!!

[Max_Killjoy]

Am I alone in finding the "magical bard" with "buffs and debuffs from playing/singing/poems/whatever" a facepalm-worthy concept?

I don't mean the concept of a poet-warrior or poet-"rogue", or a character who likes to sing or tell stories as part of their character concept, or even someone who fills the social role of a the skald or bard or troubadour.

I specifically mean the "my singing and playing are magical and have combat effects!" thing.

[Stealth Marmot]

Obviously, the next bard I play will need to do Performance: Stand-up.

With jokes so bad they cause physical damage.

[daniel_ream]

Am I alone in finding the "magical bard" with "buffs and debuffs from playing/singing/poems/whatever" a facepalm-worthy concept?

Yes. Alan Dean Foster wrote a series of moderately successful books on the premise, that have been optioned for a film.

[Max_Killjoy]

Yes. Alan Dean Foster wrote a series of moderately successful books on the premise, that have been optioned for a film.

1) that's hardly a high bar for "not facepalm worthy".

2) see clarification for above.