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    Default Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    I won't say outright that it cannot be used: you can make up to Large animated objects with it at CL 5. But according to the rules for building and modifying constructs, unlike other crafting feats, you have to meet the minimum CL of the construct. You can't just ignore that by adding 5 to the Spellcraft DC, and you can't "merely" use the minimum CL to set a DC the way you can with other magic items (which apparently don't have the CL as a "requirement" and thus don't need you to actually be that level to make them).

    I am scouring the SRD, but all the constructs I can find have a minimum CL of 6 (and most - the lowly homunculus included - are CL 7 or higher). Only the animated objects - which use their HD as the minimum CL, fall at or below a minimum CL of 5. (Large animated objects are 4 HD; anything bigger is 6+.)

    Am I missing something? Or is this feat just generally not worth taking until level 7? Are Large animated objects worth their costs?

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Well since feats come at odd levels, if there are uses for it at CL 6 that could be a reason to take it at level 5.

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    2,500+Materials craft cost for a flying vehicle (Large Animated Object) isn't TOO bad at level 5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    An Animated Object is a kind of creature. An animated object is a kind of item. So no, you can't apply a template. Unless you were to use animate objects to animate objects into Animated Objects and somehow apply templates while using animate objects to turn animate objects into Animate Objects for your Animated animated Object collection (or perhaps for a friend to watch anime with).

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Maynot View Post
    2,500+Materials craft cost for a flying vehicle (Large Animated Object) isn't TOO bad at level 5
    Well, flying mount, but you're right. I suppose that's cheaper and easier to control than a pegasus or a griffon or the like.

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Well, flying mount, but you're right. I suppose that's cheaper and easier to control than a pegasus or a griffon or the like.
    Animated objects don't need to be creature shaped. So you could make one out of a large sized vehicle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    An Animated Object is a kind of creature. An animated object is a kind of item. So no, you can't apply a template. Unless you were to use animate objects to animate objects into Animated Objects and somehow apply templates while using animate objects to turn animate objects into Animate Objects for your Animated animated Object collection (or perhaps for a friend to watch anime with).

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Maynot View Post
    Animated objects don't need to be creature shaped. So you could make one out of a large sized vehicle.
    Hard to make a "vehicle" that's only as large as a horse. But I suppose you could do something like a soapbox derby car.

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    It's good for having low-level NPC crafters with Craft Construct and Cooperative Crafting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Well, flying mount, but you're right. I suppose that's cheaper and easier to control than a pegasus or a griffon or the like.
    Might be able to rig up something like a hang-glider to drag some cargo or the like along behind you if you get enough air.

    If you're willing to gimp it completely by making it out of fabric like a kite, you can reduce the cost to 1,000 gp to make one and have it have a land speed of 20 and a fly speed of 40. Or make one for the 6,250 gp cost and have a land speed of 30 and a fly speed of 100.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2017-02-09 at 09:25 PM.
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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Hard to make a "vehicle" that's only as large as a horse. But I suppose you could do something like a soapbox derby car.
    Motorbike? Flying motorbike?

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Hm. Assuming negative CP are allowed, and that the "X size animated objects have Y CP" rules are for those created by the spell, but are not mandatory for those being custom crafted...

    Threadbare Flying Carpet (Large Animated Object: Additional Movement Mode (1 CP) (Fly [clumsy] 30 ft.); Slow x2 (10 ft. land speed) (-2 CP); Cloth (0 hardness) (-1 CP); Flammable (vulnerable to fire) (-1 CP))

    (4 HD - 3 CP)*1000 gp base price = 1000 gp base price; 500 gp crafting cost.


    Exquisite Flying Carpet (Large Animated Object: Additional Movement Mode - Fly [clumsy] 30 ft. (1 CP); Faster x3 - Fly speed increased to 60 ft. (3 CP); Slow x2 - 10 ft. land speed (-2 CP); Cloth - 0 hardness (-1 CP))

    (4 HD + 1 CP)*1000 gp base price = 5000 gp base price; 2500 gp crafting cost.


    It's worth noting that a Clumsy flight means that there's advantage to the slower flight speed; it has a lower minimum speed.


    Edit: For an additional 7500 gp base price (3750 gp crafting cost), either of these can be further enchanted with continuously-active levitate. Which negates the biggest disadvantage of the Clumsy flight. Could also knock off at least one more CP by reducing land speed to 0, at that point. For the threadbare carpet, would either want to boost flight speed by 10 ft. or remove the vulnerability to fire. Can't have a free item!

    Second Edit: It seems PF moved all the rules for who can hover, fly less than half speed, etc. into the Fly skill, and just made the maneuverabilities into bonuses and penalties to said skill. Interesting. Still, animated objects, as constructs with Int --, have no skill points, so the Large and Clumsy fliers with 8 Dex have a net -11 to flight checks!

    This means they can't do any of the things in the "flight maneuver" table, since the lowest DC is 10, and their maximum possible modified d20 roll is 9.
    Last edited by Segev; 2017-02-10 at 10:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Hm. Just realized something more than a little bit cheesy. A Fly, Burrow, Climb, or Swim speed of 10 less than the land speed of an animated object is technically free. +1 CP for the extra movement type; -1 CP for reducing it by 10 ft.

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimeryan View Post
    Motorbike? Flying motorbike?
    If you're doing 3.PF, you can actually get bonuses for it being bike-shaped, in regards to ground movement. I haven't familiarized myself with the crazy customization things in PF, so I'm not sure if the difference in move speed applies.

    The 3.5 version can get +40 ft. move speed for being wheeled, which is quite large.

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Hard to make a "vehicle" that's only as large as a horse. But I suppose you could do something like a soapbox derby car.
    Given that spacing is flexible, and a Large creature takes up a 10 ft by 10 ft area in combat? It's not really all that hard. Sure, it's bigger than a horse (Large), but it's smaller than an elephant (Huge). You could basically have a compact car in that 10x10 foot space.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Just realized I forgot to address part of your OP.

    You can make Trompe L'oeil and Waxwork Creatures with HD up to your CL, since the CL requirement to make them is equal to the HD of the creature being imitated.

    So if you had 3500-4500 gp, you could make a copy of yourself at 5th level, or a party member. Possibly with a bunch of templates stacked on since the price is based on HD.

    For 2500 + X, you could make a copy of a bruiser with 5 HD, but basically just get the ability scores, natural weapons, and HD. You'd want to be weight efficient, too, since you add half the weight to the construction cost as a material cost. 500 gp apiece can add on 2 additional HD per HD Modification, IIRC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Just realized I forgot to address part of your OP.

    You can make Trompe L'oeil and Waxwork Creatures with HD up to your CL, since the CL requirement to make them is equal to the HD of the creature being imitated.

    So if you had 3500-4500 gp, you could make a copy of yourself at 5th level, or a party member. Possibly with a bunch of templates stacked on since the price is based on HD.

    For 2500 + X, you could make a copy of a bruiser with 5 HD, but basically just get the ability scores, natural weapons, and HD. You'd want to be weight efficient, too, since you add half the weight to the construction cost as a material cost. 500 gp apiece can add on 2 additional HD per HD Modification, IIRC.
    Many thanks! These are quite interesting.

    And raise a question, though other effects could have raised it before: what happens if you make one of these based on your familiar? It's interesting because it says it keeps the base creature's special abilities, and the familiar bond traits are special abilities. Could you have a small army made out of paintings of your beloved kitty cat? (Terror be unto all first level wizards and commoners!)


    Edit: Well, the Trompe L'oeil says it gains certain special qualities, and mentions nothing about losing them, at least. Waxwork creatures do lose them. But since a Trompe L'oeil seems to even retain class features...wow. That's...very cheap for a full-fledged copy of a PC.
    Last edited by Segev; 2017-02-13 at 02:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    ...

    Edit: Well, the Trompe L'oeil says it gains certain special qualities, and mentions nothing about losing them, at least. Waxwork creatures do lose them. But since a Trompe L'oeil seems to even retain class features...wow. That's...very cheap for a full-fledged copy of a PC.
    Gets worse better than that, you could even make a Trompe L'oeil of another Trompe L'oeil. And another etc.

    Why stop there, why not build a Trompe L'oeil of an Alter Ego of a party member. Oh, and Alter Egos have ectoplasmic versions of their permanent magic items.

    Classic template stacking applies, Trompe L'oeil of an Alter Ego of a Trompe L'oeil... You get the idea.


    Additionally, in the 'Building and Modifying Constructs' section there is a section on building constructs with prices based on their CR ( CR*CR*500 for base price, base price 2 to create, and base price *0.1 or 0.5 for the body).

    This opens up a lot of additional Construct options if allowed. Weave in Awaken Construct and now you get Trompe L'oeil, or even Alter Ego, of any Construct you want.

    The 'Building and Modifying Constructs' info also contains info on adding weapons and armor to Constructs. These armaments can explicitly be enhanced after being integrated. Which means they'll likely be enhanced when a Trompe L'oeil of said Construct is created.
    So make yourself a Trompe L'oeil a Weapon/Armor Modification-ed Trompe L'oeil of any Int 3 creature and go to town.

    If the Integrated Weaponry of Robots is synonymous with the Weapon Modification at your table then the tech weapon natural weapons of Robots are enhanced when you make a Trompe L'oeil of them too. And oh look, the Int of Robots is conveniently high enough for the template.

    The above is all with GM permission and reeks of cheese, but its better to know the perils of the process IMHO.

    My personal favorite idea with Trompe L'oeil is a Trompe L'oeil of an Alter Ego of an Awakened Construct-ed Clockwork of a Gunpowder Ooze.

    Amalgam with Tattoo Guardian for control and ease of travel.
    Make two or three of them so they set each other off when they blow up and watch the fireworks.


    Oh yeah, speaking of Tattoo Guardian, it's a really nice option for a lower level Construct. Added to Amalgam its even customizable.

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Many thanks! These are quite interesting.

    And raise a question, though other effects could have raised it before: what happens if you make one of these based on your familiar? It's interesting because it says it keeps the base creature's special abilities, and the familiar bond traits are special abilities. Could you have a small army made out of paintings of your beloved kitty cat? (Terror be unto all first level wizards and commoners!)


    Edit: Well, the Trompe L'oeil says it gains certain special qualities, and mentions nothing about losing them, at least. Waxwork creatures do lose them. But since a Trompe L'oeil seems to even retain class features...wow. That's...very cheap for a full-fledged copy of a PC.
    I suppose there is a chance that one could pay about 1,000 gp and end up with all of the Valet Familiars one could ever want or use as a crafter. Or even use retraining and make several Protector Familiars so that one has multiple HP batteries, and doesn't even have to worry about them dying, since they'll reform (unless that still triggers BAD THINGS when they're discorporated and have to reform).

    Or even retrain into Magus, make a bunch of Mauler Familiars, and then see if they keep the higher BAB and HP after retraining back into Wizard.

    Very cheap for a full-fledged copy of a PC indeed. The main risk is involved in protecting the canvas or having the painting become a Trompe L'oeil on its own before you complete the construct making process, IIRC.

    Both Trompe L'oeil and Waxwork Creatures have a remarkable ability to protect your invested GP by making it harder to permanently destroy them.

    Although one really needs to look into ways to grant fire immunity or at least resistance, or fire-proof the base materials before making them when it comes to Waxwork Creatures, since fire damage is so common.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    I'm not entirely sure I follow the benefit behind making a Trompe L'oiel of an Alter Ego. (It is notable that Alter Egos are not...constructable constructs, so the first has to be found somehow.) I'm not really sure what benefit there is to making a Trompe L'oeil of a Trompe L'oeil is over just making a second Trompe L'oeil of the original, save that it means you don't need the original to pose for another painting. (You have the Trompe L'oeil do it.)

    What's a bit worrisome about Trompe L'oeils is that they are so inexpensive for what is, essentially, a full-fledged character. A 5th level caster could make duplicates of his whole party for 3500 to 4500 gp each, depending on whether they're small or medium creatures.

    Overall, it's priced like a simulacrum with the added cost of the painting, but it auto-resurrects and it has additional powers, plus has the same power and level as the original.

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    "Trompe L'oeil of an Alter Ego of an Awakened Construct-ed Clockwork of a Gunpowder Ooze."
    Why that while you could just make a Trompe L'oeil of a level 20 wizard(or any other T1 class)(you need CL 20 for making that creature which is the same cl at which you can make a level 20 wizard)
    You need the insanely high CL of 20 for creating that ooze because it have 20 hd.

    "I'm not really sure what benefit there is to making a Trompe L'oeil of a Trompe L'oeil is over just making a second Trompe L'oeil of the original"
    depending on the interpretation that meta Trompe L'oeil could have multiple paintings making it immortal thus making people needs to break more paintings to kill just one Trompe L'oeil(and even if it still have one painting it could have multiple times the respawn power thus giving him multiple rolls for respawn thus shortening his average respawn time)
    Last edited by noob; 2017-02-13 at 04:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    So if you had 3500-4500 gp, you could make a copy of yourself at 5th level, or a party member. Possibly with a bunch of templates stacked on since the price is based on HD.
    Silly question: Where does it say a Trompe L'oeil follows the orders of it's creator? This may backfire horribly.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I'm not entirely sure I follow the benefit behind making a Trompe L'oiel of an Alter Ego. (It is notable that Alter Egos are not...constructable constructs, so the first has to be found somehow.) I'm not really sure what benefit there is to making a Trompe L'oeil of a Trompe L'oeil is over just making a second Trompe L'oeil of the original, save that it means you don't need the original to pose for another painting. (You have the Trompe L'oeil do it.)

    What's a bit worrisome about Trompe L'oeils is that they are so inexpensive for what is, essentially, a full-fledged character. A 5th level caster could make duplicates of his whole party for 3500 to 4500 gp each, depending on whether they're small or medium creatures.

    Overall, it's priced like a simulacrum with the added cost of the painting, but it auto-resurrects and it has additional powers, plus has the same power and level as the original.
    The Trompe L'oeil of an Alter Ego IS a way to make an Alter Ego craftable.
    I'm not seeing anything in the Trompe L'oeil template that requires the original creature to be present.
    Thus, you can paint whatever you want and Tromp L'oeil it. Including Alter Egos.

    The benefit in making Trompe L'oeil of Alter Egos and Trompe L'oeil of Trompe L'oeil is the stat boosts, just like any other template stacking cheese.

    Admittedly, I erred. Trompe L'oeil of Alter Ego isnt as good as Alter Ego of Trompe L'oeil. Alter Ego of Trompe L'oeil gets to keep both the Trompe L'oeil armor/weapon buff and the permanent ectoplasmic magic items of the Alter Ego.

    As far as making Alter Egos, as I mentioned, the Building and Modifying Constructs section has info for just making any Construct with a price based on its CR.

    And yeah, making PC class pseudo lich with nearly free weapon and armor enhancements is borked.
    Also hilarious is making a Trompe L'oeil of the BBEG and just asking it about the big bad plan; just like Simulacrum .

    Our table runs on almost pure cheese fumes and these things have been too much for us.

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    ...
    Why that while you could just make a Trompe L'oeil of a level 20 wizard(or any other T1 class)(you need CL 20 for making that creature which is the same cl at which you can make a level 20 wizard)
    You need the insanely high CL of 20 for creating that ooze because it have 20 hd.
    The Gunpowder Ooze is an excercise in taking advantage of the Rejuvenation ability of the Trompe L'oeil. One explodes, kills another, they split, killing each other, they die, they Rejuvenate. Rinse Repeat for fun and profit.

    Sure full casters are better, but Gunpowder Oozes are mah vav'rite.


    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    ...
    depending on the interpretation that meta Trompe L'oeil could have multiple paintings making it immortal thus making people needs to break more paintings to kill just one Trompe L'oeil(and even if it still have one painting it could have multiple times the respawn power thus giving him multiple rolls for respawn thus shortening his average respawn time)
    Sadly, I'm pretty sure painting nesting doesn't occur. Would be weird if it did though.

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Silly question: Where does it say a Trompe L'oeil follows the orders of it's creator? This may backfire horribly.
    From what I can tell, there's two main ways they can come into existence.

    1. A character with Craft Construct makes them, and since they don't say they're free-willed and not controlled by their creator, they're controlled by their creator.

    2. They arise naturally from spoopiness as per Horror Adventures, in which case they have the same alignment as the base creature or possibly the dude who painted them or the spoopiness that brought them to life, if applicable.

    If the GM wants to screw you, there's ways for basically any construct to go uncontrolled or to have spoopiness happen and spontaneously awaken them and give them free-will.

    Hence why it's probably generally better not to go full cheese and instead abide by a gentleman's agreement, especially when employing Waxworks or Trompe L'oeils.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2017-02-13 at 06:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    ...

    If the GM wants to screw you, there's ways for basically any construct to go uncontrolled or to have spoopiness happen and spontaneously awaken them and give them free-will.
    This. Allofthis.

    The creation line itself is the proof in the pudding that they're controlled Constructs.

    Otherwise Trompe L'oeil would be the only example of a Construct that is player made that is uncontrollable at creation. Edit: To my knowledge.
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2017-02-13 at 06:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    1. A character with Craft Construct makes them, and since they don't say they're free-willed and not controlled by their creator, they're controlled by their creator.
    This is the scenario I'm focused on, yes. Do you have a source on "controlled by the creator" being the default, or are you simply assuming it is so? They are significantly different scenarios, especially when it comes to things that have an Int score.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    This is the scenario I'm focused on, yes. Do you have a source on "controlled by the creator" being the default, or are you simply assuming it is so? They are significantly different scenarios, especially when it comes to things that have an Int score.
    Valid concern. There are constructs which explicitly state they obey their creators, and the trompe l'oeil seems not to have such a clause. However, most things which create uncontrolled creatures spell out quite clearly that they don't offer any means of control. It's a gray area, here, it seems, but at the least, the trompe l'oeil shares its creator's alignment (if its creator makes it to do so), and presumably they can thus be allies/friends.

    Since it's inherited, it also would carry any controls or allegiances of the original. If you make a trompe l'oeil of an ally, it will at the LEAST likely be an ally as well. Make one of your familiar, and...well, it's essentially a second, but indestructible, familiar. Make one of a skeleton you control, and we get into fuzzy territory as to whether it counts against the HD cap of your undead control. It isn't undead, but it's controlled because its original is controlled, and...well.

    If you're less than noble-minded about it, you could also hold its canvas hostage to its obedience. While that's not an instant death sentence, it is leverage.


    But it is also quite possible that it is controlled, given that it lacks text saying it is not. But a more sure way of being certain would be nice.

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    This is the scenario I'm focused on, yes. Do you have a source on "controlled by the creator" being the default, or are you simply assuming it is so? They are significantly different scenarios, especially when it comes to things that have an Int score.
    Honestly, from what I recall, most constructs don't have explicit language saying the creator controls them in the first place, even the ones everybody knows obey your commands, like homunculi and golems. There's a lot of references to creators having control in various places, like the Building and Modifying Constructs section on Repairing Constructs.

    I'm AFB, so I couldn't quote you the relevant portions of the Horror Adventures constructs.

    Even Homunculi, while they say they share the basic nature and are made to be servants and don't want to go beyond a certain distance from the person whose blood they're made from, don't have it explicitly said that they obey commands, just that a character is their master.

    Golems have the most detail that goes into how they function and are controlled by their creator, though, and explicitly state things there.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2017-02-14 at 01:40 AM.
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    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    The Homunculus doesn't ever say "it obeys its master," but it does call out a specific master, and talk about servitude.

    It is noteworthy that animated objects don't seem to specify, when made with Craft Construct, that they obey their creator. But since they have no nature and no impetus to act without instruction, it seems fairly obvious they would.

    So... I think it's just assumed. Pity it isn't more explicitly called out.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    "The Gunpowder Ooze is an excercise in taking advantage of the Rejuvenation ability of the Trompe L'oeil. One explodes, kills another, they split, killing each other, they die, they Rejuvenate. Rinse Repeat for fun and profit.

    Sure full casters are better, but Gunpowder Oozes are mah vav'rite. "
    If your GM have no notion of setting or of setting conservation a Trompe L'oeil of an apocalypse swarm of a Creature Swarm of a caster of your level can break the setting like if there was no tomorrow because there will be one only if you chose to.
    Gunpowder Ooze is much more balanced and thus can be tolerated at a table and thus be used unlike the previous one.
    I like Gunpowder Oozes too but If I was to do that trick I would chose an ooze with lower HD(unless if I am level 20).
    Last edited by noob; 2017-02-14 at 03:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    ...

    If your GM have no notion of setting or of setting conservation a Trompe L'oeil of an apocalypse swarm of a Creature Swarm of a caster of your level can break the setting like if there was no tomorrow because there will be one only if you chose to.
    Gunpowder Ooze is much more balanced and thus can be tolerated at a table and thus be used unlike the previous one.
    I like Gunpowder Oozes too but If I was to do that trick I would chose an ooze with lower HD(unless if I am level 20).
    The Rejuvenation ability is the cool part. It's nearly identical to the ability of the same name granted to Ghosts and Liches.

    Lich Trompe L'oeil would be hilarious. I intend to make one with my current character if the current game ramps up to that level of cheese.


    Query, can one make a Trompe L'oeil of a Migrus?

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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    1) I'm not sure why a migrus would be an attractive thing in the first place, let alone worth making a trompe l'oeil of.
    2) It says it has the stats of a cat familiar; thus it has an int score.
    3) Therefore, it can have a trompe l'oeil made of it.



    The more I look into the trompe l'oeil, the more I realize that it's really poorly balanced, since it only costs based on HD. At the least, you'd think it would cost based on HD or CR, whichever was higher. I mean, a 4-HD Pegasus and a 4-HD advanced superior Pegasus (the kind with perfect flight and the advanced template) would be exactly the same cost to produce as a trompe l'oeil. And the advanced superior Pegasus is specifically +1 CR over the regular kind.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

    Even if it was based on (cr+hd)*100 + size based cost it would still be way too much cheap.
    It would need something quadratic like the default cost of (CR^2)*500.
    The price was probably made by someone who had no idea how much a construct was worth: it is so cheap you can have one single wizard make two full adventurer teams(if he use fine sized adventurers) with his lvl5 wbl and then retire and have a huge constant income 10 days after he took the feat.
    The reason for which there is still wizards above level 5 who are adventuring(And are not a Trompe L'oeil) is unknown.
    Last edited by noob; 2017-02-14 at 12:45 PM.

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