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Thread: The Powerhouse

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    Default The Powerhouse

    HIT POINTS
    Hit Dice: 1d4 per Powerhouse level
    Hit Points at 1st Level: 4+Half Constitution Modifier
    Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d4 (3)+Half Constitution Modifier


    PROFICIENCIES
    Armor: All
    Weapons: All
    Tools: None


    Saving Throws: Strength, Dexterity
    Skills: Choose two from any physical abilities, Perception, and Insight


    EQUIPMENT
    You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:
    • Any two melee weapons
    • Any ranged weapon and 30 pieces of ammunition
    • An (a) explorer's pack or (b) a dungeoneer's pack
    • (a) Leather armor, (b) scale mail, or (c) chain mail


    Powerhouse
    Level Proficiency Bonus Features
    1st +2 Fighting Style, Weapon Focus
    2nd +2 Action Surge (One Use)
    3rd +2 Powerhouse Archetype
    4th +2 Ability Score Improvement
    5th +3 Extra Attack
    6th +3 Weapon Specialty
    7th +3 Powerhouse Archetype Feature
    8th +3 Ability Score Improvement
    9th +4 Extra Attack (2)
    10th +4 Powerhouse Archetype Feature
    11th +4 Weapon Mastery
    12th +4 Ability Score Improvement
    13th +5 Extra Attack (3)
    14th +5 Powerhouse Archetype Feature
    15th +5 Action Surge (Two Uses)
    16th +5 Ability Score Improvement
    17th +6 Extra Attack (4)
    18th +6 Weapon Perfection
    19th +6 Ability Score Improvement
    20th +6 Powerhouse Archetype Feature

    Fighting Style-At level one, you may pick the Archery, Dueling, Great Weapon Fighting, or Two-Weapon Fighting Fighting Style.

    Weapon Focus-Also at level one, you may pick one type of weapon that you possess. (This includes unarmed strikes.) You gain a +1 bonus to hit with this weapon. This may be changed during a long rest, during which you practice and study with your new chosen weapon.

    Action Surge-At level two, you learn to push yourself harder than ever before. You can, once per short rest, take a single additional action on your turn. You may do this twice per short rest at level fifteen, but not in the same turn.

    Powerhouse Archetype-At level three, choose whether you wish to be a Brawler, a Sniper, or a Brute.

    Ability Score Improvement-At levels four, eight, twelve, sixteen, and nineteen, you may increase any one ability score by two, any two ability scores by one, or select a feat. No ability may be increased beyond its maximum (usually 20) with this improvement.

    Extra Attack-At levels five, nine, thirteen, and seventeen, you gain one additional attack when you take the Attack Action, to a maximum of five.

    Weapon Specialty-At level six, you gain a further +1 bonus to hit with your chosen weapon, for a total of +2.

    Weapon Mastery-At level eleven, you gain an additional +1 bonus to hit with your chosen weapon (for +3), and do double damage with your chosen weapon (for instance, a Greatsword becomes 4d6, and a Greataxe becomes 2d12).

    Weapon Perfection-At level eighteen, you gain a final +1 bonus to hit with your chosen weapon (for +4) and ignore the first source of disadvantage with your chosen weapon. (For instance, if you are attacking a prone target with a longbow, you would not have disadvantage. If you are both attacking a prone target and are blinded, then you would suffer disadvantage.)

    BRAWLER

    Fist Fighter-At level three, a Brawler gains the Monk's Martial Arts damage die for their unarmed attacks (scaling with Powerhouse level as if those were their Monk levels). Their fists are treated as light weapons (but NOT finesse) and so are applicable for two-weapon fighting.

    Brawler's Agility-At level seven, you may, Dexterity modifier times per short rest, take the Dodge action as a bonus action.

    Mighty Blows-At tenth level, you may score a critical with your fists on a roll of 19 or 20, not just 20.

    Thick And Sturdy-At fourteenth level, you may now add your full Constitution modifier to your HP for all Powerhouse levels.

    Brawler's Fury-At twentieth level, you may, once per long rest, enter a Brawler's Fury. For the next minute, your unarmed attacks do a base of 1d12 damage, add double your Strength modifier to their damage, and you may, as a bonus action, enter a retaliatory stance until your next turn. While in this stance, you may (without expending an action) move up to your speed and make a single unarmed attack against anyone who attacks you.

    BRUTE

    Brute Strike-At level three, you now deal +2 damage whenever you use a melee weapon.

    Retaliation-At level seven, you may, as a reaction, make a single attack against anyone who strikes you.

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    This is basically the same thing, only slightly better, and a LOT earlier. I feel it's okay, though, since a Barbarian is a d12+full Con Mod class with resistance to most damage, and this is a weedy 1d4+half Con Mod class with no resistances and just normal armor.


    Brute Force-At tenth level, you deal an additional +2 damage with melee attacks (for +4 total), and may, once per short rest as a bonus action, convert all damage dealt for once round to Force damage.

    Hit First, Hit Hard-At fourteenth level, your Retaliation feature can now be used as soon as you are declared a target, before the blow is actually made.

    Brutish Rage-At twentieth level, you may, once per long rest, enter a Brutish Rage. For the next minute, you deal an additional +6 damage with all melee attacks (for a total of +10, with Brute Strike and Force), all damage you deal is considered both its original type and Force damage (whichever is more beneficial to you), and you heal for half of all damage you deal.

    SNIPER

    Precise Shot-At level three, you treat all cover (except total cover) as one step lower.

    Aim-At level seven, you may, Dexterity modifier times per short rest, Aim for one turn as a bonus action. While you are Aiming, you have advantage on all ranged attacks.

    True Precision-At tenth level, you ignore all cover (except total cover).

    Shoot Sharp And Scarper-At fourteenth level, you may Dash or Disengage as a bonus action on any turn after you take the Attack action.

    Marksman's Mettle-At twentieth level, you may enter a state of Marksman's Mettle once per long rest. For the next minute, you have advantage on all ranged attacks (and, if you choose to Aim, this advantage cannot be negated by any means) and may treat total cover as 3/4ths cover instead (this is NOT ignored by True Precision or Precise Shot). The DM is free to rule some targets are truly incapable of being attacked (such as a target fully encased by a Sphere of Force) but most targets that are in range should be able to be attacked.
    Last edited by JNAProductions; 2017-03-14 at 12:02 AM.
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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    Added an obvious option to the equipment. Chain Mail. Can't believe I didn't have heavy armor.
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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    Um. 1d4 hit die?

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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Um. 1d4 hit die?
    And half Constitution modifier instead of full. This class significantly outdamages the Fighter-it's got to have something to balance that out.
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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    And half Constitution modifier instead of full. This class significantly outdamages the Fighter-it's got to have something to balance that out.
    Ah, I see now.

    ...

    I... kind of think this is an unworkable idea? You'll be a sniper, because anything else will get you killed incredibly quickly. You'll unload a crapton of Sharpshooter-plus-Advantage shots and massacre almost everything. Then anything left standing will sneeze on you, and you'll die.

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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    I would still up the hit die to at least 1d6. You could perhaps limit the armors he can use to Light and Medium if you want him to be more vulnerable. I just feel that 1d4 HP is going to get him 1 shot pretty easily in 5th edition by a lot of enemies in melee range. Furthermore, if he is dishing out that much pain, it is reasonable for the DM to have the creatures identify him as a greater threat and attack him more often.

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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    Powerhouse, defensively, is a Fighter with no defensive class features and half as many HP. If it got offensive class features the Fighter doesn't bave, and could deal twoce as mich damage as an equal level Fighter, I could probably write it off as a case of extreme balance, so long as HP×DPR was kept vaguely equal between the two beatsticks. Alas, it is not. Powerhouse is a wimpy Fighter until about 9th lvl, at which point it begins crawling ahead of the Fighter in DPR.

    If nothing else about this class was changed, I would recommend changing the HD to d6+Con mod, rather than d4+half Con mod. This would bring the aforementioned ratio vaguely back in line across most levels, to the point that it'd be close enough to balanced to be acceptable IMO.

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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    Entering this in a game. Any other feedback?
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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    In my opinion this is pretty bad. No, terrible and utterly unworkable. Maybe, maybe the glass canning damage vs survivability tradeoff could work for the melee options and that's be a fine balancing line, but given the sniper ranged options it's just inexcusably bad. Not to mention it's breaking bounded accuracy, doesn't adhere to the 11th level power spike i.e. Extra attack(2) of other classes and blows even the strongest Merle damage builds out of the water to such a degree at range it isn't even funny.


    Seriously, character just picks up a bow, snags Sharpshooter at its first opportunity i.e. 1st level Varient Human, and with arhery is firing -2/+10 per shot. At fifth level two attacks per turn. Then at 6th level it's only -1/+10. Three attacks at 9th. Then 11th.... an additional d8 per attack and firing -0/+10. So, at 11th level you're at 3x(2d8+15) with a +9 to hit. Oh, and those attacks will have advantage. And there will be six of them on an action surge. While we're add it let's add another attack at 13th and 17th, because why not?!

    Seriously, this is unacceptable and gives legitimate attempts at balanced homebrew a bad name. How much thought have you given this class? How long did you spend considering its implications? And I see you felt it was ready to offer it up for a read game, did you consider how easily something this poorly balanced and broken could negatively affect someone's game? Basically this class gets hit and taken out quickly, or ends any damage capable encounter at a ridiculous rate. As far as internal balance goes it's atrocious, melee options are no where near on par with sniper.

    I see this as a rough first draft, the pipe dream, now you need to break it down to rationality and take a good long honest look at it and give it a good reworking before you offer it to someone's game.



    Edit: I'm sorry, this comes across a bit too strong. I believe this class is very poorly balanced both internally and externally. I strongly suggest you rethink it being ready for other people's games. Glass Cannon can be explored without going to these extremes and without pigeonholing the class into ranged.
    Last edited by Zman; 2017-08-25 at 09:24 PM.

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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    You won't be much stronger offensively than a normal Fighter, and you'll die. Very quickly. At level 5 you might have something like 26 hit points; a CR 5 monster is going to do that much in a single turn. A CR 1 monster is going to do that much in a few hits.

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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    Okay. Sniper Powerhouse (with Sharpshooter) versus Fighter Battlemaster (with Sharpshooter).

    At level 1, they have to be VHuman. Both wear Leather Armor, giving them 14 AC. Both use a longbow. Fighter doesn't need to use SS's -5/+10 since the Powerhouse's max HP is 6, and their HP is 10-13. So, they hit on a 7, killing in one blow. Powerhouse hits on a 6 (non SS) but needs an average of 2 hits to kill, or hits on an 11, needing 1 hit to kill. Advantage Fighter.

    At level 5, they both have two attacks and Studded Leather, as well as 18 in Dex. We'll continue assuming they're both VHumans with SS. AC is 16 now. Fighter hits on a 7 (12 with Sharpshooter) and Powerhouse hits on a 6 (11 with Sharpshooter). HP is 49 (Fighter) and 26 (Powerhouse). Fighter needs to hit with 2 attacks (1d8+4+1d8 (Superiority die) is 13 damage on average) to kill, or can potentially one-shot with a lucky Sharpshooter roll (also requiring a Superiority die). With two attacks, the Powerhouse should be dead in two turns, easy. The Powerhouse, meanwhile, needs to hit with nearly 6 attacks to kill (2.5 with Sharpshooter active), so even with advantage from Aim, their odds of killing a Fighter in two turns is just under 74%. The odds of a Fighter killing them in that time is over 91%.

    At level 11, they both have three attacks and a 20 in Dex. AC is 17 now. HP is 114 (Fighter) and 56 (Powerhouse). Fighter now hits on a 6 (11) and deals 1d8+5+1d10 points of damage per hit, if they pop a Sup die. They need (15 points of damage on average) 4 attacks to hit to kill the Powerhouse. The odds of that occurring in two turns is over 95%. The Powerhouse, meanwhile now does double damage dice on their longbow, and hits on a 3 (8). They need to land over 8 regular attacks or about 5 SS attacks to kill the Fighter. The odds of that happening in two turns are about (with advantage from Aim) 84%. Pretty good.

    At level 17, the Fighter has 3 attacks still and the Powerhouse has a whopping 5. Still 20 Dex, still AC 17. HP is 191 (Fighter) and 86 (Powerhouse). The Fighter now hits on a 4 (9) and needs to land about 6 regular attacks or 4 Sharpshooter attacks to kill. The odds of that occurring in two turns is only about 37%, unless we use Sharpshooter, in which case it jumps to 54%, near about. The Powerhouse hits on a 2 (6) and needs to land 14 regular attacks or 8 Sharpshooter attacks. With advantage, the odds of that occurring in two turns are 0 (only 10 attacks are made) or about 98%. (Thought, to be fair, Fighters have a bit of a lackluster 17. They really should get their last Extra Attack at this level.)

    At level 20, the Fighter now has 4 attacks and the Powerhouse still has 5. Still 20 Dex, Still AC 17. Fighter has HP 224, Powerhouse has HP 101. The Fighter still hits on a 4 (9) and needs to land about 7 regular or just over 4 Sharpshooter Attacks to kill. The odds of that occurring in two turns is about 27%, or about 60% with Sharpshooter. (Jumps to over 80% if they manage to roll even SLIGHTLY above average on damage, since then only 4 hits need to land.) Powerhouse hits on a 2 (5) and needs to land 16 regular or 9.33 Sharpshooter hits to kill. With advantage (that cannot be negated, thanks to Marksman's Mettle and Aim) they have about a 66% chance of achieving that in two turns (using Sharpshooter, of course, since they cannot physically kill the Fighter in 10 attacks without it).

    Note that I ignored Action Surge-this is because, at all compared levels, they have the same amount of it.

    Note that I also ignored any non-damaging Sup dice-this was to make calculations easier. (Though, if you, say, make the Powerhouse Frightened, suddenly your odds of victory go up considerably.)

    Note that I ALSO ignored Second Wind. I... I just forgot about it. Sorry.

    But, in conclusion...

    Level Battlemaster Fighter Powerhouse Sniper
    1 70% 50%
    5 91% 74%
    11 95% 84%
    17 54% 98%
    20 60% 66%

    So the Fighter is ahead until the Powerhouse gets their fifth attack, whereupon the Powerhouse pulls sharply ahead, for levels 17, 18, and 19. Then, the Fighter mostly catches up.

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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    That is an utterly flawed and largely worthless way to compare classes. Comparing them against random CR appropriate enemies would be better. Even that misses party dynamics. When each is in a party and there is a front liner distracting enemies how fast do they kill? How much do they contribute? The simple build I listed above can solo most encounters if they initiate them at 600'.

    Even if, and it's a big if the obscene offense can be balanced by such weak defense, it still leads to a very unbalanced and extremely swingy class that either dominates and trivializes damages applicable encounters, or dies extremely rapidly, doubtly so if the DM specifically targets them. That doesn't scream "fun" or balanced to me.

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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    You know what else can beat most encounters if they start it at 600'?

    Literally anyone with longbow proficiency and Sharpshooter. Most enemies move 60' per round, with Dash. Some faster ones can hit 100'. That's 5 turns minimum, 8-9 turns max of fire with no response. If you CAN'T beat an encounter with that large an advantage, you've got a terrible character. (Note that this isn't always an advantage-a melee Paladin, for instance, has no particular advantage starting at 600'.)

    And you know what? The Powerhouse is (at higher levels) offensively more powerful than the Fighter. But it's so much more fragile, that yeah, it doesn't really work without a party. It's a great team player, assuming you have a good team. A Powerhouse NEEDS protection, or they die easy, but with protection, they kick a lot of ass. Comparable (and better than, at most all levels) a Fighter. But one small mistake-forget about an enemy flyer, run into an ambush, eat a nasty trap... And then you lose your offensive lynchpin.
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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    No, literally anyone with a longbow and harp shooter won't solo most encounters in 5-8 turns. The Powerhouse sniper will. At level 11 it'll land ~300 damage in four rounds against AC20. It puts out
    Stupid amounts of damage the game isn't ready for. That is bad design.

    No, the Powerhouse is offensively more powerful than the fighter always, not just at higher levels. You relied on your flawed Fighter vs powerhouse comparison. Compare them against expected AC and Hp numbers and that becomes readily apparent. Also your analysis could have at least included levels 6, 9, and levels 13. Which changes the rabbges the Powerhouse outperforms in even your calculations.

    Plain and simple truth, archers and ranged combatants are often left to do their think in a fight due to party dynamics. The Powerhouse produces the highest at will damage around, and really can spike damage to a great degree. When left to deal damage with impunity it will trivialize encounters as it blows the reasonably expected contribution of a party member out of the water. When the DM targets the Powerhouse it's so fragile it'll die quickly, gimping the party. You said it right, it's the offense lynchpin. To such a degree it trivializes other damage sources outside of niche cases. It's a selfish class, every combat encounter resolves around it, not it helping the party, but it relying on the party to facilitate its domination. That is bad design.

    The class breaks bounded accuracy over its knee, the static modifiers beyond a +1 should be approached with extreme caution. This is bad design.

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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    20 AC? As in, higher than the DMG suggested AC for a CR 30 monster? Very relevant.

    Howsabout we look at a Hill Giant-CR 5. Against a 5th level Powerhouse, 18 Dex, Sharpshooter, in an endless open field starting 600' feet away, it will take the Powerhouse (with their +10 to-hit and 1d8+4 damage, or, in this case, +5 to-hit and 1d8+14 damage, either with two attacks) 7 rounds without Sharpshooter, or nearly 5 rounds with it.

    Against a 5th level Fighter, 18 Dex, Sharpshooter, same conditions? With their (+9 to-hit and 1d8+4 damage, or +4 and 1d8+14) two attacks, it takes them just over 7 rounds without, and nearly 5 with it.
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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    AC 20 being high was to make my point. That's a ton of damage against a tough opponent. He'll, that soloing a dragon in a couple of rounds worth damage and AC. Against ACs you're likely to actually encounter that damage number spikes even higher. You're acting like I used a favorable example....

    A single level 5 character vs a CR 5 Monster is not CR appropriate. And if we look at level 6 it dies faster, and at level 7 it trivializes the Hill giant. And let's be clear, you had a single level 5 Powerhouse killing what is effectively a moderate rated encounter for an entire party. I believe you proved my point, thanks.

    Yes, picking level 5 is cherry picking your point of comparison. How about using 7th level... picking a point before the class really breaks open isn't quite fair, no?

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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    I'm not sure how you got that from my example. My example is not "Look how easily a Powerhouse specifically can kill a Hill Giant!" it was "Look how easily a ranged character kills a Hill Giant with the deck stacked in their favor!" (Do note that I didn't bother using any BM dice or accounting for criticals, which would help the Champion.)

    Because, in my post, I showed that it takes basically the same amount of time for a Fighter or Powerhouse to kill the Hill Giant. The main thing is that the deck is stacked MASSIVELY in the favor of the archer versus the melee brute.

    And sure-level 7. The Powerhouse will kill the Hill Giant faster (in about three rounds-little over, actually, by one fifth, and using Sharpshooter) but if we compare resources expended we have:

    Fighter-no resources spent, kills in 5 rounds.
    Powerhouse-spends 3/4 Aim uses per short rest, kills in 4 rounds.

    Edit: Let me ask you this, ZMan. Are you going to add anything useful to the discussion, or are you just going to rail at me about how terrible this is?
    Last edited by JNAProductions; 2017-08-26 at 12:12 AM.
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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    Sigh....


    And you still haven't addressed all the other problems with the class. You can add too weak st low levels to that list. Deals too much damage especially after 7th level. And has poor party cohesion, it becomes the lynchpin, and necessitates others to protect it so it can steal the show.

    I'm not saying this can't be workable, start with a d6 hit dice or preferably a d8. Give it full Con Mod. Limit focus to a +1. Avoid the Advantage on all attacks for a round, make that Advantage on one attack instead. Limit its number of attack to scale level for level with the Fighter so it maxes at 4. Maybe take away a Heavy armor for glasscannon feel, maybe even remove shields. This will get it much closer to usable.

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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    I'm going to reiterate my previous balance issue, but I'm going to go into more detail about it: okay, so the closest and most obvious comparison class to this is the basic Fighter, probably a Champion too. Both of these classes are very straightforward combat classes with very limited utility, so it would be pretty easy to say that, since they both have so little utility as part of their class features, and their both direct combat classes, they should both have approximately the same CR (assuming you want them to be roughly comparable in terms of power). This would essentially involve comparing the offensive and defensive CRs of the two classes.

    Let's start with defensive. For the purpose of my example, Champion Fighter uses its second Fighting Style to pick up something useful for offense rather than defense, so the two classes should have equal AC at all levels and so its effect on CR should be equal, meaning Defensive CR should be more or less entirely dependent on their respective HP values. In private conversations about Powerhouse, you have indicated that "half Con mod" would be half your Con mod rounded up, so that'll be my assumption going forward with builds. Here's the thing though: when Fighter gets d10+Con mod and Powerhouse gets d4+half Con mod, Fighter's really getting 6+Con mod on average and Powerhouse is getting 3+half Con mod. This makes it pretty clear that generally speaking, a Powerhouse is going to have half as many HP as an equal level Fighter. This means, for the two classes to be even, a Powerhouse has to have twice the DPR of an equal level Fighter, or the Powerhouse is getting shorted. Now again, the forum has shown that Fighters have a pretty ridiculous DPR already, and as you're aware in private conversations, throwing a party of Champion Fighters at a Homebrew CR 30 monstrosity has generally been my method of killing them before they blink. Powerhouse needs to be twice as good on offense; if it's not, then it needs to either step its offense game up, or step its defense game up, or it's inferior to the Fighter as an overall combatant.

    Time for build comparisons, to see how everything stacks up. Both combatants start out with Chain Mail, and pick up Full Plate at lvl 6.

    Spoiler: Fighter
    Show
    Variant Human/Champion Fighter

    Stats (lvl 1): Str 8/Dex 16/Con 16/Int 8/Wis 15/Cha 8
    Stats (lvl 20): Str 8/Dex 20/Con 20/Int 8/Wis /Cha 8

    Feats/ASIs:
    • V Human: Sharpshooter
    • Fighter 4: Dex +2
    • Fighter 6: Resilient (Wis)
    • Fighter 8: Dex +2
    • Fighter 12: Tough
    • Fighter 14: Wis +2
    • Fighter 16: Con +2
    • Fighter 19: Con +2


    Fighting Styles: Archery/Defense

    Yes, I'm aware that I'm spending the extra ASIs the Fighter gets on things that won't really affect his combat statistics. Eh.


    Spoiler: Powerhouse
    Show
    Variant Human/Sniper Powerhouse

    Stats (lvl 1): Str 8/Dex 16/Con 16/Int 8/Wis 15/Cha 8
    Stats (lvl 20): Str 8/Dex 20/Con 20/Int 8/Wis 15/Cha 8

    Feats/ASIs:
    • V Human: Sharpshooter
    • Powerhouse 4: Dex +2
    • Powerhouse 8: Dex +2
    • Powerhouse 12: Tough
    • Powerhouse 16: Con +2
    • Powerhouse 19: Con +2


    Fighting Style: Archery


    "DPR" for this chart's purpose is "Damage Per Round" as it would be against a target whose AC is appropriate for a creature of a CR equal to your level. It takes hit-chance and crit chance into account, and assumes Sharpshooter tradeoff if that tradeoff would deal more damage on average; I will also assume that the Sniper uses its methods of getting advantage when the Fighter cannot do similar. The goal is to see if (HP)x(DPR) is more or less even between these two classes at most levels, since it should be if they're supposed to be balanced against each other.

    Chart

    The chart more or less confirms my initial suspicions: prior to lvl 9, the Powerhouse Sniper just isn't dealing the damage necessary to make up for its incredible HP disadvantage, but picking up advantage via BA Aim (which admittedly it can't have all day) and a third attack early, it becomes overall superior at lvl 9 and onward. A class that has superior damage at all levels isn't a problem, and can be balanced against having inferior HP. But making the HP disadvantage in a way that it's at its most extreme in the early levels, and making the damage advantage irrelevant for the first half your career and gradually more and more broken for the second half doesn't really seem a good solution to me. a Class that, and I'm just spitballing here, got d6+Con mod HP per level and got good-but-not-broken DPR upgrades would be very nice for a glass cannon, but going too far with both the glass and the cannon part of that description ends up with a very very swingy class.

    It actually reminds me of Treantmonk's issue with Save-Or-Die spells in previous editions: they either do nothing, or they do everything. I put together a Sharpshooter Champion Fighter, already a heavy hitter, and you're dealing three times as much damage...with the HP of a tough wizard. If you get taken out before you get the opportunity to contribute...well, your team was probably dependent on you to deal damage, given this set-up. But if you don't get taken down, you're gonna tear everything to shreds. Designing encounters around this version of the Powerhouse is gonna be problematic.

    Spoiler: Final Note irrelevant to most games
    Show
    Not to mention that the one major downside of this class is completely offset if you put it in a gestalt.

  20. - Top - End - #20
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    Default Re: The Powerhouse

    Spoiler: A comparison
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    The intention of this section is to take a Champion Fighter 11 and a Sniper Powerhouse 11, put a powerful creature 600ft away from them, and see if they can kill it before getting eaten. Same builds as my previous post, except now they're both armed with an Oathbow (this benefits the Fighter more, since I was already assuming the Sniper had advantage). I will be assuming that the archers in initiative, and are running away at 30ft each round on their turn (and use their action surge in the first turn of the fight). Enemies will dash/use teleportation/whatever until in range, and then will attack with their best weapon that can reach

    Storm Giant (CR 13)

    Fighter kills the Giant in 3 volleys. Giant died 530 ft away. Fighter took 0 damage.

    Powerhouse kills the Giant in 3 volleys. Giant died 530 ft away. Powerhouse took 0 damage.

    Marilith (CR 16)

    Fighter kills the Demon in 3 volleys. Demon died 510 ft away. Fighter took 0 damage.

    Powerhouse kills the Demon in 2 volleys. Demon died 600 ft away. Powerhouse took 0 damage.

    Solar (CR 21)

    Fighter kills the Angel in 4 volleys. Angel died 0 ft away. Fighter took 74.8 damage.

    Powerhouse kills the Angel in 3 volleys. Angel died 210 ft away. Powerhouse took 0 damage.

    Ancient Gold Dragon (CR 24)

    Fighter kills the Dragon in 11 volleys...or would, if they lived that long. Fighter got off 7 volleys (dealing 361.83 dmg) before dying.

    Powerhouse kills the Dragon in 7 volleys...or would, if they lived that long. Powerhouse got off 6 volleys (dealing 464.85 dmg) before dying.

    Both vs Tarrasque

    They kill the Tarrasque in 9 volleys each...or would, if they lived that long. They get off 8 volleys each (dealing 663.42 dmg) before the Tarrasque runs them over like a freight train. It's worth noting that the both of them get close enough that it's actually somewhere just under a 50/50 chance of them taking out Big T together, which is actually kinda impressive. Heck, they could probably do it if they were shooting from horseback.

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