Retiering the Classes: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage

[ryu]

Yeah... all the Feats & Classes that the Mailman qualifies for? So does the Warmage. Sure, there are some spells he can't get... but he can get the Spell Domain for Anyspell & Greater Anyspell.

Here's your mail... I put it all in a box. And the box explodes. And so does the mail.

Your point? Mailman already consistently ends encounters on their first move AND can do other things besides. There's no point in giving up build resources to further optimize It's/they're dead damage.

[Troacctid]

I mean. Eclectic Learning. *shrug*

[Dagroth]

Your point? Mailman already consistently ends encounters on their first move AND can do other things besides. There's no point in giving up build resources to further optimize It's/they're dead damage.

The suggested spell list for the Mailman doesn't have much at all besides Blasting and Going First.

With the exact same feats, the Warmage isn't going first quite as often to be sure... (again, Anyspell & Greater Anyspell can help with that, as well as eclectic learning) but he's still going to be doing as much or more damage and it will be damage that targets any vulnerabilities that the enemies have as well. Thus, not needing as much metamagic/higher level spell slots.

[eggynack]

The suggested spell list for the Mailman doesn't have much at all besides Blasting and Going First.

Is the suggested spell list "full" as it were?

(again, Anyspell & Greater Anyspell can help with that, as well as eclectic learning)

Eclectic learning is cool and all, but still very much not convinced on anyspell, obviously.

[ryu]

Is the suggested spell list "full" as it were?


Eclectic learning is cool and all, but still very much not convinced on anyspell, obviously.

Even if it is you don't need an entire sorcerer's spells known to cover most of what a mailman is good for. Reliably kill whatever you're facing, while going first, and also do several other things competently? Easy game.

[Grim Reader]

Yeah... all the Feats & Classes that the Mailman qualifies for? So does the Warmage. Sure, there are some spells he can't get... but he can get the Spell Domain for Anyspell & Greater Anyspell.

Anyspell and Greater Anyspell needs to be prepared in your Domain slots.

[Grim Reader]

Ah, yes, here we are... By the power of the Wayback machine, I summon the old WoTC thread:

https://web.archive.org/web/20080221...d.php?t=963854

[Troacctid]

Ah, yes, here we are... By the power of the Wayback machine, I summon the old WoTC thread:

https://web.archive.org/web/20080221...d.php?t=963854

Tell me, what do you take for your Warmage's Eclectic Learning? Mirror Image, Fly (which you don't get until level *11*), and Spell Turning would be my choices.

Lol what

[eggynack]

Yeah, I don't disagree with all of that analysis, but that element is just bad.

[ryu]

Yeah, I don't disagree with all of that analysis, but that element is just bad.

Still though one derp doesn't change the fact that warmages blow goats for pocket change.

[eggynack]

Still though one derp doesn't change the fact that warmages blow goats for pocket change.

The man has always had a way with words.

[Gemini476]

Here are some things I'd look for out of a tier 2 fixed list caster:

[snip list]

How many of these can a warmage do?

I'm a bit bored right now, so I guess I'll just go through this. I'll try to stick primarily to the base class features, so some stuff can be solved easier if you have more feats and prestige classes. Oh, and I'll also try to stick strictly to the level given rather than go up a level to get access to the new spell level.

A lot of this is just having a hammer and seeing everything as nails, mind you.

Spoiler

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* The ability to prevent enemy chargers from charging by level ~3

At level three the answer is "not much": only having first-level spells means that you're pretty much limited to doing 2d8+5ish(14) damage from 30ft away or 3d4+5(12.5) from 130ft and hoping that they die first. You're very much still in the "hope the Fighter can zone of control 'em" period of the magic-user life cycle.
Blowing your Advanced Learning to fight this could work, I suppose - skimming through stuff alphabetically, you could even just use Bigby's Tripping Hand (PHB2) to trip someone with a +11 bonus at 130ft.
Or just try to position Tenser's Floating Disc between you and the charger to throw off their charge by forcing them to make a DC10 "hop up" check (that also costs 10ft of movement).

* The ability to kill a burrowing creature by level ~9, if the burrowing creature never surfaces

Fun fact: AoE spells do actually destroy walls and floors in 3E. If you're really determined and kind of know where it is for whatever reason (e.g. it just attacked someone through the floor and now is lurking just beneath) then you can probably count on something like (in-class) Lightning Bolt hitting through ([9d6+7]/2-8)/15=0.75 inches of stone and opening up a one-foot hole in the ground that other party members could utilize. Or 1.425 inches of wood, or 6.12 inches of ice, or probably some other interesting number someone's made up for the hardness/hit points of ground. (Note that by default burrowing creatures can only go through dirt.)
From some googling it looks like the Stronghold Builder's Guide puts packed earth at 2 hardness / (5/6ths)hp/inch, so... well, the Lightning Bolt eats through 20.7 inches. That's 1' 8.7". You can do the same damage to the floor with Fireball, but it's less focused.
You can also Advanced Learning for Rainbow Blast's 8+2d10+(2d10/2+1d10/4)-3*hardness damage against objects - an average 25.875 before hardness, which beats Fireball/Lightning Bolt's 19.75 if the hardness is lower than 3.

It's not perfect by any means, but the Warmage does have the ability to (somewhat slowly) dig through mass amounts of dirt if necessary. Getting feats to mindslave a burrower is probably superior, though, and native to the other two classes being compared here.

* The ability to destroy a fortification, or kill all its inhabitants without entering, by level ~11

Depending on the fortification, a well-aimed Flame Strike might work. Or cast Cloudkill - targeting the top of a citadel will send it rolling down the stairs.

Avanced Learning rears its head again: Channeled Sound Blast does 10d10+INT damage, which eats through half the suggested hit points for a one-foot masonry wall. You can cast it four times. Or you can Sudden Empower it - 15d10+8 has a decent chance of eating straight through the 90hp wall, after all. By which I mean a 53.55% chance.

* The ability to devastate an enemy army with far more low level soldiers than he has spell slots by level ~13

Cloud Kill is one level behind and auto-kills enemies with 3 or less hit dice, and you can cast six of them. One being Sudden Enlarged.

Circle of Death kills 13d4HD of enemies, Chain Lightning fries fourteen, Blade Barrier stops anyone from trying to get close to you (and its +4AC combined with Armored Mage (Medium) means you don't need to worry about non-siege ranged weapons much), and if you're really bored you could try your luck with Tenser's Transformation.

Just make sure to target the archers first.

Also, you just have forty spell slots? That's not much of an army.

* Some way to not lose a fight to "enemy wins initiative and hits you with Finger of Death" by level ~ 13

Nothing much in-class, sadly. You'll have to find some other way to either not count as living or get immunity to [Death] spells. Like, say, a feat or magic item - like, I dunno, a Scarab of Protection or something. That's literally what it's there for, after all, even if it kind of sucks at its job. All you can really do in-class is cast Tenser's Transformation for +4 to physical stats and +5 to fort, which isn't really that much of an option.

You don't get access to Contingency until level 16 with Advanced Learning, so you're kind of out in the cold here. You don't have that much in the way of buffs.

* The ability to ignore large amounts of incoming damage at level 20, or buff someone to ignore that damage

Only really possible against cold and fire damage, sadly, unless you dip into Advanced Learning to grab something like Wall of Force. Or just cast Prismatic Sphere, I guess, but you need to set stuff like that up in advance of the damage being aimed at you.

You've got some debuff spells, and since offense is the best defense in 3E you might as well try your hand at that side of the equation instead? Maybe?

Or just summon a bunch of meatshields with Elemental Swarm. There's not really that many good defensive options here.

Oh wait, never mind, just have Contingency set to defensively Acid Fog anyone who looks at you funny. That'll work, right? (It probably won't work.)

tl;dr: the Warmage can technically eek it out in some of these, but doesn't have the defensive power to avoid incoming death effects or massive damage. In-class, at least. If you can nab some non-Evocation spells somehow you're better off, but for the most part you're just trying to rely on winning the damage race.

It's also not that great at the ones it succeeds at, although the AoE nature of it makes it more useful for them than the more mundane classes. A Fighter can also punch through dirt to hit the Ankheg beneath, but can't do so in a 20-foot radius. Opening a five-foot hole in a wall is less useful than a 120-foot one. (Channelled Sound Blast is kind of nuts.)

[Aimeryan]

The Warmage from what has been discussed sounds like it also falls into the Tier 3.5 category, unless its ability to expand its competence to other fields of expertise has been downplayed, in which case it would be Tier 3.

Eggynack, how are you handling Tier 3.5? I, of course, have my preference with the tiers I visually described in the Home Base thread...

Oh, I guess I'll throw my vote in for Beguiler and Dread Necromancer as Tier 2; obvious reasons given my presence in Jormengand's thread, but mostly its down to overall problem-solving ability being similar to other Tier 2s when you look at all three pillars of gameplay.

[eggynack]

The Warmage from what has been discussed sounds like it also falls into the Tier 3.5 category, unless its ability to expand its competence to other fields of expertise has been downplayed, in which case it would be Tier 3.

The class can expand its competence pretty well. Just not necessarily with the spell domain, and not enough to get it into tier two. Make good use of learning (perhaps eclectic learning), add in arcane disciple, maybe toss on a bloodline feat, and you're moving from two niches to a whole bunch.

Eggynack, how are you handling Tier 3.5? I, of course, have my preference with the tiers I visually described in the Home Base thread...

There's some logic to it as a category, but I'm not sure that the justification is sufficiently there to justify adding a new tier. This is especially because the definitions I have don't necessitate such a tier nearly so much. With the original, there was always this awkward space between one thing but decent at everything, and one thing but decent at almost nothing. Now, theoretically anyway, it should be possible to construct a reasonable line that divides this range of classes well. You don't technically have to be capable of applying your power to literally everything in order to hit tier three anymore, so the warblade could land there.

The construction of such a tier also has the problem that the gap between tiers three and four is kinda awkwardly narrow as is. Like, you're standing there saying that the warmage could fall into tier three, or it could fall into tier four, and that means tier 3.5. But what that really means is that the two tiers suffer at least somewhat from indistinguishability. Adding a seventh tier in this area could actually serve to exacerbate the problem. Say we add tier 3.5. Is the warmage at the bottom of tier three, the middle of tier 3.5, or the top of tier four? Same problem exists for the warblade. If you can't figure out which of two tiers something falls in, then putting an extra tier in the middle just means that you have three tiers to choose from instead of two.

For that reason, my thinking is no. Seems liable to generate more problems than it solves. Really, classes falling awkwardly on the line between three and four would mean deleting a tier before it'd mean adding one. I think the gap between the two tiers is wide enough that it's not in my current plans. The gap between a barbarian and a bard strikes me as a broad one. I want to be able to say that a paladin is better than a fighter without having to say that a paladin is as good as a warmage.

[Gnaeus]

That's why I included the "thoroughly" qualifier. Traps are supported, but not as a major element. Traps/rogues have some of the chicken/egg problem, some tables completely eschew them and even some printed campaigns will have only a couple. Being able to deal with traps is nice, but it's also one of the lower cost things to find alternative solutions for.

Doesn't mean handling them isn't a bonus, but I don't think they're significant enough to warrant a whole tier step. The game only asks specialist characters to be able to handle non-combat encounters: you're supposed to have a rogue for traps, and you're not required to have anyone for social. You're only prevented from joining in those encounters if your DM forces you to keep your mouth shut when you have ideas that don't match your character's skills.

While I agree, you snipped the part of my post that discussed other stuff I expect the Tier 2 to be able to handle. I don't think Beguiler is T2 because trapfinding. I think trapfinding is a part of a suite of abilities that help to make it T2 along with all the other stuff I mentioned. The fact that a warmage is worse at it than a sorcerer or Dread Necro is a mark against it.

Also, re the discussion where the warmage solved all the combat challenges with boom it's dead, let me point out that Haste generally does more damage than blasty spells and it's right there on the Beguiler list. Beguilers, before list expansion or things like shadowcraft gnomes which they also do excellently, can still more than pull their weight in the slugfest game with their nice selection of level 2-4 buffs and BFC. D&D is a team game, and pretending that blasting is a combat power but buffing isn't also radically distorts actual class power. And here I'm just talking about buffing your party melee. It ramps up quickly when you are hasting the warblade and half a dozen minions.

[Aimeryan]

The construction of such a tier also has the problem that the gap between tiers three and four is kinda awkwardly narrow as is.

I strongly disagree with this; I'll be making a post later in the Home Base thread once I've got everything ready.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Beguiler being in tier 3 is my 2nd biggest gripe with the tier system (first being that I don't think tier 1 and 2 are so different that they warrant separate tiers...you can destroy a game with 10 nukes, even if someone else has 200). they're so blatantly belonging in tier 2, They have a great spell list, can outright replace the rogue, and anything they're missing they can make up for with UMD and/or a runestaff and eternal wands.
So I'm glad to see the OP put them where they belong. Yes, it's weaker than Sorcerer, but Sorc w/ all its splat love is the pinnacle or tier 2 and IMO on par or better than some tier 1 classes, so that doesn't mean much.

Warmage...I guess low tier 3. It's not even that strong at killing things past the first few levels (where Warmage Edge actually makes a difference) compared to a good ToB or charger build, and it can't do much else besides damage and some battlefield control. Eternal Wands and PrCs to expand spell lists are what keeps it in tier 3, otherwise it might even slip to upper tier 4.

I really don't have much experience with Dread Necro, but from what I've seen they can easily make Shadow (as in the creature, which creates loyal shadow underlings from those they slay) Pyramid Schemes and such infinite undead army abuse, so probably low tier 2 for that alone.

[eggynack]

(First being that I don't think tier 1 and 2 are so different that they warrant separate tiers...you can destroy a game with 10 nukes, even if someone else has 200).

Yeah, it was always a core issue with the game breaker model of high tier tiering. The extreme example of it is this weird idea of primarily 20th level analysis you see sometimes, where one 9th and five are pretty much the same thing anyway. I think there is a meaningful difference, however, between a 6th or 8th level wizard and sorcerer. There's value in versatility when the area you're versatile in isn't strictly the application of more nukes. My feeling is that there's a place in the tier model for tier two if you focus on the generalized notion of versatility/power growth. I think that what I have got away from that issue at least somewhat, though the various divisions are always more or less hazy.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, it was always a core issue with the game breaker model of high tier tiering. The extreme example of it is this weird idea of primarily 20th level analysis you see sometimes, where one 9th and five are pretty much the same thing anyway. I think there is a meaningful difference, however, between a 6th or 8th level wizard and sorcerer, however. There's value in versatility when the area you're versatile in isn't strictly the application of more nukes. My feeling is that there's a place in the tier model for tier two if you focus on the generalized notion of versatility/power growth. I think that what I have got away from that issue at least somewhat, though the various divisions are always more or less hazy.

I don't think ranking classes primarily on how much they break a game is the best model in the first place, since any actual DM is going to just ban obvious abuses like infinite loops. But if you are going to rank on there...having multiple ways to completely shatter game balance, it quickly ceases to matter how many more nukes are in your arsenal. "Tier 2" could just be merged into Tier 1 and placed on the low end, and the meaning of the tier listings wouldn't change at all.
It's like actual nukes...The U.S. and Russia may have thousands, but honestly only a small fraction of that would be enough to end humanity. Once you have several dozen of the things, there's really not much appreciable difference between you and the guy w/ 10x as many, from anyone else's perspective.

EDIT: Also, how often do you see games that advertise "Tier 3 or lower only"? I do plenty. How many do you see games that *only* ban tier 1? I've never seen that.
Everyone inherently knows the distinction between the first two tiers is trivial.

[Lans]

It depends on what break the game means. Using planar binding for multiple spell casters above your level is breaking the game in a different way than using it for wishes. Then their is things like alterself giving abilities that shouldn't readily appear for a few levels.

[eggynack]

I don't think ranking classes primarily on how much they break a game is the best model in the first place, since any actual DM is going to just ban obvious abuses like infinite loops. But if you are going to rank on there...having multiple ways to completely shatter game balance, it quickly ceases to matter how many more nukes are in your arsenal.

That's not the metric I'm using though. Kinda my point, that I think I've partially, if not entirely, avoided this issue you're citing. I mean, we're very likely to put mystic into tier two as well. That's really far off of something like a wizard.

EDIT: Also, how often do you see games that advertise "Tier 3 or lower only"? I do plenty. How many do you see games that *only* ban tier 1? I've never seen that.

Do you often see 5s but no 4s? Possible, but not too frequent, I'd figure. Close together tiers are close together. Usually. The 3/2 divide is obviously really big, but most of the tiers aren't like that. If everything were super obvious, we wouldn't be voting in the first place, y'know? I'm not sure exactly how much value is to the distinction we're noting here, but I think a distinction does exist. Probably not valuable for your cited full on tier ban scenario, but maybe valuable for figuring out what a particular character brings to the table.

It depends on what break the game means. Using planar binding for multiple spell casters above your level is breaking the game in a different way than using it for wishes. Then their is things like alterself giving abilities that shouldn't readily appear for a few levels.

Pretty much this. At 6th level, the sorcerer gets to pick a single 3rd level spell. The wizard is running up to something like four completely different ones. That strikes me as a substantial difference, even if the sorcerer still boasts a hefty stack of power.

[Aimeryan]

That's not the metric I'm using though. Kinda my point, that I think I've partially, if not entirely, avoided this issue you're citing. I mean, we're very likely to put mystic into tier two as well. That's really far off of something like a wizard.

This is true; the descriptions you use talk about losing/gaining power and versatility in order to move down/up tiers, not requiring such specifics as the ability to break the game. There is enough space via power-versatility to have six tiers and all be meaningfully different in their ability to solve various different problems, i.e., the problem space.


That aside, I agree with everything else StreamOfTheSky wrote. In particular in regard for this thread's topic, I am going to put my vote in at last for Beguiler and Dread Necromancer as being Tier 2 for all the reasons that have been discussed.

I'm less certain for Warmage. I think they fit around the same tiering as the gishes, so Tier 3 in the tiers we are using, but I don't know quite enough about their versatility to say that with conviction. If they are only strong in solving one sort of problem (that of which you apply damage towards) then, in the same way Barbarian is Tier 4, they might be Tier 4. Since it has been stated that this is not quite the case I will vote for Tier 3, but I would like to explore their possible versatility in more detail.

[Duelpersonality]

I've played Warmages and I've DM'd for Warmages, and in my experience, power-wise, the classes they are most comparable to are Warblade and Crusader. Their damage output is not far off, and they trade away durability in exchange for range and crowd control, which is a fair trade. And in both cases, the classes tend to be very strong in combat, filling multiple combat niches very easily, but they also tend to feel left out of exploration and interaction scenes, where they have little to contribute.

Combat is more important than any other aspect of D&D for evaluating power level. However, I am reluctant to put a class in T2 if it can't excel in all three pillars of the game.

I feel lie while I'm reading these responses that I have a very different style of running than most people. Maybe it's just too much value on Knowledge (history), but the warmages I've DMed for have always been able to contribute to interaction scenes fairly well.

That said, I still put them in Tier 3, with dread necromancer and beguiler in T2.

[DEMON]

Beguiler: T2
Dread Necromancer: T2.5
Warmage: T3.5

[GilesTheCleric]

Beguiler: T2
Dread Necromancer: T2.5

Is creating and controlling undead not as powerful as mind-affecting effects in your opinion?

[Bucky]

With the 'new' tier system, I think Warmage probably makes it to tier 3 on sheer power.

[Beheld]

Is creating and controlling undead not as powerful as mind-affecting effects in your opinion?

Probably the whole Beguiler having a better casting stat, better class features before PrCs, and and better spell list of all the other things.

[eggynack]

and better spell list of all the other things.

I'd tend a lot towards this one. The other factors are nice and all, but it's really the beguiler's diverse and powerful list of spells that aren't mind affecting at all that gives them their power. If it were just the features and stat, I'd consider them more likely equal in power level. As is, I think beguilers are more powerful, but not by even half a tier.

[Troacctid]

Probably the whole Beguiler having a better casting stat, better class features before PrCs, and and better spell list of all the other things.

You forgot more skill points!

But yes, Beguiler is better than Dread Necromancer for these reasons.

[DEMON]

Is creating and controlling undead not as powerful as mind-affecting effects in your opinion?

Perhaps not, depending on the campaign.

But as Beheld and Troacctid and eggy have already stated, I think the Beguiler has a more versatile spell list, as well as UMD and other skills and skill points for the levels where skills matter.