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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Am I alone in having misgivings about the warlock in 5E? It's taken two years of DMing and playing for me to realise it but I find I have three major problems with the class.

    First problem: eldritch blast. If you were to ask me two years ago just before I started playing the system, "which of these core classes sounds the most suited to a build focused on ranged combat" I would without a doubt say either the stealthy skirmish warrior (ranger) or the highly trained professional soldier (fighter). I might mention rogue or barbarian as well. Probably the furthest from my mind would be the eldritch lore-seeker who made a pact with an otherworldly being, because what the hell does that, on a conceptual level, have to do with ranged combat. And yet, mechanically, it's easily the best choice. At the small cost of one or two invocations you end up with a character who can, by level 17, make FOUR ranged attacks in one round for 1d10+5 damage each. In order to equal that, a fighter has to take a feat (Crossbow Expert, otherwise she can never make more than one attack per round with a d10-damage ranged weapon) and doesn't get all four attacks until level 20. The ranger never gets more than two attacks per round and so can never equal it. To my mind, this is an egregious dropping of the ball when it comes to making mechanics line up with class concepts - which I think is an important part of the design of games like D&D. It's a let-down for the ranger and fighter, whom we feel should be the best choices for a ranged combatant character, and also to the warlock, whom we feel should get mechanics that reflect his Faustian concept rather than inexplicably amounting to "dude with a big gun".

    Second problem: warlocks are natural snowflakes. Now this is less flat-out horrible than my first problem; it's more of a niggling annoyance really, but I find it hard to ignore. Of all the classes, the warlock is the one who seems most inclined to hog the limelight and demand to be the main character of a campaign. The central conceit of the power-hungry lore-seeker who has made a pact with some mysterious and powerful being just automatically begs to be explored in the story of the game. Now that's fine, even ideal, for a solo game. But in the classic party-based D&D experience it gives the DM a choice of two very unsatisfactory courses: make the campaign's story all about the warlock and make all the other players feel like sidekicks, or ignore (or just give unsatisfying lip-service to) the warlock's concept, making the class feel to both the player and the DM like a bit of a non-entity. As I said, this is not such a major issue; the fact is you can forget about it and get on with playing and still have fun, but I still think it's an inherent problem with warlocks.

    And my last problem: it's setting-wreckingly popular. The majority of games I've played in or DMd over the last two years have had at least one warlock PC. Obviously that's very anecdotal, but from these forums and other internet sources it seems to be fairly common. Now this is not something that any one warlock-fancying player can be blamed for and I would certainly never do so, and I would never outlaw the class when running a game either. But the overall effect of all these warlocks knocking around is that over time it builds a picture of the setting in which warlocks are more common than any other single class. It's as if there's a Mephistopheles or a Cthulhu on every street corner going "psst - you want some eldritch power?" And every fifth peasant who walks past is like "sure I'll sell my soul, what have I got to lose?" Now that's an amusing idea but it's not what I want for my D&D games which are, broadly-speaking, fairly serious in tone. All this when the essential class concept seems to suggest it should be, if anything, the LEAST common, the most exotic and obscure of all the classes. Again, this isn't really anyone's fault, but it can be annoying.

    I guess what these three issues have in common is that they all involve disparities between what the warlock seems, conceptually, like it should be, and what it actually turns out to be when used in a game. Of course, the third point might indicate that I'm more or less alone in this and should probably lighten up - but does anyone else see where I'm coming from here?

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    I find it's only as much of a snowflake as you allow it to be.

    I've had scenarios where it was "I'm a Fiend pact. I'm level 2. I doubt Mephistopholes is paying much attention to me. He likely makes 30 of us every day, and if one becomes powerful enough to actually garner his attention, great." where the DM didn't really play with the Patron.

    I've had times where I was a direct agent of an Archfey and the DM played with the Patron aspect constantly.

    I find nearly all the issues of 'I RAN OUT OF SPELLS AND WE CAN'T REST!' is solved by using Spell Points. Which isn't AL legal, but for your home table... Solves most things.

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Quote Originally Posted by HidesHisEyes View Post
    Am I alone in having misgivings about the warlock in 5E?
    I'm an unabashed warlock lover, both as a player and a DM ... but I just love the honesty in your thread title.

    First problem: eldritch blast.
    Without going down the numbers comparison rabbit-hole ... I both agree and disagree. I don't like that it's considered ridiculously optimal, so much so as to be required, that a Warlock be an EB w Agonizing Blast platform. I think it's marginally overpowered. But mainly, I just don't *like* that it's so easy to gain access to Agonizing Blast. That it's the default go-to option for Warlocks in the majority of cases.

    And my last problem: it's setting-wreckingly popular.
    Agreed. I have a hard "no Evil alignments" requirement for PCs IMC, so I address this by pointing out to a player that wants to play a warlock they need to figure out a way to accommodate the fact that they've sworn a pact with a powerful Evil (Infernal) or Insane & Hostile to All Life & Reality (Great Old One) being. Players are basically free to make up their own reason they would do such a thing and not be Evil themselves. What they're not free to do is redefine what it means to swear a pact to such a creature, or redefine what a Warlock is. Those things are fixed. OTOH, I have no problem with the good old standby of 'I sold my soul to the Devil / Eldritch Powers and now I'm trying to cheat my Patron out of his reward before I die' canard. It's an old fashioned archetype, and I like strong archetypes in this campaign. I just have to put up with far too many dark & broody Warlocks as a result. It's amazing how willing so many people are to sell their souls! Especially since I run a highly lethal campaign, so they're almost certain to die before they can succeed. Not that the PCs themselves know this.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2017-02-23 at 01:17 PM.

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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    I agree with the troubles for slightly different reasons.

    1. Invocations that make Eldritch Blast are too easy up front. Also, they make taking any other invocations less ideal. Most Warlocks look and function identically even though there is so much inherent variety in the available options.

    EDIT: and I want to point out that those other options are FUN and USEFUL. From a pure damage standpoint, they are less than ideal. The only warlock I played did not have an eldritch blast focus at all, and took no eldritch blast invocations. It was wonderful.

    2. The Pacts ARE Story Inherent. I think you can trade this away if you are willing to change the idea of the pacts without changing the mechanics. Such as, the Warlock is leeching power out of something and MAYBE has something to do with a power much greater and remote.

    I like that the character has a built in NPC to interact with, but I would prefer if we were able to choose something like a non-sentient patron, or a patron order or whatever that had less influence and on-screen time demand.

    3. The prevalence doesn't bother me. Its a prevalence of PCs which are inherently sparser in the world.

    4. If there were a Pact class, of which Warlock, Fey Knight, and Something Else were all subclasses, I think it would be the same mechanically and a different experience. They Feylock is not really a Warlock in the way pop-culture views it.
    Last edited by gfishfunk; 2017-02-23 at 01:13 PM.
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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Quote Originally Posted by HidesHisEyes View Post
    Am I alone in having misgivings about the warlock in 5E? It's taken two years of DMing and playing for me to realise it but I find I have three major problems with the class.
    No, I think that there's a decent number of people that hate the class for assorted reasons, and its mechanical... uniqueness is certainly a part of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by HidesHisEyes View Post
    First problem: eldritch blast.
    Oh, absolutely EB is the overpowered cantrip of the game, but having a d10 damage die isn't that big of a deal. A fighter who takes the sharpshooter feat is going to out-damage eldritch blast all day, week, month, and year no problem. The issues with eldritch blast are thus not about the damage die: it's that all of the pieces are in the first 2- count them, two levels, of the warlock class, meaning after that you can take levels in whatever else after that and you're garunteed to still have maybe the third or fourth most ranged, at-will damage that any possible build can, so long as you do end up maxing out charisma. For fighters with bows, on the other hand, if you leave the fighter class at level 2 and start taking levels of druid or wizard or something, you never get the extra attacks- you literally need 20 levels in fighter to get 4 attacks from them, but you only need 2 in warlock to get 4 attacks with eldritch blast. That's something problematic about the class that really only can be fixed at this point by house ruling that cantrips only scale with levels in the class that you get them from

    Quote Originally Posted by HidesHisEyes View Post
    Second problem: warlocks are natural snowflakes.
    Oh, absolutely, but who are you to tell someone else what they can or can't role play?

    Quote Originally Posted by HidesHisEyes View Post
    And my last problem: it's setting-wreckingly popular.
    The popularity in theorycrafting is absolutely bonkers, but honestly it's not that overly common in play as far as I can see. That may just be a thing with your group.
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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    I don't quite get the whole "special snowflake" complaint. All D&D PC characters are "special snowflakes" mechanically. People should be able to bring whatever character they want to the table within the bounds of the rules, without having to worry about someone else at the table attacking them for wanting to play a certain character.
    Last edited by War_lord; 2017-02-23 at 01:36 PM.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Don't recognize this in my games.

    1) EB

    Yes, it's good. But a fighter with hand crosbow will have 1 extra ranged attack for almost his entire carreer. A ranged ranger can have both horde breaker and swift quiver can have effectively 5 attacks as well. So I don't see this problem.

    2) snowflakes

    Player problem, not class problem. If you don't have a player that wants to be special, you won't have a problem with warlock. If you do have a player that wants to be the special one, he'll try it with an extravagant paladin or bard or anything.

    3) too popular

    I'm in my 3rd 5e campaign now; only 1 warlock so far.

    That's my experience.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Gonna have to agree with point 2. Even if the player is a really good roleplayer, either it looks like there aren't any consequences for selling your soul or the plot gets derailed. Either the patron never enters the story or if he does, either you feel like you're railroading or the patron loses mystique. It's similar to the problems many people have with paladin.

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Quote Originally Posted by Spellbreaker26 View Post
    Gonna have to agree with point 2. Even if the player is a really good roleplayer, either it looks like there aren't any consequences for selling your soul or the plot gets derailed. Either the patron never enters the story or if he does, either you feel like you're railroading or the patron loses mystique. It's similar to the problems many people have with paladin.
    How much of that is on the player? I put most of that on the DM.

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Aren't Paladins snowflakes out of the bottle? The Chosen One who is granted powers by the Gods because of his uniqueness in the world? Anyone can worship a God, but not many can turn that worship into Martial Prowess.

    Aren't Barbarians snowflakes out of the bottle? I get angry, sure, but not angry enough to gain advantage on all strength checks. Why can't a fighter get that angry and gain advantage? And they're all tribal warriors who somehow shrug off spears and arrows from their mighty thews and powerful pecs 'cause nothing says "I'm Really Angry!" like a sword bouncing off your abs.

    And Wizards, oh my gosh -those- are some special snowflakes. Can't they just pick up a sword like the rest of us instead of spending so much time in Wizard Towers and Schools that they endlessly "Give Up" different parts of their life in a super-brooding fashion?

    Literally any class is, by design, a special snowflake.

    Yes. The Warlock makes a deal with an evil entity, usually, and may or may not have to deal with that in roleplay. So does the Cleric or Paladin that swears themself to a deity. Or a Druid swearing themself to Nature.

    But why is that a problem? People throw around "Special Snowflake" as if it had some kind of real meaning that defines it as objectively bad rather than simply "Different". Ultimately I think we're looking at a situation where it will slowly become something no one gives a second thought to. When the next thing becomes the "Special Snowflake".

    As to EB being a great ranged attacker: I honestly feel it's about damned time there's a good magic-using consistent ranged damage dealer. In most previous editions this wasn't a -thing-. Your options for consistent ranged damage were Archery or maybe Throwing things. And that's it. Does it deal a tiny bit more damage of a more favorable type than a fighter shooting a longbow? Sure. But you can't use Sharpshooter on Eldritch Blast. You can't use a Magic bow and Magic Arrows and the Archery Fighting Style with Eldritch Blast.

    So while it's a nice consistent damage at range, it's certainly not the end all and be all of fighting past the 10ft mark.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Not everyone has the resources or the ability to become a wizard or a sorcerer, after all. Warlocking just requires a pact, very democratic, really. Doesn't require wealth or a magical lineage, just a promise, and all of your problems will go away.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    How much of that is on the player? I put most of that on the DM.
    Let me put it in perspective. We have a system of rotating GMs, and this player had been treating his patron as more of a pal (or piggybank, really) than a master, constantly asking for help and favours while none of the other GMs had the patron really give him tasks or really do anything at all. This state of affairs is obviously not brilliant, since it damages the mystique of the warlock patron (it was Archfey, BTW).

    So when it got round to my turn, I decided to shake things up by having the patron give him a mysterious task; to help a man of dubious virtue who was also working for this patron. The reason was not revealed to the player, but he kept bugging the patron with psychic messages until he got a response and then demanded to know why the patron needed his help.

    The session ended around that point, but I didn't know what to do when a Warlock literally backchatted his patron to his face. Do I turn off the Warlock powers or force a subclass change a la Paladin? Does the Warlock take psychic damage from the backlash? Either I felt like I was dropping lightning bolts on someone's head or I would be letting someone do something breathtakingly suicidal and get away with it.

    I mean, I do think I screwed up along the way, but I also feel that Warlock carries baggage that even classes that are similar like Cleric and Paladin do not.
    Last edited by Spellbreaker26; 2017-02-23 at 01:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    And, hey, if you don't like the "Working with a Dark Power" angle, change it.

    Make the Fiend pact also work with Avenging Angels so the fire still fits. Or Fire Elementals or Fire itself.

    Make the Great Old One warlock into a Psychic character rather than one touching the mind of eldritch entities birthed before the stars.

    Make the Fey pact not bound to Hags or the Unseelie fey, but the Fey Court of bright and joyous dancing faeries.

    If that's what you're worried about, change it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Not everyone has the resources or the ability to become a wizard or a sorcerer, after all. Warlocking just requires a pact, very democratic, really. Doesn't require wealth or a magical lineage, just a promise, and all of your problems will go away.

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Without going down the numbers comparison rabbit-hole ... I both agree and disagree. I don't like that it's considered ridiculously optimal, so much so as to be required, that a Warlock be an EB w Agonizing Blast platform. I think it's marginally overpowered. But mainly, I just don't *like* that it's so easy to gain access to Agonizing Blast. That it's the default go-to option for Warlocks in the majority of cases.
    I'm with Tanarii on this one, on the whole. I totally agree with the OP that it seems odd that "sold your soul" apparantly means "became living artillery"; the ease with which a Warlock can "optimise" Eldritch Blast for a ranged attack that stays competetive for all 20 levels (regardless of what Class those levels are in) makes it an obvious conclusion to draw that all Warlocks are probably going to take that "easy" option. On the other hand, it's by no means necessary that a Warlock even take Eldritch Blast; it's a great option certainly, but as has been hashed out many times since the birth of 5ed, it's by no means necessary to play the "optimal" game in order to survive and if a player wants to be a Bladelock (or Hexblade if using the new UA), or a non-combat focused Warlock without it, then that's perfectly fine. The additional utility you gain, even from taking just a single different Cantrip and Invocation, could be the difference between being able to play the character concept you wanted (i.e. a Warlock that isn't a walking machine gun) and not.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Quote Originally Posted by HidesHisEyes View Post
    First problem: eldritch blast. If you were to ask me two years ago just before I started playing the system, "which of these core classes sounds the most suited to a build focused on ranged combat" I would without a doubt say either the stealthy skirmish warrior (ranger) or the highly trained professional soldier (fighter). I might mention rogue or barbarian as well. Probably the furthest from my mind would be the eldritch lore-seeker who made a pact with an otherworldly being, because what the hell does that, on a conceptual level, have to do with ranged combat.
    Devil: You have summoned me, O puny mortal. I will grant you anything you desire--
    Warlock: I wanna shoot fire from my nipples.
    Devil: Wait, what? Are you serious?
    Warlock: Oh yeah. I want to see what I can destroy with my chest.

    A bit exaggerated, but I've viewed warlocks as very often (but not always) being the types to research forbidden lore to potentially destroy things. The sort that sees the world as a bunch of haystacks because they've got a match. Besides, if you live in an unstable world where might makes right, isn't it tempting to give in and give a little payback or to get the strength you need to protect your loved ones? And what good is it to get forbidden knowledge if someone stronger takes it away from you?

    Not everyone has the resources or the ability to become a wizard or a sorcerer, after all. Warlocking just requires a pact, very democratic, really. Doesn't require wealth or a magical lineage, just a promise, and all of your problems will go away.

    There is also the point that warlocks use CHARISMA, not intelligence or wisdom.
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Following on the OP's Warlock rant about how the DM has to focus on them since they RP the deity/being that the Warlock takes power from, Volo's presented a similar character type, the Aasimar has a Deva guide. In my last campaign (I was a player character,) I noticed that the Aasimar got some extra attention and hints since he had a Deva guide which was roleplayed by the DM. The campaign inadvertently led to use following the hints that the Aasimar got in order to go through the campaign, when the Aasimar died, it left a big hole in our campaign as our DM rushed to try and fix it and figure out how to continue to give us our campaign clues and hints.

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Quote Originally Posted by Spellbreaker26 View Post
    The session ended around that point, but I didn't know what to do when a Warlock literally backchatted his patron to his face. Do I turn off the Warlock powers or force a subclass change a la Paladin? Does the Warlock take psychic damage from the backlash? Either I felt like I was dropping lightning bolts on someone's head or I would be letting someone do something breathtakingly suicidal and get away with it/
    Punish him. Either give him 1d4 psychic damage with an (in-character) warning that next time he's insubordinate, he'll find his brain leaking out of his nose. Or if that seems a little harsh, just have his spells start fizzling out at unfortunate moments. If he insists on giving guff to the literal source of his class powers, there should be consequence.

    The whole theme of the Warlock is that they couldn't actually hack it as a Wizard, so they used their charm to take a huge and risky shortcut.
    Last edited by War_lord; 2017-02-23 at 02:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    I'm more bothered with those disgusting 2-level dips for minicombos than a full-fledged warlock. But I see your point.

    "Mortal, do you want to sell me your soul for nice rays coming out of your fingers and seeing in darkness?"
    "Yes, milord, I'll do anything!"

    Blech.
    Last edited by Specter; 2017-02-23 at 02:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Quote Originally Posted by HidesHisEyes View Post
    Am I alone in having misgivings about the warlock in 5E?
    No, I hate them too. Mainly because of the fluff though... it just doesn't 'fit' into my mental picture of what 'should' be in D&D. And as a DM, it forces me to insert an NPC (the patron) into the game who might not have been planned for originally, which is a pain.

    Also, yeah, the overwhelming popularity certainly offends my inner hipster. I will admit to being one of those terrible people who hates things purely because they're popular.

    Edit: wow, I don't think I've ever been so ninja'd. I didn't even take long writing that one!
    Last edited by Ninja_Prawn; 2017-02-23 at 02:18 PM.
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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Devil: You have summoned me, O puny mortal. I will grant you anything you desire--
    Warlock: I wanna shoot fire from my nipples.
    Devil: Wait, what? Are you serious?
    Warlock: Oh yeah. I want to see what I can destroy with my chest.

    A bit exaggerated, but I've viewed warlocks as very often (but not always) being the types to research forbidden lore to potentially destroy things. The sort that sees the world as a bunch of haystacks because they've got a match. Besides, if you live in an unstable world where might makes right, isn't it tempting to give in and give a little payback or to get the strength you need to protect your loved ones? And what good is it to get forbidden knowledge if someone stronger takes it away from you?

    Not everyone has the resources or the ability to become a wizard or a sorcerer, after all. Warlocking just requires a pact, very democratic, really. Doesn't require wealth or a magical lineage, just a promise, and all of your problems will go away.

    There is also the point that warlocks use CHARISMA, not intelligence or wisdom.
    ... This is fantastic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Not everyone has the resources or the ability to become a wizard or a sorcerer, after all. Warlocking just requires a pact, very democratic, really. Doesn't require wealth or a magical lineage, just a promise, and all of your problems will go away.

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    As for the fluff, I think it would be reasonably easy to make a patron that could fit many campaigns, even with less contact with magical powers such as fey or devils.

    Why not ancestral spirits? That forms the basis of many religions DnD settings like to treat as a free idea bucket. It doesn't make the character special other then getting a few words from great-great grandma about what to do. (I also would find it amusing if the spirits kept trying to match make their descendants to keep the line strong and and had strong opinions about who would make the best babies).

    Natural forces such as the elements would be harder, given the powers warlocks have, but many mythologies treat nature as an unpredictable, wrathful force. Probably isn't going to have much of an opinion on things, so other then tapping into that, the warlock isn't the chosen one or has a patron breathing down their neck.

    If you also want to be mean to your player, you could also propose that the warlock was granted this power by bartering with the fates, and has become a part of prophecy. Now, how many prophecies actually work out well for the people involved? They might be a special snowflake, but not likely one with a stable marriage. May you live in interesting times indeed.

    As for the dilemma of the character back-talking their patron, I'd talk to the player. Maybe they had a reason to do it, because they felt it was better for the party or the campaign. Maybe they were expecting some sort of retribution to use as character growth. Maybe they are inspired by the many, many, many tales of people making deals with evil figures and finding loopholes in folklore and thought it was appropriate. They're not clerics, so I'd say the issue is a bit fuzzier and it's better to work out a suitable compromise with the player then to seem like THAT DM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    ... This is fantastic.
    I challenge ANYONE to say they don't know of someone who wouldn't honestly consider trying to pull a fast one on a evil patron to get the power to shoot fire from inappropriate areas.
    Last edited by Honest Tiefling; 2017-02-23 at 02:25 PM.
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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Quote Originally Posted by HidesHisEyes View Post
    First problem: [snip]
    I'm inclined to agree.

    Still haven't had the time and peace of mind to fully read the class and what it can and cannot do, but I can say that, due to how much EB is mentioned all over the place, it doesn't seem to be at all what I expected out of it, with my expectation being something of a mix of PF Alchemist and 5e Sorcerer.

    But it remains that EB being so front-loaded is indeed a problem with the design.

    At some point I have to homebrew me a 5e Alchemist with Warlock as a base...

    Quote Originally Posted by HidesHisEyes View Post
    Second problem: [snip]
    To be fair, I'm also very used to see paladins and sorcerers dominate the play, with the other classes almost never being particularly front and center story-wise.

    And while I can see that as a problem, it's mitigated by the whole "you're small fry, your patron doesn't really care about you" sort of deal, which is how I tend to act about paladins when I DM, except their deity cares a great deal about them, it's most churches that couldn't really be bothered.

    Quote Originally Posted by HidesHisEyes View Post
    And my last problem: [snip]
    I can understand and share some of the irritation.

    That said, from my part, what I think is the most irritating aspect is how often warlock is mentioned as being either part of a build or suggested as a 2 level dip, but that stems from EB being bonkers, so it's not really a problem with warlocks and it's more of a problem with EB itself.

    As for the class being played.....honestly, in my table I'm the only one mildly interested and, even if I weren't, it's only really a problem if you happen to have 2+ in the same table, otherwise, as common as warlocks might be in this board or the internet at large, the game worlds aren't one and the same, so even if we have over a million warlocks being played in the world, in your particular campaign, the warlock is still the only one known and possibly the only one in existence, so it's not a thematic or in-game logic issue at all.

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    As a warlock apologist, Ill say that there are some problems with EB, not that I think its op (although it is good certainly). But the fact it scales off character level is kind of strange when you multi-class or dip warlock "oh yeah that power i got from chatting up a fiend 8 levels back just got stronger!".

    As far as 'snowflake-ness' goes I would say that theyre not any more than any other class, thats mostly a player issue. But it does set something powerful and solid in the game world that the DM has to work around (which can be annoying, but can be resolved if the DM gives them a list of powers in their world). And again any character with backstory will probably have something similiar the DM will have to work around.

    And as for their popularity, I would agree. They are popular and maybe more so than any other class, but for a good reason Id say. They fill a niche that (at least for me) is hard to find in other classes. The idea of a character thats just always works and is flexible enough to be useful almost always. Like a rogue but without the fact that their damage is situational (even though it is easy to set up, the feeling like there has to be a special set of cercumstances you need to met is distastful). Additionally, they have a bunch of passive and at-will abilities both in at out of combat so you dont need to manage a spellbook or spellslots per day. So Ill never feel useless.

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    I disagree that warlock is a snowflake class. All PC's are snowflakes that why we like to play D&D.
    OK so who's your character
    Player 1: I'm John to cool to have a last name and big muscular dude who has a giant a sword yes scars all over his body and he don't give a s*** about what anybody says he does whatever he wants. He has two levels in barbarian and the rest fighter.
    Player2: Louis Francois de valie the third. She's an ex Princess that her kingdom was taken away from her mother and father in a revolutionary revolt and now she's out to make all this money and gain power to win back her her country and to become the queen. And along the way she found out that she has a super rare blood coming from one of her a long long long long long long long long long long lost relative who was Dragon. Oh if you haven't been able to tell I'm a dragon sorcerer.
    Player 3: he was chosen to be a vessel of a god to do his God's will and to bring judgment upon the wicked, and lead the Lost in The Holy Name of my God. And part of his devotion he has renounce all his worldly ties including his name. I'm playing a cleric.

    The snowflake syndrome is not a class it is a role player thing. If you look at how a cleric and a warlock gain their powers it is exactly the same a higher being with more magical power then said player is granted power to become that higher beans personal vessel in the prime material planes. One makes a contract the other one devotes themself to worship.

    Oh and im not really pro warlock I'm neutral on the class.
    Last edited by Sir cryosin; 2017-02-23 at 02:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Quote Originally Posted by War_lord View Post
    Punish him. Either give him 1d4 psychic damage with an (in-character) warning that next time he's insubordinate, he'll find his brain leaking out of his nose. Or if that seems a little harsh, just have his spells start fizzling out at unfortunate moments. If he insists on giving guff to the literal source of his class powers, there should be consequence.

    The whole theme of the Warlock is that they couldn't actually hack it as a Wizard, so they used their charm to take a huge and risky shortcut.
    The problem with that is that if he does keep refusing (and judging by the way he works, it's not just going to be "I refuse to help you" it'll be "I'm going to actively hinder your plans") is that there's going to be a high possibility that he ticks off the patron to the point that the patron does cut off the source of his power or straight up tries to kill him; and it really would give me a not-quite-right feeling if that happened, almost as if I railroaded him into something (BTW, I did have plans for if he refused to help, with a gradual conflict building between him and the patron, just not for him to actively call out the patron right away) and then punished him for not doing it.

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    As for the fluff, I think it would be reasonably easy to make a patron that could fit many campaigns, even with less contact with magical powers such as fey or devils.
    Thats how I deal with it. Or at least re-fluff them so that maybe the ' older than time' tentacle monster isnt out to murder everything. Theyre just doing whatever it is they do.

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir cryosin View Post
    I disagree that warlock is a snowflake class. All PC's are snowflakes that why we like to play D&D.
    Yeah...Haven't PCs been of above average ability scores for the last few editions? So the party is typically made of charismatic exceptional athletes who are either all extremely pretty, or extremely ugly.

    Through I wonder how many players of warlocks wouldn't mind having their patron tied to the backstory of another PC. Such as getting warlock powers from a former devil turned holy servant of the same god as the paladin, for instance. Might cut down on a few issues, as focus on one would probably be focus on another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamcreative View Post
    Thats how I deal with it. Or at least re-fluff them so that maybe the ' older than time' tentacle monster isnt out to murder everything. Theyre just doing whatever it is they do.
    Ah, good ol' eldritch horror. The solution to many a dilemma with world building and setting.
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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Ah, good ol' eldritch horror. The solution to many a dilemma with world building and setting.
    But this eldritch horror is hip! They wear sunglasses and know how to ollie!

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamcreative View Post
    Thats how I deal with it. Or at least re-fluff them so that maybe the ' older than time' tentacle monster isnt out to murder everything. Theyre just doing whatever it is they do.
    Bolothamogg.

    In the Forgotten Realms, Bolothamogg is an elder evil of the Far Realm. A great and powerful entity who has the express goal of protecting the Far Realm from the TAINT of our Material Reality.

    In my Storm King's Thunder game, one of the players is a follower of Bolothamogg who swore a pact with the entity to help protect the Far Realm from Mortal Incursions. Fighting Giants and saving Hekaton has nothing to do with any of that, of course, but who cares?

    The Great Old One he chose as his Entity is neither interventionist nor in any way truly EVIL in a manner we would recognize. He'd destroy any mortal that invades his plan, sure. But he's not going to send Aberrations from the Far Realm to Faerun because they'd get corrupted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Not everyone has the resources or the ability to become a wizard or a sorcerer, after all. Warlocking just requires a pact, very democratic, really. Doesn't require wealth or a magical lineage, just a promise, and all of your problems will go away.

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Through I wonder how many players of warlocks wouldn't mind having their patron tied to the backstory of another PC. Such as getting warlock powers from a former devil turned holy servant of the same god as the paladin, for instance. Might cut down on a few issues, as focus on one would probably be focus on another.
    That could have potential, but it sounds like a recipe for disaster first and foremost. The two classes that are already going to have a lot of beef with each other now have a storyline reason to try and kill each other. You could have the Paladin not know that the warlock is so, but then that just means the warlock has an opportunity to sneak kill the paladin. Unless you really *really* trust your players I'd never go down that route.

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    Default Re: Confessions of a warlock-hater

    Quote Originally Posted by Spellbreaker26 View Post
    That could have potential, but it sounds like a recipe for disaster first and foremost. The two classes that are already going to have a lot of beef with each other now have a storyline reason to try and kill each other. You could have the Paladin not know that the warlock is so, but then that just means the warlock has an opportunity to sneak kill the paladin. Unless you really *really* trust your players I'd never go down that route.
    ...If the warlock and the paladin on the same side are trying to murder each other, I think the issue is less with the warlock class and more with your players.
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