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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    May 2016
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    Corvallis, OR
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    Default Sanity check this ability please

    I'm creating a class that combines weapon attacks with cantrips as the major source of constant damage. I want a feature different from the EK's War Magic but with similar potential. My current idea is

    Imbued Strike
    At 5th level you have learned to fuse your magic with your weapon strikes. Once per turn when you cast a cantrip learned from your minor contract you can make an attack with a weapon as the somatic component of the cantrip. If you do so, the range of the cantrip is the longer of the weapon's range and the cantrip's range. The combined attack uses your weapon's ability modifier and deals damage on hit (and any additional effects) as if you hit with the attack (or as if the target failed any required saving throw). This counts as taking the attack action for the purpose of dual-wielding only.

    Notes:
    • The class gets a selection of damage cantrips from another class feature, the minor cantrips. These DO NOT include the SCAG cantrips.
    • I've intended this to allow for both 2H weapons, TWF, and ranged attacks (arcane archer style).
    • The class does not get a 2nd attack feature (and this would not work with it anyway)
    • Right now, the class does not get martial weapons.
    • The spellcasting modifier is INT--STR or DEX is secondary


    How does this stack up as a replacement for Extra Attack (or a Sneak Attack equivalent)?
    The four possible cantrips are
    • firebolt
    • ray of frost
    • acid splash
    • shocking grasp

    and the secondary effects still apply. The class as a whole is a half-caster (with the spells-known progression of a ranger).

    Spoiler: Numbers
    Show
    At 5th level, that means that the attack with firebolt and a quarterstaff does 1d6/1d8 + 2d10 + STR damage (plus a possible bonus action attack if dual-wielding). At higher levels, the damage from the cantrip increases.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
    PhoenixPhyre's Extended Homebrew Signature
    5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
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    Default Re: Sanity check this ability please

    Looks interesting, and workable. Not sure how it stacks up to SA/Extra Attack (I'd have to do the math.) It's very confusingly worded, though. (I think the concept you have is rather obtuse, too.) Just to make sure I understand: You make a spell attack with your weapon's attack modifier, and the range of the weapon or spell (whichever is longer). When you hit, you deal damage for both a weapon attack and the cantrip. Do I have that correct? (going to assume I do.)

    Firstly, this looks like it allows you to make a ranged attack with a greatsword, and deal greatsword damage with it. That... seems really weird. Secondly, it looks like you can give yourself advantage on attacks against anyone with metal armor, using Shocking Grasp. Advantage is very powerful - for a caster in melee with Shocking Grasp's 2d8 damage, that's one thing. For a gish, with 2d8+2d6+str... well, that's a different story.

    All in all, I like the idea, but the way it's written is not only rather complicated and very confusing, but also somewhat exploitable. I'd suggest a rewrite, with more specific wording regarding range, attack modifier ("ability modifier" is different from "attack modifier"), and damage.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    May 2016
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    Corvallis, OR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sanity check this ability please

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusvul View Post
    Looks interesting, and workable. Not sure how it stacks up to SA/Extra Attack (I'd have to do the math.) It's very confusingly worded, though. (I think the concept you have is rather obtuse, too.) Just to make sure I understand: You make a spell attack with your weapon's attack modifier, and the range of the weapon or spell (whichever is longer). When you hit, you deal damage for both a weapon attack and the cantrip. Do I have that correct? (going to assume I do.)

    Firstly, this looks like it allows you to make a ranged attack with a greatsword, and deal greatsword damage with it. That... seems really weird. Secondly, it looks like you can give yourself advantage on attacks against anyone with metal armor, using Shocking Grasp. Advantage is very powerful - for a caster in melee with Shocking Grasp's 2d8 damage, that's one thing. For a gish, with 2d8+2d6+str... well, that's a different story.

    All in all, I like the idea, but the way it's written is not only rather complicated and very confusing, but also somewhat exploitable. I'd suggest a rewrite, with more specific wording regarding range, attack modifier ("ability modifier" is different from "attack modifier"), and damage.
    Thanks. Your understanding is correct.

    I think I'll change the range to be just the weapon range (so shocking grasp at range with a crossbow would work but firebolt at range with a greatsword wouldn't).

    I didn't remember that shocking grasp has advantage against metal armor. I'll have to look into that one.

    As for the modifiers, I intend it to be the same as the SCAG cantrips--attacking requires a successful weapon attack that deals extra magic damage + rider effect. I'll fix the wording to be more specific.

    The class is elemental focused which explains the spell choices. If there are better damage cantrips associated with each element, I'd love to hear about them.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
    PhoenixPhyre's Extended Homebrew Signature
    5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Djinn_in_Tonic's Avatar

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    Default Re: Sanity check this ability please

    Out of curiosity, with the change to limit the effect to weapon range, why not just do the following?

    Imbued Strike
    When you take the weapon attack action, you may cast a single-target cantrip you know on the target of your weapon attack as part of the same action. If you have the Extra Attack class feature from another source, you must choose whether to use the Extra Attack class feature or the Imbued Strike class feature.


    Now, Shocking Grasp is still reliably the best option against any metal-wearer, but the ability is MUCH cleaner, doesn't rely on a single attack roll (giving you a nicer average with fewer all-or-nothing turns), and still ends up about the same in terms of flavor.
    Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2017-02-23 at 04:54 PM.

    Ingredients

    2oz Djinn
    5oz Water
    1 Lime Wedge


    Instructions

    Pour Djinn and tonic water into a glass filled with ice cubes. Stir well. Garnish with lime wedge. Serve.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    May 2016
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    Corvallis, OR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sanity check this ability please

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    Out of curiosity, with the change to limit the effect to weapon range, why not just do the following?

    Imbued Strike
    When you take the weapon attack action, you may cast a single-target cantrip you know on the target of your weapon attack as part of the same action. If you have the Extra Attack class feature from another source, you must choose whether to use the Extra Attack class feature or the Imbued Strike class feature.


    Now, Shocking Grasp is still reliably the best option against any metal-wearer, but the ability is MUCH cleaner, doesn't rely on a single attack roll (giving you a nicer average with fewer all-or-nothing turns), and still ends up about the same in terms of flavor.
    I like that phrasing. I may have to add a clause "regardless of the normal range of the cantrip" since two of the possible cantrips are point-blank range anyway and I want to allow for an arcane archer-style.

    Thanks both of you!
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
    PhoenixPhyre's Extended Homebrew Signature
    5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sanity check this ability please

    That version looks pretty good to me as well. It's elegant and very much in keeping with 5e's MO, I'm not qualified to speak on balance though. Looks slightly stronger than War Magic (doesn't use a bonus action) but when compared to Extra Attack it could line up just fine. In theory, an attack is equal in power to a cantrip, so giving "Extra Cantrip" instead of "Extra Attack" should be fine.

    Other elemental cantrips (* = from the EEPC) include:

    *Control Flames (Fire)
    *Create Bonfire (Fire)
    *Frostbite (Water)
    *Gust (Air)
    *Magic Stone (Earth)
    *Mold Earth (Earth)
    Poison Spray (Earth or Water)
    Produce Flame (Fire)
    Sacred Flame (Fire)
    *Shape Water (Water)
    Thorn Whip (Earth or Water)
    *Thunderclap (Air)

    Out of that list, the following are comparable to attacks: Frostbite, Poison Spray, Produce Flame, Sacred Flame, and Thorn Whip. Produce Flame is strictly inferior to Firebolt for combat, and Sacred Flame's radiant damage is a little weird, so I'd leave those out. Thorn Whip and Poison Spray work well if you're fluffing Water or Earth as the "life" element, but otherwise should probably be left out. I'd suggest considering Frostbite for Water, though, rather than Ray of Frost - that way there's more contrast with Firebolt.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Sanity check this ability please

    testing my ability to post

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