dissociative identity disorder and alignments

[junlogji]

coi do

what are your thoughts about how alignments should work with characters with dissociative identity disorder more commonly referred to as multiple personality disorder

for example should their alignments be the mean of their "personalities" or perhaps each "personality" should be assigned a different alignment

do you think they should be able to have alignment restricted classes if one or more of their "personalities" does not fit that alignment's behavior if you do then are they considered to be an ex of that class while that takes place would a paladin have to atone when it happens

just some examples

i would like to read all of your thoughts on the subject

[Honest Tiefling]

Personally, I wouldn't allow it. Firstly, the disorder is poorly understood, even by professionals. I don't mind in theory if people want to explore mental disorders or different ways of thinking, but most of the time I have seen this happen it wasn't treated with respect or knowledge. Mostly it was treated as a way to make a character 'edgy' without really knowing anything about the disorder. I mean, how many people know that the very existence of Dissociative Personality Disorder is actually still debated?

Secondly, alignment restricted classes tend to be restricted for reasons. Many of these reasons wouldn't apply. I sincerely doubt that a god would grant powers to someone suffering from trauma to this degree. If they did, they're kinda a jerkbag for granting powers to go fight to someone really in need of help. Or an idiot, if they couldn't keep tabs on their holy servants long enough to figure out what is happening. Alignment restrictions for non-supernatural reasons isn't my bag to begin with.

The third issue I have is the same reason I won't allow child PCs...WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON THE BATTLEFIELD. Not only is it really dark to send people in need of severe mental help in dangerous situations, it does begin to stretch credibility for me if people in this situation are 100% as capable of their fellows. Sure, no one is perfect and many would experience trauma, but would someone with severe issues regarding their own sense of self really be able to function in these situations?

[Darth Ultron]

I know it's tempting to say that having a ''mental illness is an awesome way to beat the alignment system and rules'', but it just would not work that way. It would be nice be (fake) being ''good'' most of the time, and then have the awesome excuse to be able to do any evil act and still ''be good''.

It would not work though. Even if it's ''another personality'' or whatever....it's still you. If a person is good all week, and just does a horrible act of pure evil all weekend...that person is evil. And the same is true for the personality person.

Alignment is the sum of everything about a person, so everything counts.

[druid91]

Well. Alignment isn't an internal thing. It's something the planar powers that be assign you. So presumably, unless they were kind enough to split your actions between your different personalities, it would simply count all of the persons actions as your own.

Also, this is fantasy. Where people in need of severe mental help literally get reality bending powers from beyond the stars sometimes. See, Great Old One warlock.

[SethoMarkus]

Avoiding getting into any real-world implications, I think it depends on how multiple personalities works in your setting. It also has to deal with how alignment and the afterlife play into your setting. For example, if a person's physical body accompanies them in the afterlife, what happens if the person is destined for multiple different realms in the afterlife?

Here are my thoughts:

If it is a mental illness, I would say that it is independent of alignment. That leads into the followup question on how alignment works in your setting.

If behavior defines alignment, then all of the personalities would need to be balanced against one anothet and the "mean" set pf behaviors would determine alignment. Most probably Neutral on the Good/Evil axis, and probably Neutral leaning towards Chaotic on the Law/Chaos axis.

If motive, intent, or "soul/nature" detetmine alignment (alignment dictates behavior, rather than behavior dictates alignment), then I suppose the dominant personality determines alignment for the character, though they will often act outside of alignment.

If, however, it is not a mental illness, then what is it? For example, if it is a case of multiple souls inhabiting the same body naturally (not possession), then I would say each soul has their own alignment- the body is just a vessel.

If it is a case of possession, then I suppose it isn't really multiple personalities, rather multiple entities. Each entity would have their own alignment, but I would rule that prolonged exposure could corrupt the host soul/body.

Edit: Also, I am with Honest Tiefling on my initial reaction. Many professionals don't even think Dissociative Personality Disorder exists, and instead view it as a combination of sever Personality Disorders and compulsive lying.

[junlogji]

Personally, I wouldn't allow it. Firstly, the disorder is poorly understood, even by professionals. I don't mind in theory if people want to explore mental disorders or different ways of thinking, but most of the time I have seen this happen it wasn't treated with respect or knowledge. Mostly it was treated as a way to make a character 'edgy' without really knowing anything about the disorder. I mean, how many people know that the very existence of Dissociative Personality Disorder is actually still debated?

thank you for your opinion

the disorder is poorly understood and controversial but regardless of that there are people who still act in those ways

people can do it poorly but people could do it well

interestingly you are stereotyping that most gamers use the disorder as a stereotype to make characters "edgy"

Secondly, alignment restricted classes tend to be restricted for reasons. Many of these reasons wouldn't apply. I sincerely doubt that a god would grant powers to someone suffering from trauma to this degree. If they did, they're kinda a jerkbag for granting powers to go fight to someone really in need of help. Or an idiot, if they couldn't keep tabs on their holy servants long enough to figure out what is happening. Alignment restrictions for non-supernatural reasons isn't my bag to begin with.

i am afraid you did not answer my question here

there are evil and neutral deities in most settings

The third issue I have is the same reason I won't allow child PCs...WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON THE BATTLEFIELD. Not only is it really dark to send people in need of severe mental help in dangerous situations, it does begin to stretch credibility for me if people in this situation are 100% as capable of their fellows. Sure, no one is perfect and many would experience trauma, but would someone with severe issues regarding their own sense of self really be able to function in these situations?

why are you assuming that all campaigns take place primarily in the battlefield

it is dark for people like that to be in violent situations but it can and has still happens

in a setting with supernatural powers i could see them being psionically or magically gifted as sorcerers or wilders

[Red Fel]

Everything Tiefling said.

As a DM, my question is, "What is your motivation with this character?" There are several possibilities here. One, for example, is that the player is hoping to explore the horrific and humanizing effects of trauma and mental disorder on a character through a narrative medium. And that's great, but generally speaking, alignment systems are a poor choice for that. That's not a good fit for a D&D concept, for example; it's better in something like nWoD, where everyone is angsting about their respective traumas and questioning human nature and other boring stuff.

Another possibility is that the player just wants to play multiple characters. The answer to which is, "If I'm allowing you to play multiple characters, you're playing multiple characters, not one person who keeps switching out."

But the more likely answer is that this player is going to challenge the alignment system altogether. And maybe he or she won't be doing it to be deliberately disruptive, but in all likelihood, that's what the purpose is. "How can this character be Evil, when this particular personality never indulged in those horrific acts?" And the answer, again, is that the alignment system does not model this well, if at all.

Even setting aside the very real baggage that comes with psychological disorders and trauma, this simply doesn't work well. The alignment system is borked enough as is; throwing this in just further mucks it up. Play a game that better models it, if you must, but alignment systems aren't your friend here.

[cobaltstarfire]

I've had a couple of very minor instances of dissociation, and while it briefly changed my awareness or somewhat how I thought/felt about certain things, it didn't really change how I behaved, usually it's just disorienting and confusing until it passes.

I dunno how it would be different for someone who strongly experiences dissociation, but I agree with Honest Tiefling, it'd probably end in becoming hamburger for someone trying to adventure...

[junlogji]

I know it's tempting to say that having a ''mental illness is an awesome way to beat the alignment system and rules'', but it just would not work that way. It would be nice be (fake) being ''good'' most of the time, and then have the awesome excuse to be able to do any evil act and still ''be good''.

It would not work though. Even if it's ''another personality'' or whatever....it's still you. If a person is good all week, and just does a horrible act of pure evil all weekend...that person is evil. And the same is true for the personality person.

Alignment is the sum of everything about a person, so everything counts.

thank you for your opinions

i do not appreciate your false assumptions of my intentions

would an afflicted wererat character be evil if they did an evil act under the full moon against their will

Well. Alignment isn't an internal thing. It's something the planar powers that be assign you. So presumably, unless they were kind enough to split your actions between your different personalities, it would simply count all of the persons actions as your own.

Also, this is fantasy. Where people in need of severe mental help literally get reality bending powers from beyond the stars sometimes. See, Great Old One warlock.

thank you for your opinions

i thought that the power beyond the stars made them need severe mental help and not vice versa

Avoiding getting into any real-world implications, I think it depends on how multiple personalities works in your setting. It also has to deal with how alignment and the afterlife play into your setting. For example, if a person's physical body accompanies them in the afterlife, what happens if the person is destined for multiple different realms in the afterlife?

Here are my thoughts:

If it is a mental illness, I would say that it is independent of alignment. That leads into the followup question on how alignment works in your setting.

If behavior defines alignment, then all of the personalities would need to be balanced against one anothet and the "mean" set pf behaviors would determine alignment. Most probably Neutral on the Good/Evil axis, and probably Neutral leaning towards Chaotic on the Law/Chaos axis.

If motive, intent, or "soul/nature" detetmine alignment (alignment dictates behavior, rather than behavior dictates alignment), then I suppose the dominant personality determines alignment for the character, though they will often act outside of alignment.

If, however, it is not a mental illness, then what is it? For example, if it is a case of multiple souls inhabiting the same body naturally (not possession), then I would say each soul has their own alignment- the body is just a vessel.

If it is a case of possession, then I suppose it isn't really multiple personalities, rather multiple entities. Each entity would have their own alignment, but I would rule that prolonged exposure could corrupt the host soul/body.

thank you for your opinions

i do not really have any constructive criticisms

[junlogji]

Everything Tiefling said.

As a DM, my question is, "What is your motivation with this character?" There are several possibilities here. One, for example, is that the player is hoping to explore the horrific and humanizing effects of trauma and mental disorder on a character through a narrative medium. And that's great, but generally speaking, alignment systems are a poor choice for that. That's not a good fit for a D&D concept, for example; it's better in something like nWoD, where everyone is angsting about their respective traumas and questioning human nature and other boring stuff.

Another possibility is that the player just wants to play multiple characters. The answer to which is, "If I'm allowing you to play multiple characters, you're playing multiple characters, not one person who keeps switching out."

But the more likely answer is that this player is going to challenge the alignment system altogether. And maybe he or she won't be doing it to be deliberately disruptive, but in all likelihood, that's what the purpose is. "How can this character be Evil, when this particular personality never indulged in those horrific acts?" And the answer, again, is that the alignment system does not model this well, if at all.

Even setting aside the very real baggage that comes with psychological disorders and trauma, this simply doesn't work well. The alignment system is borked enough as is; throwing this in just further mucks it up. Play a game that better models it, if you must, but alignment systems aren't your friend here.

thank you for your opinions

i think that categorization systems should be subservient to the experiences of the game and not vice versa

I've had a couple of very minor instances of dissociation, and while it briefly changed my awareness or somewhat how I thought/felt about certain things, it didn't really change how I behaved, usually it's just disorienting and confusing until it passes.

I dunno how it would be different for someone who strongly experiences dissociation, but I agree with Honest Tiefling, it'd probably end in becoming hamburger for someone trying to adventure...

i do not think that this kind of comment is relevant here

[SethoMarkus]

i do not think that this kind of comment is relevant here

I'm sorry, but that may just be the most relevant comment of all. At least towards the end of contemplating the nature of such a disorder for use in a game.

[Yora]

Erratic and compulsive behavior would be chaotic. If the character is mostly acting evil he'd be chaotic evil, otherwise chaotic neutral. (Could theoretically be chaotic good, but with someone suffering with severe delusions, overwhelmingly good behavior seems unlikely.)

[Honest Tiefling]

the disorder is poorly understood and controversial but regardless of that there are people who still act in those ways

A little confused as to what you mean here. If you mean there are people who exist with these symptoms...Even that is debatable. Hence why there is concern over if the condition exists or not.

interestingly you are stereotyping that most gamers use the disorder as a stereotype to make characters "edgy"

ABSOLUTELY YES. Not arguing with that. I also stereotype people playing lesbian stripper ninjas. I also stereotype people playing 'nubile' characters. I still don't allow it.

i am afraid you did not answer my question here

there are evil and neutral deities in most settings

I think sending mentally ill people into dangerous situations is going to nudge a deity into both 'evil' and 'incompetent' territory in any game I run. It isn't even that common if it exists, why are you making someone with extreme trauma into your holy servant?

why are you assuming that all campaigns take place primarily in the battlefield

Because even if battlefield is a crummy way to put it, 100% of games I've been in are in dangerous situations where life is on the line. Even if you are not in an army, you're probably doing something someone with a lot of power doesn't like at all.

it is dark for people like that to be in violent situations but it can and has still happens

Child soldiers are a thing. Many things are a thing that I refuse to state on these forums. Doesn't mean I won't kick you out if you try to introduce it into my game if that is not appropriate to the tone or might squick people out.

in a setting with supernatural powers i could see them being psionically or magically gifted as sorcerers or wilders

If we are talking DnD terms...Not really. Firstly, insanity isn't a magical origin in published settings. Secondly, a loss of self means a loss of charisma, so you're rocking a 6 charisma sorcerer. Good job optimizing there. Also, YOU STILL HAVE A MENTAL DISORDER. FROM TRAUMA. The fact that this is a genuine impairment should still be considered a factor. It's not even a minor psychological issue.

Also, I really hate it when people pull the whole 'handicapped people have maaaaagical gifts' thing. Most of the time, it is a disorder. It sucks. Treat it with respect, including what it does and does not do, or don't do it at all. If you tell me your character has ADHD and therefore deserves a bonus to initiative or creativity, I will beat you with my book.

[Darth Ultron]

would an afflicted wererat character be evil if they did an evil act under the full moon against their will

Yes.

Again, you can't be good all month, then go crazy evil for a couple days, then go back to work Monday and be all like "I'm good."

Yes it is a ''bad deal'' and ''not fair'', but then that is why lycanthrophy is a curse and not just ''A cool ability''.

Also...if you know that at midnight your going to go crazy evil and you ''can't control it'' and you just sit around and wait for it to happen....guess what that is an evil act right there....

[Honest Tiefling]

Also...if you know that at midnight your going to go crazy evil and you ''can't control it'' and you just sit around and wait for it to happen....guess what that is an evil act right there....

Eh, I'd argue that it is no more evil then if someone mind controlled you into shoving some orphans, but I think this is a pretty valid point for potential suffers of the condition.

[Darth Ultron]

Eh, I'd argue that it is no more evil then if someone mind controlled you into shoving some orphans, but I think this is a pretty valid point for potential suffers of the condition.

Mind control can get you forgiveness. You can be good, be mind controlled to evil, and then be freed and go back to being good....assuming you were a good innocent all along. But you can't ''zap'' yourself or let yourself get ''zapped'' and do evil and then get forgiveness. It has to be real.

But that is just if the mind control is just like ''you walk down the street and get zapped''....if your say, making a deal with a demon and get zapped....

[SethoMarkus]

Mind control can get you forgiveness. You can be good, be mind controlled to evil, and then be freed and go back to being good....assuming you were a good innocent all along. But you can't ''zap'' yourself or let yourself get ''zapped'' and do evil and then get forgiveness. It has to be real.

But that is just if the mind control is just like ''you walk down the street and get zapped''....if your say, making a deal with a demon and get zapped....

It is getting off topic now, but now I am wondering about a lycantgrope oblivious of their condition? Often in folklore the afflicted retain no memories of their time while transformed. Does that naivete grant them a pardon for their actions? At least until such a time that the have adequate reason to believe they turn into a monster?

[Keltest]

It is getting off topic now, but now I am wondering about a lycantgrope oblivious of their condition? Often in folklore the afflicted retain no memories of their time while transformed. Does that naivete grant them a pardon for their actions? At least until such a time that the have adequate reason to believe they turn into a monster?

If your lycanthropy is of the "loses control of oneself to what is functionally another being" variety, I would generally treat them as separate characters with their own alignments. Ditto with magical curses or other effects that force a literal separate personality into your body somehow. If your DM is onboard, you could even give the two people two different classes that earn XP at different rates, and switch out the mental (but not physical) stats depending on who is in charge. It could be an interesting character as long as the DM sets down solid rules for determining which personality (and thus skillset) is available.

But for nonmagical stuff like trauma induced disabilities... frankly, don't even go there. You are almost certainly not going to treat it respectfully or accurately, a person disabled to that degree really has no business adventuring anyway, and it is most likely just an excuse to get around the rules in some way due to how poorly the condition is understood. Theres just too much that can go wrong for me to feel comfortable even touching the subject in a game.

[Darth Ultron]

It is getting off topic now,

Well....lycanthropy IS a type of dissociative identity disorder, right?

but now I am wondering about a lycantgrope oblivious of their condition? Often in folklore the afflicted retain no memories of their time while transformed. Does that naivete grant them a pardon for their actions? At least until such a time that the have adequate reason to believe they turn into a monster?

Again, if you are truly a helpless innocent ''for real'', then you can be forgiven. At least in the cosmic sense. The normal folks will still put you on trial for any crimes and/or burn you at the stake or such.

Most ''folklore'' does have the victim get clues that something is up...

[veti]

Long, long time ago... I was playing in a party of 1st-level misfits and hoboes. Most of us had secrets of one sort or another. Me, my character was a cleric/illusionist, but I only admitted to the 'cleric' part of that identity, and made sure to keep my illusions well under the party's radar.

Anyways: one session, it was brought to my attention that one of my fellow PCs was a gibbering wreck. As I remember it, he had gone apart from the party and was basically curled up muttering to himself and crying. So, in my capacity as a cleric, I went and talked to him. It seemed his problem was overwhelming guilt, but I couldn't make out for what - he'd always seemed a decent enough sort - so I told him that confession (to a priest, viz. me) was good for the soul, and maybe I could help him.

Once the idea had sunk in, he liked it. Out came his confession: that sometimes, he seemed to become a completely different person, one who would act quite unlike his normal honest and compassionate self. He would do - things, which I don't think were ever enumerated in detail, but anyway, he thought they were pretty bad.

I listened, then told him that he was probably cursed, quite possibly possessed, and we should seek help for him at the next decent-sized temple. I also persuaded him to share his secret with another PC we both felt we could trust - then, the reasoning went, we could both keep an eye on him, and try to restrain him if we noticed him going loco. We got a new plot hook. He took some comfort from the prospect of "getting help", and I had the satisfaction of - well, having a plan to help. It was a win all round.

The "host" personality (yes, I know that's not proper terminology, I don't care) was and remained LG, but it was crippled by guilt over the actions of its other personality. I presume, if he'd been a paladin or monk, he would have lost those abilities the moment the guilt struck.

TL;DR: dissociative identity, assuming it's a real thing, is not a superpower. It's not something you enjoy. If you have it, it is the defining feature of your life, and you will most likely devote every waking minute to trying to get cured of it.

[junlogji]

I'm sorry, but that may just be the most relevant comment of all. At least towards the end of contemplating the nature of such a disorder for use in a game.

unless they are diagnosed as such i do not care all of the evidence for the disorder indicates that it cannot come and go

Erratic and compulsive behavior would be chaotic. If the character is mostly acting evil he'd be chaotic evil, otherwise chaotic neutral. (Could theoretically be chaotic good, but with someone suffering with severe delusions, overwhelmingly good behavior seems unlikely.)

thank your for your opinion

that makes sense if you interpret chaotic that way

A little confused as to what you mean here. If you mean there are people who exist with these symptoms...Even that is debatable. Hence why there is concern over if the condition exists or not.

people who act as though they do exist

ABSOLUTELY YES. Not arguing with that. I also stereotype people playing lesbian stripper ninjas. I also stereotype people playing 'nubile' characters. I still don't allow it.

incredibly different things than what we are talking about

I think sending mentally ill people into dangerous situations is going to nudge a deity into both 'evil' and 'incompetent' territory in any game I run. It isn't even that common if it exists, why are you making someone with extreme trauma into your holy servant?

deities of madness

Because even if battlefield is a crummy way to put it, 100% of games I've been in are in dangerous situations where life is on the line. Even if you are not in an army, you're probably doing something someone with a lot of power doesn't like at all.

again just because it is bad does not mean it is not good for storytelling how could you have conflict if bad things did not happen

Child soldiers are a thing. Many things are a thing that I refuse to state on these forums. Doesn't mean I won't kick you out if you try to introduce it into my game if that is not appropriate to the tone or might squick people out.

that's your prerogative

If we are talking DnD terms...Not really. Firstly, insanity isn't a magical origin in published settings. Secondly, a loss of self means a loss of charisma, so you're rocking a 6 charisma sorcerer. Good job optimizing there. Also, YOU STILL HAVE A MENTAL DISORDER. FROM TRAUMA. The fact that this is a genuine impairment should still be considered a factor. It's not even a minor psychological issue.

wilders

is it really a loss of self

Also, I really hate it when people pull the whole 'handicapped people have maaaaagical gifts' thing. Most of the time, it is a disorder. It sucks. Treat it with respect, including what it does and does not do, or don't do it at all. If you tell me your character has ADHD and therefore deserves a bonus to initiative or creativity, I will beat you with my book.

i do not care

i think it lines up well with lovecraftian horror which i enjoy

the percy jackson series which i do not enjoy is based on a premise that some adhd people have magic abilities

maybe you are trying to make something that is purely meant as an interesting story dynamic into a ethics issue

Yes.

Again, you can't be good all month, then go crazy evil for a couple days, then go back to work Monday and be all like "I'm good."

Yes it is a ''bad deal'' and ''not fair'', but then that is why lycanthrophy is a curse and not just ''A cool ability''.

Also...if you know that at midnight your going to go crazy evil and you ''can't control it'' and you just sit around and wait for it to happen....guess what that is an evil act right there....

many afflicted lycanthropes do not know in many setting and have no input over their actions therefore they are not responsible

Eh, I'd argue that it is no more evil then if someone mind controlled you into shoving some orphans, but I think this is a pretty valid point for potential suffers of the condition.

i agree

Mind control can get you forgiveness. You can be good, be mind controlled to evil, and then be freed and go back to being good....assuming you were a good innocent all along. But you can't ''zap'' yourself or let yourself get ''zapped'' and do evil and then get forgiveness. It has to be real.

But that is just if the mind control is just like ''you walk down the street and get zapped''....if your say, making a deal with a demon and get zapped....

who said the lycanthrope let themself become one

It is getting off topic now, but now I am wondering about a lycantgrope oblivious of their condition? Often in folklore the afflicted retain no memories of their time while transformed. Does that naivete grant them a pardon for their actions? At least until such a time that the have adequate reason to believe they turn into a monster?

i think that they can not be held accountable for something outside of their control

If your lycanthropy is of the "loses control of oneself to what is functionally another being" variety, I would generally treat them as separate characters with their own alignments. Ditto with magical curses or other effects that force a literal separate personality into your body somehow. If your DM is onboard, you could even give the two people two different classes that earn XP at different rates, and switch out the mental (but not physical) stats depending on who is in charge. It could be an interesting character as long as the DM sets down solid rules for determining which personality (and thus skillset) is available.

i think the ideas for the stats is over-complicated

But for nonmagical stuff like trauma induced disabilities... frankly, don't even go there. You are almost certainly not going to treat it respectfully or accurately, a person disabled to that degree really has no business adventuring anyway, and it is most likely just an excuse to get around the rules in some way due to how poorly the condition is understood. Theres just too much that can go wrong for me to feel comfortable even touching the subject in a game.

i dislike your assumptions about the motives behind such a character

is anyone going to portray anything or anyone accurately aside from themselves

Well....lycanthropy IS a type of dissociative identity disorder, right?

in a way

Again, if you are truly a helpless innocent ''for real'', then you can be forgiven. At least in the cosmic sense. The normal folks will still put you on trial for any crimes and/or burn you at the stake or such.

in which system of fiction

Most ''folklore'' does have the victim get clues that something is up...

i wouldn't know

Long, long time ago... I was playing in a party of 1st-level misfits and hoboes. Most of us had secrets of one sort or another. Me, my character was a cleric/illusionist, but I only admitted to the 'cleric' part of that identity, and made sure to keep my illusions well under the party's radar.

Anyways: one session, it was brought to my attention that one of my fellow PCs was a gibbering wreck. As I remember it, he had gone apart from the party and was basically curled up muttering to himself and crying. So, in my capacity as a cleric, I went and talked to him. It seemed his problem was overwhelming guilt, but I couldn't make out for what - he'd always seemed a decent enough sort - so I told him that confession (to a priest, viz. me) was good for the soul, and maybe I could help him.

Once the idea had sunk in, he liked it. Out came his confession: that sometimes, he seemed to become a completely different person, one who would act quite unlike his normal honest and compassionate self. He would do - things, which I don't think were ever enumerated in detail, but anyway, he thought they were pretty bad.

I listened, then told him that he was probably cursed, quite possibly possessed, and we should seek help for him at the next decent-sized temple. I also persuaded him to share his secret with another PC we both felt we could trust - then, the reasoning went, we could both keep an eye on him, and try to restrain him if we noticed him going loco. We got a new plot hook. He took some comfort from the prospect of "getting help", and I had the satisfaction of - well, having a plan to help. It was a win all round.

The "host" personality (yes, I know that's not proper terminology, I don't care) was and remained LG, but it was crippled by guilt over the actions of its other personality. I presume, if he'd been a paladin or monk, he would have lost those abilities the moment the guilt struck.

TL;DR: dissociative identity, assuming it's a real thing, is not a superpower. It's not something you enjoy. If you have it, it is the defining feature of your life, and you will most likely devote every waking minute to trying to get cured of it.

good anecdote

[Honest Tiefling]

i do not care

i think it lines up well with lovecraftian horror which i enjoy

the percy jackson series which i do not enjoy is based on a premise that some adhd people have magic abilities

maybe you are trying to make something that is purely meant as an interesting story dynamic into a ethics issue

Maybe? I mean, I think it's going to annoy the stuffing out of your party, which is why I mention it.

I have never read the Percy Jackson books. Maybe they did it. Maybe they didn't. But that doesn't mean I think the approach is a good one, nor one I would recommend.

However, I don't...Really think your approach is Lovecraftian. Trauma is an aspect of horror...But if you are benefiting or not being heavily impaired by the trauma, that's sorta taking away the horror, isn't it? It's like getting your arm chopped off and shrugging it off. Appropriate for some games, but I wouldn't really call it lovecraftian or horror, just...Silly. That's like wandering up to Cthulhu and kicking him in the tentacles. The insanity isn't exactly stopping you, just making you stronger in a way, especially if you gain class levels from being mentally ill.

i dislike your assumptions about the motives behind such a character

is anyone going to portray anything or anyone accurately aside from themselves

Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't matter, as long as the intention is respect and enjoyment for others. Treating a mental illness as a superpower is likely going to be neither. Hence why Lesbian Stripper Ninjas get banned, because it usually doesn't involved anything resembling respect and it's creepy. (Also, women in my groups can throw better then I can dodge.)

[cobaltstarfire]

unless they are diagnosed as such i do not care all of the evidence for the disorder indicates that it cannot come and go

I never said I had the disorder, I said I have experienced dissociation on several occasions, and offered my experience on how it felt. It was legitimate enough of a problem that I was taken off of the medication I was on at the time. Like I said, I don't know how it may compare with someone who has a serious problem with disassociation. I felt it was relevant to the discussion, because it never changed the way I outwardly behaved other than becoming disoriented.

[icefractal]

It sounds like what you really want is "Cinematic MPD". Which could even fairly easily exist in D&D, what with possession, soul-shenanigans, psychic stuff, etc.

But focusing on a RL condition like DID just for the entertainment value comes off a bit tacky/insensitive. Like debating the merits of having AIDS-infected berserkers on the front line of your fantasy army to scare opposing forces would. (I'm saying not to do that, just to clarify for everyone).


As far as the more general question of how actions taken while not in your correct state of mind count toward alignment. For 3E specifically -

Based on several things in the books, I believe that, as far as the default goes:
1) Alignment is an external tag assigned by some cosmic machinery.
2) The machinery does not automatically correct for factors like being in a different state on mind, unless the difference involves a separate soul (possession), or possibly direct mind control (this one is treated inconsistently in different books).
3) The Atonement spell triggers an alignment verification check on the target, which clears up those kind of errors.
4) Atonement also can pull in a deity to intercede and change even correctly-verified alignment (if the XP cost is paid), but it doesn't always do this.

[junlogji]

Maybe? I mean, I think it's going to annoy the stuffing out of your party, which is why I mention it.

I have never read the Percy Jackson books. Maybe they did it. Maybe they didn't. But that doesn't mean I think the approach is a good one, nor one I would recommend.

However, I don't...Really think your approach is Lovecraftian. Trauma is an aspect of horror...But if you are benefiting or not being heavily impaired by the trauma, that's sorta taking away the horror, isn't it? It's like getting your arm chopped off and shrugging it off. Appropriate for some games, but I wouldn't really call it lovecraftian or horror, just...Silly. That's like wandering up to Cthulhu and kicking him in the tentacles. The insanity isn't exactly stopping you, just making you stronger in a way, especially if you gain class levels from being mentally ill.

Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't matter, as long as the intention is respect and enjoyment for others. Treating a mental illness as a superpower is likely going to be neither. Hence why Lesbian Stripper Ninjas get banned, because it usually doesn't involved anything resembling respect and it's creepy. (Also, women in my groups can throw better then I can dodge.)

where are you getting this notion that i think the disorder is a superpower

It sounds like what you really want is "Cinematic MPD". Which could even fairly easily exist in D&D, what with possession, soul-shenanigans, psychic stuff, etc.

But focusing on a RL condition like DID just for the entertainment value comes off a bit tacky/insensitive. Like debating the merits of having AIDS-infected berserkers on the front line of your fantasy army to scare opposing forces would. (I'm saying not to do that, just to clarify for everyone).


As far as the more general question of how actions taken while not in your correct state of mind count toward alignment. For 3E specifically -

Based on several things in the books, I believe that, as far as the default goes:
1) Alignment is an external tag assigned by some cosmic machinery.
2) The machinery does not automatically correct for factors like being in a different state on mind, unless the difference involves a separate soul (possession), or possibly direct mind control (this one is treated inconsistently in different books).
3) The Atonement spell triggers an alignment verification check on the target, which clears up those kind of errors.
4) Atonement also can pull in a deity to intercede and change even correctly-verified alignment (if the XP cost is paid), but it doesn't always do this.

i am well aware of what the disorder is as opposed to how cinema tends to portray it

there is a difference between aiding a disorder or disease to a character because you think it can contribute to the idea of a character and adding it to a character to make a insensitive joke or stereotype

[The Vanishing Hitchhiker]

I think sending mentally ill people into dangerous situations is going to nudge a deity into both 'evil' and 'incompetent' territory in any game I run. It isn't even that common if it exists, why are you making someone with extreme trauma into your holy servant?

I gotta argue with this point real quick: what about mentally ill people who are already in dangerous situations, trying to escape further trauma? What kind of deity would refuse granting divine gifts to someone in need?

Anyway, mechanically, using multiple alignments seems like such an obvious attempt to exploit that disallowing it makes a lot of sense, or at least prevents a lot of complications. Off the top of my head, I'd average out the total effect of all those alignments: chaotic neutral, if there's no way to predict what identity will be in control when, and how a switch could occur. If it's more predictable than that, or the different identities have less disparate personalities (say, they're all good or neutral), adjust that average alignment accordingly. But use that same alignment for the whole shebang. Might be a gross simplification, and won't work in all instances, but that's game mechanics for ya.

[Mechalich]

d20 does not play well with realistic depictions of mental illness. For one reason, because alignment doesn't consider brain chemistry and therefore anyone with severe debilitating mental effects gets shunted into chaotic neutral. For another reason, because much mental illnesses can be magically cured. Negative mental conditions exist: there are spells like feeblemind and insanity that can impose them, and there are also spells like Heal and Restoration that can remove them. That totally changes the implications of severe mental illness in the world.

Additionally, characters with a severe mental illness who are abiding by the rules correctly are probably representing that through an extremely low wisdom score - meaning something below 6. That is a brutal limitation in actual play.

[Mastikator]

As a DM:
Having multiple personalities each with their own alignment would break the whole afterlife thing. For that reason alone I'd say alignment comes from the soul moreso than the mind and anything that contradicts that is banned.

As a player:
I think I would find it confusing and annoying if another player did this, it's enough if you play as one compelling character.

[BarbieTheRPG]

Cool idea. Obviously each persona should have his/her/its own alignment as it indicates how the character would normally behave. Different behavior means different alignment. What's really crucial is that the other players and GM should be okay with it.

On alignment-restricted classes, say a LG Paladin has a LE persona that shows up when he/she/it is stressed. Depending on the god maybe certain abilities are lost when the maligned persona shows? Prevents exploitation while allowing character exploration. Some of the best fiction involves DID (Fight Club is a classic example).

Run with it but again make sure the group is comfortable with the idea.

[Reboot]

It sounds like what you really want is "Cinematic MPD". Which could even fairly easily exist in D&D, what with possession, soul-shenanigans, psychic stuff, etc.

Yeah. I think if you REALLY want to do this, the best method is some sort of possession, with two explicitly separate people stuck in one body (i.e., one or both having been born in an entirely separate body from the shared body and ending up jammed into that body together somehow), rather than anything resembling RL mental illness.