Warrior of the Dancing Chain Fighter Archetype [PEACH]

[Llama513]

What I am thinking is to design a Fighter based around emulating the fighting Style of the Chain Devil,

my thought for the 3rd level ability is to give them a special chain that they are considered to be proficient with, it has the reach and two-handed properties, and starts out dealing 2d4 slashing damage, this will increase to 2d6 at 10th.

6th level they learn to use the chain like a shield by wrapping it around their arm, giving them a +2 AC while wielding the chain.

At 10th level they gain the ability grapple with the chain while raging, mechanically it will work like this, if you hit a target you can choose to grapple them, they must make a Athletics or Acrobatics Check, DC 15, or be grappled. Until this grapple ends the target takes 2d6 piercing damage at the start of each of its turns. You can only grapple one person in this way, while you have a person grappled in this way you can use one of your attacks to pull the chain back, this releases them from the grapple, as part of this you make an attack roll if it hits you deal your 2d6 slashing damage, if this attack misses the chain simply comes back to your hand (the idea being to grapple your target with your last attack, then on your next turn yank the chain off of them and allowing you to take the rest of your attack and then re-grapple).

At 15th level you can use your action to make an attack against every target in your weapons range (as the whirlwind ability, except 10ft)

At 18th level, you have built another hook into the back end of the chain, you can unwrap the other half of the chain from your arm, losing the +2 to your AC, and use this end of the chain exactly as you would you the other end. You are considered to be wielding a light weapon in your offhand for the purposes of two weapon fighting while you use your chain in this way (you can use your bonus action to make an attack with the other end of the chain, even if you don't have the Dual wielder feat).

[Llama513]

I made a Homebrewery for this archetype, with a unique magic weapon included, the link to the homebrewery is here.

[JNAProductions]

So it's more powerful than any other subclass, giving the best of either GWF and S&B, or GWF and TWF, and comes with what downsides?

Edit: Oh, and reach. Can't forget reach.

[Llama513]

Should I leave the damage at 2d4, and as for the two weapon fighting part of it, that isn't until 18th level.

As for the sword and board style would it be better if I made it a reaction to increase the AC against a single attack, in which case I would probably go with a +4 to AC against that attack

[JNAProductions]

But you still get GWF, S&B, and reach as early as 7th level. Even at -2 damage relative to a Greatsword, you net +2 AC and reach. Compared to a S&B fighter, you're at -1.5 damage (slightly less, actually, since GWF can apply) but gain reach, and Dueling is generally considered the best fighting style.

[Llama513]

But you still get GWF, S&B, and reach as early as 7th level. Even at -2 damage relative to a Greatsword, you net +2 AC and reach. Compared to a S&B fighter, you're at -1.5 damage (slightly less, actually, since GWF can apply) but gain reach, and Dueling is generally considered the best fighting style.

You can't use Dueling, you are holding the weapon in both hands, as for the damage would making it be 1d8 be better, or if I changed it to a reaction against one attack to increase your AC at 7th would I be able to leave the damage where it is

[JNAProductions]

I know-the point is, you're pretty much on par, if not better than, dueling.

And yes, that would be better, but overall, I think the concept is kinda flawed. Just using one weapon to the exclusion of others is not a unique subclass thing-it's something pretty much every fighter does.

[Llama513]

You are wielding a unique weapon, that creates a unique fighting style that use use that is only possible with that weapon, thus the grapple that you get at 10th, and access to whirlwind, the archetype is built around taking full advantage of your unique weapon, and considering that the chain is not a weapon that normally exists, I feel like creating an archetype around learning to fight with one and becoming a master of the style that rises from the unique properties of the weapon, constitutes a rather interesting archetype and captures the essence of what a fighter is, just look at arcane archer, it is built around using exclusively a bow, and getting the most out of that style possible

[JNAProductions]

I suppose. I won't stop you, but I think this would work better as a unique item and perhaps a feat.

[Llama513]

I suppose. I won't stop you, but I think this would work better as a unique item and perhaps a feat.

That would be insanely unbalanced, to be able to do everything that is done by this class by simply grabbing a weapon and a feat, if did that you could literally do everything that this archetype does at level 1 as a variant human, that is insanely powerful and unabalanced.

For balance purposes this has to be a archetype, or a feat chain, which we don't do in 5e, as for the archetype matching dueling, isn't that a good thing, since I am bringing the fighting styles more in line with each other, I am going to make the damage stay at 2d4, as it has a lower maximum damage than all weapons with reach or two weapon fighting, not including the whip. And as you pointed out, its average damage allows it to be on par with dueleing, which I think is a good thing, since the fighting style created by this archetype matches another fighting style, and if that is what the archetype as it is now does, I don't see why you have an issue with it. Since by your own words I matched what other fighters can do.

[JNAProductions]

Or perhaps give less abilities? What is essential to this, in your mind?

[Llama513]

Or perhaps give less abilities? What is essential to this, in your mind?

All of the abilities, that's why they are there, and in order to be a proper fighter Archetype I can't drop any abilities, it has to have four, and there is no ability that could be split into two parts, so if I removed anything it would be replaced by another ability

[GalacticAxekick]

All of the abilities, that's why they are there, and in order to be a proper fighter Archetype I can't drop any abilities, it has to have four, and there is no ability that could be split into two parts, so if I removed anything it would be replaced by another ability

I think what JNA is saying is that you could make this into an item or feat if you gave less abilities. What's required in order to be a Fighter archetype is no concern when you set aside the goal to create a Fighter archetype and approach the use of a chain in combat from another angle.

The item/feat approach has the added benefit of flexibility. An archetype defined by the weapon it uses is limited to using that weapon (notice that no subclasses are defined by their equipment for precisely this reason?), while a weapon or feat alone could be picked up by anyone and integrated into a variety of builds and character concepts (which is why no weapons are class-specific and almost all weapon features come as feats rather than class features)

[Llama513]

I think what JNA is saying is that you could make this into an item or feat if you gave less abilities. What's required in order to be a Fighter archetype is no concern when you set aside the goal to create a Fighter archetype and approach the use of a chain in combat from another angle.

The item/feat approach has the added benefit of flexibility. An archetype defined by the weapon it uses is limited to using that weapon (notice that no subclasses are defined by their equipment for precisely this reason?), while a weapon or feat alone could be picked up by anyone and integrated into a variety of builds and character concepts (which is why no weapons are class-specific and almost all weapon features come as feats rather than class features)

I see, I have no problem with making the base chain, an item for everyone, its the grapple and 18th level abilitythat I don't know about givong to everyone, I misunderstood what JNA was saying, my bad.

With that said I do feel like this arvhetype falls imto a similar category as arcane arcger, in that it focuses on one weapon but gets a lot of different uses out of that one weapon.

[GalacticAxekick]

I see, I have no problem with making the base chain, an item for everyone, its the grapple and 18th level ability that I don't know about giving to everyone, I misunderstood what JNA was saying, my bad.

With that said I do feel like this arvhetype falls imto a similar category as arcane arcger, in that it focuses on one weapon but gets a lot of different uses out of that one weapon.

Well let's have a look.

my thought for the 3rd level ability is to give them a special chain that they are considered to be proficient with, it has the reach and two-handed properties, and starts out dealing 2d4 slashing damage, this will increase to 2d6 at 10th.

We have the whip as a martial weapon: 1d6, reach, finesse. Being two-handed is a penalty, so we could raise the damage die of the chain in relative (1d8), and for lack of finesse we could raise it further (1d10).

Incidentally, this matches the pike, halberd and glaive: other two-handed reach weapons! Matching the PHB is good indicator that your homebrew is balanced, so I think 1d10 is the damage we want.

And of course, no upgraded damage at 10th level. That's totally unnecessary as a Fighter archetype feature, given the damage they already deal, and inconceivable for an item trait.

6th level they learn to use the chain like a shield by wrapping it around their arm, giving them a +2 AC while wielding the chain.

Not much to change here! With the chain's inherent properties, as an item, settled and balanced, this is going to be a feat. I would also make it a bonus action, firstly so the chain isn't truly equal to a legitimate shield, which would be unbalanced mechanically and silly thematically, and secondly so that it can compete with other bonus actions (hint hint nudge nudge) and give the player meaningful decisions to make.

When you are equipped with a chain (or maybe any two-handed weapon? or any flexile weapon?), you may use a bonus action to gain +2 AC until the start of your next turn.

At 10th level they gain the ability grapple with the chain while raging, mechanically it will work like this, if you hit a target you can choose to grapple them, they must make a Athletics or Acrobatics Check, DC 15, or be grappled. Until this grapple ends the target takes 2d6 piercing damage at the start of each of its turns. You can only grapple one person in this way, while you have a person grappled in this way you can use one of your attacks to pull the chain back, this releases them from the grapple, as part of this you make an attack roll if it hits you deal your 2d6 slashing damage, if this attack misses the chain simply comes back to your hand (the idea being to grapple your target with your last attack, then on your next turn yank the chain off of them and allowing you to take the rest of your attack and then re-grapple).

This deals the same damage as your normal attack and grapples your foe and deals DoT and allows you to forcibly move your enemy (while attacking them!) at no cost of resources, uses-per-rest, or action economy. Even as a class feature, this is far too powerful, and totally replaces the player's normal attack (rather than offering an alternative, as a feature should). It'll need some touch-ups before it can become a feat.

Luckily, we have a clear model for this! The net weapon already serves roughly the same purpose. Using its properties as a model, we can write this feat out and know it's not overpowered:

A Large or smaller creature hit by a net your chain is may be restrained until it is freed. A net has no effect on creatures that are formless, or creatures that are Huge or larger. A creature can use its action to make a DC 10 Strength check, freeing itself or another creature within its reach on a success. Dealing 5 slashing damage to the net (AC 10) also frees the creature without harming it, ending the effect and destroying the net. You may use an attack on your next turn to pull a creature restrained by your chain up to 10 feet nearer to you.

When you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to attack restrain with a net your weapon, you can make only one attack regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.

At 15th level you can use your action to make an attack against every target in your weapons range (as the whirlwind ability, except 10ft)

I'd throw this out entirely. No class feature should be available through a item or feat. In fact, it's best to avoid making class features accessible through other classes, since they begin stepping on one anothers' toes and potentially hurting multiclass options.

At 18th level, you have built another hook into the back end of the chain, you can unwrap the other half of the chain from your arm, losing the +2 to your AC, and use this end of the chain exactly as you would you the other end. You are considered to be wielding a light weapon in your offhand for the purposes of two weapon fighting while you use your chain in this way (you can use your bonus action to make an attack with the other end of the chain, even if you don't have the Dual wielder feat).

Losing the +2 to your AC? More like costing the bonus action you would've used to gain +2 AC!

You may engage in two-weapon fighting using your chain as though it were two light weapons rather than one two-handed weapon.

Boom!

All of these feats could even be rolled into one: two options for what to do with your bonus action (offense and defense!) and a new

That said, this isn't a terribly interesting feature. It's pure damage, rather than a new way to deal damage that affects the user's placestyle. What's more, it's kinda strong! There's a reason no light weapons deal more than 1d6 damage, and there's a reason the strongest weapons you can two-weapon fight with deal 1d8. This was catastrophically overpowered when you had it dealing 2d6, and it's still too strong dealing 1d10.

Instead of raw damage, I'd try to grant new ways to deal damage, or forgetting damage entirely. How about extending the chain's reach until the start of your next turn as a bonus action? 15 foot reach! How about shoving/disarming any target the chain can reach, and shoving/disarming as an opportunity attack?

[Llama513]

Well let's have a look.

We have the whip as a martial weapon: 1d6, reach, finesse. Being two-handed is a penalty, so we could raise the damage die of th flail in relative (1d8), and for lack of finesse we could raise it further (1d10).

Incidentally, this matches the pike, halberd and glaive: other two-handed reach weapons! Matching the PHB is good indicator that your homebrew is balanced, so I think 1d10 is the damage we want.

And of course, no upgraded damage at 10th level. That's totally unnecessary as a Fighter archetype feature, given the damage tools they already have, and inconceivable for an item trait.

Not much to change here! With the chain's inherent properties, as an item, settled and balanced, this is going to be a feat. I would also make it a bonus action, firstly so the chain isn't truly equal to a legitimate shield, secondly so that it can compete with other bonus actions (hint hint nudge nudge) and give the player meaningful decisions to make.

When you are equipped with a chain (or maybe any two-handed weapon? or any flexile weapon?), you may use a bonus action to gain +2 AC until the start of your next turn.

This deals the same damage as your normal attack and grapples your foe and deals DoT and allows you to forcibly move your enemy (while attacking them!) at no cost of resources, uses-per-rest, or action economy. Even as a class feature, this is far too powerful, and totally replaces the player's normal attack (rather than offering an alternative, as a feature should). It'll need some touch-ups before it can become a feat.

Luckily, we have a clear model for this! The net weapon already serves roughly the same purpose. Using its properties as a model, we can write this feat out and know it's not overpowered:

A Large or smaller creature hit by a net your chain is restrained until it is freed. A net has no effect on creatures that are formless, or creatures that are Huge or larger. A creature can use its action to make a DC 10 Strength check, freeing itself or another creature within its reach on a success. Dealing 5 slashing damage to the net (AC 10) also frees the creature without harming it, ending the effect and destroying the net. You may use an attack on your next turn to pull a creature restrained by your chain up to 10 feet nearer to you.

When you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to attack restrain with a net your weapon, you can make only one attack regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.

I'd throw this out entirely. No class feature should be available through a item or feat. In fact, it's best to avoid making class features accessible through other classes, since they begin stepping on one anothers' toes and potentially hurting multiclass options.

Losing the +2 to your AC? More like costing the bonus action you would've used to gain +2 AC!

You may engage in two-weapon fighting using your chain as though it were two light weapons rather than one two-handed weapon.

Boom!

All of these feats could even be rolled into one: two options for what to do with your bonus action (offense and defense!) and a new

That said, this isn't a terribly interesting feature. It's pure damage, rather than a new way to deal damage that affects the user's placestyle. What's more, it's kinda strong! There's a reason no light weapons deal more than 1d6 damage, and there's a reason the strongest weapons you can two-weapon fight with deal 1d8. This was catastrophically overpowered when you had it dealing 2d6, and it's still too strong dealing 1d10.

Instead of raw damage, I'd try to grant new ways to deal damage, or forgetting damage entirely. How about extending the chain's reach until the start of your next turn as a bonus action? 15 foot reach! How about shoving/disarming any target the chain can reach, and shoving/disarming as an opportunity attack?

Thank you very much, for pointing out how to make that work, I think what I am going to go with is two feats, one called chain master which will give you the defensive bonus action of the +2 AC, and the bonus action for reach, I don't want to mess with disarm as that steps on battlemaster's toes. And the second will be called Lashing Grapple, which lets you make the grapple as you described with both the chain and whip.

I am having the AC and reach apply to just the Chain, as I don't feel a whip would give enough protection for the AC option to make sense, and it has a set length, versus a chain where you have extra material to work with for the reach.

I will make the Homebrewery for this tomorrow when I have time, once again thank you very much

[Ziegander]

I don't understand the flak. Yeah, the grapple bit is somewhat strong, but as class features for a Fighter archetype, I don't see anything wrong with a 2d4/1d10 two-handed reach weapon that grants +2 AC, whirlwind attack, improved grappling, and okay two-weapon fighting. These are class features. It's getting this stuff instead of spellcasting. I'm pretty sure everything's going to be okay.

[GalacticAxekick]

I don't understand the flak. Yeah, the grapple bit is somewhat strong, but as class features for a Fighter archetype, I don't see anything wrong with a 2d4/1d10 two-handed reach weapon that grants +2 AC, whirlwind attack, improved grappling, and okay two-weapon fighting. These are class features. It's getting this stuff instead of spellcasting. I'm pretty sure everything's going to be okay.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.

The problem is that there is no downside. Two-handed builds are typically optimized for Str damage or reach. Sword-and-board builds are optimized for defense. Two-weapon-fighting builds are typically optimized for Dex damage or crowd control.

This subclass is better than or equal to all of the above. The damage of a maul (with bonus damage turnwise, speed reduction and forced movement), the reach of a pike (with whirlwind attack to control space), the defense of a shield and the crowd control of TWF is mechanically and thematically ridiculous. Why, in any setting, would any fighter use any other weapon if chains are so much better at everything?

And keep in mind, the Fighter isn't getting these features "instead of spellcasting". They're getting these features instead of exploration. They're getting these features instead of interaction. They're getting these features instead of utilities.

Spellcasting can serve to deal and mitigate damage, sure, but also to impose status effects, to assist exploration and to assist social interaction. All Fighters get extra attacks, Action Surge, Second Wind, and a slew of weapon/armour proficiencies for damage dealing/mitigation, so what they desperately need from a subclass is adventuring tools, social tools and combat tools alternative to attacking.

In other words, while the Champion and Battle Master are gaining explorative, social and utility features, the Chain Master is gaining far reaching, massive damage and robust defenses. This makes the Chain Master stronger than the other archetypes, in combat, and devoid of tools for outside of combat.

[Llama513]

I am keeping it as an archetype, that is built around the chain or whip, the 10th level ability will be letting you use a whip or chain like Indiana Jones, the 15th Level will be a bonus action once per short rest to make an attack that drags your opponent closer to you, they get a strength save against this affect, and the 18th level will be having the grapple deal the damage on their turn while they are restrained, increasing the DC to that of a battlemaster maneuver, allowing the raking damage for ending the grapple, but keeping the if you initiate the grapple you only get the grapple from earlier.

I will then make the Chain a weapon available to all classes proficient with martial weapons, and have this archetype be the master of flexible weapons,
what do you think about that, as if I went with the feats, I don't see why a fighter would use anyother weapon because the feats make the chain better than anyother weapon, because you either get a free +2 to AC or free Reach, as if you a using the greatweapon style you aren't really using your bonus action for anything else, thus keeping these abilities as Archetype features I feel is better, but now the Archetype is not restricted to one weapon, you can use the Chain and Great Weapon, or you can use a whip, and do who knows what

The changes to the 3rd and 7th level feature, giving them chain master (with whip and chain), and lashing grapple have been made on the homebrewery

[GalacticAxekick]

the 10th level ability will be letting you use a whip or chain like Indiana Jones

Sounds good!

the 15th Level will be a bonus action once per short rest to make an attack that drags your opponent closer to you, they get a strength save against this affect

Limiting it per short rest denies the fighter reliable utilities in combat. I'd give it unlimited uses, but make it an action or attack.

Alternatively, I'd make the net-like restraint a prerequisite before you may pull someone with your bonus action. I'd give this bonus action no limitations per rest, and I wouldn't allow the target to make a save (they're already making saves against the restraint itself)

and the 18th level will be having the grapple deal the damage on their turn while they are restrained...

Fine, if the grapple is an action. Not-so-fine if it's an attack or bonus action, unlimited per rest.

...increasing the DC to that of a battlemaster maneuver...

This should've been the DC in the first place

...allowing the raking damage for ending the grapple...

Unnecessary, I feel, but alright.

...but keeping the if you initiate the grapple you only get the grapple from earlier.

not sure what you mean here

I will then make the Chain a weapon available to all classes proficient with martial weapons, and have this archetype be the master of flexible weapons,

what do you think about that, as if I went with the feats, I don't see why a fighter would use anyother weapon because the feats make the chain better than anyother weapon, because you either get a free +2 to AC or free Reach, as if you a using the greatweapon style you aren't really using your bonus action for anything else, thus keeping these abilities as Archetype features I feel is better, but now the Archetype is not restricted to one weapon, you can use the Chain and Great Weapon, or you can use a whip, and do who knows what

A chain feat competes with other fears and ASIs. If a chain and a pike are balanced against one another, a chain + GWF + chain feat is balanced against pike + GWF + polearm master/ASI.

Making those chain features class features means they come in addition to feat/ASIs, which can potentially make the class quite powerful if the class isn't receiving enough utility/exploration/social features.

Also, I would still consider this archetype very restricted. Battle Masters, Champions and Eldritch Knights can comfortably use any weapon. I'd want the same for all Fighter archetypes: the arcane archer and sharpshooter UA are archetypes I disagree with for this same reason.

The changes to the 3rd and 7th level feature, giving them chain master (with whip and chain), and lashing grapple have been made on the homebrewery

I'm on mobile, so I'll have a look at these later. But remember that all Fighter archetypes get non-combat features at 7th level.

[Llama513]

I'm on mobile myself, I wasn't planning, to give it a feat, but i could make something like polearm master, the other thing that comes to mind to make the class less restrictive is to create a few new weapons, or a new weapon property, that allows the base weapons to work like a whip like ivy's whip sword in soul calibur or something like that, I could make that part of thier 3rd level feature, you turn a base weapon into a weapon to fit your fighting style

[GalacticAxekick]

I'm on mobile myself, I wasn't planning, to give it a feat, but i could make something like polearm master, the other thing that comes to mind to make the class less restrictive is to create a few new weapons, or a new weapon property, that allows the base weapons to work like a whip like ivy's whip sword in soul calibur or something like that, I could make that part of thier 3rd level feature, you turn a base weapon into a weapon to fit your fighting style

I tend to shy away from fantastic weapons, though, so I might look into real flexile weapons: the flail, the rope dagger and the flying claw.

Adding such weapons is not an ideal solution imo, because it cannot give the same versatility as a full list of martial weapons to the subclass, and it cannot set all martial classes on even footing with flexile weapons. But its better than having just the whip.

[Llama513]

My thought is to make a segmented weapon property that can be added to weapons that are not two handed, or reach weapons, it allows you as a bonus action to split your weapon into segments attached by a chain or wire, this grants weapon reach, however you have disadvantage against creatures within 5ft of you while your weapon is extended in this way, it is a bonus action to collapse your weapon back to normal, adding this property costs 20 gold.

I would make part of the 3rd level feature that a warrior of the dancing chain can segment a weapon given a day and 10 gold, thus guving them access to most of the martial weapons, while giving everyone a unique new mechanic to work with.

[GalacticAxekick]

My thought is to make a segmented weapon property that can be added to weapons that are not two handed, or reach weapons, it allows you as a bonus action to split your weapon into segments attached by a chain or wire, this grants weapon reach, however you have disadvantage against creatures within 5ft of you while your weapon is extended in this way, it is a bonus action to collapse your weapon back to normal, adding this property costs 20 gold.

I would make part of the 3rd level feature that a warrior of the dancing chain can segment a weapon given a day and 10 gold, thus guving them access to most of the martial weapons, while giving everyone a unique new mechanic to work with.

I suppose this works! It's not my style, and it doesn't help the WotDC use ranged weapons, but it's balanced and applicable to all melee weapons at least.

[Llama513]

I wasnt planning on having it affect the two handed weapons, or the whip, but if you think it would be fine balance wise i can have it affect all melee weapons

[GalacticAxekick]

I wasnt planning on having it affect the two handed weapons, or the whip, but if you think it would be fine balance wise i can have it affect all melee weapons

It should be alright. The improved reach is a strong buff, but having Disadvantage against targets within your normal reach means a foe who closes in on you has the upper hand, and you'll need to step away and provoke an OA every time turn just to negate them stepping back into close range.

[Llama513]

It should be alright. The improved reach is a strong buff, but having Disadvantage against targets within your normal reach means a foe who closes in on you has the upper hand, and you'll need to step away and provoke an OA every time turn just to negate them stepping back into close range.

I either forgot to type it in or you just missed it, but you can return the weapon to normal with a bonus action, if that changes your thoughts about giving it to the two-handed and reach weapons, let me know if not I'll have it affect all weapons

[Arkhios]

When I first checked out the homebrewery document, all else looked fine, except for the base damage of the unique weapon (was 1d6+1d4). Now I can't seem to find its details anywhere, while the archetype features are still referring to it. Did you forget something in your editing process, maybe?

[Llama513]

When I first checked out the homebrewery document, all else looked fine, except for the base damage of the unique weapon (was 1d6+1d4). Now I can't seem to find its details anywhere, while the archetype features are still referring to it. Did you forget something in your editing process, maybe?

Still finishing it up, I have lab today so I got a bit of editing done during break, but its not done, I am going to be giving the stats of the weapon as well as the segmented property later.

[GalacticAxekick]

I either forgot to type it in or you just missed it, but you can return the weapon to normal with a bonus action, if that changes your thoughts about giving it to the two-handed and reach weapons, let me know if not I'll have it affect all weapons

I'd overlooked that. In this case, there us virtually no downside, and extending weapons are strictly better than conventional weapons, two-handed or not.