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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2010

    Default Rogueish Archetype: Master of Daggers [WIP]

    Basically the Rogue's version of Battlemaster, a subclass I love playing and seeing played. I'm trying to make it feel distinctly Rogueish by making "dirtier" maneuvers like bleeds/blinds/stuns, and also by pushing the dagger-throwing Rogue trope which I felt could use a little boost in 5e.

    "Master Thrower" is there because thrown daggers are counted as melee weapons even when thrown which means you can't get full value out of feats like Sharpshooter and other multiclass abilities which is a silly and unnecessary restriction.

    This is just my first draft. I'd love input balancing it, but also coming up with flavorful maneuvers and class abilities.



    Roguish Archetype: Master of Daggers
    Daggers are a great companion to any rogue: light, unobtrusive, and easily concealed, they are the perfect tool for many adventures, from exploring a dungeon to sneakily assassinating a target. Some rogues elevate their skill with their trusty weapon further, following the path of the invisible blade. Their training and techniques with daggers make them ust as lethal as any well-armed fighter.

    Combat Superiority
    When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain a set of abilities that are fueled by special dice called superiority dice.
    Maneuvers. You learn three maneuvers of your choice, which are detailed under “Maneuvers” below. Many maneuvers enhance an attack in some way. You can use only one maneuver per attack.
    You learn two additional maneuvers of your choice at 7th, 10th, and 15th level. Each time you learn new maneuvers, you can also replace one maneuver you know with a different one.
    Superiority Dice. You have four superiority dice, which are d8s. A superiority dice is expended when you use it. You regain all of your expended superiority dice when you finish a short or long rest.
    You gain another superiority dice at 7th level and one more at 15th level.
    Saving Throws. Some of your maneuvers require your target to make a saving throw to resist the maneuver’s effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows:
    Maneuver save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your strength or Dexterity modifier (your choice)

    Master Thrower
    Starting at 3rd level, your thrown dagger attacks qualify as both melee and ranged weapons for the purposes of abilities and feats.

    Something Utility
    At 3rd level, you also get something else, which has use outside of purely combat scenarios. It could be two proficiencies or something more interesting. Please tell me your ideas.

    Something Combat/Utility
    Starting at 9th level, you get something else, which may or may not have combat applications. Please tell me your ideas.

    Something Combat/Utility
    At 13rd level, you get something else, which may or may not have combat applications. Please tell me your ideas.

    Something Big + Combat
    At 17th level, you get a sweet rogue capstone. Please tell me your ideas.

    Maneuvers
    The maneuvers are presented in alphabetical order.
    Blinding Strike. When you hit a creature with a dagger, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to blind the target. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be blinded until the end of your next turn.
    Bleeding Strike. When you hit a creature with a dagger attack, you can expend one superiority die to add it to the damage roll. If the target is a creature other than an undead or a construct, it must succeed on a Constitution save throw or lose hit points equal to your superiority die at the start of each of its turns. Any creature can take an action to stanch the wound with a successful Wisdom (Medicine) check. The wound also closes if the target receives magical healing.
    Disarming Attack. When you hit a creature with a dagger, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to disarm the target, forcing it to drop one item of your choice that it’s holding. You add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll, and the target must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, it drops the object you choose. The object lands at its feet.
    Disorienting Attack. When you damage a creature with a dagger attack, you can expend on superiority die to add it to the damage roll. You can use this ability after rolling damage. If the attack causes the target to make a Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration, it has disadvantage on that save.
    Distracting Strike. When you hit a creature with a dagger, you can expend one superiority die to distract the creature, givie your allies an opening. You add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll. The next attack roll against the target by an attacker other than you has advantage if the attack is made before the start of your next turn.
    Evasive Footwork. When you move, you can expend one superiority die, rolling the die and adding the number rolled to your AC until you stop moving.
    Goading Attack. When you hit a creature with a dagger attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to goad the target into attacking you. You add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll, and the target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the target has disadvantage on all attack rolls against targets other than you until the end of your next turn.
    Kidney Shot. When you hit a creature with a dagger attack, you can expend two superiority dice to attempt to stun the creature. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of your next turn.
    Pinning Shot. When you hit a creature that is adjacent to a solid surface with a ranged dagger attack, you may expend one superiority die to attempt to pin the creature down. You add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll, and if the target is Large or smaller, it must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, the target’s speed is reduced to 0 until the end of your next turn.
    Precision Attack. When you make a dagger attack roll against a creature, you can expend one superiority die to add it to the roll. You can use this maneuver before or after making the attack roll, but before any effects of the attack are applied.
    Ricochet Shot. When you hit a creature with a ranged dagger attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to damage another creature with the same attack. Choose another creature within 5 feet of the original target. If the original attack roll would hit the second creature, it takes damage equal to the number you roll on your superiority die. The damage is of the same type dealt by the original attack.
    Riposte. When a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction and expend one superiority die to make a melee dagger attack against the creature. If you hit, you add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: Rogueish Archetype: Master of Daggers [WIP]

    I too once tilted at the "Dagger Master" Rogue windmill... ; ) The Battlemaster approach is certainly interesting!

    I'll dig into the maneuvers here in a bit, but until then...

    Here's the features from my attempt (the Cutter). Feel free to use/revise/discard at will. I certainly make no claims as to the balance of any of the features as there has never been any playtesting (or really even much feedback via forums).

    DAGGER PRODIGY
    By 3rd level, you have devoted a significant amount of time to perfecting your skills with small blades. You are unequaled in your mastery of the dagger. You can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to make a single attack with a dagger.

    In addition, whenever you score a critical hit with a dagger, you may use your reaction to make an additional attack with a dagger.

    CONCEALED BLADES
    At 3rd level, any Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) checks you make to conceal, draw, or perform tricks with a dagger are made with advantage and you can also draw or sheathe a number of daggers equal to your Dexterity modifier (minimum of one) for free, during either your move or your action.

    RECURRENT ACCURACY
    At 9th level, anytime you score a critical hit or roll max damage with a dagger, whether in melee or as thrown attack, your next attack against the same target has advantage and scores a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.

    CUTS AND SLICES
    By 13th level, you have earned more than your fair share of wounds from the sharp edge of the dagger while perfecting your arts. You learn the Wisdom (Medicine) skill.

    As an action, you can use a healer’s kit to patch and sew wounds. A targeted creature that you touch regains a number of hit points equal to 1d8 + your Dexterity modifier, consuming one use of the healer’s kit. You can use a bonus action to increase this healing by an additional 2d8 hit points, though this consumes three uses of the kit.

    You may use a healing kit in this manner a number of times per short or long rest equal to your Dexterity modifier (minimum of one).

    Note: Healer’s kits are mentioned in the PHB on pg. 151. As stated in the description, it is assumed that a healer’s kit has a base ten uses.

    BLADE SAVANT
    Beginning at 17th level, your attacks with a dagger ignore piercing resistance, treat immunity to piercing damage as resistance, and are considered magical for purposes of overcoming immunity to non-magical attacks and damage.

    In addition, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action for the Dodge action, but only if you’re wielding a dagger in at least one hand.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: Rogueish Archetype: Master of Daggers [WIP]

    OK, comments on some of the maneuvers after a quick read-through:

    Bleeding Strike.
    How long does this effect last if not staunched or healed magically?

    Disarming Attack.
    The Disarm action is described in the DMG, p. 271. A little tweaking (e.g. uses Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check in lieu of a Strength saving throw) would help bring this in line with the “rule”. There’s also some wording about two-handed weapons and creature size differences.

    Disorienting Attack.
    The maneuver worded in this manner somewhat treads upon the Magehunter feat (not my catch, I made this same “mistake” in my own homebrew). I think if you tweak it to add the roll of your superiority die to the DC of the saving throw, you can maintain some synergy with the feat (and still achieve what I think you’re going for).

    Evasive Footwork.
    How does this work if you break up your movement? Or is it intended to be an “always on” for the duration of your turn?

    Ricochet Shot.
    This one doesn’t make sense to me as a piercing attack would..err…stick in the target and not ricochet well?

    Maybe something more along the lines of (worded better of course):

    Double Throw: You can expend one superiority die to throw two daggers with your Attack action. The targets must be within 5 feet of one another. You may add the roll of the superiority die to the damage of one of the attacks, your choice.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2010

    Default Re: Rogueish Archetype: Master of Daggers [WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourne View Post
    OK, comments on some of the maneuvers after a quick read-through:

    Bleeding Strike.
    How long does this effect last if not staunched or healed magically?
    I would imagine until you completely bleed out. I took the wording from the Barbed Devil. Even someone not proficient in staunching the wound should get it after a few rounds of trying though.

    Disarming Attack.
    The Disarm action is described in the DMG, p. 271. A little tweaking (e.g. uses Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check in lieu of a Strength saving throw) would help bring this in line with the “rule”. There’s also some wording about two-handed weapons and creature size differences.
    I copied it directly from the Battlemaster but if that wording is poor I can make those changes.

    Disorienting Attack.
    The maneuver worded in this manner somewhat treads upon the Magehunter feat (not my catch, I made this same “mistake” in my own homebrew). I think if you tweak it to add the roll of your superiority die to the DC of the saving throw, you can maintain some synergy with the feat (and still achieve what I think you’re going for).
    Good catch. I copied it from the UA Monster Hunter subclass. Should be easy enough to change it as you say.

    Evasive Footwork.
    How does this work if you break up your movement? Or is it intended to be an “always on” for the duration of your turn?
    Copied directly from Battlemaster too and yeah the wording is clunky. I'll change it to be on until the end of your turn.

    Ricochet Shot.
    This one doesn’t make sense to me as a piercing attack would..err…stick in the target and not ricochet well?

    Maybe something more along the lines of (worded better of course):

    Double Throw: You can expend one superiority die to throw two daggers with your Attack action. The targets must be within 5 feet of one another. You may add the roll of the superiority die to the damage of one of the attacks, your choice.
    Yeah this works better. I'll name it Palm Throw. Good change.


    Thanks for all the help! I may incorporate some of your Cutter abilities as well.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: Rogueish Archetype: Master of Daggers [WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    I would imagine until you completely bleed out. I took the wording from the Barbed Devil. Even someone not proficient in staunching the wound should get it after a few rounds of trying though.
    Was just curious. I haven’t really seen anyone explore or try to use a bleed mechanic yet (I think it's a cool mechanic). That’s a clever idea to use abilities from creatures in the MM… I may have to mine there for some new ideas for class features.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    I copied it directly from the Battlemaster but if that wording is poor I can make those changes.
    Completely up to you. Was just pointing out that an (optional) action exists in the DMG. I run into this problem a lot myself… I’ll copy something from a UA or one of the core books for the wording and get hammered for it on some forum for “not following design intent/wording.” : ) Part of the issue is probably that the PHB (Battlemaster) released before the DMG and some consistency was lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    Good catch. I copied it from the UA Monster Hunter subclass. Should be easy enough to change it as you say.
    It’s not bad as written per se, it just steals a little bit of thunder from Mage Hunter. Admittedly, it can be very hard to come up with new class features that don’t infringe on something (feats, other class archetypes, etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    Copied directly from Battlemaster too and yeah the wording is clunky. I'll change it to be on until the end of your turn.
    OK, was just curious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    Yeah this works better. I'll name it Palm Throw. Good change.
    I’d originally had a feature similar to this on my Cutter that scaled a little more…crazily.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    Thanks for all the help! I may incorporate some of your Cutter abilities as well.
    No problem! I’ll be curious as to see your final product (so I can “borrow” features to keep tinkering with my Cutter archetype).

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Sariel Vailo's Avatar

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    Jun 2016
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    Underdark
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    Default Re: Rogueish Archetype: Master of Daggers [WIP]

    some one had a class about blood and qith minor and near max level major bleed effecti still use the class. it was called sanguine knight i still use it. pretty fun but as for this my friend who wanted to be a cool guy rouge would have loved this class
    Last edited by Sariel Vailo; 2017-03-01 at 08:17 AM.
    Skully boyfriend's lead to skully wendigo weddings.
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    linklele you have brought a beautiful and favorite character of mine as well as fluffy to life i wanted to thank you. i may never again switch my avatar

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: Rogueish Archetype: Master of Daggers [WIP]

    I always liked the idea of the prestige class and what it allowed the player to do. You have a decent start but you do need to rethink out what your format is.
    1. You need to work out maneuvers and dice to match the Rogue's subclass levels, not the Fighter's.
    2. Master Thrower as is needs to be moved while it is just daggers it is another combat ability added on to the only thing a Battlemaster gets at the same level. Only focus on getting utility instead there about the same as a tool proficiency.
    3. When adjusting Combat Superiority a level 9 you get 2 more maneuvers and another dice to play with. Your Master Thrower here would be enough except add this phrase like this, "When you would throw your daggers you may treat them as both melee or ranged weapons when beneficial," this way there isn't any way catching the bad of both.
    4. 13 should be your big exploration or interaction pillar that could have some battle implications.
    5. When adjusting Combat Superiority your next die falls here with this being said since you don't get Relentless or die increases you should have your superiority die interact with your Sneak Attack in some way. I would suggest something like this. "Dastardly Knife: At level 17 When you would use a superiority die on an attack with a dagger you may deliver your Sneak Attack damage as well. If you could already the enemy has disadvantage on the save against the maneuver."
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2017-03-01 at 01:52 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2010

    Default Re: Rogueish Archetype: Master of Daggers [WIP]

    So I posted this in Reddit's homebrew subforum and got a lot of hate over using Superiority Dice. Some people are saying that it should be Fighter-only, others are afraid it's too bursty when you crit because you're rolling SA + superiority dice. Then I got a lot of other "interesting" complaints that I'll disregard.

    Overall though, I think maybe I can redesign the class as something that has "maneuvers" but isn't called that and doesn't add extra dice as its resource.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: Rogueish Archetype: Master of Daggers [WIP]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    So I posted this in Reddit's homebrew subforum and got a lot of hate over using Superiority Dice. .
    I've had to take break from the Reddit subforum as all I could ever seem to muster lately were lots of down votes and a ton of, "You can't do that". Don't get me wrong, there are some great users there that have excellent feedback, but I personally needed a breather/time to recover. : )

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    Overall though, I think maybe I can redesign the class as something that has "maneuvers" but isn't called that and doesn't add extra dice as its resource.
    I've often wondered about using the sneak attack die as a resource to fuel other features. For example, when using Sneak Attack, you could replace xx of your damage dice to trigger another option (essentially give up damage for conditions/effects)... just brainstorming, but something along the lines of (wording is gonna be awful):

    EYE SLASH: You slash across your foe's eyes. When making an attack that qualifies as a sneak attack, you can expend 4 of your sneak attack damage dice for that attack to force your opponent to make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed saving throw, your opponent is blinded until the end of your next turn. You can use this feature once per combat (or some other limiter).

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