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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by FinnS View Post
    Actually your answer should begin "If your DM allows it", these are your obvious choices.
    Sure:
    If your DM doesn't house rule your ability to do so away, you can use the full medium armor proficiency that you have to fairly trivially gain 16 or better ac without casting barkskin because there are no actual rules preventing you from doing it & no penalty other than house rules if you choose to. I detailed the combinations above to exceed 16 AC with modest dex scores.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    Sure:
    If your DM doesn't house rule your ability to do so away, you can use the full medium armor proficiency that you have to fairly trivially gain 16 or better ac without casting barkskin because there are no actual rules preventing you from doing it & no penalty other than house rules if you choose to. I detailed the combinations above to exceed 16 AC with modest dex scores.
    I want to start this by saying I might not have read everything and it might already be discussed but like, what is the ruling for AL? I'd consider that the base rule and everything else is a houserule sort of thing when it comes to very specific things like this.

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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Average ACs by my estimation; not counting single round boosts to AC or items, without intentional optimization for AC:

    Barbarian: Unarmored: 15-21; Armored: 17
    Bard: Lore: 14-15, Valor: 18-19
    Cleric: 18-20
    Druid: 16-17; if Metal Armor is Allowed: 19
    Fighter: 17-21
    Monk: 15-20
    Paladin: 17-21
    Ranger: 17-19
    Rogue: 17
    Sorcerer: Dragon: 15-16, Others; 14-15
    Warlock: 14-15
    Wizard: 15-16

    So access to metal armor is a 3 point boost to AC (or a 2 point plus freeing up stat points); which isn't world rocking but is substantial. Druids already sit above all the Arcane casters in terms of sustainable AC (barring Valor Bards); is there a real need to push them up above all but heavy armor users? I understand it won't break the game mechanically if you do, but... it doesn't break the game mechanically if you don't let them either.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by tkuremento View Post
    I want to start this by saying I might not have read everything and it might already be discussed but like, what is the ruling for AL? I'd consider that the base rule and everything else is a houserule sort of thing when it comes to very specific things like this.
    http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/feat...ers-march-2016

    There is not a single rule preventing your druid from doing it, none of the AL modules/adventures have stories that even touch on something it could undermine (the only warning from wotc's sage advice) & the AL FAQ pdf has this to say about house rules:
    Spoiler
    Show
    [quote]As a D&D Adventurers League Dungeon Master, you are empowered to adjudicate the rules as presented by the official materials (PHB, DMG, MM, etc.). Run the game according to those rules, but you are the final arbiter of any questions that might arise in doing so.
    House rules, that is to say rules that you create that aren’t in the official materials such as “critical fails”, new races, new classes, etc., aren’t permitted for use in D&D Adventurers League play/quote]



    that same faq has this to say about sage advice
    Spoiler
    Show
    What About Sage Advice?
    Sage Advice is a great barometer for ‘rules-asintended’,
    in any case. Whether or not any given
    Dungeon Master chooses to utilize Sage Advice as a
    resource for rules adjudication in D&D Adventurers
    League play is at the discretion of each individual
    DM.
    As always, the DM remains the final arbiter of how
    a rule is to be implemented in their game.


    Unlike a lot of the sage advice things where they clear up things with a significant lack of clarity, like the other things on that same march2016 entry, the only option to deny that the gm has in the case of chain shirt, scale mail, breastplate, or half plate on your druid is to play your character for you & declare "I'm not allowing your player to decide he/she wants to do that"... which in itself is a pretty sad sign in a gm. The reason that is the GM's only option is because AL prevents them from making up house rules to punish you for it other than perhaps NPC's giving you a hairy eyeball & that level of vindictiveness is going to turn other players against the gm if overdone & taken too far.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by tkuremento View Post
    I want to start this by saying I might not have read everything and it might already be discussed but like, what is the ruling for AL? I'd consider that the base rule and everything else is a houserule sort of thing when it comes to very specific things like this.
    [QUOTE=Tetrasodium;21769864]http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/feat...ers-march-2016

    There is not a single rule preventing your druid from doing it, none of the AL modules/adventures have stories that even touch on something it could undermine (the only warning from wotc's sage advice) & the AL FAQ pdf has this to say about house rules:
    Spoiler
    Show
    As a D&D Adventurers League Dungeon Master, you are empowered to adjudicate the rules as presented by the official materials (PHB, DMG, MM, etc.). Run the game according to those rules, but you are the final arbiter of any questions that might arise in doing so.
    House rules, that is to say rules that you create that aren’t in the official materials such as “critical fails”, new races, new classes, etc., aren’t permitted for use in D&D Adventurers League play/quote]


    that same faq has this to say about sage advice


    Unlike a lot of the sage advice things where they clear up things with a significant lack of clarity, like the other things on that same march2016 entry, the only option to deny that the gm has in the case of chain shirt, scale mail, breastplate, or half plate on your druid is to play your character for you & declare "I'm not allowing your player to decide he/she wants to do that"... which in itself is a pretty sad sign in a gm. The reason that is the GM's only option is because AL prevents them from making up house rules to punish you for it other than perhaps NPC's giving you a hairy eyeball & that level of vindictiveness is going to turn other players against the gm if overdone & taken too far.
    If you noticed I said base rule. This means you can iterate upon that at your table, but we need a place to start at. I don't see how that makes a sad sign for GM personally, but to each their own.

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    Sure:
    If your DM doesn't house rule your ability to do so away, you can use the full medium armor proficiency that you have to fairly trivially gain 16 or better ac without casting barkskin because there are no actual rules preventing you from doing it & no penalty other than house rules if you choose to. I detailed the combinations above to exceed 16 AC with modest dex scores.
    Yeah...Other than the FACT that it flat out stats Druid's will not wear metal armor...Sure.
    Since when does the simple absence of a penalty translate to being allowed?
    It doesn't.
    It says Druid's refuse to wear metal armor, end of story, there is no argument to be made on. So again, "If your DM allows it" should begin any answer regarding Druid's and metal armor.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    Druids already sit above all the Arcane casters in terms of sustainable AC (barring Valor Bards); is there a real need to push them up above all but heavy armor users? I understand it won't break the game mechanically if you do, but... it doesn't break the game mechanically if you don't let them either.

    The question ignores the role of "scotty I need more..." that druids kinda fill. Take a game my druid was in recently. Two rogues (rogue/bard & straight rogue), wizard(maybe 2?), a warlock, a cleric, a paladin, & myself. every single one of them was dex based (the cleric & paladin too) and/or restricted to light armor. a +1 magic breastplate was in the treasure. I was the only one capable of using medium armor who would not lose AC by doing so. I was actually pretty amazed & even tried the "are you guys sure you don't want it?... oh it would drop your ac.. ok" or "oh, you'd love it if you could use it, but don't have medium armor proficiency." with folks till I eventually settled on "ok, since nobody else wants to even take it, I can actually use it".

    In a breastplate I can sorta stealth along behind the rogue ready to launch into action as a bear or more safely be there to make wisdom based knowledge checks/detect magic type stuff with my d8 hp than the wizard's d6 & no armor hp. The cleric could sneak along with us even better with his dex, but generally does not because his skill proficiency is more towards less relevant areas. It fits squarely into the druid's toolbox to have that extra AC because even in a group with tanky types like fighter/barbarian, there are advantages to having someone with a boatload of temp-hp who can be there alongside them to swing their greataxe/use superiority dice/crit like champions/etc & that goes double if something happens that makes the fighter/barbarian/etc need to take a step back for whatever reason while the bear shoves himself in between them & an opponent.

    Yes a land druid leans more towards caster than moon druids, but that leaning is more akin to a weird cleric that has the same light/medium armor & shield armor prof plus lacks even a fluff note about the edged weapons that always kept them as mace wielders. If you are going to houserule that druids are forbidden from wearing metal armor because they couldn't before when barkskin functioned in a way that made up for & surpassed the loss, your going to need to houserule all of the old limitations other classes & races had that are no longer applicable on account of how 5th changes & collects just the good parts of older the older versions & builds from there to make a simpler more streamlined & fun game

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    Are you kidding me right now?
    I feel like you must be.

    It doesn't matter if they can wear metal armor. They will not wear metal armor.
    Fighter: "Here, wear this half-plate because you're proficient."
    Druid: "No. I will not put that on. It is unnatural for man to be clad in metal."
    Whether or not he physically can wear it is irrelevant, because he won't put it on.
    On the other hand, Dwarf druid.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by LordVonDerp View Post
    On the other hand, Dwarf druid.
    I don't see why being a dwarf matters, all Druids have proficiency in metal armors they will not wear. Having proficiency from your race isn't relevant.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by LordVonDerp View Post
    On the other hand, Dwarf druid.
    Correct. The only thing your GM can do without houserules (something AL forbids) is to say "I'm not allowing your character to decide he/she wants to and is willing to do that" & if your GM is telling you what your character is willing to do, you probably have a terrible GM who is going to go all cartman "RESPECT MAH AUTHORITY" in other areas that get progressively worse over time

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by LordVonDerp View Post
    On the other hand, Dwarf druid.
    Fighter: WTF, you're wearing metal, that's unnatural for druids!
    Dwarven druid: I was born wearing metal, donning off my armor would be unnatural.
    Last edited by Addaran; 2017-03-03 at 09:26 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Addaran View Post
    Fighter: WTF, you're wearing metal, that's unnatural for druids!
    Dwarven druid: I was born wearing metal, donning off my armor would be unnatural.
    kobold druid: I was hatched in darkness below the earth, metal is as natural to me as stone, now if you want to see unnatural... look at that freaking TREE... it grows above the ground & reaches TOWARDS the sun like it lacks the good sense that even it's roots have to get away from that far too bright.. ow my eyes.
    Last edited by Tetrasodium; 2017-03-03 at 09:31 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Hang out in the back. Have a tank get hit. Max out con, grab toughness.

    Otherwise single class,

    Arctic: Slow and Cone of Cold.

    Coast: Mirror Image and Misty Step.

    Desert: Blur

    Grassland: Invisibility, Haste

    Swamp: Darkness

    Underdark: Web, Gaseous Form, Greater Invisibility

    All of these should help out

    IMO grab wizard and get mage armor and the shield spell

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Devil

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by FinnS View Post
    Yeah...Other than the FACT that it flat out stats Druid's will not wear metal armor...Sure.
    Since when does the simple absence of a penalty translate to being allowed?
    It doesn't.
    It says Druid's refuse to wear metal armor, end of story, there is no argument to be made on. So again, "If your DM allows it" should begin any answer regarding Druid's and metal armor.
    If you as the person player are your characters driving will, ambition and decision arbiter, you can say my Character WILL wear metal armour.

    Will is a decision, will not is a decision. Why is it that in this alone the DM or the game sees fot to tell you that THIS is how your character will behave?

    What about a Mountain Druid? Can they not use the minerals of the mountain that they are druid of to craft armour?

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    If you as the person player are your characters driving will, ambition and decision arbiter, you can say my Character WILL wear metal armour.

    Will is a decision, will not is a decision. Why is it that in this alone the DM or the game sees fot to tell you that THIS is how your character will behave?

    What about a Mountain Druid? Can they not use the minerals of the mountain that they are druid of to craft armour?
    Is a vegetarian who eats meat a vegetarian?

    There are all sorts of ways the game tells you you must behave.

    Spells are a major one. You can't just stop believing in verbal components because your character doesn't want to say them. If you don't say them the spell doesn't happen.

    A druid who wears metal armour is not a druid.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    If you as the person player are your characters driving will, ambition and decision arbiter, you can say my Character WILL wear metal armour.

    Will is a decision, will not is a decision. Why is it that in this alone the DM or the game sees fot to tell you that THIS is how your character will behave?

    What about a Mountain Druid? Can they not use the minerals of the mountain that they are druid of to craft armour?
    "PROFICIENCIES
    Armor: Light armor, medium armor, shields (druids will
    not wear armor or use shields made of metal)

    Weapons: Clubs, daggers, darts, javelins, maces,
    quarlerstaffs, scimitars, sickles, slings. spears
    Tools: Herbalism kit
    Saving Throws: Intelligcnce, Wisdom"


    It doesn't matter what you, as the player of that character want to do. What YOU did was pick to be a Druid. YOU did so knowing that YOU will not wear metal armor. That was YOUR choice going in.
    That means quite simply with no possible argument to the contrary, that the only way YOU will be able to don metal armor and shields is IF YOUR DM ALLOWS IT THROUGH A HOUSE RULE!

    There is no spoon Neo.

    Proposing to your DM that as a Dwarf, you should be able to don metal armor and shields is a perfectly sound and reasonable request BUT the bottomline is it still requires DM approval period.
    Last edited by FinnS; 2017-03-03 at 11:28 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by FinnS View Post
    "PROFICIENCIES
    Armor: Light armor, medium armor, shields (druids will
    not wear armor or use shields made of metal)

    Weapons: Clubs, daggers, darts, javelins, maces,
    quarlerstaffs, scimitars, sickles, slings. spears
    Tools: Herbalism kit
    Saving Throws: Intelligcnce, Wisdom"


    It doesn't matter what you, as the player of that character want to do. What YOU did was pick to be a Druid. YOU did so knowing that YOU will not wear metal armor. That was YOUR choice going in.
    That means quite simply with no possible argument to the contrary, that the only way YOU will be able to don metal armor and shields is IF YOUR DM ALLOWS IT THROUGH A HOUSE RULE!

    There is no spoon Neo.

    Proposing to your DM that as a Dwarf, you should be able to don metal armor and shields is a perfectly sound and reasonable request BUT the bottomline is it still requires DM approval period.
    And yet, when the Druid dons metal armour, nothing happens as it would require another houserule to have anything happen because of it.
    Last edited by Socratov; 2017-03-04 at 04:09 AM.
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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    The question ignores the role of "scotty I need more..." that druids kinda fill. Take a game my druid was in recently. Two rogues (rogue/bard & straight rogue), wizard(maybe 2?), a warlock, a cleric, a paladin, & myself. every single one of them was dex based (the cleric & paladin too) and/or restricted to light armor. a +1 magic breastplate was in the treasure. I was the only one capable of using medium armor who would not lose AC by doing so. I was actually pretty amazed & even tried the "are you guys sure you don't want it?... oh it would drop your ac.. ok" or "oh, you'd love it if you could use it, but don't have medium armor proficiency." with folks till I eventually settled on "ok, since nobody else wants to even take it, I can actually use it".

    In a breastplate I can sorta stealth along behind the rogue ready to launch into action as a bear or more safely be there to make wisdom based knowledge checks/detect magic type stuff with my d8 hp than the wizard's d6 & no armor hp. The cleric could sneak along with us even better with his dex, but generally does not because his skill proficiency is more towards less relevant areas. It fits squarely into the druid's toolbox to have that extra AC because even in a group with tanky types like fighter/barbarian, there are advantages to having someone with a boatload of temp-hp who can be there alongside them to swing their greataxe/use superiority dice/crit like champions/etc & that goes double if something happens that makes the fighter/barbarian/etc need to take a step back for whatever reason while the bear shoves himself in between them & an opponent.

    Yes a land druid leans more towards caster than moon druids, but that leaning is more akin to a weird cleric that has the same light/medium armor & shield armor prof plus lacks even a fluff note about the edged weapons that always kept them as mace wielders. If you are going to houserule that druids are forbidden from wearing metal armor because they couldn't before when barkskin functioned in a way that made up for & surpassed the loss, your going to need to houserule all of the old limitations other classes & races had that are no longer applicable on account of how 5th changes & collects just the good parts of older the older versions & builds from there to make a simpler more streamlined & fun game
    I've seen plenty of discussions derailed by people like you. Also, entire gaming groups.
    Stop playing aggressively pedantic rules lawyer at the expense of the thread.

    The player rules say 'they do not wear them'. Just because a Sage advice said 'the whole world won't burn down if you do because of some extenuating circumstance', that doesn't mean the actual class description is now a house rule. If you want to play a divine caster that wears tons of metal, you have many other choices.

    Please go derail those threads instead, so Land Druid players like me can learn things. Thank you in advance!

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    And yet, when the Druid dons metal armour, nothing happens as it would require another houserule to have anything happen because of it.
    I absolutely dare you to try it after a DM has already ruled you couldn't.

    Like seriously what part of it's a part of the class YOU picked is not being understood here.

    Personally, to start, the first time said Druid tried to change shape I would tell them that you start to change but your metal armor interferes with the change wasting the attempt.
    If said player didn't get the message after that then I would start fizzling their spells from time to time.
    If that still wasn't enough get him to play by the rules of the class THEY picked I would simply say enough is enough, lose the metal armor or reroll a new class/character.

    So yeah, while there are no stated penalties listed, the DM is free to come up with whatever the hell they want to to punish said player for going against the ethos of the class that player picked.
    As I said previously, YOU knew the restrictions going in and picked to play a Druid anyway.
    Sorry you don't get to ignore something afterwards that you were well aware of in the first place.
    Either you discuss the possibility with your DM before picking the class or if simply not being able to wear metal if that much of a deal breaker for you then pick another class.

    Why is this conversation even continuing?
    Get permission from your DM and live with whatever ruling he sets.

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    What would happen if the druid unknowingly put on metal armour (looks and feels like a different material by magic)? There is nothing saying a druid would loose spells or powers.

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Derail aside and answering the OP's question, the only advice I can offer is to not spend so much time on the front line and let other people do AC-needing duty, and to use your shield proficiency. Dex 14 + hide + shield is as good as barkskin already and you don't need nearly so much dex if you're fine with your AC being merely ok (since you probably won't be using a finesse weapon when you do fight in melee); a core human on default array could have WIS 16, CON 15, STR 14, DEX 13, just based on that and to follow the quick-build suggestions to put CON second, with strength third 'cause they expect to use it to attack, and (with hide armor and a shield) have an AC of 15, one worse than they could do with Barkskin, and that's close to the most un-optimized build possible. This does, admittedly, have issues with needing a hand free for somatic components, though, so unless you take Warcaster you'll stow and draw your weapon (neither of which takes an action if you're only doing one thing to one weapon) quite a lot, but that ties in with not trying to fight in melee. Land druid is the caster kit; if you wanted to melee you'd be a moon druid.

    Spoiler: Derail
    Show
    It's perfectly fine within the bounds of that sage advice for the DM to say "fine, you put the metal armor on. Here's a new character sheet to rebuild your character, you are no longer a druid". It's even adventurer's league legal below level 5. (I mean, I'm not saying this is how I'd rule it, especially just for the act of putting metal armor on, but make a habit of using it and the DM is within the bounds of that sage advice to say that you are no longer a druid; if I were called on to make a ruling and chose this one, I'd base it on that a character who wears metal armor (habitually) is clearly not a druid, but a character who is wearing metal armor, as a one-off thing with good reason, might be).

    Story elements, to use the sage's wording and game rules aren't strictly separated in 5e, and the sage specifically says there that you can't unilaterally decide to discard the story elements that are given as features common to all members of your class (like it specifically says to ask the DM if you want to get rid of that, the same as if you wanted to float any other house rule).

    A DM in AL is also entirely within the bounds of the player's handbook and sage advice to say "no, you don't" when you declare that you're putting metal armor on, because the sage advice tells you to ask your DM to come up with a house rule if you want to be a druid in metal armor (like, it specifically says to discuss this with your DM beforehand. it'd be rather rude to spring something like that on your DM mid-session without prior planning, and then to insist that your one interpretation of an area suggested for house-ruling is the obviously objectively correct rule there), and AL doesn't allow house rules of that kind. The rule as written is that when you made a druid, you agreed that your character wouldn't wear metal armor; pretending that the DM is being authoritarian or vindictive by not allowing you to unilaterally break that agreement, or to break it without consequence, amounts to throwing a childish tantrum that the rulebook you agreed to play by constrains your behavior.

    Given that not wearing metal armor may be the only constraint universal to all druids, I would hardly expect switching to metal armor to be the first thing a druid thinks to do when they start getting hit more than they can take in combat. A druid is a member of a mystical order who derives supernatural power from that order and not wearing metal armor is one of the defining features of that order; I wouldn't expect, in-character, a druid to even know what the consequences would be for wearing it; it's just Not Done, not because you're threatened with punishment for it but because you Don't Do It.

    There's a word for breaking a taboo you agreed to and got supernatural power for agreeing to and expecting to get away with it without consequence. That word is "hubris". Gods never take kindly to being scammed, and "what can [the gods/the DM] do to me?" is a challenge you never want to issue. Once you've asked the DM what they worst they can do to you is (and going "you're not allowed to apply consequences for my breach of this rule, because of this list of kinds of consequences you can't apply" is that challenge), you have no room to complain about vindictive DMing.

    also, re:kobold and dwarven druids who live underground, do you think that metal comes out of the ground as large amounts of native metal? It comes up as rocks that have to be alchemized into metal in a process involving burning large amounts of charcoal (which means clear-felling forests; even if you have a way to cleanly mine coal, it's not always as good as charcoal for smelting because the impurities it carries (sulfur in particular) can weaken the metal), then beaten into shape. Mining, smelting, and smithing is a process that requires a large number of organized, sedentary people set to altering things in their environment into forms it isn't seen in nature in, and that's true even if you live underground.
    Last edited by Beneath; 2017-03-04 at 06:57 AM. Reason: rearranged, put the derail in spoiler block

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    There's a fairly easy way to DM this, just have druids not have proficiency if the armour is made of metal. They're not used to wearing it, so they have never trained in it, so they don't get proficiency.

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    And yet, eating brussels sprouts might be good for you (and I'm sure someone can make them palatable).

    But anyway, I find this a bit of a false equivalence: jumping from a skyscraper and stabbing yourself with a hunting knife is detrimental and carries actual risk. wearing metal armour is generally a good idea (unless it would be inferior to natural armour or a version of unarmored defence/mage armour): it protects you from harm and has no detrimental effect.
    And all of that is utterly and completely irrelevant, because he flat out refuses to do it.
    Some people are vegetarians. They refuse to eat meat. Say whatever you want about the benefits of consuming protein from the flesh of animals, they REFUSE TO DO IT.
    That's how a druid feels about metal armor. Those are the rules.
    If you want to change it with an houserule, feel free, but don't claim that its allowable by the rules because they used the word "will" instead of the word "can" {scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2017-03-06 at 10:01 PM.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Beneath View Post
    also, re:kobold and dwarven druids who live underground, do you think that metal comes out of the ground as large amounts of native metal? It comes up as rocks that have to be alchemized into metal in a process involving burning large amounts of charcoal (which means clear-felling forests; even if you have a way to cleanly mine coal, it's not always as good as charcoal for smelting because the impurities it carries (sulfur in particular) can weaken the metal), then beaten into shape. Mining, smelting, and smithing is a process that requires a large number of organized, sedentary people set to altering things in their environment into forms it isn't seen in nature in, and that's true even if you live underground.
    "Tanning hide into leather involves a process which permanently alters the protein structure of skin, making it more durable and less susceptible to decomposition, and also possibly coloring it.

    Before tanning, the skins are unhaired, degreased, desalted and soaked in water over a period of 6 hours to 2 days. Historically this process was considered a noxious or "odoriferous trade" and relegated to the outskirts of town, amongst the poor.

    Traditionally, tanning used tannin, an acidic chemical compound from which the tanning process draws its name (tannin is in turn named after an old German word for oak or fir trees, from which the compound was derived)."

    Leather seems to also require altering things in their environment into forms that aren't seen in nature. =P

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    And yet, when the Druid dons metal armour, nothing happens as it would require another houserule to have anything happen because of it.
    Actually, the character refused to don the metal armor in the first place. Why? The PHB says so. You're trying to make an invalid in-character decision, per the PHB, trying to ignore a roleplaying rule. It's a decision you, as the player, are not allowed to make for the character.

    Or the DM can just follow the Sage Advice. The character explodes!

    In all seriousness, if you want to ignore or modify a roleplaying rule, especially one that includes having mechanical consequences, you need to talk to the DM. Just because it's roleplaying rule doesn't mean it's not a rule. There's no special "roleplaying rules are under player control to make all decisions about" rule. Even when they are 100% 'fluff' with no mechanical consequences, which this one is definitely not.

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    If you were in AL, there are a number of options for magic armor that aren't metal. The half plate of poison resistance made of pressed mushroom comes to mind. Since you eventually won't need the poison resistance as a land druid, you could just stop attuning to it at that point and free up an attunement slot while still having viable half plate. I assume you're not so talk to your DM about paying a little extra to have armor made from non-standard materials, e.g. a breastplate made from tortoise shells or half plate from bulette shells as was mentioned earlier. It could even turn into a mini-quest to obtain the materials.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir cryosin View Post
    Oh I will wear metal jewelry.
    And studded leather is just jewelry for your armor, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Specter View Post
    Play Coast Druid for Mirror Image. Barkskin is on the 'never use' list.
    2nded. This is really intended for wild shape and sucks then too and a land druid will not be wild-shaping that much.

    Is there an actual never-cast list somewhere around here? If not, there should be.
    Last edited by Dalebert; 2017-03-04 at 10:05 AM.
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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    I always find the 'special materials' suggestion to be rather hinky. Any armor made of a creature's skin should be leather or hide shouldn't it? Doesn't matter if it's dragon skin, troll skin, or cow skin. The carapace idea seems even worse. That's just going to shatter under a good blow.

    OTOH that's all far too simulation. I guess the reason I really don't like it is it feels like trying to short-cut a rule for an AC bonus. If you're going to allow that as a DM why not just hand out +2 magical Hide or Leather to give them the desired AC bonus?

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    I always find the 'special materials' suggestion to be rather hinky. Any armor made of a creature's skin should be leather or hide shouldn't it? Doesn't matter if it's dragon skin, troll skin, or cow skin. The carapace idea seems even worse. That's just going to shatter under a good blow.

    OTOH that's all far too simulation. I guess the reason I really don't like it is it feels like trying to short-cut a rule for an AC bonus. If you're going to allow that as a DM why not just hand out +2 magical Hide or Leather to give them the desired AC bonus?
    The game doesn't agree with you, since dragon skin armor gives great AC and resistance to a damage type. Legends also don't follow your logic. Awesome creature's skin are way tougher then cow skin, just check the lion of Nemea. Even IRL, leather from different animals have different toughness/durability.

    Armor shattering doesn't matter, cause armors don't degrade in D&D. Even metal armor would break pass using point.

    It's a rule that's just there cause scared cow and for fluff. Every single caster class have access to better then 12 (+2 dex) or 11+dex without needing concentration. Balance wise, it doesn't make sense that the druid gets the worst AC ever. It's not people trying to short-cut a rule for AC bonus.
    If you want to give +2 armor, it would work.... but they need to be +2 more then the others. So when the group have +3 armor, the druid will have +5 for some reason....

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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Addaran View Post
    It's a rule that's just there cause scared cow and for fluff. Every single caster class have access to better then 12 (+2 dex) or 11+dex without needing concentration. Balance wise, it doesn't make sense that the druid gets the worst AC ever. It's not people trying to short-cut a rule for AC bonus.
    Not only does it not make sense, it just isn't true.
    Wizard or Sorc get 10+Dex, or 13+Dex with mage armor.
    Druids can have 10+Dex, or 11+Dex with leather, or 12+Dex with studded, or 12+Dex(max2) with hide, or up to +3 to any of those except the first via magical armor, or 16 with barkskin.
    Druids do not have the worst AC in the game. They have similar AC to every other caster class' base. Actually higher due to inherent proficiency with potential magical studded leather.
    Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2017-03-04 at 10:58 AM.
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    Default Re: Land Druid and it's AC problems

    Quote Originally Posted by DivisibleByZero View Post
    Not only does it not make sense, it just isn't true.
    Wizard or Sorc get 10+Dex, or 13+Dex with mage armor.
    Druids can have 10+Dex, or 11+Dex with leather, or 12+Dex with studded, or 12+Dex(max2) with hide, or up to +3 to any of those except the first via magical armor, or 16 with barkskin.
    Druids do not have the worst AC in the game. They have similar AC to every other caster class' base. Actually higher due to inherent proficiency with potential magical studded leather.
    Barkskin takes concentration. I mentionned concentration-less methods because concentration can be very important for a full caster.
    Studded leather is out of the question because there's metal in it. (in 3.5 for example, they specifically say padded, leather or hide) You're the one arguing that a druid won't wear metal no-matter what. Let's not mix in magic armor cause anyone can wear a +3 elven chain. (well except druid)

    So druid have max 13+dex (shield+ leather) or 14+2 (hide+shield, max of 2 dex). (we both forgot to take shields into account)

    Lore bard: 12+dex with studded leather (my mistake, didn't think of this one)
    Valor bard: 14+dex (shield+studded) or 17+2 (half-plate + shield, max of 2 dex)
    Clerics: 14+dex (shield+studded) or 17+2 (half-plate + shield, max of 2 dex)
    Sorcerer: 13+dex (mage armor or dragonic)
    Warlock: 13+dex (mage armor invocation)
    Wizard: 13+dex (mage armor)

    So in the end, lore bard is to absolute worst, then druid is tied to sorcerer, warlock and wizard.

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