Level One Multiclass

[Lia]

I'm from AD&D, new to 3.5 (haven't been playing for a few years). One of the first things I noticed was that with the new multiclass it seemed like you could start 1st level, then switch to whatever you wanted. Example: Become a 1st level Barbarian to get 12 freebie starting hit points, then at level 2 switch to Wizard and do that till 19 (and you've got 3 maxxed levels of starting hp for your wizard to be more survivable). Then I saw the rule on -20% experience and said, "Oh, that's why nobody would do that." Then I saw that racial preferences allowed you to discount one or more classes with an extreme level difference (Barbarian 1/Wizard 12), so it looks like you CAN do that without a -20% penalty. Am I misreading something in the rules?

[Krade]

That's pretty much right. Humans (and helf-elves IIRC) take no penalty to experience for multiclassing. Everything else takes the penalty unless all class levels stay within 1 level of each other. So a Barbarian 1/Wizard 2 would take no penalties, while Barbarian 1/Wizard 3 does. For a race's favored class, that class does not contribute to determining if you get a penalty. So if you were an Elf or half-orc, Barbarian 1/Wizard 3 wouldn't give you penalties because one of your classes is a favored class. I could go on with examples on 3 classes, but I think you get the point.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Well, you *can* do that.

But then you're giving up a level of spellcasting. At level 5, you'll be a Barbarian 1/Wizard 4, and won't have third level spells.

Since spellcasting is the most potent ability short of Divine Ranks, that's generally considered a Bad Idea.

At very low levels, it adds a little survivability and gives you something to fall back on.

But pretty soon, that extra 8 HP? *Really, really* not worth a caster level.

[SadisticFishing]

But most people don't understand multiclass penalties, from what I've seen, or I don't.

The way I read it, if you go barbarian 1, then wizard 19, even if neither is your favored class you take no penalties, as you only take penalties from levelling a class that is two BEHIND another.

Right?

[MeklorIlavator]

But most people don't understand multiclass penalties, from what I've seen, or I don't.

The way I read it, if you go barbarian 1, then wizard 19, even if neither is your favored class you take no penalties, as you only take penalties from levelling a class that is two BEHIND another.

Right?

No. If any classes, besides favored ones, are ever more than 1 level apart, you get the muticlass penalties.

[SadisticFishing]

Alright, I was half-wrong, but the other half doesn't concern you guys.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[JackMage666]

But, I think multiclassing penalties are often ignored by both players and DMs...

Sometimes, creativity rules over mechanics.

Yes, you cold go Barbarian 1/Wizard X, but why? Increased survivability is the mechancial reason, but what's the roleplaying reason? Does your wizard have temper tantrums, thus going into a rage and smashing things rather than casting? That's about the only reason I see to it...

[Lia]

Well, you *can* do that.

But then you're giving up a level of spellcasting. At level 5, you'll be a Barbarian 1/Wizard 4, and won't have third level spells.

Since spellcasting is the most potent ability short of Divine Ranks, that's generally considered a Bad Idea.

At very low levels, it adds a little survivability and gives you something to fall back on.

But pretty soon, that extra 8 HP? *Really, really* not worth a caster level.

Interesting point, what then of skill levels. Say you're 18 intelligence (+4 bonus) and start as a level one thief. Then you've got (8+4)*4 = 48 skill points at level one, versus a wizard who would only start with (2+4)*4 = 24 skill points at level one (not to mention the 6 hp versus 4). I still see your point about spellcasting though.

[SadisticFishing]

Oh and if you take a level of barbarian, be sure to take Rage Mage. The name is so catchy!

[Jack Mann]

Of course, a lot of DMs throw out the multiclass penalties entirely. They don't add anything to the game.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Interesting point, what then of skill levels. Say you're 18 intelligence (+4 bonus) and start as a level one thief. Then you've got (8+4)*4 = 48 skill points at level one, versus a wizard who would only start with (2+4)*4 = 24 skill points at level one (not to mention the 6 hp versus 4). I still see your point about spellcasting though.

Well, then you have a lot of skills at 4.
But they're cross-clas for a wizard, so you'd have to pay 2 points to raise any of them by 1 rank, and you'd only be able to keep a few raised--and in D&D, a skill that's not kept at the maximum isn't worth that much. So you'd have a lot of skill ranks, which would be a little useful at first, but then stop being useful. A character that wants skills

Still, you can do something like Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10 (a splatbook rogue/wizard prestige class that gets 6+INT skill points per level)/Arcane Trickster 5, taking the Able Learner feat (from the Races of Destiny book, it lets you buy crossclass skills for 1 skill point per rank rather than 2, effectively making any skill that was once a class skill always a class skill), and keep a lot of important skills high as well as being an almost-full spellcaster. That makes for a fun and viable character.

[JackMage666]

Interesting point, what then of skill levels. Say you're 18 intelligence (+4 bonus) and start as a level one thief. Then you've got (8+4)*4 = 48 skill points at level one, versus a wizard who would only start with (2+4)*4 = 24 skill points at level one (not to mention the 6 hp versus 4). I still see your point about spellcasting though.

Yes, you could... But remember, you don't get the Wizard's class skills, so it's not all that helpful. Yeah, you're a little bit more of a Skill Monkey, but what you really need as a Wizard is Spellcraft, Concentration, and Knowledge (arcana)... None of these are class skills for a Rogue. So, actually, you're worse off for skills in this case, since next level won't give you enough skill points to max the important skills.

[Lia]

Yes, you could... But remember, you don't get the Wizard's class skills, so it's not all that helpful. Yeah, you're a little bit more of a Skill Monkey, but what you really need as a Wizard is Spellcraft, Concentration, and Knowledge (arcana)... None of these are class skills for a Rogue. So, actually, you're worse off for skills in this case, since next level won't give you enough skill points to max the important skills.

Interesting, thanks, everyone for your input. Oh, and yes... I do feel it is important if you are doing something like this to make sure there is a reason for it in your character background (not to just make walking piles of stats).

[Lia]

Oh, and just because nobody's mentioned it, and I can't find it listed anywhere... I assume prestige classes never incur a penalty.

[Jack Mann]

Well, it's important to remember that classes are a metagame quality. A character doesn't know that he's a rogue or a fighter. He doesn't know that he only needs one more level of barbarian to increase his damage reduction. In game, the abilities are just things the characters know how to do. I mean, if you have them justify branching out from rogue to fighter, you might as well have them justify taking another level of rogue.

[SadisticFishing]

Well, it's important to remember that classes are a metagame quality. A character doesn't know that he's a rogue or a fighter. He doesn't know that he only needs one more level of barbarian to increase his damage reduction. In game, the abilities are just things the characters know how to do. I mean, if you have them justify branching out from rogue to fighter, you might as well have them justify taking another level of rogue.

I disagree. During your fighter level, in your spare time, you'd spend more time practising your martial-ness than in your rogue level. Barbarians spend time outdoors. If this stuff doesn't happen, like in most campaigns, just.. um, pretend it does.

[Jack Mann]

The abilities are, sure. But the actual classes? "Hi! I'm Bob. I'm a twelfth level fighter." That's metagaming. He doesn't know he's a twelfth level anything. He just knows he's good at combat. He'd probably identify himself as a soldier, or a guard, or a mercenary. It's not, "Hi, I'm the Off-White Ratcatcher, a fifth level rogue, first level fighter." It's, "Hi, I'm the Off-White Ratcatcher, procurer of rare oddities," or maybe he calls himself a detective, or a mercenary. He's just a skillful person who's also knows a bit about fighting. Sure, he knows that recently he's worked a bit harder on fighting, but he doesn't know that he's taken a level of fighter. Sure, you might have him justify those new abilities, but why not have him justify the fact that he's learned some new tricks from rogue levels too?

Characters know what they can do, but they do not necessarily know why. If they did, you end up with the absurdity of Order of the Stick. It kills verisimilitude.

There are a few classes that they would have some knowledge of, of course. You would know that you were a wizard, for example, rather than a sorcerer. But a swashbuckler doesn't know that he's a different class than the rogue or the fighter. He just knows that his abilities are a bit different. Just as one fighter's abilities are different from the next.

[MrNexx]

Oh, and just because nobody's mentioned it, and I can't find it listed anywhere... I assume prestige classes never incur a penalty.

They do not; it's at the beginning of the Prestige Class chapter in the DMG. NPC classes didn't, either, in 3.0, but that was dropped.

[SadisticFishing]

A Swashbuckler is only a Swashbuckler if he calls himself one.

Spell levels actually exist in game, by the way :P

And no, a Fighter wouldn't say "twelth level fighter", but he would say "I'm a damn good fighter!"

[Jack Mann]

Yes, a fighter would say that. So would a barbarian. So would a paladin. So would a monk, even though he'd be lying.

[horseboy]

A Swashbuckler is only a Swashbuckler if he calls himself one.

Spell levels actually exist in game, by the way :P

And no, a Fighter wouldn't say "twelth level fighter", but he would say "I'm a damn good fighter!"

hehe
Peasant: Why does this glaive say BMF on it?
Fighter: Just put it down, and you won't have to find out.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Since most DMs ignore the 20% experience penalty it is a bit of a toss up.

Hit points and Int bonus with a Plane Touched +0 LA (Tiefling) Human Warblade (12 Hit Points, 4 + 1 + (Int Mod (2+) + (1 Teifling Int bonus) skill points at level 1 and going Wizard afterwards without an experience point penalty plus Concentration and Diplomacy as class skills so Arcana or Spellcraft could be maximized at level 2 as a wizard.

The +0 LA Planetouched (Tiefling) (Hengekoai Changed/Updated in Dragon) OE Hengekoai or ECS Changeling using the Variant Changeling Rogue with 10 base skill points and the Social Intuition ability at level 1 but would receive the experience point penalty by the rules unless it is ignored in your campaign.

[Shisumo]

Yes, you could... But remember, you don't get the Wizard's class skills, so it's not all that helpful. Yeah, you're a little bit more of a Skill Monkey, but what you really need as a Wizard is Spellcraft, Concentration, and Knowledge (arcana)... None of these are class skills for a Rogue. So, actually, you're worse off for skills in this case, since next level won't give you enough skill points to max the important skills.

Well, yeah, but that'd only be true for a level, and not really so much even then. A wizard with an 18 Int gets 6 skill points/level - assuming the rogue level included two ranks in each of those skills, you could max out Concentration and Know (arcana), and use the synergy bonus from the latter to boost your Spellcraft check as well. So you'd have Concentration 5, Know (arcana) 5, Spellcraft 2. Then, at level three, you take you 6 skill points and buy all three up to 6, and you're right back where you should be. Plus you have 9 more skills with 4 ranks in them, making you (wonder of wonders!) a wizard who can see things! Or actually make use of elven heightened senses to find hidden doors!

[Pokemaster]

Aside from taking two levels of Fighter for the bonus feat, I don't think multiclassing is worth it unless it's tied into the character's concept. A Barbarian1/Wizard19 will have slightly more hit points, but his early-level spell progression will be crippled, and the eight extra hit points are going to be insignificant once you hit mid-level. A Rogue1/Wizard19 will start off with a lot of skill points, but if he has 18 intelligence, he's only going to get 6 skill points, so he won't be able to max out Spellcraft, Concentration or Knowledge (Arcana) unless he gets them as cross-class skills as a Rogue (and I'm not too sure about that either), and then he'll have a bunch of skills that aren't really needed for Wizards, and his spellcasting is going to be crippled for a while.

Spellcasting classes really don't multi-class very well.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Aside from taking two levels of Fighter for the bonus feat, I don't think multiclassing is worth it unless it's tied into the character's concept. A Barbarian1/Wizard19 will have slightly more hit points, but his early-level spell progression will be crippled, and the eight extra hit points are going to be insignificant once you hit mid-level. A Rogue1/Wizard19 will start off with a lot of skill points, but if he has 18 intelligence, he's only going to get 6 skill points, so he won't be able to max out Spellcraft, Concentration or Knowledge (Arcana) unless he gets them as cross-class skills as a Rogue (and I'm not too sure about that either), and then he'll have a bunch of skills that aren't really needed for Wizards, and his spellcasting is going to be crippled for a while.

Spellcasting classes really don't multi-class very well.

He could by 3rd level if he took that first level in Warblade which gets 4 base skill points along with Concentration and Diplomacy as class skills.

In a leveling up campaign a first level in Warblade could make a big difference in surviving as most will rarely go past mid level 9 - 11.

[lord_khaine]

and he would still be a caster lv down for very little gain.

[Droodle]

Sure, a Barbarian1/Wizard loses out a bit, but who'd play that, anyway, when you could play a Barbarian 1/Wizard 5/Knight Phantom (or Eldritch Knight, Swiftblade, Rage Mage.....) 10/ Abjurant Champion 4? Or whatever. Most builds that add warrior levels end up PrCing into some type of Gish....and I'd rather have a well built Gish who only loses a caster level or 2 than a straight wizard any day. (On the flip side, I'd rather have an Archmage who lose no caster levels and grabs all those tasty metamagic feats than a Gish, so it's probably a bit unfair to compare a PrC'd Gish to a straight Wizard.)

[Person_Man]

Basic Guidelines for Multi classing and Prestige classing:

1) If you are a full spellcaster, do not take levels of anything that does not fully progress your caster levels. Access to higher level spells is almost always more powerful then any other class feature, additional hit points, BAB, or anything else.

2) If you are a melee class, do no take levels of anything that does not grant full BAB. High BAB is the easiest and most reliable way to increase your To-Hit, number of attacks, and damage (via Power Attack/Leap Attack).

3) If you want useful Skills, the easiest method is to be a Human and take your first level in a class that has all of the Skills you want on its list, like a Factotum (which has every Skill). Now that they are on one of your class lists, the max rank for each of those Skills will always be Character level + 3. Take the Able Learner feat from Races of Destiny, which makes the cost of all Skills 1 point, regardless of whether or not they are on your current class list when you spend them. Have a high Int. You're now free to spend your other 19 class levels on anything you want. Since this type of build is usually about being a toolbox, generally hangs back with a ranged weapon during combat, and doesn't rely on spells or BAB, its also the most free to do whatever it wants in regards to wacky class, race, or template combinations.

4) Rules 1-3 are usually mutually exclusive. That was done on purpose by the game designers. If you specialize, you will be very powerful at that one thing, and the players in your party will have to take turns in the spotlight. If you generalize, you will be proportionately mediocre at a lot of things, and you will be in competition with other players regarding who gets to do what, and will often be very underpowered compared to them.

5) There is an exception to every rule. If you want to do some weird combination, just ask the boards, and there's usually a way. But in general, following Rules 1-4 will lead to more powerful builds and complimentary party rosters.

[Morty]

3) If you want useful Skills, the easiest method is to be a Human and take your first level in a class that has all of the Skills you want on its list, like a Factotum (which has every Skill).

Where's the Factotum class from?

[Person_Man]

Where's the Factotum class from?

Dungeonscape. And when I say all class Skills, I mean ALL, including Autohypnosis, Iaijutsu Focus, Use Magic Device, and Use Psionic Device. Rich (the host of this site) wrote it. It's quite good.

In my opinion, the Factotum, the Beguiler, and the Psychic Rogue are the best Skill Monkeys in the game.