Core-Only Fighter

[Fixer]

Because of the strangeness of our current gaming group (the brother who messed up the last game wants to DM now) I am looking for a low-level build that will stand up to the test of levels.

I am asking for critique (CORE ONLY) on this Fighter.

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Half-Orc Fighter
Str 18 (16+2), Dex 14, Con 17, Int 13 (15-2), Wis 14, Cha 11 (13-2) [Rolled Good]
Fighter 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple
Will pick up spiked armor and wrestle things to death most of the time. Will also pick up a Glaive for reach attacks and a sling for ranged. +9 to grapple checks at 1st level is very nice. Will also be toting a tower shield for cover and will drop when close enough to beat on people. You can't use a tower shield AND a glaive at the same time, can you?
Fighter 2: Combat Expertise
Fighter 3: Improved Trip
Knock 'em down with Trip then grapple while they are prone with the bonus attack. Pick up a Guisarme instead of a glaive.
Fighter 4: Improved Disarm
Knock 'em down with Trip then disarm them while they are prone and use any provoked attacks to initiate a grapple. Add a ranseur to the weapon lineup.

Not bad.

2nd try

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Half-Orc Fighter
Str 18 (16+2), Dex 14, Con 17, Int 13 (15-2), Wis 14, Cha 11 (13-2) [Rolled Good]
Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Combat Expertise
Wisdom bonus to AC is ok, extra feats is better, but the savesare what really help here. I will miss the BAB.
Monk 2
Want Evasion & better saves.
Cleric 1: Improved Trip
Going with Strength Domain for Enlarge Person access. starting to wear heavy spiked armor.
Fighter 1: Improved Disarm

Ick.... I am not liking this one as much. BAB takes a two point hit which, at 4th level, is half of it. This guy is a grappler 1st, and concentrating on the two handed ranged weapon second, and LASTLY concentrating on ranged. There will be other party members who do the ranged thing and the magic thing and, as part of a team, I'd prefer to leave that to them and just concentrate on eliminating the biggest, baddest threat against the party so everyone can beat on it.

3rd Try

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Human Cleric
Str 17, Dex 11, Con 16, Int 14 , Wis 15, Cha 14
Cleric 1: Improved Unarmed Fighting, Improved Grapple
Going with spiked armor, buckler shield & longspear. Strength and Travel as domains. Travel to get out of bad grapples easily.
Fighter 1: Combat Expertise
Picking up a tower shield and glaive.
Fighter 2: Power Attack, Improved Trip
Switching to Guisarme for weapon.
Cleric 2

Just keep alternating between the two until Cleric reaches 4, then keeping with Fighter. Gives access to decent spells, especially with wands and scrolls, and lets him focus on grappling. Will keep up my Will save as well.

[Draz74]

I believe you're right that prone will lead to bonuses/penalties on an opposed Disarm check, but not a Grapple check.

If you're a tripper (without Knockdown), why on earth use a Glaive instead of a Guisarme?

Improved Disarm is generally considered quite a poor feat. If your campaign will be mostly against humanoid NPCs, it's decent (although even then, you can usually successfully disarm without the feat, by using this very trick of knocking them prone first). Otherwise, there are just two many critters that you can't even Disarm. I'd replace this with something else. Combat Reflexes is great if you have a fairly high Dex.

[Person_Man]

The -4 penalty to being Prone applies to any attack roll, including the initial To-Hit roll to start a Grapple. However it does not apply to any opposed roll (in which both you and the target roll a dice) such as opposed Str checks involved in a Disarm or step 3 of a Grapple.

Core only melee types are pretty screwed. Your best option is generally Power Attack and Spirited Charge with a lance two handed from the back of a mount, because they provide damage that's scaled to your BAB. Throw in Cleave for an extra attack. If you're a Paladin (which is generally superior to a core only Fighter, since Core only Fighters have no where to go with their feats after mid-levels), pick up Leadership for a dragon mount or something similarly uber.

[Draz74]

Um ... Disarm isn't an opposed Strength check. It's an opposed attack roll. So that means prone penalties would indeed apply.

[Fixer]

Nope, I am pretty sure the GM will nerf any attempts at horseback combat. This is the brother of the last GM who screwed up the campaign and ticked everyone but the GM off. My character is probably fubar'd but I plan to make his going down as difficult as possible. He usually uses humanoid opponents against players, hence the disarm feat.

At 1st level it'd be a glaive. At 3rd level he'd pick up a Guisarme instead. At 4th he'd also pick up a Ranseur and just wield one or the other, depending. I didn't put that in there.

Planning on taking the Quick Draw at 6th (for the guisarme/ranseur tradeoff against BBEG) and then the Power Attack tree at 6th level for a while.

[Jasdoif]

Planning on taking the Quick Draw at 6th (for the guisarme/ranseur tradeoff against BBEG) and then the Power Attack tree at 6th level for a while.

Be advised that even with Quick Draw, putting a weapon away is a move action that provokes an AoO, unless you're simply dropping the weapon. And if you intend to drop the weapon, ask yourself if the DM will do anything to it while it's unattended.

[Fixer]

What can he do with a non-magical reach weapon if the only reason I'd drop it is if there are no other opponents around but the BBEG?

No, I can't think of anything and am wondering what you are thinking of.

[Jasdoif]

My main concern would be an invisible lackey running up, snatching it and carting it away. Or said lackey (or the BBEG) simply sundering it.

Not nearly as much of an issue if it isn't an expensive magical weapon, but I didn't know it wasn't magical when I posted.

[Fixer]

Yeah, this is low-level combat. Any magical enchantments he's going to get are going to be on his spiked armor. The Ranseur and Guisarme are for improving trip/disarm abilities.

Maybe a glove of storing in each hand, one with each weapon?

[BardicDuelist]

I would go the power attack route. For a grappler even. Deal loads of damage with your two handed reach weapon, then grapple them if you really want to.

IUA, Improved Grapple (Power Attack is good, but doesn't do much at first level)
Power Attack (You should get it)
Improved Trip
Combat Expertise (Now is when the AC will matter)

[ZeroNumerous]

Maybe you could take a level dip(or 8) of Barbarian?

[Vieux Vache]

I'm not fighter is the best class for you. (Or anything else for that matter.) In your case though I'd strongly consider taking your first level as monk. The bonus feat could be improved grapple, you save a feat on unarmed strike plus a d6 is better then a d4. Actually as a monk you could take improved grapple at first level regardless (you qualify for it, and have a feat at 1st anyways.) Which you could have stunning fist as well. Then you may want to consider a level or 19 in cleric. (Human avoids multi class penalty) Choose Kord, or go deity less. Either way the strength domain gives you enlarge person. So as a human monk 1/cleric one, while enlarged you'd have a grapple check of +12.

Now if your looking for a melee power house, I have to ask why your not playing a druid with augmented summoning, and natural spell?

Also off topic... you wouldn't by chance be the fixer that used to be on the WotC boards a long time ago, would you?

[Tor the Fallen]

I saw Sir Giacomo come up with an excellent core only fighter 20 build that could solo a Balor in a matter of rounds.

You're going to want to go, counter intuitively, both ranged AND melee. He pumped dex and wisdom to keep from failing will saves and getting hit. Combined with a Monk's belt, he had very high AC. Unfortunately, that's only viable at the vary high levels.

Now, if I were you, and there aren't RP reasons for choosing half-orc, I'd go gnome paladin + mount + charge. But you can't, so go dwarf. Put the 17 in str, the 14 in con, and the 16 in dex. Eventually get yourself a suit of mithral fullplate, and have the cleric put magic vestment on it.

I'd go with the greatsword for damage, and carry a longbow (get a str rated one asap). Feats you'll want will be improved initiative, point blank shot, precise shot, power attack, blind-fight, rapid shot, and the weapon focus/weapon specialization. Weapon focus (greatsword) and Greater Weapon Focus will be absolutely essential for using power attack, since you can't sink your AC for power attacking. Iron will may also be a good choice, and endurance lets you sleep in your armor. If core only includes the SRD, get improved precise shot (DMGII I think), and Manyshot (XPH) instead of iron will and endurance.

Here's the thread on Sir Giacomo's fighter build:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36333

[Matthew]

Since we are talking low level combat here, you are probably better off with a Weapon and Shield.

[Tor the Fallen]

Since we are talking low level combat here, you are probably better off with a Weapon and Shield.

2d6+1.5str on a charge power attacking for 2 or 3 (4 or 6) with weapon focus: greatsword ain't nothing to sneeze at. Especially with imp. initiative, cause you get to go first.

A spiked chain build would be a little more feat intensive, but you could go with trip/disarm/pray they're only humanoids.

[Yakk]

Monk 1: -2 HP, +2 Ref, +2 Will, +1 Feat, -1 BaB, Flurry of Blows, Wis to AC.

M1/F1: -2 HP, +2 Ref, +2 Will, +1 Fort, +1 Feat, -1 BaB, Flurry of Blows, Wis to AC.

M1/F2: -2 HP, +1 Ref, +1 Will, +2 Fort, +2 Feats, -1 BaB, Flurry of Blows, Wis to AC.

Basically, you get +1.5 feats, -2 HP, +1 and a bit to all of your saves, -1 BaB, the option to Flurry of Blows, -1 BaB, and Wisdom to AC when unarmed.

You can burn one of those feats on getting Stunning Fist, which is quite worthwhile.

You could also consider M2/F2.

M2/F2:
23.5 HP
+6F/+3R/+3W
+3 BaB
Flurry, 1d6 fist
Evasion
+5 feats

vs
F4:
+4F/+1R/+1W
+4 BaB
26.5 HP
+3 feats

So you give up 1 BaB and 3 HP in exchange for 2 feats, Flurry, 1d6 fist, 2F2R2W saves and evasion. Looks like a pretty good deal.

Note that you have to do monk levels first.

So at L 4 the 2M2F character can have:
Unarmed, Imp Grapple, Stunning Fist, Imp. Trip, Combat Expertise
Power Attack, Improved Disarm

For fluff, your character was a gladiator wrestler, bred for the ring. While traveling with your master, your caravan was attacked by Bandits. Your master died, but before he did he granted you your freedom.

Alignment: LN.

He gains another level of monk, but is unable to continue on the path after that -- he falls, and becomes a fighter.

[Matthew]

2d6+1.5str on a charge power attacking for 2 or 3 (4 or 6) with weapon focus: greatsword ain't nothing to sneeze at. Especially with imp. initiative, cause you get to go first.

A spiked chain build would be a little more feat intensive, but you could go with trip/disarm/pray they're only humanoids.

Sure, but chances are you are not going to need that extra damage at levels 1-4 more than the extra +2 AC from a Heavy Shield, since the creatures are likely low HP types. If it really comes down to it, you can always switch up to a Two Handed Long Sword, losing an average of 2.5 Damage.

[Clove]

Because of the strangeness of our current gaming group (the brother who messed up the last game wants to DM now) I am looking for a low-level build that will stand up to the test of levels.

I am asking for critique (CORE ONLY) on this Fighter.

Spoiler

Show

Half-Orc Fighter
Str 18 (16+2), Dex 14, Con 17, Int 13 (15-2), Wis 14, Cha 11 (13-2) [Rolled Good]
Fighter 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple
Will pick up spiked armor and wrestle things to death most of the time. Will also pick up a Glaive for reach attacks and a sling for ranged. +9 to grapple checks at 1st level is very nice.
Fighter 2: Combat Expertise
Fighter 3: Improved Trip
Knock 'em down with Trip then grapple while they are prone with the bonus attack.
Fighter 4: Improved Disarm
Knock 'em down with Trip then disarm them while they are prone and use any provoked attacks to initiate a grapple.

I also have the question if having the opponent prone grants any bonuses to the disarm and/or grapple attempts. I know they take a -4 to melee attacks (which should translate into a -4 penalty on the disarm roll) but grapple checks aren't really melee attacks and the -4 penalty to AC doesn't help either.

EDIT: Oh, come on, SOMEONE has to give low-level characters some thought.

Stand up to the test of levels? DM might be out to get you?

At level 1 get your Armor Class as high as possible. Even if you want to be a grappler, you can always drop your shield when you want to start a grapple if you have to. I agree strongly with the guy above who says to get a shield.

Using only the Core books? Figure out if you are going to run out of good feats to take, like the guy with the cheese-head mentions will happen. If you will run out of feats, have a plan for multi-classing out of fighter. Barbarian is the obvious choice if you are dead set on being a half-orc.

Someone else mentions his super-build being both ranged and melee. I find the one weakness of a warrior type character is they sometimes have trouble hitting the guy they want to hit when they are melee focused. You could work on having awesome ranged attacks as well. This would give you more of a battlefield controller type of character. Grappling troublesome characters, being able to gun down others from afar immediately and not need to waste time getting close if you need to.

If your DM wants to give you a hard time, and you focus on grappling... you know there will be situations where you can't grapple. So plenty of feats in missile weapons, like rapid shot will be useful. Maybe you don't need to worry about multi-classing after all. Taking good melee and ranged feats should keep you busy.

One level of barbarian would boost your movement speed though, allowing you to get to someone faster to grapple them! Assuming you are not going heavy armor that is. Your first level should probably be barbarian because of the D12 hit die and the x4 skill points. Even if there aren't any special skills you want, there are always listen and spot which always seem to come up during some tricky combats. And listen is a Barbarian class skill.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi everyone,

thanks for the praise, Tor the Fallen - likely, though, the lvl 20 fighter I did is not yet big help at lvls 1-4. Only the rough guideline that you need somehow to consider both ranged and melee tactics, plus be resilient to magic and have methods of overcoming opponents' superior moves (likely not that critical at low levels).

Since we are talking low level combat here, you are probably better off with a Weapon and Shield.

Now that is truly a good idea for a low-level fighter. Consider this: the fighter is the only class who gets the tower shield proficiency. That is already a +4 to AC at 1st level and if you abandon attacks, you have full cover (albeit not vs spells). You receie -2 to attacks, though, so it all depends on what you believe will be the style of the campaign (for instance, your DM often using enemy archers).

Otherwise, using the 2 feats (plus one of you are human) to get point blank shot and rapid shot and putting your highest stat into DEX gives you several advantages:
- you'll be one of the few who at 1st level who consistently can do 2 attacks/round (and doing almost double the damage of a magic missile with each hit! Plus, up to a reasonable range of 220ft or so...)
- you have high DEX, which helps your bad reflex (traps!) and also your AC since at 1st level, you cannot yet afford the big armour stuff

Otherwise, if you want to go the STR/grapple route you may wish to consider monk or the monk/cleric combo suggested above, but again, I guess, that depends on what kind of character you wish to play. Fighting with style matters ...

One thing on magic (in case it is fairly common in your DM's campaign): a fighter has a bad will save, which is poison vs the low-level echantment saveorsuck-spells in particular (charm, hold person). You can boost that with iron will, higher WIS and/or choosing a race/class that offers bonuses to saves (unlike the half-orc).
For instance, an archer elf barbarian 1/fighter1 with WIS 14 and iron will has a will save vs enchantment already at +8 if raging. Not bad...

- Giacomo

[Fixer]

Also off topic... you wouldn't by chance be the fixer that used to be on the WotC boards a long time ago, would you?

Probably. I always use the same nickname.

Let me rebuild the build. That Enlarge Person aspect is quite appealing.

[Matthew]

Now that is truly a good idea for a low-level fighter. Consider this: the fighter is the only class who gets the tower shield proficiency. That is already a +4 to AC at 1st level and if you abandon attacks, you have full cover (albeit not vs spells). You receie -2 to attacks, though, so it all depends on what you believe will be the style of the campaign (for instance, your DM often using enemy archers).

I cannot endorse the Tower Shield. I bloody hate it! Mechanically it's pretty much fine (apart from weighing 45 lbs!), but conceptually it drives me potty.

Still, a Tower Shield with Defensive Fighting will net you -6 AB for +6 AC, whilst a Heavy Shield with Defensive Fighting will only get you -4 AB for +4 AC.

Combat Expertise yields similarly interesting results.

[Tor the Fallen]

I would recommend against grappling, as at tends to not scale with levels as being useful. Pick up improved grapple, but don't try to specialize in it, as it won't pan out at later levels.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

My first DM loved to throw us against mook archers that took a turn or two to close with. Our dwarf fighter with his tower shield managed to not take an arrow the entire campaign; when he got into melee range and didn't need the AC against the fleeing archers, he'd just drop the shield and two-hand his dwarven waraxe. Against some enemies he didn't want to face (an ogre before it became an appropriate CR engagement), the full cover proved very nice for him while the rest of the party sniped away (in the case of the ogre, he blocked off a cave while we shot over his head).

The -2 to attack hurts bad, but in certain situations the tower shield can prove very useful.

I still don't recommend it as a main defense, but since you get proficiency as a fighter, I'd carry one in the event that you need to pull a Thermopylae-style "sit and be shot at" defense. Full cover is nothing to sneeze at.

[Matthew]

Oh yeah, treating it as an actual Pavise I can get on board with, it's the whole Melee aspect that rubs me the wrong way.