If a fresh Dwarf has a tower shield, is it scaled-down?

[cameron160502]

Made a new Dwarf fighter and I used my gold to get a tower shield. A normal tower shield cover a normal human quite a bit and a dwarf can't use something that big without it being a hindrance. So would it be scaled down?

[Jay R]

Made a new Dwarf fighter and I used my gold to get a tower shield. A normal tower shield cover a normal human quite a bit and a dwarf can't use something that big without it being a hindrance. So would it be scaled down?

It would be shorter, but not narrower, because a dwarf is as stocky as a human.

Talk to the DM, and make sure he understands your plan. You may have to pay extra to get it custom made, (or just buy one from a dwarven smith), or perhaps buy a regular heater shield as a tower shield for a dwarf.

But make sure that you and the DM are in agreement about what you bought while you're still in town. Don't discover the problem during a melee. I also urge you to explicitly say that you spar and train with it before the first fight.

Many misunderstandings between player and DM can be fixed by bringing them up early.

[Murmaider]

What system are you talking about? Dwarves in D&D 3.5 are in the same size category as humans and can use any weapon, or shield, that is made for humans, without taking any additional penalties.

[Jay R]

What system are you talking about? Dwarves in D&D 3.5 are in the same size category as humans and can use any weapon, or shield, that is made for humans, without taking any additional penalties.

None of which changes the fact that a shield six feet tall, with the arm straps four feet from the bottom, would be difficult for a four-foot-tall character to wield.

You're right that this complication isn't mentioned in the rules. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't think about it.

[Keltest]

None of which changes the fact that a shield six feet tall, with the arm straps four feet from the bottom, would be difficult for a four-foot-tall character to wield.

You're right that this complication isn't mentioned in the rules. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't think about it.

I mean, if you want to bring reality into it, dwarves shouldn't be able to wear the same set of full plate that they just took off of a dead human either. Heck, a different human shouldn't be able to without at least having it adjusted for them. But who wants to bother going into town to modify their equipment before they can even use it?

Also, a six foot tall tower shield would in fact be bigger than most humans. the D20srd indicates that they are typically smaller than the bearer, though not by much.

[Honest Tiefling]

None of which changes the fact that a shield six feet tall, with the arm straps four feet from the bottom, would be difficult for a four-foot-tall character to wield.

You're right that this complication isn't mentioned in the rules. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't think about it.

I really feel like that the sterotypical dwarf fighter would see this less of a 'problem' and more of a 'challenge'. Use some basic armorer skills to make the handholds easier to grab and go to town with a shield bigger then you are. You're not a pansy tree-huggin' elf who can't grow a beard, after all.

[Jay R]

Also, a six foot tall tower shield would in fact be bigger than most humans. the D20srd indicates that they are typically smaller than the bearer, though not by much.

OK - nitpick noted and accepted. Call it 5 1/2 feet or whatever. the point is that a tower sheet is strapped to the arm and goes down nearly to the ground, and a human sized one is different from a dwarf-sized one.

I mean, if you want to bring reality into it, dwarves shouldn't be able to wear the same set of full plate that they just took off of a dead human either. Heck, a different human shouldn't be able to without at least having it adjusted for them. But who wants to bother going into town to modify their equipment before they can even use it?

Let's start by dispensing with the red herring. We were asked about a specific situation, and he didn't take it off a dead human. He's talking about one he bought, with gold. But as I said, that's a red herring. Let's get back to the main point.

Some of us actually like bringing some level of realism into the game. In my game, if a dwraf picks up a human heater shield, I would treat it like a Tower shield except for encumbrance. A human tower shield wouldn't work well for him. In another game, my ranger is currently using a giant's knife as a falchion. Some of us think that this kind of thing is fun. If you don't, then great - play it your way, and have fun with it.

But in this thread, we are being asked by somebody who actually does want to, or suspects that his GM may want to. In that case, we should assume the possibility that that level of realism is what we're taking about.

[theasl]

If he bought it from a store, then there's even less reason to be concerned about any differences. Just say that the store has human-sized tower shields and dwarf-sized tower shields, which are mechanically the same, and then buy the latter.

If it was gold from character creation, then there is zero reason to be concerned about any differences. The dwarf got the tower shield custom-made to fit them, the dwarf has a heirloom dwarf-sized tower shield, the dwarf bought a dwarf-sized tower shield, whatever. It's mechanically the same. The only difference is in the fluff.

[Jay R]

If he bought it from a store, then there's even less reason to be concerned about any differences...

... as long as the GM agrees with you.

I repeat, "Talk to the DM."

[theasl]

... as long as the GM agrees with you.

I repeat, "Talk to the DM."

That goes without saying...

[wumpus]

That goes without saying...

Right. Old school D&D thing happened "because the DM willed it". Later school happened "because the player willed it". Just don't assume because you are playing 3.5/pathfinder/whatever things happen as the player wills, the DM will still have the last word. 5.0 is written to allow *any* school gameplay.

[VoxRationis]

I mean, if you want to bring reality into it, dwarves shouldn't be able to wear the same set of full plate that they just took off of a dead human either. Heck, a different human shouldn't be able to without at least having it adjusted for them. But who wants to bother going into town to modify their equipment before they can even use it?

Also, a six foot tall tower shield would in fact be bigger than most humans. the D20srd indicates that they are typically smaller than the bearer, though not by much.

Actually, several editions of D&D have noted specifically that plate armor needs to be resized if you capture it off of someone else.

[Martin Greywolf]

I don;t know what shields you guys use, but my group has one that can be used equally well by a big guy almost 2 meters tall, 190 cm me and someone head and a half shorter than me. Obviously, you get the best performance out of it if it's tailored to you specifically - which any manufacturer would do. All goods in middle ages ware made more or less individually, and were, as a result tailored without much additional cost (okay, plate for 160 cm and 210 cm dudes probably had different price tags, but likely not by much).

Tower shileds, or to call them by their proper name, pavaises, were of two types. One was put on the ground and braced - it was never meant to be carried in hand while fighting, and was more of a passive barrier. The other kind was a large shield and varied in size, starting at smaller than heather shield, the largest ones looked like this. You have a solid 50 cm reserve before it starts hitting the ground, and remember, this is extreme size for a hand pavaise.

[Skorj]

None of which changes the fact that a shield six feet tall, with the arm straps four feet from the bottom, would be difficult for a four-foot-tall character to wield.

You're right that this complication isn't mentioned in the rules. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't think about it.

A bigger conversation to have upfront with the DM is "are we playing Dungeons and Dragons, or Special Cases and Spreadsheets?". Both are games some people want to play, so it's one of the biggest questions when starting a new campaign - do we want to track details beyond the minimum required by the rules?

Different people find differing things fun, after all, but make the expectation explicit. The 3.x rules had moved far away from the early days of tracking every little detail that might be used against you, simply to keep people's time focused on interactive gameplay, not record keeping. But the specific campaign is what the group agrees it will be. (Same answer to that long "but my character would have" thread - track every little detail or don't, but agree up front.)

[A Tad Insane]

Simple. A dwarf would hold it sideways.

[Kami2awa]

Tower Shields in the D&d world clearly have hinged or telescopic bits at the top and bottom, allowing them to be resized for anyone in size category M.

[Knaight]

A bigger conversation to have upfront with the DM is "are we playing Dungeons and Dragons, or Special Cases and Spreadsheets?". Both are games some people want to play, so it's one of the biggest questions when starting a new campaign - do we want to track details beyond the minimum required by the rules?

Caring about equipment sizes hardly makes it special cases and spreadsheets - the spreadsheets tend to come in once you get into detailed tracking of resources that get depleted. If you track arrows, blades getting worn down, armor rust, detailed food and water, etc. then it gets into Special Cases and Spreadsheets, acknowledging that dwarves are shaped a bit differently isn't.

[The_Jette]

Caring about equipment sizes hardly makes it special cases and spreadsheets - the spreadsheets tend to come in once you get into detailed tracking of resources that get depleted. If you track arrows, blades getting worn down, armor rust, detailed food and water, etc. then it gets into Special Cases and Spreadsheets, acknowledging that dwarves are shaped a bit differently isn't.

Acknowledging that Dwarves are shaped different isn't a problem. What you're doing is turning the shape of a Dwarf into a mechanic for how shields and armor work, which is also not a problem. At the same time, though, it isn't exactly RAW to say that a Dwarf and a Human can't use the same Tower Shield because the Dwarf is shorter. If you want to do that in your games for a bit of realism, that's fine. But, in 3rd/3.5, Dwarves were medium creatures that could use medium sized arms, armor, and shields. If you have a problem with a dwarf strapping a tower shield onto his arms when the straps are 4' off the ground, he flipped it over. That way, the straps are only 1.5' to 2' off the ground. That's as far as you have to go, and even that is farther than the rules say you have to go.

In the end, though, this is a question that needs to be worked out between player and DM to ensure that the DM doesn't want more bookkeeping/realism in the game than the rules require.

[FreddyNoNose]

Acknowledging that Dwarves are shaped different isn't a problem. What you're doing is turning the shape of a Dwarf into a mechanic for how shields and armor work, which is also not a problem. At the same time, though, it isn't exactly RAW to say that a Dwarf and a Human can't use the same Tower Shield because the Dwarf is shorter. If you want to do that in your games for a bit of realism, that's fine. But, in 3rd/3.5, Dwarves were medium creatures that could use medium sized arms, armor, and shields. If you have a problem with a dwarf strapping a tower shield onto his arms when the straps are 4' off the ground, he flipped it over. That way, the straps are only 1.5' to 2' off the ground. That's as far as you have to go, and even that is farther than the rules say you have to go.

In the end, though, this is a question that needs to be worked out between player and DM to ensure that the DM doesn't want more bookkeeping/realism in the game than the rules require.

Yes, does it add to the fun?

[Slipperychicken]

I'd say no: dwarves are especially well-suited to carrying heavier armor without being particularly bothered. Also, in dnd at least dwarves are not that much smaller than humans. A tolkien dwarf or disney dwarf should certainly be penalized, but not a dnd dwarf.

Dnd dwarves might generally make slightly smaller shields for their convenience, but I would say that such a dwarf could employ a human's tower shield without penalty.