A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
You can get A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2 now at Gumroad
Results 1 to 21 of 21
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    I Love Feats. They are little alterations to the rules and they interface with class features in some really fun and strange ways. Sometimes their utility is circumspect and sometimes they just stink. I'm looking at you Battle Dance. However, there is just something really satisfying about the interplay of feats and rules to produce illogical and unintended effects.

    What is this?
    So this is the "Optimize this feat" discussion, wherein we work together to plumb the clever and amazing uses for feats in ways the designers could have only dreamt of. Arbitrary credit seems to be important to sway people's incentives, so I have devised the following system to award credit to people who help explore the possibilities of how to use a feat. I'm developing this pseudo-contest on the fly, so rules are subject to change.


    All participants in the optimization endeavor post directly into the thread. They may post as many times as they want, just like any thread where you volunteer your ideas. After a week or so, the thread will be evaluated and participants will be assigned a score. That score represents how helpful or novel the poster was in their analysis of a feat's uses, abuses, interactions, and limitations. The rubric by which points are assigned to posters is developed below. The poster's who are most helpful will be announced after a week, and have their name highlighted in bold and in a font color other than black! The guest judge will try to remain interactive in the process, because the contest element to me is secondary to extracting the maximum amount of versatility and power out of the feat resource.

    Point Allocation Rubric
    The following list is not exhaustive of how points will be allocated, as I imagine that there will be weird end cases.

    Suggestion of a non-overtly obvious class feature, spell, feat, skill trick, psi-power, magic/psionic item, or monster that interplays with the feat to produce an exaggerated result.

    Overt Obviousness will be judged by me, but I will generally allocate points generously, What I am trying to avoid is people suggesting feat interplays that are non-exceptional and thus cluttering the thread with lame and uninteresting things. 1 pt

    If the suggestion is particularly powerful or clever, an additional point may be allocated to reward the optimizerly thinking. This decision is mine, although I will be swayed by what seems like genuine "co-signing," where other posters in the thread really glom onto the idea and develop it further.

    A small build stub, between 5-12 levels, that includes a small write up of how the feat interplays with a few class features, racial features, spells, powers and feats to produce an effect that is far beyond the scope of what the feat of the week is capable of providing on its own. 5 points. +/- 1 point.

    A rather undeveloped stub may only receive 4 points if it is a slightly modified rehash of a previous stub. A rather ingenious stub can earn an extra point. In some cases, you may actually do both! All of these are judgement calls as adjudicated by myself.

    A fully functional optimization of the feat that ramps it up to its maximum power level where there is no way to possibly make it more amazing, including a 20 level build that follows the same format as iron chef dishes, but with minimal write up, is worthy of 10-12 points.

    As the Chair, I will remain interactive throughout the thread, even suggesting a few builds. Commenting on these is fine and all of the rubric points apply to those as well. This means that the thread is not a totally objective competition.

    A display of relevant rules expertise that shapes the discussion is worthy of 0 or 1 point. This is the "squishiest" criteria, and will only be allocated when it corrects part of the conversation that is going too far off the rails. Particularly nasty interchanges about RAW may lead to abdication of this point. Being incorrect isn't an immoral offense, so I want an atmosphere where suggestions are flying but staying generally within the real bounds of dnd play. RAW discussions tend to get a little too personal, and hopefully this arbitrary point system can circumvent that. Plus, seeing as how extensive the rules system is, it is easy for me to get excited about how to make an idea work and get lost about the details.

    BIAS
    I am not a perfect judge. I prefer mundane to magical. I prefer Tier 3 and below to Tier 2 and up. But I do love me some dysfunction. So optimization that requires a lot of high level spells or powers (anything level 4 or up) will be less impressive to me. Go ahead and make your suggestion, I will try to police these biases in myself, but understand that these are factors that are in play.

    Other information
    All of that said, I have an exhibited tendency to be more forgiving/rules lax, whereas some of you are far more RAW heavy. I really do appreciate ya'll, so don't be afraid to reign in some of the theory and ground it in what is explicitly allowed. Different tables play the game differently. And this forum tends to highlight super polarized ends of this permissiveness spectrum that spans from "RAW to a fault" - "So ridiculously theoretically unbalanced beyond any DM's willingness to allow". Most play tends to be in the middle, if not a little skewed towards RAW: but not all play. With that in mind, if requested, if you are asked to assume that the theoretical DM handwaves your criticism as a special exception, please update your approach and proceed from there if you would like to continue to parse the possibilities that a feat offers. In this way, we can develop the full spectrum of what a feat can do.

    This week's Feat is
    Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    This endeavor concludes at 11:59PM Eastern Standard Time on April 15th, 2017


    Optimize this Feat 1:Wanderer's Diplomacy: VAZ
    Optimize this Feat 2: Conductivity: ben-zayb
    Optimize this Feat 3: Swim-by Attack: WhamBamSam
    Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis WhamBamSam
    Optimize this Feat 5: Hammer and Piton Zetapup
    Optimize this Feat 6: Residual Rebound ben-zayb
    Optimize this Feat 7: Mark of Phlegethos : Darrin
    Optimize this Feat 8: Seelie Court Noble Kelir: Jowgen
    Optimize this Feat 9: Animal Friends: Troacctid
    Optimize this Feat 10A: Primary Contact: Jormengand & WhamBamSam
    Optimize this Feat 10B lightning round: Einhander from PHB2: Zaq

    Optimize this Feat 11: Supremely Confident from Dragon #335 p.88: To Be Determined
    Optimize this Feat 12: Spirit Sense from Heroes of Horror p.124: Jormengand
    Optimize this Feat #13: Cards Over Swords from the Three Dragon Ante Web: Darrin & Morcleon
    Optimize this Feat #14: Dual Planes Summons from Dragon Magazine #313: To Be Determined
    Optimize this Feat #15: Formation Expert from Complete Warrior: Darrin
    Optimize this feat #16: Bloodspiked Charger: WhamBamSam
    Optimize this Feat #17: Betrayal of the Spirit linked from Dragon Magazine #336: Menzath
    Optimize this Feat #18: Truebond from DMG2: unseenmage
    Optimize this feat #19: Eldritch Corruption from Heroes of Horror: Darrin.
    Optimize this Feat #20: Imbued Healing from Complete Champion: Lateral & Troacctid
    Optimize this Feat #21: Create Spectral Spawn from Dragons of Faerun Web Enhancement: WhamBamSam
    Optimize this Feat #22: Pain Mastery from Savage Species: WhamBamSam and Menzath

    Upcoming Schedule:
    Spoiler: Upcoming Schedule
    Show

    Don't post your ideas for these on the wrong competition. Save em. Unleash your brilliance on us.
    Optimize this feat #24: Ragewild Fighting from Races of Eberron p.118
    Optimize this feat #25: Mastery of the Dead from Player's Guide to Eberron p.

    Other feats in the pool: detach from Savage Species, Elder Giant magic, stamp, battleshifter training, Multi-tasking, Tainted Druid, Spell Mantle (LEoF p.112), Cleave from the SRD


    Join the wingstorm resistance!!! The one true Optimize this Feat #23 is wingstorm. We, the disembodied emotional resonance of wanting to argue about dragonwraught kobolds but not getting to will never back down!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    The feat text is below

    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    WINGSTORM [MONSTROUS]
    You can flatten targets with blasts of air from your wings.

    Prerequisite: Str 13, fly speed 20 ft., Large size, Hover, Power Attack.

    Benefit: As a full-round action, you can hover in place and use your wings to create a blast of air in a cylinder with a radius and maximum height based on your size. The wind strength also depends on your size, as shown on the table below.

    Size Wind Effect Radius Max. Height
    Large Severe 10' 40'
    Huge Windstorm 20' 80'
    Gargantuan Hurricane 30' 100'
    Colossal Tornado 40' 120'


    Because the blast of air only lasts for your turn, creatures ignore the checked effect unless they are airborne (in which case they are blown back 1d6 × 5 feet).

    Special: You can use this feat for a full round instead of as a full-round action. If you do, the wind lasts until your next turn (and you can choose to continue the effect during your next turn). Anyone in or entering the cylinder is affected. Because you are producing a continuous blast of air, the checked effect works normally while the wind lasts (checked creatures cannot move forward against the force of the wind, or they are blown back 1d6 × 5 feet if airborne).
    Actually, this feat was updated in Draconomicon p.75:

    You can flatten targets with blasts of air from your wings.


    Prerequisites: Str 13, dragon, fly speed 20, Hover, Power Attack, size Large or larger.

    Benefit: As a full-round action, you can hover in place and use your wings to create a blast of air in a cylinder with a radius and height of 10 feet times your age category.
    The wind blows from the center of your body toward the outside edge at the bottom of the cylinder. The force of the wind depends on your size, as indicated below. For the effects of high winds, see Table 3–24 on page 95 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide.


    Dragon Size Wind Force
    Large Severe
    Huge Windstorm
    Gargantuan Hurricane
    Colossal Tornado



    Because the blast of air only lasts for your turn, creatures ignore the checked effect unless they are airborne (in which case they are blown back 1d6 X 5 feet).

    Special: You can elect to keep the wind in effect for longer than your current turn. If you do, the wind lasts until your next turn (and you can opt to continue the
    effect during your next turn). Anyone in or entering the cylinder is affected. Because you are producing a continuous blast of air, the checked effect works normally while the wind lasts (checked creatures cannot move forward against the force of the wind, or they are blown back (1d6X 5 feet if airborne).


    Have at it.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Thurbane's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Terra Australis
    Gender
    Male

    Exclamation Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    FYI latest version of this feat is in Draconomicon. Not sure if there were any significant changes.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    FYI latest version of this feat is in Draconomicon. Not sure if there were any significant changes.
    Thanks. I'll look it up. Oooh. Dragons only... that...kinda kills a lot of momentum.

    I'll put it to ya'll. Should we swap feats out? This one isn't the winner that I thought it was. If the dragon only requisite is fine by all of you, I'm fine with it too.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold is a great Wyrm dragon and with Stoneblessed (Goliath) and Goliath Barbarian Mountain rage should be able to grow to Large.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2016

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    I'm afraid it will end with the first DWK build that will come up ^^

    I had something like a DWK Wu-Jen in mind:

    Size to Colossal + Body outside Body + epic feats = profit?

    edit: got swordsaged -.-
    Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2017-03-28 at 12:37 AM.
    Sakon & Ukon (from Naruto) Ukon can join/leave any body! *new*
    Uchiha, Itachi: Master of the Sharingan
    Orochimaru, the ultimate villain
    Papa Smurf a Redcap Lion of Talisid (ubercharger/gish)
    Hellfire Escalation Glaivelock a Killer Kobold build
    Almighty Claw of Malar monk/warlock gish (with minor DBZ-SSJ fluff)
    TO: BoBaFeat Body outside Body & Void Disciple 4 to break the game.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Inevitability's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Planes of Law

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    Quote Originally Posted by Malroth View Post
    Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold is a great Wyrm dragon and with Stoneblessed (Goliath) and Goliath Barbarian Mountain rage should be able to grow to Large.
    Mountain Rage and Stoneblessed in no way increase your actual size by two categories.

    Of course, there's the interpretation that being a dragonwrought kobold of sufficient age turns you Colossal on its own...
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2017-03-28 at 01:08 AM.
    Creator of the LA-assignment thread.

    Extended signature!

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Venger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    Several different directions to go on this:

    1) the size increases, obviously. boost your size by your method of choice (giant size as mentioned) and then blow everyone's mind/houses down
    2) use bestow curse on yourself and advance your desired number of age categories to get more powerful wind
    3) use control weather once you've got the tornado started and keep it going, move it around, make it worse, exacerbate a smaller wind and turn it into a tornado, etc. use concentration tricks (solicit psicrystal, etc) to have someone else move the tornado(es) around while you work on creating more.
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

    Check out my new sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New book coming soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
    Iron Chef Medals!
    Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Uncle Pine's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    As per ELH, a dragonwrought kobold that reached venerable age at 1st level becomes Colossal at 4th. Add Improved Dragon Wings (you can skip Dragon Wings) and a couple of flaws and you can qualify for Wingstorm at 4th level, although you'll have to wait until 6th to select it unless you add some feats shenanigans.
    Extended signature here. Contains: 2 avatars, 3 quotes, a doggo and his friends.

    Kitchen Crashers: an adventure building Iron Chef - First edition running 20/04/18-18/05/18.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Troll in the Playground
     
    WhamBamSam's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Michigan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    Quote Originally Posted by Malroth View Post
    Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold is a great Wyrm dragon and with Stoneblessed (Goliath) and Goliath Barbarian Mountain rage should be able to grow to Large.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Mountain Rage and Stoneblessed in no way increase your actual size by two categories.

    Of course, there's the interpretation that being a dragonwrought kobold of sufficient age turns you Colossal on its own...
    Mountain Rage sets your size to exactly Large. Problem is, Dragons don't qualify for Stoneblessed.

    A Changeling with a flaw can take Racial Emulation and Dragonwrought at first level and be able to switch between types as needed. You might be able to achieve it without flaws if you can cheese the replacement of your first Humanoid HD. You'd start as a Humanoid 1 with Racial Emulation and become a Half-Elf Paragon 1 with your new bonus feat going to Dragonwrought (might require a Psionic Reformation, but at least not a Chaos Shuffle).

    One can Polymorph into an Ibrandlin at CL 9 or 10. A Mortal Hunter 8 can do so permanently assuming you can get some flesh from one, if temporary qualification is an issue. Polymorph changes type, so that makes you a Gargantuan Dragon. They're flightless, but that can be solved with automatic qualification for Improved Dragon Wings or a number of other ways.

    Venger's list of things to do once you've gotten over the hurdle of being a giant dragon is pretty good. I'd also add the fear effect from drawing a Pandemonic Silver weapon (CWar). With free action drawing of some kind, you can even do it in the same round you create your Wingstorm.
    Last edited by WhamBamSam; 2017-03-28 at 11:55 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Pine View Post
    As per ELH, a dragonwrought kobold that reached venerable age at 1st level becomes Colossal at 4th. Add Improved Dragon Wings (you can skip Dragon Wings) and a couple of flaws and you can qualify for Wingstorm at 4th level, although you'll have to wait until 6th to select it unless you add some feats shenanigans.
    I've never heard this before how does this work?

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Venger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    Quote Originally Posted by Malroth View Post
    I've never heard this before how does this work?
    Dragonwrought changes your type to dragon. When dragons advance age categories, they get big. that's pretty much it.
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

    Check out my new sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New book coming soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
    Iron Chef Medals!
    Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Darrin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cleveland, OH
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    Dragonwrought changes your type to dragon. When dragons advance age categories, they get big. that's pretty much it.
    You're kinda skipping over the 100+ pages with people arguing about whether or not dragonwrought kobolds really get age categories as true dragons, or if the designers were hitting that ol' hobbit pipeweed a little too hard.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    Does dragonblood allow you to use this feat?

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Venger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    You're kinda skipping over the 100+ pages with people arguing about whether or not dragonwrought kobolds really get age categories as true dragons, or if the designers were hitting that ol' hobbit pipeweed a little too hard.
    I mean, judging from Malroth's question, my impression was more that he was asking "what trick are you referring to, exactly?" since Uncle Pine said "when you get old, you get big" as a simple matter of course, so I thought he was just asking what the trick was rather than inquiring as to its legality.

    RAW, of course they do, but like drown-healing, good luck using it at a real table. You get epic spells too, but it didn't seem germane, so I didn't mention it so the thread doesn't become about that.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    Does dragonblood allow you to use this feat?
    Quote Originally Posted by dragon magic page 4
    The dragonblood subtype does not confer the dragon type or any traits associated with that type.
    Dragons can automatically take dragonblooded feats, but the inverse is not true.
    Last edited by Venger; 2017-03-28 at 01:58 PM.
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

    Check out my new sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New book coming soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
    Iron Chef Medals!
    Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Darrin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cleveland, OH
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    Does dragonblood allow you to use this feat?
    No.

    Races of the Dragon p. 4:

    "The subtype qualifies a creature to use magic items normally only usable by dragons, and qualifies the creature to take feats that have the subtype as a prerequisite. [...] The dragonblood subtype does not confer the dragon type or any traits associated with that type."

    The Dragonblood subtype does not qualify you for feats that require the Dragon type.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Uncle Pine's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    You're kinda skipping over the 100+ pages with people arguing about whether or not dragonwrought kobolds really get age categories as true dragons, or if the designers were hitting that ol' hobbit pipeweed a little too hard.
    That's because the rules for Advanced Dragons don't care about whether you're a true dragon or not: you just need to be a dragon and then you pick a list of benefits according to the size your species is at wyrmling stage and whether or not it normally reaches Colossal size. For the record, dragonwrought kobolds are Small dragons when wyrmling and never reach Colossal size during the course of their 12 age categories. Again, whether they are true dragons or just dragons is irrelevant. Source.
    Extended signature here. Contains: 2 avatars, 3 quotes, a doggo and his friends.

    Kitchen Crashers: an adventure building Iron Chef - First edition running 20/04/18-18/05/18.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    Stepping in now to prevent a derail.

    Pro Dragonwrought crowd can continue to optimize. If your table allows it, then you deserve to see some optimization ideas.

    Anti dragonwrought crowd should divert energies towards optimizing the feat in non dragonwrought ways.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    I'm going to call a mulligan on this one. This wasn't a good feat because...I didn't check the errata.

    Optimize this feat #23:Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40 now official declared illegitimate.
    The one true optimize this feat #23 will be up in a few.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Darrin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cleveland, OH
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    I'm going to call a mulligan on this one. This wasn't a good feat because...I didn't check the errata.
    Is... there any errata for Savage Species? I'm looking at the archived errata page, and I'm not seeing it.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Thurbane's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Terra Australis
    Gender
    Male

    Exclamation Re: Optimize this Feat #23: Wingstorm from Savage Species p.40

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Is... there any errata for Savage Species? I'm looking at the archived errata page, and I'm not seeing it.
    I think he's probably referring to the fact the feat was updated in Draconomicon.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •