Help for clarifications on rules

[WildCard578]

Hello all, I can't make my mind over on some rules and I hope you can help me with the matter since our playing is seriously hindered by our rule interpretations, which may greatly vary from one player to another.

On with the issues:

1) an elan's resting time to replenish power points

One player of my group is asserting that his elan only needs 4 hours of sleep to regain power points as per the racial traits.
I think that the rules are different and she only needs 4 hours of trance to gain the benefits of a full rest, yet "(s)he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before regaining power points" [xph p63, almost before the end of page].
Am I correct in ruling this by my reading and not his?

2) cyclonic blast's damage and knockback effect

Another player is using this spell with the targets and objects in the AoE not having a saving throw for damage because it's not stated in the first paragraph of the spell description and allowing them the saving throw only for the knockback effect in the second paragraph.
In my opinion his interpretation is wrong and the all targets should have the saving throw for damage as per spell description heading ("Saving Throw: Reflex half") and, only in case of a failed saving throw, are also subject to being knocked back ("Creatures who fail their Reflex saving throw [...] are additionally in danger of being knocked back by the force of the wind").
Again, is my understanding correct or not?

3) DR

The same player of point one above is also against my ruling of the DR applying to each blow, stating that in case of a full attack I should apply DR only once since it's a full-round action. I have researched the rule a bit on the core rulebooks and it looks to me that it applies to each attack regardless of the action type:
- "a barbarian gains the ability to shrug off some amount of injury from each blow or attack" (PHB, barbarian's damage reduction class feature description)
- "the monk gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows her to ignore the first 10 points of from any attack made by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction" (PHB, monk's perfect self class feature description)
- "[...] a werewolf ’s damage reduction is 10/silver, meaning the werewolf ignores the first 10 points of damage from every normal attack unless the weapon is made with alchemical silver" (PHB glossary)
- "[...]the werewolf’s entry reads “damage reduction 10/silver”: each time a foe hits a werewolf with a weapon, the damage dealt by that attack is reduced by 10 points (to a minimum of 0)." (DMG glossary)
Again, which interpretation is correct?

Thanks for your inputs on the matter.

[DEMON]

2) cyclonic blast's damage and knockback effect

Another player is using this spell with the targets and objects in the AoE not having a saving throw for damage because it's not stated in the first paragraph of the spell description and allowing them the saving throw only for the knockback effect in the second paragraph.
In my opinion his interpretation is wrong and the all targets should have the saving throw for damage as per spell description heading ("Saving Throw: Reflex half") and, only in case of a failed saving throw, are also subject to being knocked back ("Creatures who fail their Reflex saving throw [...] are additionally in danger of being knocked back by the force of the wind").
Again, is my understanding correct or not?

I belive you are correct.

The Reflex half should apply to damage and the bull rush is an additional effect that applies to those targets who did not save for half damage.

Otherwise, the Saving Throw entry should read something like "Reflex partial", I think.

3) DR

The same player of point one above is also against my ruling of the DR applying to each blow, stating that in case of a full attack I should apply DR only once since it's a full-round action. I have researched the rule a bit on the core rulebooks and it looks to me that it applies to each attack regardless of the action type:
- "a barbarian gains the ability to shrug off some amount of injury from each blow or attack" (PHB, barbarian's damage reduction class feature description)
- "the monk gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows her to ignore the first 10 points of from any attack made by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction" (PHB, monk's perfect self class feature description)
- "[...] a werewolf ’s damage reduction is 10/silver, meaning the werewolf ignores the first 10 points of damage from every normal attack unless the weapon is made with alchemical silver" (PHB glossary)
- "[...]the werewolf’s entry reads “damage reduction 10/silver”: each time a foe hits a werewolf with a weapon, the damage dealt by that attack is reduced by 10 points (to a minimum of 0)." (DMG glossary)
Again, which interpretation is correct?

Thanks for your inputs on the matter.

You are correct.

DR applies each time one takes damage (provided it's the kind of damage he/she has DR for).

So, for example, if the player's full attack consisted of 10 arrows hitting the target, DR would apply 10 times.

[KillianHawkeye]

You are correct on all three things.

Elans' meditation is similar to elves' trancing. They get their rest in four hours, but still need the same 8 hours to replenish spells and power points like everyone else.

If a spell's Saving Throw entry reads "Reflex half", it doesn't need to mention it anywhere else in the text. The text of the Fireball spell also fails to mention the saving throw when describing the effects of being hit by one. It doesn't need to, it already said it in the header.

Damage Reduction is checked per hit, not per action. If you Full Attack and hit four times, your damage will be nerfed four times if you're not using the right kind of weapon. The same goes for Energy Resistance and elemental spells/attacks.

[WildCard578]

Thank you for your inputs so far.

I will wait for some more before seeking the issues' closure with my players.

[Dagroth]

Thank you for your inputs so far.

I will wait for some more before seeking the issues' closure with my players.

You are 100% correct on all three points. You even provided the answers yourself.

[Uncle Pine]

Thank you for your inputs so far.

I will wait for some more before seeking the issues' closure with my players.

The three posters above, as well as you, are correct on all three issues. Additionally, remember that DR doesn't apply to energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

[Fizban]

You are correct on all counts, have more confidence.

Cyclonic Blast might still cause issues though- unattended objects only get saving throws if they're magical, which means Cyclonic Blast doesn't need to deny most objects their saves on account of them not having any. Since it deals full damage (minus hardness), it's quite capable of shredding medium and smaller objects unless they've got a lot of hp. Most people tend to forget that AoE spells will annihilate unattended objects, including their own loot- fireballing a dead guy should cost you a pretty penny.

[frogglesmash]

You are correct on all counts, have more confidence.

Cyclonic Blast might still cause issues though- unattended objects only get saving throws if they're magical, which means Cyclonic Blast doesn't need to deny most objects their saves on account of them not having any. Since it deals full damage (minus hardness), it's quite capable of shredding medium and smaller objects unless they've got a lot of hp. Most people tend to forget that AoE spells will annihilate unattended objects, including their own loot- fireballing a dead guy should cost you a pretty penny.

It's worth noting that as far as energy damage is concerned, only sonic, and acid deal full damage to objects. Fire and electricity do half damage, and cold does one quarter damage

[WildCard578]

Thank you all for your inputs, they're greatly appreciated.

Additionally, remember that DR doesn't apply to energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

As I see it, that's generally true: those kind of attacks are only affected by energy resistances, spell resistance and/or some other class feature/special ability.

But, according to how DR is working (and worded), I think there are a few spells (and spell-like abilities) that could still be affected by it, depending on how they deal damage and the kind of damage they deal.

For example, such spells could include (core rulebooks only): earthquake, evard's black tentacles, magic stone, mordenkainen's hound, spike growth, spike stones, transmute mud to rock, wall of thorns, and (partially) ice storm, meteor storm, and hailstones among others (not taking into consideration all the summonings).

Ironically, in addition to all the issues detailed in the first post, player 1 also used crystal shard (a lvl 1 power) which, in light of my previous statement, I deem a bit ambiguous about itself: "Upon manifesting this power, you propel a razor-sharp crystal shard at your target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target. The ray deals 1d6 points of piercing damage."

In this new case, I think DR could be applicable since it's a ranged touch attack and it deals piercing damage. What really baffles me about it is that the power is described as a ray rather than a single missile projectile (i.e. more like scorching ray than like melf's acid arrow) and this makes a difference both for the attack and for the spell effects.

I let it slid and took full damage by treating it as a spell in regard of the DR mechanic but I would like to know your opinion on this new topic too (also because of the DR vs spells issue I raised earlier in this post).

Cyclonic Blast might still cause issues though- unattended objects only get saving throws if they're magical, which means Cyclonic Blast doesn't need to deny most objects their saves on account of them not having any. Since it deals full damage (minus hardness), it's quite capable of shredding medium and smaller objects unless they've got a lot of hp. Most people tend to forget that AoE spells will annihilate unattended objects, including their own loot- fireballing a dead guy should cost you a pretty penny.

Yes, that's a good point to raise. Coincidentally, player 2 cast cyclonic blast while in a towered inn suite's balcony and I had a bit of trouble to determine whether the railing held or not (fortunately, it did by being a large item and because of its hardness, thus greatly reducing the damage taken) and she didn't knockback the vampire spawns AND the railing out of the building into a freefall.

It's worth noting that as far as energy damage is concerned, only sonic, and acid deal full damage to objects. Fire and electricity do half damage, and cold does one quarter damage.

Another good point made, I didn't remember the differences between them myself. Furthermore, I think that you are talking about elemental energy only. Force, which could be regarded as a peculiar kind of energy itself, does normal damage against objects (unless otherwise noted, see magic missile). Additionally, positive and negative energy are both completely ineffective against objects.

Sorry for the long post, I wanted to reply to your comments yet I raised some other issues.

Anyway, thanks for your inputs.

[Bronk]

But, according to how DR is working (and worded), I think there are a few spells (and spell-like abilities) that could still be affected by it, depending on how they deal damage and the kind of damage they deal.

For example, such spells could include (core rulebooks only): earthquake, evard's black tentacles, magic stone, mordenkainen's hound, spike growth, spike stones, transmute mud to rock, wall of thorns, and (partially) ice storm, meteor storm, and hailstones among others (not taking into consideration all the summonings).

I do the same thing in my games, just for sanity's sake. For me, the big culprit is 'Deadfall', which is an instantaneous spell that creates a bunch of completely real dead logs in the air. The now completely real logs then fall, which is what deals the damage. Technically, they still shouldn't be affected by DR, but it's less confusing the other way.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, interactions between damage dealing mage and Damage Reduction have a few notable issues. According to the rules, no spell or SLA is subject to DR regardless of the type of damage they do (even slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning damage types). Psionic powers, however, ARE subject to DR when they do physical damage types.

It's inconsistent, and something that needs to be handled by DM adjudication. Either make all effects which deal physical damage subject to Damage Reduction, or give psionic powers the same free pass that arcane and divine magic get. There's really no reason for them to be different, and I suspect it's because of an error or some miscommunication between the different writers.

[WildCard578]

I do the same thing in my games, just for sanity's sake. For me, the big culprit is 'Deadfall', which is an instantaneous spell that creates a bunch of completely real dead logs in the air. The now completely real logs then fall, which is what deals the damage. Technically, they still shouldn't be affected by DR, but it's less confusing the other way.

Interesting spell.

While it's really not in the air ("[...]Deadfall creates a tangled mass of huge branches, logs, and fallen trees on the ground.[...]"), it does form a "20-ft. radius, 40 ft. high cylinder" that then collapses on itself dealing massive damage (minimum 15d6) while doing so.

It also appears that the damage is untyped, but since it's a conjuration (creation) I would rule that the spell deals half bludgeoning and/or piercing damage (branches, logs and trees deal) as objects would otherwise do (thus conceding the proper DR to take effect AFTER the saving throw) and the other half remains untyped (by effect of gravity).

Yeah, interactions between damage dealing mage and Damage Reduction have a few notable issues. According to the rules, no spell or SLA is subject to DR regardless of the type of damage they do (even slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning damage types). Psionic powers, however, ARE subject to DR when they do physical damage types.

It's inconsistent, and something that needs to be handled by DM adjudication. Either make all effects which deal physical damage subject to Damage Reduction, or give psionic powers the same free pass that arcane and divine magic get. There's really no reason for them to be different, and I suspect it's because of an error or some miscommunication between the different writers.

That's precisely why I usually disregard DR when applying spells effects, unless the spell has a physical, non-energy related, damage component. And that is often the case when taking into consideration "non-direct" spells (summonings, minor/major creation, etc.) that have their own effect on the world rather being raw magic channeled in a "direct" spell effect (fireball, charm person, etc.).

For example, it could be argued that untyped damage dealt by a non-direct spell such as reverse gravity could be subject to DR (especially in case to DR/-).

[WildCard578]

Sorry, last night I had to log off before finishing the post.
Read from here as if I never stopped writing.

Back to the point of DR applying or not to spells/psionics, I would rule them on the same basis since they're deemed transparent and equivalent to each other by definition of the core rule. Thus, since the XPH does say that powers are susceptible to DR I would then assume that spells are as well. Whether they do eventually get the DR to work I think it's to be considered case by case.

As I suggested earlier on that, some non-direct spells may be easier to classify, thus reducing the spells to be evaluated for DR.

To make another example, it could be really debated whether blade barrier does damage susceptible of DR or not since it's really not clear on that specific point (is it slashing damage or not?). Some would argue that it requires no attack so DR does not apply, some other would argue that it lands slashing damage so it applies.

In addition to all the above, as DR is currently structured by the rules, its effectiveness against the spells/powers may great vary, allowing situations unheard of but fantastic nonetheless (a barbarian still shrugging off damage from an earthquake).

Moreover, since the XPH is more detailed about powers by giving them more specific damage types, they are more hindered by DR than spells so this could lead to a seriously unbalanced transparency in favors of spells (spell-to-power erudite anyone?).

Thanks again for all your inputs.

[Psyren]

1) an elan's resting time to replenish power points

One player of my group is asserting that his elan only needs 4 hours of sleep to regain power points as per the racial traits.
I think that the rules are different and she only needs 4 hours of trance to gain the benefits of a full rest, yet "(s)he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before regaining power points" [xph p63, almost before the end of page].
Am I correct in ruling this by my reading and not his?

Your reading is correct but I'm curious as to why there would need to be contention here at all. Your player is correct that he only needs 4 hours of "sleep" (trancing.) While the other 4 must be restful calm, there are however still things you can do during that calm that you couldn't do while asleep, such as keep watch and make spot checks. I guess what I'm asking is what prompted this disagreement to begin with.

[nyjastul69]

Your reading is correct but I'm curious as to why there would need to be contention here at all. Your player is correct that he only needs 4 hours of "sleep" (trancing.) While the other 4 must be restful calm, there are however still things you can do during that calm that you couldn't do while asleep, such as keep watch and make spot checks. I guess what I'm asking is what prompted this disagreement to begin with.

A spot check would interrupt rest. Pretty much anything that's an action interrupts rest. One can't really do anything while resting. See here for the details on rest in regards to an arcane caster.

[Dagroth]

Sorry, last night I had to log off before finishing the post.
Read from here as if I never stopped writing.

Back to the point of DR applying or not to spells/psionics, I would rule them on the same basis since they're deemed transparent and equivalent to each other by definition of the core rule. Thus, since the XPH does say that powers are susceptible to DR I would then assume that spells are as well. Whether they do eventually get the DR to work I think it's to be considered case by case.

As I suggested earlier on that, some non-direct spells may be easier to classify, thus reducing the spells to be evaluated for DR.

To make another example, it could be really debated whether blade barrier does damage susceptible of DR or not since it's really not clear on that specific point (is it slashing damage or not?). Some would argue that it requires no attack so DR does not apply, some other would argue that it lands slashing damage so it applies.

In addition to all the above, as DR is currently structured by the rules, its effectiveness against the spells/powers may great vary, allowing situations unheard of but fantastic nonetheless (a barbarian still shrugging off damage from an earthquake).

Moreover, since the XPH is more detailed about powers by giving them more specific damage types, they are more hindered by DR than spells so this could lead to a seriously unbalanced transparency in favors of spells (spell-to-power erudite anyone?).

Thanks again for all your inputs.

Ah, but isn't Blade Barrier damage Force damage? Further, it doesn't do slashing damage, because it doesn't say it does. DR doesn't apply against it any more than it would apply against Orb of Force.

I had one player argue that DR should protect against Hail of Stone, since it would protect against a rock thrown by a Giant and there isn't any "Earth Energy" Resistance. I countered with a question on how do you adjudicate how many stones hit to cause the damage, and why wouldn't DR count against each stone... which would make the spell nigh-worthless. Besides, it's a magic spell... wouldn't that automatically overcome DR/magic? But it leaves rocks behind... are those rocks magic that could be then thrown to overcome DR/magic?

[nyjastul69]

Spells that allow for DR are noted as such. Why is this even a discussion?

[WildCard578]

Your reading is correct but I'm curious as to why there would need to be contention here at all. Your player is correct that he only needs 4 hours of "sleep" (trancing.) While the other 4 must be restful calm, there are however still things you can do during that calm that you couldn't do while asleep, such as keep watch and make spot checks. I guess what I'm asking is what prompted this disagreement to begin with.

The contention was about regaining the power points, whether after 4 hours of rest or 8 hours of restful calm (the latter).

A spot check would interrupt rest. Pretty much anything that's an action interrupts rest. One can't really do anything while resting. See here for the details on rest in regards to an arcane caster.

Exactly the point leading to the above mentioned contention: we were determining if she had enough resftul calm to regain her PP.

Ah, but isn't Blade Barrier damage Force damage? Further, it doesn't do slashing damage, because it doesn't say it does. DR doesn't apply against it any more than it would apply against Orb of Force.

I had one player argue that DR should protect against Hail of Stone, since it would protect against a rock thrown by a Giant and there isn't any "Earth Energy" Resistance. I countered with a question on how do you adjudicate how many stones hit to cause the damage, and why wouldn't DR count against each stone... which would make the spell nigh-worthless. Besides, it's a magic spell... wouldn't that automatically overcome DR/magic? But it leaves rocks behind... are those rocks magic that could be then thrown to overcome DR/magic?

Maybe I have been unclear in my previous posts but I was only pointing out what and when some spells COULD be affected by spells by their text. It was not a direct request of rule change, only a debate on whether it was realistic to use DR vs certain spells (and powers) or not, considering how complex it would be to determine when and how much to DR would be effective (as you note with the hail of stones example).

Additionally, force weapon damage is normally affected by DR. Force spell damage is not, unless specifically noted in the spell description (to my knowledge, none).

Spells that allow for DR are noted as such. Why is this even a discussion?

Because the rule says that DR does not affect spells or spell-like abilities (while it does affects powers despite the transparency proclaimed in the XPH).
Furthermore some spells do allow for the DR to take effect but most are not really detailed as one would expect, thus leading to even more confusion.
On top of it all, the spell-to-power erudite variant would prove vastly more effective than a regular psion for most spells do not take into consideration DR, even when converted as powers because in most cases there is no mention of the damage type.

***

Again, thanks all for your inputs so far.

[Psyren]

A spot check would interrupt rest. Pretty much anything that's an action interrupts rest. One can't really do anything while resting. See here for the details on rest in regards to an arcane caster.

You're right, skill use would invalidate Spot checks per RAW. But if that's the case, what the gently caress is the intended difference between an elf's "trance then rest" and everyone else's "sleep?" There appears to be no benefit to rest in that case at all. They might as well pop a benadryl for all the good "not-sleeping" does.

I personally think that passage was meant to invalidate more involved skills like Craft or Disable Device, rather than something more passive like Spot, but the rules are the rules I guess; elves are blind while resting even if their eyes are open apparently, or maybe seeing anything at all counts as a skill use and tacks on extra hours to their resting time so they're actually worse off than the races that can simply go comatose for a bit.

[WildCard578]

You're right, skill use would invalidate Spot checks per RAW. But if that's the case, what the gently caress is the intended difference between an elf's "trance then rest" and everyone else's "sleep?" There appears to be no benefit to rest in that case at all. They might as well pop a benadryl for all the good "not-sleeping" does.

I personally think that passage was meant to invalidate more involved skills like Craft or Disable Device, rather than something more passive like Spot, but the rules are the rules I guess; elves are blind while resting even if their eyes are open apparently, or maybe seeing anything at all counts as a skill use and tacks on extra hours to their resting time so they're actually worse off than the races that can simply go comatose for a bit.

Don't forget that Listen and Spot, when used in a reactive way, are non-actions.

Employing one's Listen or Spot skill to keep the environment under check (i.e. mounting guard) is a standard action.

[Psyren]

Don't forget that Listen and Spot, when used in a reactive way, are non-actions.

Employing one's Listen or Spot skill to keep the environment under check (i.e. mounting guard) is a standard action.

The RAW is "skill use" though, whether an action cost is involved or not. I fully agree with you that passive Spot and Listen for elves should be allowed without being considered a rest interruption, but the rules are frustratingly unclear.