Retiering the Classes: Death Master, Shaman, Shugenja, Sorcerer, and Wu Jen

[eggynack]

Here's a bunch of arbitrary full casters. As one would expect, they're really strong and such, though not on the level of a wizard or cleric. Pretty straightforward stuff. Here's the classes.

Death Master (DCS, 29): For the most part, this is like a core wizard with a shorter list. You do get animate dead as a second level spell, some necromancy themed abilities, and the occasional cleric spell, but especially mediocre wizard sums it up pretty well.

Shaman (OA, 22): This class is like a weird combination cleric and druid, with domains and spontaneous cure/inflict from the former, the animal companion from the latter, and a list that pulls some of its theming from both. The list is a lot shorter though.

Shugenja (CD, 10): This one is a spontaneous divine caster off of a pretty reasonable list that's partially defined by a choice of elemental theming. Not much to it beyond that, all things considered.

Sorcerer: It's a wizard. But, like, spontaneous. Except worse for some reason.

Wu Jen (CArc, 14): You get prepared arcane casting off of a good, though not on the level of something like a wizard, list. The class features on this one are pretty decent too, including some minor free metamagic.

What are the tiers?

The simple answer here is that tier one is the best, the home of things on the approximate problem solving scale of wizards, and tier six is the worst, land of commoners. And problem solving capacity is what's being measured here. Considering the massive range of challenges a character is liable to be presented with across the levels, how much and how often does that character's class contribute to the defeat of those challenges? This value should be considered as a rough averaging across all levels, the center of the level range somewhat more than really low and really high level characters, and across all optimization levels (considering DM restrictiveness as a plausible downward acting factor on how optimized a character is), prioritizing moderate optimization somewhat more than low or high.

A big issue with the original tier system is that, if anything, it was too specific, generating inflexible definitions for allowance into a tier which did not cover the broad spectrum of ways a class can operate. When an increase in versatility would seem to represent a decrease in tier, because tier two is supposed to be low versatility, it's obvious that we've become mired in something that'd be pointless to anyone trying to glean information from the tier system. Thus, I will be uncharacteristically word light here. The original tier system's tier descriptions are still good guidelines here, but they shouldn't be assumed to be the end all and be all for how classes get ranked.

Consistent throughout these tiers is the notion of problems and the solving thereof. For the purposes of this tier system, the problem space can be said to be inclusive of combat, social interaction, and exploration, with the heaviest emphasis placed on combat. A problem could theoretically fall outside of that space, but things inside that space are definitely problems. Another way to view the idea of problem solving is through the lens of the niche ranking system. A niche filled tends to imply the capacity to solve a type of problem, whether it's a status condition in the case of healing, or an enemy that just has too many hit points in the case of melee combat. It's not a perfect measure, both because some niches have a lot of overlap in the kinds of problems they can solve and because, again, the niches aren't necessarily all inclusive, but they can act as a good tool for class evaluation.

Tier one: Incredibly good at solving nearly all problems. This is the realm of clerics, druids, and wizards, classes that open up with strong combat spells backed up by utility, and then get massively stronger from there. If you're not keeping up with that core trio of tier one casters, then you probably don't belong here.

Tier two: We're just a step below tier one here, in the land of classes around the sorcerer level of power. Generally speaking, this means relaxing one of the two tier one assumptions, either getting us to very good at solving nearly all problems, or incredibly good at solving most problems. But, as will continue to be the case as these tiers go on, there aren't necessarily these two simple categories for this tier. You gotta lose something compared to the tier one casters, but what you lose doesn't have to be in some really specific proportions.

Tier three: Again, we gotta sacrifice something compared to tier two, here taking us to around the level of a swordsage. The usual outcome is that you are very good at solving a couple of problems and competent at solving a few more. Of course, there are other possibilities, for example that you might instead be competent at solving nearly all problems.

Tier four: Here we're in ranger/barbarian territory (though the ranger should be considered largely absent of ACF's and stuff to hit this tier, as will be talked about later). Starting from that standard tier three position, the usual sweet spots here are very good at solving a few problems, or alright at solving many problems.

Tier five: We're heading close to the dregs here. Tier five is the tier of monks, classes that are as bad as you can be without being an aristocrat or a commoner. Classes here are sometimes very good at solving nearly no problems, or alright at solving a few, or some other function thereof. It's weak, is the point.

Tier six: And here we have commoner tier. Or, the bottom is commoner. The top is approximately aristocrat. You don't necessarily have nothing in this tier, but you have close enough to it.

The Threads

Tier System Home Base


The Fixed List Casters: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage


The Obvious Tier One Classes: Archivist, Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Sha'ir, and Wizard


The Mundane Beat Sticks (part one): Barbarian, Fighter, Samurai (CW), and Samurai (OA)


The Roguelikes: Ninja, Rogue, and Scout


The Pseudo-Druids: Spirit Shaman, Spontaneous Druid, Urban Druid, and Wild Shape Ranger


The Jacks of All Trades: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant


The Tome of Battlers: Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade


The NPCs: Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, Magewright, and Warrior


The Vaguely Supernatural Melee Folk: Battle Dancer, Monk, Mountebank, and Soulknife


The Miscellaneous Full Casters: Death Master, Shaman, Shugenja, Sorcerer, and Wu Jen


The Wacky Magicists: Binder, Dragonfire Adept, Shadowcaster, Truenamer, and Warlock

The Rankings

Death Master: Tier two

Shaman: Tier one

Shugenja: Tier three

Sorcerer: Tier two

Wu Jen: Tier one

And here's a link to the spreadsheet.

[Troacctid]

I think Death Master and Wu Jen are both 1.5s. They are almost on the level of the Wizard, but they're also clearly worse overall.

(EDIT: You know what, I'm moving Death Master up to a 1. It's essentially a core-only specialist wizard. Is a core-only specialist wizard still T1? I think so. Especially with the skeletal minion shoring up the early levels that are often problematic for wizards. So, T1. Wu Jen, eh, I don't like it as much.)

Sorcerer is an easy 2.

Shugenja is about on the same level as the Warmage, IMO. It has some good spells on its list, but it also has limited options, plus some very annoying restrictions. I'll say 3. Would probably be good enough for 2.5 if it didn't tie your hands on half your known spells the way it does.

[Cosi]

Death Master and Wu Jen both seem to be basically a random selection of Wizard spells. That's obviously worse than an actual Wizard (by virtue of not getting some spells), and probably substantially so if you compare to a non-core Wizard that gets all the random spells from Spell Compendium or Complete Arcane or whatever. Still, there's a lot of daylight between the Wizard and bad. Probably works out to be about as good as the Wizard in most cases, because you probably aren't learning enough spells to overrun the spells you do get.

Sorcerer is like a Beguiler, but instead of getting a bunch of random spells, you get to pick a much smaller number of spells. Probably roughly as good.

I've never known enough about the Shugenja to make a reasonable assessment. My guess is that how good it is depends on how strictly it holds to the whole "elemental spells" thing. If that means fireball and create water, it's bad. If it means planar binding for some reason, it's pretty good.

[eggynack]

I'm not sure on the shugenja and wu jen (I'ma do some list checking on those later), but sorcerer and death master still seem tier two to me. First is obvious, so not especially worth talking about. Death master, it just loses so much. It's significantly worse than a core wizard, even one that's made pretty bad school banning decisions. Early animate dead is great, but you're doing just alright in a core only environment and actively bad in a non-core environment, and the whole setup seems tier two to me. Could see going up to 1.5, but 1 seems out of the question to me, and 2 feels like the right place to start.

[Taveena]

Shugenja's 'elemental' lists tend to include both literal and figurative versions of the abilities. There are plenty of really potent spells on there, and the Order spells can certainly help fill in gaps. They don't have as many 'utterly break the setting' spells as a Sorcerer or Favored Soul, but they have a TON of strong wizard and cleric classic spells on their list like Teleport, Wall of Stone, Righteous Might, and Antimagic Field.

[DEMON]

I've never known enough about the Shugenja to make a reasonable assessment. My guess is that how good it is depends on how strictly it holds to the whole "elemental spells" thing. If that means fireball and create water, it's bad. If it means planar binding for some reason, it's pretty good.

It's complicated.

Create Water is on the Water list, along pretty much everything healing-related, while the Fire list has stuff like Confusion, Chain Lightning and Power Word Blind, but no Fireball. Fireball, however, is an order spell for the Order of the Consuming Flame.

[lord_khaine]

I vote T2 for all of them.

They either have limited access to the full spell list, or full access to a limited spell list. That is more or less the definition of a tier 2 class.

Edit.
Changed my mind on the Shugenja, downgrading it to T3

[Florian]

I've never known enough about the Shugenja to make a reasonable assessment. My guess is that how good it is depends on how strictly it holds to the whole "elemental spells" thing. If that means fireball and create water, it's bad. If it means planar binding for some reason, it's pretty good.

Keep in mind that classes like the Shugenja are ported from a) a different system (L5R) and b) based on a specific setting (Rokugan). There, they´re the only caster class.

[lord_khaine]

Keep in mind that classes like the Shugenja are ported from a) a different system (L5R) and b) based on a specific setting (Rokugan). There, they´re the only caster class.

There are is blood magicians there, who i recall are sorcerers.
But yeah, more or less the only caster class there meant for players by default.

[Rhyltran]

Death Master - Tier 2 - This class is clearly worse than a wizard but definitely above warmage and the other tier 3 casters.

Wu Jen - Tier 1.5 - Similar spells as wizard but not as great of a selection. Even so they have some nice spells: Giant size, lightning blade, body outside body, metal skin, transcend mortality, magnetism, and much more. So not quite a wizard but definitely closer to it than some of the other tier 2's.

Sorcerer - Tier 1.5 - I'm going to say it. I think Sorcerer is in between tier 1 and tier 2. While this is controversial and they do get a smaller list than the wizard we are considering at least "some optimization" a base sorcerer, a semi optimized, and optimized are all being considered and based on this there's so many different ways to add spells to your list as well as items that the sorcerer can make up for many of it's failings. Not only this but the sorcerer has the advantage of spontaneous spell casting on top of all that.

Shugenja - Tier 3 - About on par with war-mage so I'm going to be voting Tier 3 here. There's not much to say here as this is probably the least controversial choice.

[Gemini476]

Keep in mind that classes like the Shugenja are ported from a) a different system (L5R) and b) based on a specific setting (Rokugan). There, they´re the only caster class.

Eh, the Wu Jen has a fair bit in common with the 1E Oriental Adventures Wu Jen. The Shugenja and Shukenja are a bit more different, IIRC, but I'm not sure how strong the mechanical connections to Legend of the Five Rings is.

EDIT: The 1E Wu Jen being native to Rokugan, which of course is just on the opposite side of the main continent in The Forgotten Realms and thus you could technically travel straight from Wa to Waterdeep without needing to resort to any kid of magic.

[Florian]

Eh, the Wu Jen has a fair bit in common with the 1E Oriental Adventures Wu Jen. The Shugenja and Shukenja are a bit more different, IIRC, but I'm not sure how strong the mechanical connections to Legend of the Five Rings is.

EDIT: The 1E Wu Jen being native to Rokugan, which of course is just on the opposite side of the main continent in The Forgotten Realms and thus you could technically travel straight from Wa to Waterdeep without needing to resort to any kid of magic.

You´re mixing up the Oriental Adventures settings. D20 OA uses the L5R Rokugan license, as WotC held that at the time.

[Gemini476]

You´re mixing up the Oriental Adventures settings. D20 OA uses the L5R Rokugan license, as WotC held that at the time.

D'oh, right. Kara-Tur, the 1E OA setting is Kara-Tur. Part of the Forgotten Realms, much like Maztica and whatever the Arabian Adventures setting was called.

[Florian]

D'oh, right. Kara-Tur, the 1E OA setting is Kara-Tur. Part of the Forgotten Realms, much like Maztica and whatever the Arabian Adventures setting was called.

Jepp and Al´Qadim/Zakhara. But that´s also why Shugenja seem to be weak and odd when reviewed and tiered outside the setting. There, Bloodspeakers/Sorcerers are NPC-only and supposed to have more raw power than a Shugenja. The aforementioned fireball is a good example on what thoughts went into the design of the class, as only the right order/school teaches the secret to certain spells.

[Florian]

I don't understand why that would get you any credit in a game where people are totally able to play other casters if they want to.

In a L5R game, you don´t. There´re only 4 playable PC classes, with supporting PrC for specialization (and those are faction-based), everything else is NPC stuff. It´s very strict on this: Setting Rules beat Mechanics on this one.

Edit: To prevent nitpicking: You´re allowed to mc with some of the core classes, but only in certain combinations, and even equipment is restricted by setting rules.

[Cosi]

In a L5R game, you don´t. There´re only 4 playable PC classes, with supporting PrC for specialization (and those are faction-based), everything else is NPC stuff. It´s very strict on this: Setting Rules beat Mechanics on this one.

Edit: To prevent nitpicking: You´re allowed to mc with some of the core classes, but only in certain combinations, and even equipment is restricted by setting rules.

Sure, but I think we are specifically talking about the Shugenja that appears in Complete Divine and is presumably intended for general use.

[Florian]

Sure, but I think we are specifically talking about the Shugenja that appears in Complete Divine and is presumably intended for general use.

It´s more like they updated the old 3.0 rules and wanted to force people to buy the different complete books to have them all. You know, one asia-type class per book or something. Else, the revamp doesn´t make sense, compared to the power level and usual design features that were common at that time.

[remetagross]

So obviously Lord Drako is not trying to make a meaningful contribution to the thread, but he does raise a useful point. The difference between Tier One and Tier Two is essentially entirely down to what stuff you assume we're counting. The Wizard is Tier One because it can learn all the spells. But that costs a bunch of money, and if you were a Sorcerer you could just spend that money on a use-activated item of psychic reformation which would also allow you to learn all the spells. Similarly, the Beguiler could take any PrC that offers a Prestige Domain, buy an Eternal Wand of substitute domain, and run around casting any spell from a couple dozen domains. Going in the opposite direction, an Artificer that doesn't get to leverage crafting is Tier Two at best, and an Archivist or Erudite that is relatively limited in spell access is not particularly Tier One.

Basically, I don't think there is a distinction between Tier One and Tier Two that doesn't boil down to "these are the forms of optimization we choose to count".

This does seem a sound reasoning...now, the prerequisite of it is that the Wizard is tier 1 if it knows all the spells. Admittedly, this requires at least a modicum of optimisation. But as has been pointed out several times before, what if the Wizard only needs some more spells? If it does, given that achieving this requires less optimisation, it entails that it decreases the optimisation threshold that Sorcerers and Beguilers have access to to try and reach tier 1. I honestly have no idea about these questions. To sum it up:
1. If Wizards need to know all the spells to get to tier 1, they need an amount of optimisation A. If, with an amount of optimisation A, Sorcerers can get enough versatility to become as powerful as wizards, then they are in the same tier as wizards are. Since Wizards are tier 1, so must be Sorcerers.
2. If Wizards need to know, like, 50% of all the spells in the game (the best 50%) to get to tier 1, they require an amount of optimisation B, where B < A. If, within B optimisation, Sorcerers cannot get at least almost as useful as Wizards, them they are one tier lower. Since Wizards are still tier 1, Sorcerers end up tier 2.

I know I'm kinda beating a dead horse, but that issue of the minimal number of spells known to get to Tier 1 has been raised several times and has never found an answer, and since it seems relevant to answer it in this context, I support Cosi for raising it again.

[Bucky]

In practice a Wizard does not know all the spells. They must track down most of their spells in-game.

[Cosi]

This does seem a sound reasoning...now, the prerequisite of it is that the Wizard is tier 1 if it knows all the spells. Admittedly, this requires at least a modicum of optimisation. But as has been pointed out several times before, what if the Wizard only needs some more spells? If it does, given that achieving this requires less optimisation, it entails that it decreases the optimisation threshold that Sorcerers and Beguilers have access to to try and reach tier 1. I honestly have no idea about these questions.

Some notes:

First, the power of the Wizard v the Sorcerer isn't necessarily what matters here. What matters is the Sorcerer v whatever the weakest class in Tier One is. Beating the Wizard is sufficient, but not necessary, to be Tier One. If you instead beat the Psion (or Druid, or Artificer, or whatever the worst definitely Tier One class is), you are still Tier One.

Second, it's not just "the Wizard has to spend a bunch of resources to learn spells", but "classes optimize in different ways and with different resources". For example, the Druid cares very little about PrCs (as most of them are worse than just taking more Druid levels), so an analysis that excludes PrCs is necessarily going to make the Druid seem relatively stronger than one that includes them.

Similarly, Beguilers benefit more from PrCs because they really want Prestige Domains (or other PrC options that expand their list), but less from additional splats because they don't really care if there's a new random Druid spell that is sometimes worth casting.

If you do an analysis on "base classes only" or "everything except PrCs" or whatever, you necessarily warp rankings because classes do not employ the exact same optimization strategies and do not benefit to the same degree from the same sources.

Third, most of the analysis I've seen of what a minimal spell list Tier One Wizard looks like involves taking spells like planar binding and polymorph, which are pretty cheesy, and not really representative of the situation people are trying to model (Wizards who are spell constrained are not likely to take those spells).

Sorcerer can take multiples Divine Sorcery feat grant spells and domain granted power. I love it.

I see no indication that Divine Sorcery can be taken more than once. What's more, it can only be taken at the first Sorcerer level. Meaning that even if you could take multiples, it would require you to be a Human (or some other race that grants a bonus feat at first level, like a Strongheart Halfling) or be allowed to take Flaws. Using your race in this way locks you out of the Kobold cheese that represents some of the best Sorcerer options, and Flaws are an optional rule.

Giving access to the granted power is not unique. Prestige Domains give it as well, and do not have the one spell known per day limitation the feat does ("Each day, you can add one spell from the domain's spell list to your sorcerer spell list.").

No, Undead Battery is Sorcerer only.

Could someone with access to the book where Undead Battery appears confirm this?

I bealive Domain Acess is enough. It's divine.

I don't see anything to confirm this. For reference:

In addition, you can cast one domain spell of each spell level available to you per day from that domain.

In the absence of specific text to the contrary, it seems to me that we should use the default rule for Sorcerer spells to determine whether these spells are Arcane or Divine. Per the SRD:

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

That would seem to me to indicate that these spells are Arcane rather than Divine.

But, Domain acess+ Imbue with spell ability = divine spell + Magic Domain.

Sure, but this does not seem any simpler than Prestige Domain + imbue with spell ability on a Beguiler.

Wrong, Greater Arcane Fusion require Sorcerer Spell know. Only Sorcerer can cast it.

The spell requires that you use it cast Sorcerer spells. It does not require that you personally are a Sorcerer, unless you wish to learn it as one of your spells gained on level up. If you just want to use a Knowstone or Runestave to cast it, you may do so freely (provided you make the appropriate UMD check).

I love itens dependency, multiples Hail of Stones love break everything.

Sure. That doesn't negate any previous domain shuffling on the Beguiler's part though. It's also not terribly relevant, as most situations are not character duels, but rather conflicts with specific enemies, who are unlikely to deploy heavily metamagic'd hail of stones to sunder items.

Hey, Rainbow Servant is not full casting, the table EXPLICT say that. No acess to level 9 spells.

Again, the text indicates that it is full casting, and text trumps table. You are free to provide a citation to the contrary if you disagree.

[Rhyltran]

Could someone with access to the book where Undead Battery appears confirm this?

Gladly it comes from the age of mortals book which I do have. Page 209 and it shows up in a side bar. Metamagic. You can drain negative energy from undead to power your spells.

Prerequisites:

Greater spell focus Necromancy, ability to use sorcery or mysticism, ability to cast 6th level necromany spells.

[Cosi]

Greater spell focus Necromancy, ability to use sorcery or mysticism, ability to cast 6th level necromany spells.

What does "sorcery or mysticism" mean? I assume that's the bit Drako is focusing on, but it's not clear to me that "using Sorcery" and "being a Sorcerer" are the same thing in this context.

[Rhyltran]

What does "sorcery or mysticism" mean? I assume that's the bit Drako is focusing on, but it's not clear to me that "using Sorcery" and "being a Sorcerer" are the same thing in this context.

Honestly I don't know myself. The book is very fluff heavy from what I re-call (haven't read it for awhile.) so I think he thinks it means "You have to be a sorcerer." when it is simply saying as long as you can cast sorcerer spells/arcane magic. I could be wrong but the text isn't clear.

[Elderand]

Honestly I don't know myself. The book is very fluff heavy from what I re-call (haven't read it for awhile.) so I think he thinks it means "You have to be a sorcerer." when it is simply saying as long as you can cast sorcerer spells/arcane magic. I could be wrong but the text isn't clear. That's word for word what it says.

If you know the setting at all, it's clear. You have to be a sorcerer or Mystic. It's not about the spell list, it's about the class.

[Rhyltran]

If you know the setting at all, it's clear. You have to be a sorcerer or Mystic. It's not about the spell list, it's about the class.

Alright, thank you. As mentioned, I just looked it up in the book I haven't read it in a long time.

[EdRed]

The feat is just using some DragonLance fluff rich speech. Sorcery in this particular instance likely means "unlicensed" wizards.
Lore wise, the creator of this feat is Dalamar, an Elf *Wizard* unless I'm very mistaken.

How does a wizard create a feat, for which he does not meet the requirements himself?

[DeAnno]

So, I haven't really participated in any of these threads, so I'm not going to vote or anything, but I know a fair bit about Sorcerers in play so I'm going to highlight some things.

• The standard for inclusion into T1 for a Spontaneous caster in this list seems to me to be being superior or equal to the Spontaneous Druid. Spont-Dru has T3 and T5 abilities in Wild Shape and Animal Companion, is a spell level ahead of Sorcerer, but has a generally worse Spell List than Sorcerer.
• Arcane and Greater Arcane Fusion are basically Sorcerer Class features that they get if CM is in play. The language of those spells is very restrictive, and I think it's an easy argument to make that nobody but an actual Sorcerer can get any use out of them. Arcane Fusion especially is usable for more than half the levels and can be quite strong even when you aren't just using it to jam True Strikes. One can argue it's the best combo of efficient/legit action economy booster in the entire game.
• Also worth mentioning, for a feat a Kobold Sorc basically gets the spell level back that it's behind Spont Druid. Granted Sorcerers are feat poor, not everyone uses Web Enhancements, and not everyone wants to be a Kobold. But also remember, this isn't something dumb like Loredrake, this is a real thing worth remembering from a more legit source that can sanely be used in actual games.
• It's an interesting argument that Beguiler is better than Sorcerer at the start of the game, and one I think can't be argued with from levels 1-5 at least. I think it's worth wondering if Sorcerers are similarly better than Spontaneous Druids at the end of the game, from levels 14-20 or so (probably excepting 15 and 17). At this point they start to have Greater AF (and native Arcane Spellsurge), perhaps critical mass of spells to choose from, Druid Wild Shape is starting to become more replaceable/less important, etc etc.
• Fast Metamagic at 1 and Force Charged Energy at 5 are pretty nifty ACFs, enough so that the "Sorc has no class features" thing can be blunted a bit until the levels where they commonly prestige out.

[Elderand]

The feat is just using some DragonLance fluff rich speech. Sorcery in this particular instance likely means "unlicensed" wizards.
Lore wise, the creator of this feat is Dalamar, an Elf *Wizard* unless I'm very mistaken.

How does a wizard create a feat, for which he does not meet the requirements himself?

No, it's not. Sorcery is different from just being an unlicensed wizard. Sorcery is using magic without drawing magic via the moons.
When Dalamar created the feat, he wasn't a wizard, he was a sorcerer. Wizard type magic literraly went away and stopped working because the gods are ***** in dragonlance. he among others rediscovered the means to use primal magic by becoming a sorcerer.

[Rhyltran]

No, it's not. Sorcery is different from just being an unlicensed wizard. Sorcery is using magic without drawing magic via the moons.
When Dalamar created the feat, he wasn't a wizard, he was a sorcerer. Wizard type magic literraly went away and stopped working because the gods are ***** in dragonlance. he among others rediscovered the means to use primal magic by becoming a sorcerer.

What about things like beguilers, dread necromancers, and similar? What would they count as under the dragon lance setting? Probably not sorcerers given that they draw power from the moon? Sorry, I know very little about the dragonlance setting. I primarily play Eberron/Forgotten realms.

[Elderand]

What about things like beguilers, dread necromancers, and similar? What would they count as under the dragon lance setting? Probably not sorcerers given that they draw power from the moon? Sorry, I know very little about the dragonlance setting. I primarily play Eberron/Forgotten realms.

Those classes don't exist in dragonlance.
Really, it's that simple. Dragonlance is a very specific setting with very specific rules and fluff. If you wanted to include them, every spontaneous caster would count as using sorcery.