Don't be silly, its (undead) turtles; all the way down!

[Dappershire]

So, this question popped into my head last weekend.

Corporeal and Non-Corporeal Undead. Lots of types and flavors here. Sizes too. I figure a giant's ghost is the same rough size as a giant zombie. My question is though: Can you layer them?

I'm not talking about combining undead, or anything abhorrent and awesome like that. But, assuming you control a small handful of undead, is their anything stopping you from placing your incorporeal undead inside their more substantive brothers?
I guess most see-throughs are intelligent, not exactly duck walked puppetstyle; but I figure they know a necromancer's will at least, so keeping in tune with a meatsack's movements shouldn't be entirely difficult. And if it is possibly, or even easily done, would a medium size zombie be enough of a shelter for, say, a medium sized wraith? Protecting them from sunlight and all while on the move? (I'm just going to roll with the assumption that skeletons wont be much use here.

I dunno, I just really enjoy the image of a party of adventurers taking on a small appetite of zombies, and then SURPRISE! Shadows all up in the FACE!!!! Shade throwin' Zombie mofos.

So yeah, gimme your input.


Post Scripte: I apologize to anyone who came here under the assumption I would be discussing turtles. Its a religious geographical reference.

[Yora]

I would simply give those ghosts the ability to possess corpses. No need for those corpses to already be zombies.

[TheCountAlucard]

Assuming you're talking about 3.5, incorporeal critters such as ghosts can pass through substantial materials, but they can't just squat in an occupied space.

The operative keywords there being "pass through."

So no, no layering zombies and ghosts in the same squares during combat.

[Quertus]

Well, you cleatly understand how my necromancers operate.

If you're being picky, there are a few issues with this plan, however. Attempting to choreograph movements perfectly is, realistically, all but impossible, even ignoring turn-based movement. So it would be trivially easy to spot the incorporeal undead constantly sticking out while the duo is in motion. While they are standing still, however, they can be all but undetectable.

The real trick is to give the incorporeal undead things to hold onto, at which point it's actually quite trivial to transport them unseen. Simply imbed Jade at key locations in/on your intended transport undead, and let the incorporeal undead ride along effortlessly.

[Dappershire]

Assuming you're talking about 3.5, incorporeal critters such as ghosts can pass through substantial materials, but they can't just squat in an occupied space.

.

Well, drat. Keelhaul all lawyers, but if others can't ruleslawyer the opposite, that might be that.

Well, you cleatly understand how my necromancers operate.

If you're being picky, there are a few issues with this plan, however. Attempting to choreograph movements perfectly is, realistically, all but impossible, even ignoring turn-based movement. So it would be trivially easy to spot the incorporeal undead constantly sticking out while the duo is in motion. While they are standing still, however, they can be all but undetectable.
.

Yeah, but, at worst, wouldn't it just look like wisps of fog, shadow, and necromantic energy; pooling off their flesh as the incorporeal pokes out of the corporeal? (Actually, that's a really cool image...)


Actually, assuming the first law was wrong for a moment, aren't incorporeal undead emaciated in shape? Super thin plasmatic beings. Don't need to match the arm and legs movement, just curl up and float in the chest. Even better if the zombie wears armor....or at the least, a thick hooded cloak (as they all should. How can we expect adventurers to take our armies seriously if we don't take proper care of them?)

[Jay R]

They don't need to be inside them, other than momentarily.

DM: Eight creatures are coming towards you, in two ranks of four. The zombies are preparing to attack.
PC: Zombies? Yawn. OK, let's kill the zombies. This shouldn't take long.
DM: As they approach, the back rank comes through the front rank of zombies and attack. Now that they are in front, you can see that they are wraiths.

[JBPuffin]

They don't need to be inside them, other than momentarily.

DM: Eight creatures are coming towards you, in two ranks of four. The zombies are preparing to attack.
PC: Zombies? Yawn. OK, let's kill the zombies. This shouldn't take long.
DM: As they approach, the back rank comes through the front rank of zombies and attack. Now that they are in front, you can see that they are wraiths.

Most of Party: "Cleric!"
High-OP 3.5 Cleric - "Sorry guys, DMM: Persist is really expensive."
Monk: I can turn undead...
Factotum: Me too!
Dread Necromancer: Hang on, guys... (rebuke undead/spells) Corpse! Atten-Tion!
*Horde stops.*
DN: About face!
*Horde turns around*
DN: Forward March!
Cleric: Take me right now.

Just thought I'd share.

[Psyren]

Short answer: You need smaller wraiths.

Longer answer comes from Rules Compendium 65:

An incorporeal creature can occupy the same space as a corporeal creature, unless the corporeal creature is entirely surrounded by a force effect. An incorporeal creature entering a corporeal creature’s space (or vice versa) provokes attacks of opportunity as normal for moving into another creature’s space. The entering creature must then succeed on a touch attack against the target to share the same physical space. If the target is helpless or doesn’t resist, no attack is necessary. If the attack succeeds, the entering creature moves into the target’s space. This attack deals no damage, even if the entering creature’s touch attack normally deals damage. If the attack fails, the entering creature returns to the space it occupied before entering the target’s space.

An incorporeal creature occupying the space of a corporeal creature might gain cover, while the corporeal creature might gain concealment. See the Sharing Spaces table. For example, a shadow sharing the space of an ogre gains cover, but the ogre gains no benefit. A shadow sharing the space of a halfling grants the halfling concealment, but gains no benefit itself. A shadow sharing the space of a human gains cover, and the human gains concealment. This cover or concealment affects even attacks made by the other creature sharing the space.

In other words, they can share each other's space (even if they're the exact same size), but the wraiths won't be totally safe from the sun. Per the table, same size or one size down = cover for the incorporeal creature, while two sizes down or more = total cover.

For the Wraith to be safe from the sun, they would need Total Cover, which requires that they be two size categories or more smaller than the creature they're hiding "inside." Anything closer than that, and the wraith is being repeatedly exposed to sunlight.

[Dappershire]

Snip

That is exactly what I was looking for. Permission granted to drop the mic. Lawyered.

and...um...wow.
So there is massive benefit to putting, say, 4 shadows inside of 4 human zombies. So long as they don't move squares, anyone engaging a square would be taking attacks from both sources? And would only be able to attack the zombie, with it's concealment, until the zombie expired? That sounds amazing. Quick, hide this from the DMs.

[Doorhandle]

That is exactly what I was looking for. Permission granted to drop the mic. Lawyered.

and...um...wow.
So there is massive benefit to putting, say, 4 shadows inside of 4 human zombies. So long as they don't move squares, anyone engaging a square would be taking attacks from both sources? And would only be able to attack the zombie, with it's concealment, until the zombie expired? That sounds amazing. Quick, hide this from the DMs.

Too late:

It might be fun to do: my group is fairly low-op, but due to the particularities of how I run games they generally get about 1 or two big encounters a day, rather than the smattering of weaker enemies. Then again, that last part is in part a reaction to the absence of a cleric...