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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    Is negative LA legitimately not allowed by the rules? Or is it just that it has no real precedent? Because some creatures have enough worthless RHD to make them require negative LA to be in line with other characters.
    I wouldn't be surprised if there's a rule out there forbidding it, but there is precedent. Both Incarnate Construct and the ELH have material with a negative LA (though the second mentions it indirectly and both are 3.0). (EDIT: Ninja'ed on this one, curse my long posts!)

    However, there's a number of reasons why I'm not going to use negative LAs beyond -0, which I have stated a number of times before already.

    To put it simply, I'm not doing it because it breaks assumed assumptions of level and HD limits. Almost all PrCs are enterable much earlier if your HD exceeds your ECL, many feats (including some horribly broken ones) become available before they're meant to, and spells that should be effective against low-level PCs (such as Cause Fear, Color Spray or Sleep) aren't all of a sudden.

    Also, there's going to be situations where a creature is underpowered at +0 LA, but strengthened so much by suddenly being ahead a skill rank and HD on everyone that it's too strong at -1. Those will be a bit trickier than I was hoping for when creating this thread.

    In some cases, people are going to pick something completely horrible and useless (like a gas spore) only because of the massive negative LA it'll get, then enter Ur Priest or something equivalent first chance they get. I don't want to encourage that.

    I already advise people who want to play something with -0 LA to ask their DM for a houserule, fix, or variant, which I feel is a better solution at this time than trying to measure the exact point at which the headstart on the party starts to outweigh the drawbacks of HD.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2017-05-06 at 02:41 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by zergling.exe View Post
    It does wonky stuff with epic rules, so it's easier to prevent problems by not allowing negative LA. There is at least one template that provides negative LA - Incarnate Construct.
    I'm pretty sure Incarnate Construct was intended for races with a high base level adjustment. Because high Strength, natural armor, construct traits, and such are hugely powerful abilities, overshadowed only by construct hit dice.
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  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Merfolk


    Merfolk, much like hobgoblins, are one of those races currently a weak +1. Assigning its LA is going to be a matter of determining whether it'd be overpowered at +0.

    Let's take a look: merfolk have a swim speed of 50 feet, a land speed one-tenth of that, and a +2 bonus to dexterity, constitution, and charisma. They're also aquatic with the amphibious quality and... well, that's it.

    Sure, the stat boosts are nice, and the swim speed is above-average even for aquatic races, but even in a fully underwater campaign I doubt +1 LA is balanced. +0 assigned for the time being.
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    Last edited by Inevitability; 2017-05-07 at 03:50 AM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I think we can go with -0 merfolk basicly has no movement speed and loot of combats are done with full use of 30 ft or more movement speed so -0 for me unless we give them change shape free so they can switch between ground and see combat
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  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    I think we can go with -0 merfolk basicly has no movement speed and loot of combats are done with full use of 30 ft or more movement speed so -0 for me unless we give them change shape free so they can switch between ground and see combat
    When assigning the LA, I am assuming the campaign takes place underwater. Merfolk have 50 ft. movement underwater.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Even out of water, they're not completely terrible. You miss out on cool racial features and rapid independent movement in exchange for decent stats and the water stuff. They'd make decent sorcerers or warlocks, and the movement speed issue can be avoided by simply buying a horse (or getting the fighter to give you a piggyback ride).
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    A large fishbowl with wheels would also work. And it would give you cover, too. *nod*
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I know there are ways to get flight in early levels and there is some intresting rp potencial for mermaid warlock
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    I know there are ways to get flight in early levels and there is some intresting rp potencial for mermaid warlock
    No more than a human warlock, for the most part. Merfolk are just humans with fishtails, after all.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiri View Post
    No more than a human warlock, for the most part. Merfolk are just humans with fishtails, after all.
    more on the how she made the f ing pact while in underwater were nearly no regular way to keep files there
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    more on the how she made the f ing pact while in underwater were nearly no regular way to keep files there
    Warlocks don't always have a pact as the source of their power and all you need to do to have files underwater, whatever that has to do with anything, is keep them on something that doesn't dissolve in water.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    more on the how she made the f ing pact while in underwater were nearly no regular way to keep files there
    Well it could be chiseled in stone or signed with a magic laser pen in return for her voice.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    more on the how she made the f ing pact while in underwater were nearly no regular way to keep files there
    Do you think Warlocks get to keep a physical copy of their Pact? Do you think most of them will even know how to read it, given that it's written in an extraplanar language? Heck, what makes you think it has to be written in the first place? Verbal contracts are a thing, and magic makes some weird things happen.

    And even if this merfolk Warlock did have a physical copy, it'd probably be some form of well-treated or magically infused parchment, which is actually a type of leather, written in ink that chemically or magically burns the words into the sheet(s) so as to make it damn sure that it won't degrade from simple age and mundane exposure. It wouldn't even be particularly difficult, given some of the 0th and 1st level spells around.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    Do you think Warlocks get to keep a physical copy of their Pact? Do you think most of them will even know how to read it, given that it's written in an extraplanar language? Heck, what makes you think it has to be written in the first place? Verbal contracts are a thing, and magic makes some weird things happen.

    And even if this merfolk Warlock did have a physical copy, it'd probably be some form of well-treated or magically infused parchment, which is actually a type of leather, written in ink that chemically or magically burns the words into the sheet(s) so as to make it damn sure that it won't degrade from simple age and mundane exposure. It wouldn't even be particularly difficult, given some of the 0th and 1st level spells around.
    For that matter, if the Pact is represented by a physical object, said physical representation is almost certainly an Artifact-level item, or effectively one.
    After all - this object covers a deal involving selling one's soul for power, that's not something you can get rid of by tossing in a bucket of water or in a fire.

    If Pacts were so easy to get out of, on purpose or by accident, there'd be no point in making Pacts for the Patrons.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiri View Post
    Warlocks don't always have a pact as the source of their power and all you need to do to have files underwater, whatever that has to do with anything, is keep them on something that doesn't dissolve in water.
    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    If Pacts were so easy to get out of, on purpose or by accident, there'd be no point in making Pacts for the Patrons.
    Yeah, but the idea of getting out of an infernal contract because the fiend forgot to waterproof it first is hilarious.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Yeah, but the idea of getting out of an infernal contract because the fiend forgot to waterproof it first is hilarious.
    first he or she needs to make con check to not suffocate from sudden breath loss
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    While it's worthwhile to avoid marking down for disabilities that will obviously not be a problem to anybody who actually bothers taking the race, I will say that requiring investment of resources to function on land is a pretty big one, and even in a primarily-aquatic campaign, it's not unreasonable to expect land to come up. I agree with a +0 LA. I think they're already 1 HD critters, so that gets overwritten by their class levels, right?



    And totally unsuspicious treasure chests are clearly super-high LA, since they're filled with xp for the Thief! >_> <_<

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I think they're already 1 HD critters, so that gets overwritten by their class levels, right?
    They are, and it does.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Yeah, but the idea of getting out of an infernal contract because the fiend forgot to waterproof it first is hilarious.
    I'll give you that.

    On the flip side ... if the fiend has forgotten to waterproof the contract, they probably aren't going to be able to give you much.
    That, or they're so incompetent that they've given you more than they intended, or otherwise did such a bad job locking the terms of the deal down and closing loopholes you could use, that you wouldn't want to get out of the deal, because they left loopholes you could throw a colossus through that you're taking advantages.
    I'd sooner bet on the former, rather than the latter, myself.
    Although, the latter could lead to an interesting campaign - some politically connected yet incompetent fiend has screwed up making pacts, and the party is directed to fix things, and then cover it all up, by a higher ranking fiend (or expose the matter or otherwise use the situation to their own advantage.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Yeah, but the idea of getting out of an infernal contract because the fiend forgot to waterproof it first is hilarious.
    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    I'll give you that.

    On the flip side ... if the fiend has forgotten to waterproof the contract, they probably aren't going to be able to give you much.
    That, or they're so incompetent that they've given you more than they intended, or otherwise did such a bad job locking the terms of the deal down and closing loopholes you could use, that you wouldn't want to get out of the deal, because they left loopholes you could throw a colossus through that you're taking advantages.
    I'd sooner bet on the former, rather than the latter, myself.
    Although, the latter could lead to an interesting campaign - some politically connected yet incompetent fiend has screwed up making pacts, and the party is directed to fix things, and then cover it all up, by a higher ranking fiend (or expose the matter or otherwise use the situation to their own advantage.
    I actually pity the hypothetical fiend more than the warlock in these situations.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Mimic


    I'm back! This thread isn't dead!

    Mimics are Large aberrations with 7 RHD. Their ability scores are reasonably good: strength, constitution, dexterity, and wisdom all receive bonuses.

    Surprisingly, mimics seem to have two limbs with opposable thumbs, which they can even make slam attacks with if necessary. Those hit by the slams are affected by its Adhesive, which is a form of grappling that may or may not beat FoM. Weapons, too, can be affected by it.

    However, one big problem is that mimics have a land speed of only 10 ft. Even when charging, there's a reasonable chance of them not reaching their targets, and they lack any kind of competitive ranged attacks. As Adhesive is only useful in melee, this is quite a problem.

    Finally, there's Mimic Shape: the bread and butter of these critters. It's kind of poorly-written and probably doesn't play nice with equipment, but there's potential, as it doesn't specify any size limits beyond the volume restriction. Arguably, this allows you to do things such as turning into an inch-thick, mile-long pole and reforming at its other end with two standard actions, or blocking off an entire street by turning into some thin but large surface. Ask your DM.

    I'm going to assign -0 here, though, as mimics have a pretty bad chassis with only one trick that may not even work. Feedback is of course still welcome.

    Next time: squid thingies!
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2017-05-18 at 12:06 AM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Mimic


    I'm back! This thread isn't dead!

    Mimics are Large aberrations with 7 RHD. Their ability scores are reasonably good: strength, constitution, dexterity, and wisdom all receive bonuses.

    Surprisingly, mimics seem to have two limbs with opposable thumbs, which they can even make slam attacks with if necessary. Those hit by the slams are affected by its Adhesive, which is a form of grappling that may or may not beat FoM. Weapons, too, can be affected by it.

    However, one big problem is that mimics have a land speed of only 10 ft. Even when charging, there's a reasonable chance of them not reaching their targets, and they lack any kind of competitive ranged attacks. As Adhesive is only useful in melee, this is quite a problem.

    Finally, there's Mimic Shape: the bread and butter of these critters. It's kind of poorly-written and probably doesn't play nice with equipment, but there's potential, as it doesn't specify any size limits beyond the volume restriction. Arguably, this allows you to do things such as turning into an inch-thick, mile-long pole and reforming at its other end with two standard actions, or blocking off an entire street by turning into some thin but large surface. Ask your DM.

    I'm going to assign +0 here, but feedback is of course still welcome.

    Next time: squid thingies!
    Hmm, the Mimic(real name: Boxford) in Rusty and Co. doesn't seem to have arms...
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Hmm, the Mimic(real name: Boxford) in Rusty and Co. doesn't seem to have arms...
    Has it ever been in a situation where it needed them, though? It may simply choose not to grow any for the same reason you and I would dislike the idea of unnecessary spider legs sprouting from our shoulders.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Has it ever been in a situation where it needed them, though? It may simply choose not to grow any for the same reason you and I would dislike the idea of unnecessary spider legs sprouting from our shoulders.
    First, he, not it. Second, there's a panel where his party can't open a door due to a collective lack of hands. It's fairly early in the comic, too. Third, he's come close to death several times due to sucking in the offensive department. Pretty sure the creator of the comic knows that, though, and the lack of hands is done for the Rule of Funny.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    First, he, not it. Second, there's a panel where his party can't open a door due to a collective lack of hands. It's fairly early in the comic, too. Third, he's come close to death several times due to sucking in the offensive department. Pretty sure the creator of the comic knows that, though, and the lack of hands is done for the Rule of Funny.
    I stand corrected, then.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    I stand corrected, then.
    Seriously, the comic is pure D&D comedy gold. Especially the alt text. Check it out.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I think it would be fun to play a mimic because of all th e nifty thing you can do, though only because I really like transformation abilities.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Mimics are ambush predators, so their 10 ft. speed is not as big a problem as one might think. The whole idea is that their prey comes into reach, thinking it's something else.

    That said, as a PC, the 10 ft. speed is problematic. We're not generally basing LA adjustments in this thread on what CAN be done with help, or I'd say that the addition of a spellcaster using fly or something would overwrite that weakness.

    At 7 HD, are they as good as a 7th level fighter? Low bar, I know, but if so, +0 is probably fair. If they're better, we should check to see if they're better than, say, a 7th level Barbarian or Rogue. The mimic clearly isn't a caster, so comparing them to high-tier classes isn't going to get us anywhere.

    With reasonable mental stats (none seem to be detriments), a Mimic could be a good infiltrator-type scout, and spy. Pick up Disguise, Diplomacy, Search, and Sense Motive, and he'd be very good at such a job.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    you can make a good sneak attack build maybe just sit there to let target get close then grab and coup de grace the target
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Mimics are ambush predators, so their 10 ft. speed is not as big a problem as one might think. The whole idea is that their prey comes into reach, thinking it's something else.

    That said, as a PC, the 10 ft. speed is problematic. We're not generally basing LA adjustments in this thread on what CAN be done with help, or I'd say that the addition of a spellcaster using fly or something would overwrite that weakness.

    At 7 HD, are they as good as a 7th level fighter? Low bar, I know, but if so, +0 is probably fair. If they're better, we should check to see if they're better than, say, a 7th level Barbarian or Rogue. The mimic clearly isn't a caster, so comparing them to high-tier classes isn't going to get us anywhere.

    With reasonable mental stats (none seem to be detriments), a Mimic could be a good infiltrator-type scout, and spy. Pick up Disguise, Diplomacy, Search, and Sense Motive, and he'd be very good at such a job.
    Infiltrator is an entirely possible role for a mimic to fulfill, but I'd like to point out it's quite a narrow niche. Besides, something like a Hairy Spider (+0 LA, 0 RHD) or Shadow creature (+2 LA) will probably be better still.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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