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  1. - Top - End - #841
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Do you write race on your character sheet? Because that is one of the reqs for the feat in question because of the regions involved.
    So, either this is an equivocation fallacy (conflating real-world ideas of race with the entry on your character sheet), or you're suggesting that 100% of the people in that region are race X (with no minority groups period).

    (I should point out too that many 3.5 character sheets do have areas for Home Town and Nationality).
    Given how those don't include the default character sheets given in the PHB, I'm not sure how this is relevant.

    If you want to houserule ignoring the reqs, that's fine.
    I agree, but...it's not really a cost in and of itself. I mean, there might be an opportunity cost if you have access to other region-specific feats, but that's it. It's negligible. Adding "must have red hair" as a prerequisite for a prestige class wouldn't make it meaningfully more restrictive, why would regional stuff?

    an hilariously overpowered Dragon magazine feat
    This is the relevant point. "It's a hilariously overpowered Dragon magazine feat" is both true and relevant. I'll never understand why you got into all that crap about how regional stuff is a meaningful drawback.


    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    I think having nervous new players 'taking control' of oozes is a great way to get their feet wet.
    But oozes don't have feet...

    The only decision the player has to make is when two sources of food are equally close!
    I was about to point out how that would give the impression that RPGs have less choice in them than video games, but then I realized that that was kinda true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    When it reaches the top, you discover that it's also disguised as a Half-Elf Bard.
    What kind of penalty would it be to pretend not to be a cube? I mean, RAW, it's probably only +2 DC, but that assumes races of the same body shape, and I don't think you could convince the DM that a gelatinous cube is basically the same shape as a half-elf. I mean, it's in the name!
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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  2. - Top - End - #842
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Pretending to be another race entirely is +10 to the DC of the Disguise check. Having a different size, type and so on probably increases the DC further.
    Last edited by Caelestion; 2017-06-25 at 09:30 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #843
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I agree, but...it's not really a cost in and of itself. I mean, there might be an opportunity cost if you have access to other region-specific feats, but that's it. It's negligible. Adding "must have red hair" as a prerequisite for a prestige class wouldn't make it meaningfully more restrictive, why would regional stuff?
    Not to prolong this too much, but remember that this thread is making the assumption that the game is being played RAW. Greyhawk regional feats can only be used in the Greyhawk setting, so by definition that restricts a lot of people from using them in their specific games.

    Also, Troll-Blooded can only be taken at 1st level and has a prerequisite feat (Toughness), so you have to have the ability to take two feats at 1st level to get Troll-Blooded. In games where flaws aren't allowed, this effectively restricts it to humans and fighters.

    So, there are some restrictions on the feat. Maybe minor, I'm not sure: so, take it for what it's worth.

    -----

    On a (somewhat) related note, I always felt like oozes should have been given Regeneration. And, Inevitability's comment about a rat splitting an ooze really highlights how silly the Split mechanic is: modeling it with a limited Regeneration ability would have been a more consistent way to handle the mechanics of splitting, in my opinion.

    Also, I always wanted to try playing an ooze, just once, just for the experience of being so weird and alien in an otherwise normal game. Has anyone ever actually played one before?

  4. - Top - End - #844
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    Also, I always wanted to try playing an ooze, just once, just for the experience of being so weird and alien in an otherwise normal game. Has anyone ever actually played one before?
    Awakened Skitterhaunt Hairy Spider, if that counts. I gave it warlock levels. It'd have been great at stealth if the DM didn't arbitrarily nerf every PC.
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  5. - Top - End - #845
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    Also, I always wanted to try playing an ooze, just once, just for the experience of being so weird and alien in an otherwise normal game. Has anyone ever actually played one before?
    Yes, but not a mindless MM ooze.

    This guy: Oozeforged / Dralasite

  6. - Top - End - #846
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    I now desperately want to see a gelatinous cube climbing a wall.
    You don't get to see the climbing part, but Gelly-C from Rusty and Co. is into parkour.


    And I second the idea of Sentinel Ooze/similar templates being free to apply. You'd have to work HARD to make anything with ooze RHD overpowered.

  7. - Top - End - #847
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    Not to prolong this too much, but remember that this thread is making the assumption that the game is being played RAW. Greyhawk regional feats can only be used in the Greyhawk setting, so by definition that restricts a lot of people from using them in their specific games.
    AKA the default setting of 3.5. Also, the possibility of a DM implicitly banning a feat by setting the game in a different setting doesn't seem like it would affect its power any more than the possibility of a DM explicitly banning it because it's from Dragon.

    Also, Troll-Blooded can only be taken at 1st level and has a prerequisite feat (Toughness), so you have to have the ability to take two feats at 1st level to get Troll-Blooded. In games where flaws aren't allowed, this effectively restricts it to humans and fighters.
    So, there are some restrictions on the feat. Maybe minor, I'm not sure: so, take it for what it's worth.
    I never said there weren't any restrictions, just that that one wasn't really a restriction. Pretty sure I mentioned something like that in the same post.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    Also, I always wanted to try playing an ooze, just once, just for the experience of being so weird and alien in an otherwise normal game. Has anyone ever actually played one before?
    maybe not exactly what youre looking for but im hoping to someday play one of these in a game (from pathfinder) http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-pa...lishing/squole

  9. - Top - End - #849
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    A shame that there's no non-homebrew PC-friendly Ooze race. There's Necropolitan for Undead, Warforged for Constructs, Elans, Synads, and Daeklr-Halfbloods for Abberations, Half-Giants for Giants, Tieflings, Aasimar, and the others for Outsiders, Petals, Pixies, and a few others for Fey, Dragonwrought Kobolds for Dragons, and a metric buttload of Monstrous Humanoids of various power levels.

    There are far more creature types that a PC can feasibly be than the ones that can't.
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  10. - Top - End - #850
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    A shame that there's no non-homebrew PC-friendly Ooze race.
    So... just use one of the homebrew ones.

  11. - Top - End - #851
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    So... just use one of the homebrew ones.
    Some DMs are sticklers when it comes to homebrew - which is reasonable, considering how broken homebrew can get*. "Yes, there wasn't an official PC-friendly ooze, so I'm using this homebrewed one that's literally unkillable and has better physical stats than most Outsiders."

    Um, nope.


    *Note that this is absolutely not the case with all homebrew, but you get the point.
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  12. - Top - End - #852
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Some DMs are sticklers when it comes to homebrew - which is reasonable, considering how broken homebrew can get*. "Yes, there wasn't an official PC-friendly ooze, so I'm using this homebrewed one that's literally unkillable and has better physical stats than most Outsiders."

    Um, nope.


    *Note that this is absolutely not the case with all homebrew, but you get the point.
    Indeed, your point is that official WotC stuff is all perfectly balanced, and therefore threads like this one don't exist.

    Excellent point.


    But seriously, if your DM can't identify broken WotC stuff nor identify balanced homebrew, then you should consider upgrading your DM.

  13. - Top - End - #853
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Indeed, your point is that official WotC stuff is all perfectly balanced, and therefore threads like this one don't exist.

    Excellent point.


    But seriously, if your DM can't identify broken WotC stuff nor identify balanced homebrew, then you should consider upgrading your DM.
    Who said that WotC material was balanced?



    I agree with the second part, though.
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  14. - Top - End - #854
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    A shame that there's no non-homebrew PC-friendly Ooze race. There's Necropolitan for Undead, Warforged for Constructs, Elans, Synads, and Daeklr-Halfbloods for Abberations, Half-Giants for Giants, Tieflings, Aasimar, and the others for Outsiders, Petals, Pixies, and a few others for Fey, Dragonwrought Kobolds for Dragons, and a metric buttload of Monstrous Humanoids of various power levels.

    There are far more creature types that a PC can feasibly be than the ones that can't.
    did you not see my post right above yours or is PF stuff not okay?

  15. - Top - End - #855
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Remuko View Post
    did you not see my post right above yours or is PF stuff not okay?
    Sorry, I meant 3.5 races. I probably should have mentioned that.
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  16. - Top - End - #856
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    A shame that there's no non-homebrew PC-friendly Ooze race. There's Necropolitan for Undead, Warforged for Constructs, Elans, Synads, and Daeklr-Halfbloods for Abberations, Half-Giants for Giants, Tieflings, Aasimar, and the others for Outsiders, Petals, Pixies, and a few others for Fey, Dragonwrought Kobolds for Dragons, and a metric buttload of Monstrous Humanoids of various power levels.

    There are far more creature types that a PC can feasibly be than the ones that can't.
    To be fair, it's a lot easier to mentally picture playing/being one of those than it is to do the same with an Ooze.

    Plus, I'm fairly certain that there's a whole lot more in the way of examples of protagonists/archetypes(or characters in general) being Undead, Constructs(robots?), Aberrations(aliens, etc), Giants, Outsiders, Fey, Dragons/Draconic entities, Monstrous Humanoids, in fiction (fantasy and/or sci-fi) than there are examples of protagonists/characters/archetypes being Oozes.
    For that matter ... I can only think of one Ooze/Ooze-like character, and that only because I recently started a re-read/archive binge on the now-finished webcomic Dominic Deegan, wherein said character appears - a tiny "Slime" called Deejah who happens to be an Archmage.
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  17. - Top - End - #857
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Orc



    Orc

    It's an orc. It's good at hitting stuff and bad at abstract math. Yes, it is arguably the best melee race in core, but it's not in need of a positive level adjustment. +0.

    Half-Orc

    Still an orc, but with less strength and better ACFs. Probably weaker than its full-blooded parents (on either side), but there's definitely still a variety of reasons to play one. +0 LA.

    Next are otyughs!
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  18. - Top - End - #858
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I don't think there will be any argument about the orc's and half-orc's LA.
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  19. - Top - End - #859
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Gary View Post
    I don't think there will be any argument about the orc's and half-orc's LA.
    My argument is the lack of actual analysis. I wants my wall 'o text extolling the pros and cons of orcs and half orcs.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Gary View Post
    I don't think there will be any argument about the orc's and half-orc's LA.
    I suppose it's possible that someone might try to make a case for one or both to be an LA -0 instead of a +0. But that'd probably be a waste of time.

    On to Otyughs.
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  21. - Top - End - #861
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    I suppose it's possible that someone might try to make a case for one or both to be an LA -0 instead of a +0. But that'd probably be a waste of time.

    On to Otyughs.
    Did someone say waste of time? Well, I think that the half-orc is definitely--
    +0 is fine.
    Last edited by Celestia; 2017-06-26 at 11:47 AM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Yeah. Next monster please.

  23. - Top - End - #863
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    thog have no problem with orc la

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    That was nifty, Nifft! Thog does not often see uses
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Maybe this is slightly beyond the scope of the thread, but are we sure things like Water Orcs would still be +0? If we're going to use the power of the PHB classes as a yardstick, do elemental subraces still fall into that range?
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Maybe this is slightly beyond the scope of the thread, but are we sure things like Water Orcs would still be +0? If we're going to use the power of the PHB classes as a yardstick, do elemental subraces still fall into that range?
    I'd put the upper bound of +0 as Human, Warforged, Whisper Gnome, and Lesser Planetouched. If that's so, then Water Orcs, with little to recommend them over regular Orcs but a swim speed and a Con bonus, are definitely within the bounds of +0. If any of those four actually deserve +1, then you've got yourself a question.

    Or, if as I notice now you specified, we are using only PHB classes as the yardstick, then I'd say Water Orcs are still only on the strong end of +0, comparable to Human.

    But I imagine real in-depth analysis of UA races is some many threads out, and I may be risking being smote with terrible fury by Inevitability by going off-topic answering your question.
    Last edited by Malimar; 2017-06-26 at 06:30 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Malimar View Post
    But I imagine real in-depth analysis of UA races is some many threads out, and I may be risking being smote with terrible fury by Inevitability by going off-topic answering your question.
    Terrible fury? Don't worry, I haven't got anything like that. IMPLICIT FUTURE VIOLATION OF RULE #256 DETECTED. DISPATCH KILLER DROIDS OF TRANSGRESSION-PREVENTION.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Terrible fury? Don't worry, I haven't got anything like that. IMPLICIT FUTURE VIOLATION OF RULE #256 DETECTED. DISPATCH KILLER DROIDS OF TRANSGRESSION-PREVENTION.
    I'm not sure if white text being shown on the e-mail subscriptions made this more or less funnier...
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  29. - Top - End - #869
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    So, either this is an equivocation fallacy (conflating real-world ideas of race with the entry on your character sheet), or you're suggesting that 100% of the people in that region are race X (with no minority groups period).
    It's not any sort of fallacy - the regions in question are tied to very specific race choices. Have you actually read the articles in question?

    [edit] Apologies: I may have had a misunderstanding of the regional reqs. I thought they were, in some cases, tied to specific races, but I may have been mistaken. [/edit]

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Given how those don't include the default character sheets given in the PHB, I'm not sure how this is relevant.
    Because someone else brought character sheets up? Are you sure you've read what you're commenting on?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I agree, but...it's not really a cost in and of itself. I mean, there might be an opportunity cost if you have access to other region-specific feats, but that's it. It's negligible. Adding "must have red hair" as a prerequisite for a prestige class wouldn't make it meaningfully more restrictive, why would regional stuff?
    You'd have to ask the designers why they felt the need to spell out that region is a prerequisite for these feats. I wouldn't like to hazard a guess.

    If you fully read my comments, you'd note now that twice I've mentioned I sometime waive regional reqs in my own game. I'm not sure I'm entirely following your intent with these comments?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    This is the relevant point. "It's a hilariously overpowered Dragon magazine feat" is both true and relevant. I'll never understand why you got into all that crap about how regional stuff is a meaningful drawback.
    Because someone was pointing out that Regeneration is a negligible cost for a character to enquire. I'm not the designer who decided to spell out regional reqs as, well, reqs. Did you read the series of comments that lead to me bringing up the regional reqs in the first place?

    You might as well say "Hey, Toughness is a rubbish feat, let's ignore that from the reqs as well". Again, I feel the need to refer back to the fact that I've said more than once already I sometimes waive regional reqs from feats in my own games. I accept that it is houseruling, and I don't have an issue with it. In the context of assigning LA, I don't know that taking houserules that vary from table to table into account is particularly productive.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Because someone else brought character sheets up? Are you sure you've read what you're commenting on?
    Yes. Are you?
    Unofficial character sheets are essentially homebrew. (It generally doesn't affect the game, of course; think of it as a UI mod for a TRPG.) Using them in an argument about how important a given feature of background is does not make sense, any more than referencing the Tome of Erotic Fantasy in an argument about the importance of relationships.

    You'd have to ask the designers why they felt the need to spell out that region is a prerequisite for these feats. I wouldn't like to hazard a guess.
    Again, flavor. It both adds flavor to the feat itself and encourages players to think more about their characters' backgrounds. ("If your cleric's a troll-blooded guy from the swamps, what's he doing in the metropolis of Greyhawk?") At least half a dozen people have said this; why do you pretend the designers' motivations are so mysterious?

    If you fully read my comments, you'd note now that twice I've mentioned I sometime waive regional reqs in my own game. I'm not sure I'm entirely following your intent with these comments?
    I read that, I'm just not sure what relevance that has to the rest of the conversation.

    Because someone was pointing out that Regeneration is a negligible cost for a character to enquire. I'm not the designer who decided to spell out regional reqs as, well, reqs. Did you read the series of comments that lead to me bringing up the regional reqs in the first place?
    Yes. But that didn't give me any insight into any of your comments.

    You might as well say "Hey, Toughness is a rubbish feat, let's ignore that from the reqs as well".
    WTF? What does this have to do with anything I've said about regional background stuff? That's such a non sequiter that it goes around to making everything else almost make sense. It almost makes sense that this whole post is a bag of bad logic meant to infuriate me, which is sadly the best explanation I can come up with.

    Again, I feel the need to refer back to the fact that I've said more than once already I sometimes waive regional reqs from feats in my own games. I accept that it is houseruling, and I don't have an issue with it. In the context of assigning LA, I don't know that taking houserules that vary from table to table into account is particularly productive.
    Which makes me wonder why you keep bringing it up.
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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    Negative LA Assignment Thread
    The Tale of Demman, Second King of Ireland, a CKII AAR, won a WritAAR of the Week award. Winner of Villainous Competition 8
    Fanfic

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