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  1. - Top - End - #1231
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    The Rakasha still got a racial +11 to its AC. So its unlikely that those summoned celestrial creatues would be able to hit it. And even if it was the case then a simple Protection from Good keeps them at a safe distance.
    And regarding those SR-None conjuration spells then it does have its own casting it can straight up dedicate towards countering the few spells that might effect it.
    Sorc-only spells like wings of cover can help with occasional inconveniences like (Su) breath weapons and Conjuration (creation) spells.

  2. - Top - End - #1232
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    But regarding the Rast, then yeah i also had to go and look it up in my old MM to figure out what the heck it was. And it does seem a little hard to make much besides a flying blender out of one. But it does have a lot of natural attacks, flight, stat bonuses, and a paralysing gaze. Would say that since it can suposedly be player as early as level 4, then it needs some sort of LA. But +1 or +2 should be enough.
    I'm going to vote for LA+0 mostly because it has a lot of downsides for it.

    The Good: +2 Dex/Wis/Con/Cha and +4 Str. 4 NA. 60ft Good flight. Also Outsider HD are pretty nice all things considered. Fire Immunity is solid.

    The Bad: -8 Int. Minus Eight Intelligence. That is a MASSIVE downside. Also if their flight is ever disabled (IE AMF) they also get their actions gimped. Also only have 5ft movement speed. Also Cold Vulnerability.

    The Meh (Ugly?); Gaze attack is nice, but has no off button. Con damage and Improved Grab are cute, but Improved Grab explicitly requires a bite, not it's 4+ claw attacks and the Con damage will probably kill things slower than any sort of damage you can do in a pin.

    For every thing that stands out as good they almost always have a bad. +some to not intelligence in exchange for dumping intelligence hard. Fire Immunity in exchange for taking extra cold damage. Good Flight, but can't move much at all outside of flying which if they loose it (AMF etc) cuts their actions to non-extant.

  3. - Top - End - #1233
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    How many 4th-level characters (or those a lot higher) are going to encounter AMFs at all, let alone with any regularity?

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    How many 4th-level characters (or those a lot higher) are going to encounter AMFs at all, let alone with any regularity?
    AT 4th level, you'll do fine. As you level up though, your one means of movement becomes a liability.
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  5. - Top - End - #1235
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    For the record, I really hate things that are great when you get them but become a major weakness later on. Which seems to be a running trend for a lot of these monsters.
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  6. - Top - End - #1236
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by TotallyNotEvil View Post
    Pull any generic "good sorcerer spell list" of the same level, see what said sorcerer can do to attempt scratching the rak.
    Putting aside the spells that can...PvP is not a good way of determining LA. I mean, without cheese or unfair prep time, a mid-op fighter has a good chance of taking down a similarly-optimized wizard in a fair fight for much longer than linear warriors are considered above quadratic wizards.


    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    Rasts get horribly shafted by AMF or anything like it.
    "Flight (Su): A rast can cease or resume flight as a free action. A rast that loses this ability falls and can perform only a single action (either a move action or an attack action) each round."
    Emphasis mine.
    Is it that much worse than what casters have to deal with in AMF's?


    Quote Originally Posted by Various
    Rasts!
    You know when I said I've really wanted to use rasts? That was a mistake, I was thinking of ravids. (But can you blame me? They're both D-list critters at best.)
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Putting aside the spells that can...PvP is not a good way of determining LA. I mean, without cheese or unfair prep time, a mid-op fighter has a good chance of taking down a similarly-optimized wizard in a fair fight for much longer than linear warriors are considered above quadratic wizards.
    PVP is really not a good way of determining LA. If you're going to run two builds in combat, you're better off running the same one-shot with each build in parallel, rather than the two builds going head to head.


    Is it that much worse than what casters have to deal with in AMF's?
    At least a caster can take a full round action in an AMF. To, y'know, maybe get out of the AMF. The Rast can only take a single move or standard action. That move action will only get the Rast five feet. You've got the action economy of a Zombie, only worse, because you're slower than a zombie - borderline immobile, really - and the Rast doesn't have the same clause about being able to move and attack with a standard action charge that the zombie does.


    You know when I said I've really wanted to use rasts? That was a mistake, I was thinking of ravids. (But can you blame me? They're both D-list critters at best.)
    Half the time, I think "Rast" is a typo for "Rats".
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Is it that much worse than what casters have to deal with in AMF's?
    It really is. At least a caster can attempt to leave an AMF. Most casters have 30ft+ movement speed and can attempt a double move, or full round run for quad speed. A Rast not only gets their actions neutered but they only have 5ft movement speed. Even the default sized AMF will literally put them multiple rounds back to simply leave.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I operate under the assumption that adventurers don't adventure without a buddy. (It's got to be at least as dangerous as SCUBA diving and hiking, right?) I'd imagine that any party member worth their salt would be willing to drag a near-helpless party member out of an area where they're helpless. So instead of losing one caster action to the AMF, you lose one ally action and (depending on initiative order) one rav—erm, rast action.
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    So instead of losing one caster action to the AMF, you lose one ally action and (depending on initiative order) one rav—erm, rast action.
    So, you're losing not one party member's action but two. Possibly over more than one turn if nobody is close enough to the rast when the AMF hits.

    Yeah, I'd call that much worse.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    And it's still unlikely to ever come up in the first ten levels or so of playing a rast, at which point it's purely an Informed Attribute.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Do agree on that the problem with antimagic field is rarely going to be any sort of issue.
    Though also, the biggest issue with the Rast is really that its spamming a save-or-lose effect as a free action, a while before casters can do it more than a few times each day.
    That will result in the Rast outperforming everyone else, even the full casters, in early level combat encounters.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    So, you're losing not one party member's action but two. Possibly over more than one turn if nobody is close enough to the rast when the AMF hits.

    Yeah, I'd call that much worse.
    Not to mention that even if you get the rast out of the field, he's STILL out of the fight for all practical purposes - because now he's too far away to help and can't get any closer without being crippled again.


    And the rast's gaze might be handy in a fight, but he's a constant hazard to his own party in or out of combat because he can't turn it off.

  14. - Top - End - #1244
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    And the rast's gaze might be handy in a fight, but he's a constant hazard to his own party in or out of combat because he can't turn it off.
    Unless specified otherwise, a creature with a gaze attack can control its gaze attack and “turn it off ” when so desired. Allies of a creature with a gaze attack might be affected. All the creature’s allies are considered to be averting their eyes from the creature with the gaze attack, and have a 50% chance to not need to make a saving throw against the gaze attack each round.
    Straight from the SRD. The Rast can turn the gaze off when it actively wants to do so. Like when its not in combat.
    Last edited by lord_khaine; 2017-07-14 at 07:13 AM.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  15. - Top - End - #1245
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Rast


    "Hey Bob, we need one more fire-based monster for the next book."
    "How about we take a spider, give it a goblin head, and make it fly and suck blood?"
    "How is that related to fire?"
    "We'll just say it is."

    Rast are low-level outsiders with four HD and the fire subtype. Their land speed is abominable, but they are pretty good fliers. Ability scores are reasonable (net total of +4) but intelligence will almost always be terrible.

    Improved Grab and Blood Drain are already nothing special, but a rast's inability to bite and claw in the same round (why, WotC, why?) makes it even worse. At least a mouthpick weapon isn't out of the question: many rogues will value four additional attacks each round.

    Last is paralyzing gaze, which does exactly what you'd expect. Its non-friendliness hurts, though, and Narrowed Gaze isn't exactly easy to get as something barely smarter than a camel.

    I think +0 LA is fine: debate away.

    The very interesting (but also underused) ravid are next.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Rast


    "Hey Bob, we need one more fire-based monster for the next book."
    "How about we take a spider, give it a goblin head, and make it fly and suck blood?"
    "How is that related to fire?"
    "We'll just say it is."

    Rast are low-level outsiders with four HD and the fire subtype. Their land speed is abominable, but they are pretty good fliers. Ability scores are reasonable (net total of +4) but intelligence will almost always be terrible.

    Improved Grab and Blood Drain are already nothing special, but a rast's inability to bite and claw in the same round (why, WotC, why?) makes it even worse. At least a mouthpick weapon isn't out of the question: many rogues will value four additional attacks each round.

    Last is paralyzing gaze, which does exactly what you'd expect. Its non-friendliness hurts, though, and Narrowed Gaze isn't exactly easy to get as something barely smarter than a camel.

    I think +0 LA is fine: debate away.

    The very interesting (but also underused) ravid are next.
    Damn you are ugly LA+40
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    Damn you are ugly LA+40
    I'm fairly sure that WotC actually did operate on that principle.
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  18. - Top - End - #1248
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I cant see how anything that forces 2 save or lose roll each round at level 4 can be LA +0.
    At that level the groups casters only got a few uses of Hold Person. This on the other hand targets everything living, not just humanoids. And its a free action aoe pulse.
    That by the way isnt even that hard to aim when your flying around.

    Alright the Rast might be as thick as a brick sandwich.
    But level 4-10 its going to win most encounters for the part thats not especially tailored towards it.
    Purely by flying up above its targets and turning its gaze on. If you want to replicate this with spells then we are speaking about something on the line of level 7 spells.
    And this will be each round, at a higher DC.

    LA +2 at the very least, purely from the combination of flight and the gaze attack.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I'm fairly sure that WotC actually did operate on that principle.
    agreed my friend
    Last edited by khadgar567; 2017-07-14 at 09:23 AM.
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  20. - Top - End - #1250
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I cant see how anything that forces 2 save or lose roll each round at level 4 can be LA +0.
    At that level the groups casters only got a few uses of Hold Person. This on the other hand targets everything living, not just humanoids. And its a free action aoe pulse.
    That by the way isnt even that hard to aim when your flying around.

    Alright the Rast might be as thick as a brick sandwich.
    But level 4-10 its going to win most encounters for the part thats not especially tailored towards it.
    Purely by flying up above its targets and turning its gaze on. If you want to replicate this with spells then we are speaking about something on the line of level 7 spells.
    And this will be each round, at a higher DC.

    LA +2 at the very least, purely from the combination of flight and the gaze attack.
    +2 LA for a one trick wonder that also hits your friends? You've got to be joking.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    It doesn't scale with level, so it might be strong early on its effect goes down as you level

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    It has essentially always-on flight at 4th-level, which is never a good idea. Whilst you could say that merits +1 LA in and of itself, it would be simpler just not to permit a rast unless they have at least one or two class levels as well.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    It has essentially always-on flight at 4th-level, which is never a good idea. Whilst you could say that merits +1 LA in and of itself, it would be simpler just not to permit a rast unless they have at least one or two class levels as well.
    While flight is really nice, especially at low levels, there are already races with no LA who can fly. So you are basically taking a 4 level class to get a few good abilities like flight, but then you have to take some really bad traits like a penalty to intelligence.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Waker View Post
    While flight is really nice, especially at low levels, there are already races with no LA who can fly. So you are basically taking a 4 level class to get a few good abilities like flight, but then you have to take some really bad traits like a penalty to intelligence.
    Most races with no LA that can fly, as far as I can recall, don't actually have the ability to fly to start with. Such as the Raptoran, or a Dragonborn of Bahamut. Instead the ability to fly scales over the levels until at level 10 you can fly with no penalty.

    Of course, chances are there are options I am missing in this regard.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Most races with no LA that can fly, as far as I can recall, don't actually have the ability to fly to start with. Such as the Raptoran, or a Dragonborn of Bahamut. Instead the ability to fly scales over the levels until at level 10 you can fly with no penalty.

    Of course, chances are there are options I am missing in this regard.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by flare'90 View Post
    Anthropomorphic Bat.
    Also shadows, unseelie fey, and sparrow hengeyokai.
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    eek Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Aren't there some cheap magic items that can negate a gaze? I think sundark goggles interfere with gazes. It could be useful to a party to float 25 feet up and then take off your sunglasses to paralyze select targets.

    If an ally in the party can turn the rast invisible, then it won't hurt its allies and it can float to the enemy's back row to hold down artillery.

    Also while not quite RAW, a rast COULD put a bucket over its head to block its gaze. Technically any helmet would work, because a 1-foot hole is needed for line of effect to work. A baby bonnet theoretically blocks gazes.

    I think the abuses of the flying and paralyzing gaze warrant a positive LA, maybe one that can be bought off. I think perhaps this might deserve a warning symbol, as its weirdness isn't conducive to team play.

    Oh, since we'll never talk about rasts again, I always found it weird how the parasites from Cloverfield looked like rasts. They got those crocodile mouths and those spindly claw legs. They just have a pale palette and a different set of weird powers that don't mesh right. I wonder if there's a real connection or if two designers just had similar ideas for very ugly critters.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    +2 LA for a one trick wonder that also hits your friends? You've got to be joking.
    The only joke is that something that forces 2 save or lose roll each round would go for any less...

    Especially since it dont hit your friends any more than fx a fireball.

    It doesn't scale with level, so it might be strong early on its effect goes down as you level
    Of course it scales?
    Its a supernatural ability. It scales with both HD and charisma.

    Anthropomorphic Bat.
    And everyone knows how well thats balanced against PHB races..
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Rast: LA -0

    Warnings for DM: gaze, flight, intelligence penalty.

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    Post Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist



    • Medium outsider with the fire subtype (hey, you can take that feat that allows you to explode when you die! Woohoo!); 4 of the equally best RHD; 5ft speed, 60ft good flight (beware Anti Magic fields!); 5 natural attacks; +4 natural AC; Str +4, Dex +2, Con +2, Int -8, Wis +2, Cha +2 (net +4 abilities; but that hit to Int? Ouch!); this is a hard chassis to rate. Unless you can exploit the natural attacks, it doesn't easily into any particular role.
    • Decent (but small) array of utility racial skills, but with -8 to Int...meh.
    • Improved grab: OK, but you lack the size or Str to make best use of it; Blood Drain - again, your grappling ability isn't anything to boast about; Su flight with inbuilt weakness/vulnerability; immunity to fire (yay!) with accompanying vulnerability to cold (boo!); Paralyzing Gaze: aside from potentially exploiting natural attacks somehow and a decent fly speed, this is your only noteworthy ability - it's always on, and saving once doesn't provide the common 24 hour immunity; paralysis 1d6 rounds is often a death sentence, but as others have pointed out, your allies are just as likely to be affected as enemies. If your allies are blind or have immunity to paralysis, there will be much rejoicing (I'm thinking about an encounter now with a Rast, some Grimlocks and maybe a Dragon of some kind!).

    If you throw Versatile Spellcaster into the mix, a Rast could make an OK-ish Warmage or Dread Necromancer (at LA +0, you can still just get 9ths). You could also be a martial adept, and get a single 9th or so. You'll suck in the skill point department though.

    Pros: multiple natural attacks (if they work with Soul Eater, fairly tasty), paralysis gaze, immunity to fire, flight.
    Cons: -8 Int, 4 RHD, vulnerability to cold, an oddly specific inbuilt vulnerability if you lose your flight.

    Since the paralysis gaze doesn't discriminate between friend or foe, I'm a little torn between LA +1 and LA +0. I think the inbuilt vulnerabilities, as well as having no clearly defined role, would tip me over to LA +0.

    [edit]Interesting bits of text from Rules Compendium, on Gaze Attacks:

    Quote Originally Posted by RC p.59
    Unless specified otherwise, a creature that has a gaze attack (a gazing creature) can suppress the attack at will without using an action to do so. The gazing creature can also veil its eyes, negating its gaze attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by RC p.59
    Allies of a creature that has a gaze attack might be affected, but they’re all considered to be averting their eyes. Each round, a creature that is averting its eyes has a 50% chance of not needing to make a saving throw.
    I think those two, especially the first, will bump my vote up to LA +1. [/edit]

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