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  1. - Top - End - #331
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Mind Flayer


    Posting should get more regular from now on: here's an extra-long post to make up for the recent lack of a schedule.

    Mind flayers are medium aberrations with 8 RHD. They possess high ability scores all around, especially in the mental department, but even so are not very impressive chassis-wise.

    Fortunately, there's a wonderful variety of special abilities available to them. Their SR (25 + class levels) is insanely high, their 100 ft. telepathy is awesome combined with Mindsight, and their SLAs are all useful to various degrees, even at higher levels.

    Then there's Mind Blast. Mind Blast creates a huge cone of save-or-be-stunned, has a respectable duration, can be used at-will, and is arguably not even mind-affecting. If you have strong-willed, stun-immune or otherwise blast-resistant allies, it's even better.

    Illithids also have Improved Grab and Extract, but the first shouldn't be bothered with. At medium size with only a small strength bonus to amplify your medium BAB you're not grappling anything soon: and why would you with such a beautiful engine of incapacitation at your command? Extract is interesting, but by the time you've managed to quadruple-grapple something you probably could've stunned in three times over.

    Finally, there's a small amount of illithid support outside of core. Graft Illithid Flesh gives access to a number of interesting items (try outfitting your rogue with a few nice natural weapons), albeit at the cost of damaging the will of whoever uses them.

    Illithid Body Tamer is an attempt to turn illithid into a melee character, which is... less than advisable.

    And then there's Illithid Savant: a strong contender for the most powerful PrC in the game. It's similar to the beholder mage in being an unbalanced option for a single race consider inaccessible for PCs. However, where beholder mage has some kind of natural upper limit only TO will break (even if it's: 'cast ten spells as a free action per turn), the only end point for illithid savants is to basically become Pun-Pun.

    As one might expect, balancing this is hard. Even at the current LA of +7, a mind flayer entering Illithid Savant will have obtained all important class features by ECL 20, at which point there's literally no limit to its power.

    Even worse, Illithid Savant is basically the only feasible way to advance a mind flayer: its only other race-specific PrC is crap and it doesn't have any casting to improve.

    Then again, I can hardly raise their LA to +12 just to prevent illithid savant cheese. 9th-level spells are OP, but nobody is going to argue half-elves deserve +4 LA because they'd otherwise able to obtain them.

    Instead, I'm going for a LA of +2* (asterisk for at-will astral projection). Non-savants should be reasonably balanced this way, while savants aren't getting their major power boosts (stealing class features and special abilities) until casters have respectively 7th- and 8th-level spells.

    Feedback is anticipated.

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  2. - Top - End - #332
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Respectfully passing over - and setting aside - Illithid Savant is the right thing to do, in my opinion. Can't balance that insanity through level adjustments.
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  3. - Top - End - #333
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    To be fair to the Illithid Savant, stealing a class feature/ability requires eating the brain of somebody/something with the desired class feature/ability in the first place.

    The stuff that you really want to get? That's generally going to be in the brain of someone or something that's rather hard to eat the brain of.


    Easy enough in backstory, but through gameplay? That's a lot harder, and subject to the DM permitting it.

    After all, say you want to eat the spellcasting ability of a level 15 full-caster. That means you need to eat the brain of a level 15 full c, aster - and what self-respecting full-caster 15 isn't going to have protections up basically 24/7, if not contingencies.
    And, heck, one Freedom of Movement effect is functionally total immunity. Or a contingent teleportation effect



    Given free reign/being unchecked in character creation, an Illithid Savant can be incredibly OP, without question.
    On the other hand ... I kind of expect that any DM who allows Illithid Savant is either going to be watching it carefully with a veto-/ban-hammer ready to go, or is prepared for the crazy that can happen. If a DM blindly approves Illithid Savant and is unprepared ... that's a screwup that's entirely on them, and whoever entered the Illithid Savant probably could have done something nearly as game-breaking without using Illithid Savant, no matter what LA the Mind Flayer has.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I imagine that it is the potential instant death effect of Extract that made WotC price the illithid at +7 LA. +2 seems much more reasonable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    I imagine that it is the potential instant death effect of Extract that made WotC price the illithid at +7 LA. +2 seems much more reasonable.
    To be fair, the at-will AoE stun may as well be instant death for nearly all intents and purposes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    To be fair, the at-will AoE stun may as well be instant death for nearly all intents and purposes.
    With the listed duration, it be fairly trivial to Stun, grapple and then Extract a target before it's ever free of the Stun. Of course only if all the target's allies are equally stunned.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    The illithid is suited to being an ambush predator, provided that it's one on one, which is never how these fights go down.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Hmm... honestly, I can't see why Savant is so OP as you say. I mean, yeah, it's really OP, I can see that, but can someone give me a more detailed example of this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Hmm... honestly, I can't see why Savant is so OP as you say. I mean, yeah, it's really OP, I can see that, but can someone give me a more detailed example of this?
    If you eat the brain of a wizard 17, you get level 17 wizard spellcasting. Eat a cleric 17, get level 17 cleric spellcasting. Eat another Illithid Savant, and you can eat some more brains. Repeat loop until all brains have been eaten.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    If you eat the brain of a wizard 17, you get level 17 wizard spellcasting. Eat a cleric 17, get level 17 cleric spellcasting. Eat another Illithid Savant, and you can eat some more brains. Repeat loop until all brains have been eaten.
    The cannibalization example's a bit extreme, I think, though there is no restriction on doing that. As for eating spellcasters, you only get one spell per spell level the victim knew. You can't get their spell slots(though you do get spells from your ability scores). Extraordinarily powerful, despite this, but unless you indulge in cannibalization, it seems significantly less OP.

    Edit: Okay, now that I think about it, you can get their spell slots, but you still don't get most of their spells known. You can still learn them yourself if the brain came from a Wizard though, right?

    And btw, you can't absorb Beholder Mages, because a large part of their abilities come from physical traits.
    Last edited by danielxcutter; 2017-05-23 at 05:36 AM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Hmm... honestly, I can't see why Savant is so OP as you say. I mean, yeah, it's really OP, I can see that, but can someone give me a more detailed example of this?
    It's basically what Libris said: permanent, stackable bonuses don't tend to be very balanced.

    You could eat a horde of the various low-level monsters that get Toughness and raise your HP to arbitrary levels. You could get every class feature ever, twice, except spellcasting which you only get in a somewhat limited fashion (and even then, gating in solars is still possible). You can eat one of the various high-HD monsters out there and take epic feats a dozen levels before they're meant to be accessible. And that's before getting really creative.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    [QUOTE=Inevitability;22020529]Illithids also have Improved Grab and Extract, but the first shouldn't be bothered with. At medium size with only a small strength bonus to amplify your medium BAB you're not grappling anything soon: and why would you with such a beautiful engine of incapacitation at your command? Extract is interesting, but by the time you've managed to quadruple-grapple something you probably could've stunned in three times over.[quote]
    Also, those abilities require the grapple rules.

    As one might expect, balancing this is hard...
    I approve of balancing ilithids around the assumption of not taking levels in a virtually unbalancable class. Speaking of which...


    Quote Originally Posted by Various
    What's so bad about savants?
    It's not quite as bad as some people say, because over the course of ten levels you only get three class features, two special attacks/qualities, four each of skills and feats, and a limited-use Bardic Lore ability. But those five special abilities can be game-breaking if you choose the right ones. And a note nobody brought up: While spellcasting acquisition is limited, spell-like abilities are not...nor, for that matter, is racial spellcasting. Pay a couple thousand gold to have someone summon a leonal or couatl, then eat their brains to get good at-will SLAs or several levels of spellcasting. And that's not getting into the really cheesy stuff...
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  13. - Top - End - #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    It's not quite as bad as some people say, [...]
    No, it's exactly as bad as that, and worse .

    By RAW, whenever you absorb a class feature from a creature, you get their spellcasting, except that you only get one base slot per level (bonus slots are calculated normally, don't forget that!), and a not-entirely-clearly-defined one spell known of each spell level (or maybe your spell list is just that narrow?).

    What does that mean? Well, eat a druid and get Wild Shape and casting. Eat a wizard, and grab five bonus feats plus casting. You want Turn Undead? Eat an Ur-Priest, and get some bonus accelerated casting. Think Circle Magic is the best of the box? Eat a tasty Red Wizard and stack that casting high!

    The spellcasting doesn't scale, so if you eat a 15th-level brain at level 17, you're two levels behind. Except that the casting stacks with your own (if provided by class levels), so an illithid 8/LA 2/savant 3/wizard 2 (ECL 15) can steal Metamagic Effect from a wizard 7/incantatrix 3, and enjoy that tasty +10 levels of casting for only three levels of Illithid Savant. Or, maybe you should get yourself an incantatrix/mystic theurge for breakfast... the possibilities are insanely explosive.

    Edit: on closer reading, it probably stacks the number of spells of each level (so you'd get [base] + [bonus] + 1 + [bonus] slots total of a given level), not total spellcasting levels, but I'd say you probably use the highest of your caster level for both? It's a little weird, all in all.



    tl;dr Illithid Savant is as game-breaking a game-breaker as the worst game-breaker to ever break a game. Except Manipulate Form.
    Last edited by ExLibrisMortis; 2017-05-23 at 04:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    It's basically what Libris said: permanent, stackable bonuses don't tend to be very balanced.

    You could eat a horde of the various low-level monsters that get Toughness and raise your HP to arbitrary levels. You could get every class feature ever, twice, except spellcasting which you only get in a somewhat limited fashion (and even then, gating in solars is still possible). You can eat one of the various high-HD monsters out there and take epic feats a dozen levels before they're meant to be accessible. And that's before getting really creative.
    You actually do need to eat the brain of whatever you're stealing from.
    If you're getting everything through gameplay, it is a whole lot more limited, and entirely dependent upon the DM allowing it. And if a DM allows you to do things like that in game ... then either the DM's screwed up, or doesn't care that you have all that.
    If you're saying you chain-ate other Illithid Savants in your backstory, and the DM allowed it, then either the DM screwed up, or the DM is prepared for the crazy.



    Mind, I'm not saying that Theory Optimization on an Illithid Savant isn't insane. I'm saying that Practical Optimization, aka, what the DM will actually allow you to get away with, is massively lower, and will depend on the level of game that they want to run. A DM who wants a less nuts game will be more restrictive on the brains that are available to eat; a DM who has embraced the crazy will be less restrictive of the brains available.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Hmm... If a creature gets, for example, "casting as a 17th level Cleric," does that count as one stealable ability? Because that would break it.

    Thinking about it, you would probably only be able to steal it in the same way as spells, because the casting would be treated as Cleric casting for the purposes of how an Ilithid Savant can steal it. On the other hand, it's not casting and it's not a class feature, it's a special quality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    You actually do need to eat the brain of whatever you're stealing from.
    Yes, but you can eat the brain of a called or summoned creature, a cohort, a party member, or anything that can be bribed to accept a true resurrection - costly, but worthwhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by HisHighestMinio View Post
    Hmm... If a creature gets, for example, "casting as a 17th level Cleric," does that count as one stealable ability? Because that would break it.
    If you steal any class feature from a creature that is a spellcaster, you automatically also get their spellcasting, including caster level, (limited) slots, and (limited) spells known.

    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Species
    Acquire Class Feature (Ex): At 3rd level, an illithid savant permanently gains one class feature of a consumed brain’s owner, as a character of that creature’s level in that class. If the former character was a spellcaster, the illithid savant is able to cast one spell of each level available to the character (if the victim was a wizard, the mind flayer must still consult a spellbook or learn from scrolls), as well as any bonus spells provideded by the illithid savant’s ability scores. If the illithid savant already has spellcasting levels, these spells are in addition to those granted by the illithid savant’s spellcasting class levels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I don't think you can do that for a summoned creature. Summons return to their home plane when they die, I don't think they leave a corpse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedWarlock View Post
    I don't think you can do that for a summoned creature. Summons return to their home plane when they die, I don't think they leave a corpse.
    Well if you want to get technical, eating their brains kills them. That means their brain is eaten before they die. I wonder how much a savant needs to digest a brain?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    Yes, but you can eat the brain of a called or summoned creature, a cohort, a party member, or anything that can be bribed to accept a true resurrection - costly, but worthwhile.
    If you can reliably access true resurrection, I don't think the theoretical power of a savant is much to worry about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    If you steal any class feature from a creature that is a spellcaster, you automatically also get their spellcasting, including caster level, (limited) slots, and (limited) spells known.
    Ohhhh, I read that bit as describing what happens if you absorb a creature's spellcasting class feature. That makes more sense RAW-wise. And also more broken-ness.
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    I still think you'd have to eat at least two casters(possibly of the same kind) for Illithid Savant to match up with a full caster, barring cannibalization. In that case, though, all bets are off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    Yes, but you can eat the brain of a called or summoned creature, a cohort, a party member, or anything that can be bribed to accept a true resurrection - costly, but worthwhile.
    Technically two casters on standby with regenerate (or another spell that could fix the corpse per DM ruling) and revivify will cut it. Drop Gentle repose on round 1 and you can do this with one caster.
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by HisHighestMinio View Post
    Ohhhh, I read that bit as describing what happens if you absorb a creature's spellcasting class feature. That makes more sense RAW-wise. And also more broken-ness.
    To be fair, that bit describing what happens if you absorb somebody's spellcasting class feature and it not being an automatic add-on to eating anything/everything else is probably RAI.
    Also ... it appears to not exclude eating their spellcasting and gaining +1 spell slot in addition to their full spellcasting.




    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    Yes, but you can eat the brain of a called or summoned creature, a cohort, a party member, or anything that can be bribed to accept a true resurrection - costly, but worthwhile.
    I'd say eating a Called creature works, but not a Summoned. It probably winds up being a DM call.
    As for eating a Cohort ... technically, sure ... you could eat a Cohort, but that's probably also going to result in penalties to your Leadership score. Definitely the Cruelty penalty, and probably also the "Caused Death of a Cohort" one - which is cumulative per death. Also, the Cohort has to be willing to go along with it - Cohorts are technically NPCs, even if most DMs let the players run them most of the time.
    Eating a Party Member ... is probably actually doable, and there's not that much the DM can do about that.
    As for bribing someone/something to accept a True Resurrection they have to believe you'd keep your end of the bargain, and actually be willing to let you eat their brain - and that's subject to the DM allowing it. IMO, most, if not all, powerful entities are rather unlikely to be willing to let anyone kill them (temporarily or otherwise) to benefit the killer.

    Most of these are subject to varying amounts of DM discretion.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    No, it's exactly as bad as that, and worse
    Some people were talking about it like you could just casually absorb as many things you wanted as often as possible. For instance:
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    You could eat a horde of the various low-level monsters that get Toughness and raise your HP to arbitrary levels. You could get every class feature ever, twice...
    You can't do those. You get Toughness four times max, for up to 12 hit points. You can get one and a half class features twice. Even the trick to absorb the brains of other illithid savants to get the class features back an arbitrary number of times only works if you can find one who has at least two free slots for you to steal (and that's assuming there are an arbitrary number of illithid savants, which is obviously not the case).
    Illithid savants are broken, but not that broken.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    Mind, I'm not saying that Theory Optimization on an Illithid Savant isn't insane. I'm saying that Practical Optimization, aka, what the DM will actually allow you to get away with, is massively lower, and will depend on the level of game that they want to run. A DM who wants a less nuts game will be more restrictive on the brains that are available to eat; a DM who has embraced the crazy will be less restrictive of the brains available.
    The DM either has to restrict the sorts of creatures you encounter in combat so you can't get an unreasonable advantage, or has to provide a reason why you can't eat the tastiest brains. Maybe both. Cheap magic items of brain immolation on death would work, and it might be reasonable for them to be normal if illithid savants are common.

    Trading brains for resurrection might be tempting for someone who has been maimed, or, if you have Reincarnate, for elderly people. On the other hand, someone with interesting abilities likely has the money to afford that already. Consensual brain eating is not very rewarding.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Can the illithid savant discussion become it's own thread? It isn't exactly relevant here, since straight off the bat is was acknowledged and subsequently ignored for fair rating.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    (and that's assuming there are an arbitrary number of illithid savants, which is obviously not the case).
    But... as long as you allow Illithid Savant as a player class, there are an arbitrary number of illithid savants.
    Your players just have to keep making new illithid savant PCs as the old ones are getting eaten...

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    Can the illithid savant discussion become it's own thread? It isn't exactly relevant here, since straight off the bat is was acknowledged and subsequently ignored for fair rating.
    I tend to agree. One abusable PrC for a race shouldn't dominate rating it's LA.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Minotaur


    Q: How do you call a mythical bull-person with a NH2-group attached to it?
    A: An aminotaur!

    Minotaurs, Large monstrous humanoids with 6 RHD, have high strength, moderate constitution, and average to bad other stats. They're capable of wielding weapons in their hands while attacking with their horns, making them an obvious choice for melee characters. Powerful Charge only reinforces this role by making their natural attack even stronger on charges.

    The cow-beasts have one other ability worth mentioning. In an utter perversion of its origin myths, they are immune to mazes magical and mundane, can't get lost, and don't ever get caught flat-footed. The ability may also give them the ability to track creatures without the feat: ask your DM how it works.

    I think a +0 LA is defendable here: minotaurs are a strong melee chassis with enough added abilities to make them a viable choice amongst the alternatives.

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    Post Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Minotaurs As Characters
    Minotaur characters possess the following racial traits.
    • +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence (minimum 3), -2 Charisma.
    • Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
    • Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
    • A minotaur’s base land speed is 30 feet.
    • Darkvision out to 60 feet.
    • Racial Hit Dice: A minotaur begins with six levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +6, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +5, and Will +5.
    • Racial Skills: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 9 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, and Spot. Minotaurs have a +4 racial bonus on Search, Spot, and Listen checks.
    • Racial Feats: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it three feats.
    • Weapon Proficiency: A minotaur is proficient with the greataxe and all simple weapons.
    • +5 natural armor bonus.
    • Natural Weapons: Gore (1d8).
    • Special Attacks (see above): Powerful charge.
    • Special Qualities (see above): Natural cunning, scent.
    • Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Orc, Goblin, Terran.
    • Favored Class: Barbarian.
    For my own table, I'd maybe let Minotaurs go at LA +1, but would take some persuading to get to LA +0.

    Actually, I was misremembering them as 4RHD until I copied the above text. 6RHD hurts.

    Good physical stats, large size, scent, natural armor and natural attack (one than can be pumped to decent levels on an ubercharger build - although you probably wouldn't benefit from pounce).

    Balanced against losing 6 class levels, and a big hit to Int (skills matter, man!)...I'd say a strong LA +0, or a weak LA +1.

    Could somehow use powerful charge in a Dungeoncrasher or similar build?

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