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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    @Thurbane: Well, you can bullrush as a charge action, and powerful charge is explicitly an add-on to an existing charge, so RAW it appears to work-you can gore someone as you smush them into a wall.

    Minotaur is OK as a base for a bruiser, since Monstrous Humanoid HD is merely bad instead of terrible-I would lean towards LA+1 at my table, since that is a decent amount of meat on the bone for a beatstick.
    Last edited by ViperMagnum357; 2017-05-25 at 06:19 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #362
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Minotaur is pretty much what a melee bruiser needs to be; you even qualify for War Hulk straight out of the box. That said, starting at ECL 7 would mean competing with polymorph, 24 hour Wild Shape, and every other 4th-level spell. ECL 6 at least gets you that initiator level that gives you an edge. In other words: starting a melee character at the level where casters are definitely way ahead is not worth a level adjustment.
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  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I remember me discovering the srd at my very beginnings in D&D and finding the Minotaur so OP. +8 to Strength!!!

    Now, I'd favor LA +1 though. I'd clearly take a Minotaur/Barbarian 1 over a Barbarian 5/ Fighter 2.
    Let's take a Half-Orc Barbarian to compare.
    -Same Darkvision
    -Same -2 to Cha
    -12 + 2d10 +4d12 of HPs vs 8 + 5d8 + 1d12 + 14 for the +4 Constitution of the Minotaur: 49 vs 51.

    -The Half-Orc Barbarian can rage 2/day againts 1/day for the Minotaur only.
    -The Half-Orc has -2 Int only, and a total of 26 skill points, vs 19 for the Minotaur (applying their malus to a starting Int of 10)
    -The Half-Orc has traded Trap Sense for the more useful Trapkiller ACF; the Minotaur has nothing in this regard.
    -The Half-Orc has two more feats, one of those to take the Orc or Half-Orc exclusive and useful Headlong Rush.
    -The Half-Orc has tower shield and heavy armor proficiency.

    But:
    -The Minotaur has +8 Strength vs +2 for the Half-Orc. Accounting for Large size that's a net +3 to hit, and a +6 to damage with a two-handed weapon.
    -The Minotaur has +5 NA, effectively +4 because of Large size. That seems more useful than the DR 2/- of the Half-Orc.
    -The Minotaur has Natural Cunning, which beats Improved Uncanny Dodge.
    -The Minotaur has a natural weapon that does not prevent the use of two hands.
    -The Minotaur has an increased reach.
    -The Minotaur deals damage as a Large Creature
    -The Minotaur gets a +4 size bonus to Intimidate, which reduce the effect of the lack of skill pointd to invest in.
    -The Minotaur gets Scent, which not only also reduces the effect of less skill points in Survival, but is a somewhat useful detection mode in its own right.
    -The Minotaur gets Powerful Charge.
    -The Minotaur gets a +4 size bonus to Bull Rushes.
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  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I always thought that half-orcs were a pretty feeble race in 3.5 - what about comparing the minotaur to a dwarf barbarian?

  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    I always thought that half-orcs were a pretty feeble race in 3.5 - what about comparing the minotaur to a dwarf barbarian?

    Or a Orc/Water Orc

  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Natural cunning is absolutely not better than improved uncanny dodge. Natural cunning just makes you immune to being flat-footed. Improved uncanny dodge does almost the same thing and also makes you immune to flanking.

    The best things that the minotaur gets are large size and powerful charge. The rest is either minor or easily obtainable by other methods. Those two are nifty, but you're giving up six class levels to give them. I think +0 is perfectly acceptable.


    You know, I just realized that the half-minotaur template is significantly better than a real minotaur, even if you homebrew it to +2 LA.
    Last edited by Celestia; 2017-05-26 at 07:43 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #367
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I always thought that half-orcs were a pretty feeble race in 3.5 - what about comparing the minotaur to a dwarf barbarian?
    They are not feeble when it comes to bruiser races, or just smashing things in general.

    And as remetagross's nice list shows us, then a Minotaur has a very long list of advantages that puts it ahead of any PHB race when it comes to smashing faces.
    Large size and a natural strenght bonus is really hard to compete with, and if you have a human fighter and a minotaur fighter in the same party, then the Minotaur will overshadow the human to a degree where its no longer funny.
    So i actually dont think the original ECL of +2 were that unfair, especially not in games without ToB.
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  8. - Top - End - #368
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    Exclamation Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    Minotaur is pretty much what a melee bruiser needs to be; you even qualify for War Hulk straight out of the box. That said, starting at ECL 7 would mean competing with polymorph, 24 hour Wild Shape, and every other 4th-level spell. ECL 6 at least gets you that initiator level that gives you an edge. In other words: starting a melee character at the level where casters are definitely way ahead is not worth a level adjustment.
    Quote Originally Posted by remetagross View Post
    Now, I'd favor LA +1 though. I'd clearly take a Minotaur/Barbarian 1 over a Barbarian 5/ Fighter 2.
    I don't think that using Tier 1 classes (i.e. Wizard, Druid etc.) or (dips in) a Tier 4 class (i.e. Fighter) may be the best yard-stick for measuring LA.

  9. - Top - End - #369
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    I don't think that using Tier 1 classes (i.e. Wizard, Druid etc.) or (dips in) a Tier 4 class (i.e. Fighter) may be the best yard-stick for measuring LA.
    Fighter is tier 5, barbarian is tier 4. Anyhow...

    Yes, the minotaur should not be balanced as tier 1. If it was, it'd be LA -0 easily (barring Ur-Priest). I'm just asking myself: how badly would this be blown out of the water? Can it compete with t2? No. Can it compete with t3? Not really. (High?) Tier 4 is where it lands, which is LA +0 territory for a bruiser.
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  10. - Top - End - #370
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    Fighter is tier 5, barbarian is tier 4. Anyhow...
    Well, whaddya know, I was wrong, That's what I get for skimming text.

    However, kind of accentuates my point.

  11. - Top - End - #371
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Gotta agree with Remetagross and go for +1.
    This race is a frontliner's wet dream. It has Large size, hefty natural armor (yes, +5 is a lot, especially considering how the amulet of natural armor is always listed as one of the "big 6"), really good stats, and a "free" (look Ma, no hands!) natural gore attack.
    Compared to a barbarian, the stat increases are better than a permanent rage - and you can take barbarian levels on top of that! The cunning roughly makes up for uncanny dodge. As for decreased skill points due to low Int, they are more than made up for by the various skill-related powers of a minotaur : darkvision, scent, the ability to never ever get lost (in a real game, this comes up far more often than hypothetical arena fights against level 20 T1 casters), a size bonus to intimidate, and speaking Giant for free.

  12. - Top - End - #372
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Minotaur is a +0.
    Sure, it's good for a beatstick/bruiser build, but that's pretty much all it can do.

    -4 Int, -2 Cha, and 6 RHD means you're not going to be a good caster. You're not going to be a good skillmonkey.


    The Minotaur should probably be compared to an ubercharger type build. Because charging is what you can do as a minotaur.



    Being a melee bruiser/ubercharger is useful .. but it's fairly narrow in application. Having a native aptitude for it, and being roughly on par with a melee bruiser/ubercharger of your RHD does not warrant a LA greater than +0, in my opinion.


    CR is generally iffy, but a lot of the "classic" beatstick/melee monsters, especially larger ones, have more RHD than their CR and abilities warrant, just so that they've got a lot of HP.


    The RAW generally overvalues raw melee/physical capability a fairly significant amount.
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  13. - Top - End - #373
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    No cha penalty means it can go Cleric, though the 6 lost levels hurt severely. Still, divine power and righteous might, when you can get them, would be pretty impressive added to its extant chassis.

    That said, War Hulk plays better with its natural proclivities.

  14. - Top - End - #374
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Speaking Giant for free is an advantage? That's the first I've heard of someone's native language being considered a special bonus over someone with a different native language.

  15. - Top - End - #375
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Natural cunning is absolutely not better than improved uncanny dodge. Natural cunning just makes you immune to being flat-footed. Improved uncanny dodge does almost the same thing and also makes you immune to flanking.
    Ah, right, I was working from memory. And Thurbane, about the dip, that is because I figured that Barbarian 7 is not a very realistic build, and, at any rate, weaker than Barbarian 5/ Fighter 2. So comparing with the more powerful build was supposed a fortiori to be worth a comparison with the weaker, more logical build.
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  16. - Top - End - #376
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    Speaking Giant for free is an advantage? That's the first I've heard of someone's native language being considered a special bonus over someone with a different native language.
    Well duh. Of course it's an advantage, it's FREE on top of Common. I'm not saying it's much, I'm saying it's something (I was listing skill-related advantages). Besides, Giant is a pretty good free language. It's a relatively common language among monsters. Giants are often social creatures living in tribes, and IIRC they don't always speak Common (and even when they do, it's always nice to be able to address them in their native language). Being relatively close to humanoids, giant-speaking creatures can often be reasoned with. All in all, a Minotaur character could make a good impression to any giant-speaking creature by displaying a feat of strength and speaking their language.

  17. - Top - End - #377
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    im in favor of LA+0, mainly because how many RHD it has.

    which do you think is better, a 7th level druid (24hr wild shape, 4th level spells) or a minotaur, with no class levels. Case closed

  18. - Top - End - #378
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Gary View Post
    im in favor of LA+0, mainly because how many RHD it has.

    which do you think is better, a 7th level druid (24hr wild shape, 4th level spells) or a minotaur, with no class levels. Case closed
    I really don't think that is a fair comparison. By that line of reasoning, we would not give any LA to just about any monster without racial casting. What seems more just is to compare the Minotaur to a PC that fills the same role but with a LA +0 race, in that case, a charger/frontliner.
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  19. - Top - End - #379
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Agahnim View Post
    Well duh. Of course it's an advantage, it's FREE on top of Common.
    That's an advantage that literally every creature that doesn't only speak Common has. It's also a total wash as regards to LA.
    Last edited by Caelestion; 2017-05-26 at 05:31 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #380
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by remetagross View Post
    I really don't think that is a fair comparison. By that line of reasoning, we would not give any LA to just about any monster without racial casting. What seems more just is to compare the Minotaur to a PC that fills the same role but with a LA +0 race, in that case, a charger/frontliner.
    Comparing to a charger like orc barbarian 1/[crusader or warblade 6] gets very similar results. The orc may be behind 4 points of strength, but the maneuvers, bonus feat/steely resolve etc. are really useful.

    I think the comparison is a little harder for bruisers than for casters. Spells are easy: you determine the highest spell level you have access to (can regularly use, anyway, those 1/year wishes don't count), and that's your approximate power level. Bruisers scale linearly, so the difference between a 16 HD fighter and 17 HD fighter is very small.

    Incidentally, that's another good reason to assign minotaurs LA +0: they may be strongish at ECL 6, but they sure won't be at ECL 16.
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  21. - Top - End - #381
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Agahnim View Post
    Well duh. Of course it's an advantage, it's FREE on top of Common. I'm not saying it's much, I'm saying it's something (I was listing skill-related advantages).
    You're aware that literally every LA +0 race in the PHB besides Human starts play with two languages, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    Incidentally, that's another good reason to assign minotaurs LA +0: they may be strongish at ECL 6, but they sure won't be at ECL 16.
    This is very true.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by remetagross View Post
    I really don't think that is a fair comparison. By that line of reasoning, we would not give any LA to just about any monster without racial casting. What seems more just is to compare the Minotaur to a PC that fills the same role but with a LA +0 race, in that case, a charger/frontliner.
    fair point, but still a well built 6th level non-caster can have a pretty good (50% ish) chance of winning in a 1v1

  23. - Top - End - #383
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Gary View Post
    fair point, but still a well built 6th level non-caster can have a pretty good (50% ish) chance of winning in a 1v1
    Depending on your cheese level, a well built Dragonborn Water Orc Barbarian with the right ACFs and feats would fairly easily beat a stock Minotaur at ECL 6.

    I'm not exactly an op-guru, so I can't fill in the specifics.

    The only customization options the Minotaur really has is feat, skill and gear selection; and bear in mind the Barbarian 6 will have the same options plus more. Something as simple as a Potion of Enlarge Person will cancel out the size advantage of the Minotaur, and rage closes the gap in STR bonuses.

  24. - Top - End - #384
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    When considering how good an option is, we need to compare it against similar things. I believe Minotaur should be LA 0-, because it competes with the Half-minotaur template, which blows Minotaur out of the water for much less ECL loss (LA:+1 vs. 6 RHD).
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I originally thought of comparing the Minotaur to races like Half-Giant and Goliath, then realized we haven't gone that far yet.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    When considering how good an option is, we need to compare it against similar things. I believe Minotaur should be LA 0-, because it competes with the Half-minotaur template, which blows Minotaur out of the water for much less ECL loss (LA:+1 vs. 6 RHD).
    Worth considering that many people don't consider Dragon material official...

    Also, it can be difficult to balance RHD vs. LA. While I agree that LA +1 vs 6RHD is a no brainer, if the numbers were closer, it would be more difficult. LA gives you nothing, while RHD at least give HP, BAB, saves and skill points.

  27. - Top - End - #387
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    LA shall be kept at +0, which seems to be a reasonable balance between those voting for -0, +0, and +1.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Mohrg


    Mohrgs: freaky-looking undead murderers. While the undead type is great, the 14 RHD accompanying it aren't, and medium size isn't remarkable either. Their two natural attacks are a slam that deals unimpressive damage (and weirdly enough seems to be treated as if it's the mohrg sole weapon) and a tongue that makes paralyzing touch attacks. With opposable thumbs to go with it, that's not too bad.

    Ability scores are decent. 21 strength and 19 dexterity are the only notable ones: the others are either nonexistent or average.

    The first of a mohrg's other two special abilities are Improved Grab. This is bad because they're medium-sized beings considerably behind on BAB, and having to give up hands to grapple isn't helpful either.

    The other is at the very least interesting: everything a mohrg kills rises as a mohrg-controlled zombie within days (hello, asterisk!), with no true limit on how many you can get in addition to the ability to ignore Animate Dead's HD caps. There's a number of questions this raises, though.

    For one, can one zombify non-skeletal beings? Are undead gelatinous cubes possible? Undead lantern archons? Undead air elementals?

    Secondly, what does the 'they do not possess any of the abilities they had in life' mean? Would a cloud giant zombie lose its Oversized Weapon ability, even if it'd normally retain it? Or does it refer to ability scores, and is a mohrg leaving immobile, insensate undead in its wake?

    Weirdness aside, I don't think mohrgs would be overpowered even if they did get to keep their infinite spawn. Lots of undead HD ruin nearly any character concept for these guys.

    -0* LA.
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  29. - Top - End - #389
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Whatever they can do, 14 undead HD means these go straight into Sucksville, as if I remember correctly, those give 1/2 BAB, so bad for combat and bad for casting. I don't think I'd play one even with a lenient interpretion of their reanimation and no LA. -0 sounds perfect.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Yeah, the Morgh doesn't have much going for it... It isn't even a very interesting monster. Looks like cannon fodder for when regular skeletons don't cut it anymore.

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