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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Why would their HP be low?

    D12 averages to around the same as 1d6 and 16 CON. That's respectable hp, especially with the first dice maxed. Factor in the DR, which won't make you superman but will add up with the more hits get through your pretty high AC, and it's certainly competitive.

    It's no CON 30 dwarf barbarian, granted, but few things are.

    Besides, dem immunities son.
    Last edited by TotallyNotEvil; 2017-05-30 at 12:00 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #422
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    LA raised to +0, which I admit I was strongly considering myself.

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  3. - Top - End - #423
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by TotallyNotEvil View Post
    Why would their HP be low?

    D12 averages to around the same as 1d6 and 16 CON. That's respectable hp, especially with the first dice maxed. Factor in the DR, which won't make you superman but will add up with the more hits get through your pretty high AC, and it's certainly competitive.

    It's no CON 30 dwarf barbarian, granted, but few things are.

    Besides, dem immunities son.
    No denying the immunities are great; and the DR 5/- will also mitigate your low HP in melee a small amount.

    I still think in the long run, especially for a melee type, having the equivalent of 1d6+3 HP for your first 8 levels isn;t great; and unless you are a Warblade, Barbarian, KNight or one of the other few amount of d12 HD classes, it's only going to get worse.

    For arguments sake, let's say your ECL 8 mummy with 57hp (assuming max HP at 1st level, and no feats or anything else to boost HP) gets breathed on by a CR 7 red dragon (6d10 fire; 33 average). That's an average of 49hp on a failed save (and Ref is likely to be your worst save). If the dragon gets lucky on it's rolls, you're "dead" in 1 breath (0hp = destroyed for undead, no buffer of negative hit points). If the dragon egts lucky on it's 1d4 recharge time roll, you;re in all sorts of trouble.

    I mean, yeah, your HP aren't like a Wizard with a Con penalty, but they're not amazing either.

  4. - Top - End - #424
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    No denying the immunities are great; and the DR 5/- will also mitigate your low HP in melee a small amount.

    I still think in the long run, especially for a melee type, having the equivalent of 1d6+3 HP for your first 8 levels isn;t great; and unless you are a Warblade, Barbarian, KNight or one of the other few amount of d12 HD classes, it's only going to get worse.

    For arguments sake, let's say your ECL 8 mummy with 57hp (assuming max HP at 1st level, and no feats or anything else to boost HP) gets breathed on by a CR 7 red dragon (6d10 fire; 33 average). That's an average of 49hp on a failed save (and Ref is likely to be your worst save). If the dragon gets lucky on it's rolls, you're "dead" in 1 breath (0hp = destroyed for undead, no buffer of negative hit points). If the dragon egts lucky on it's 1d4 recharge time roll, you;re in all sorts of trouble.

    I mean, yeah, your HP aren't like a Wizard with a Con penalty, but they're not amazing either.
    Bolded for emphasis. What? Undead get d12 hp for ever level regardless of class. At least that's what I've always been lead to believe?

  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remuko View Post
    Bolded for emphasis. What? Undead get d12 hp for ever level regardless of class. At least that's what I've always been lead to believe?
    That's if you die and get turned into an undead that specifically says that your HD become d12s.
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  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    That's if you die and get turned into an undead that specifically says that your HD become d12s.
    Fair. I looked up the mummy lord to check and yeah he has D8s. Huh, I always just assumed that was a general rule about undead, trading away con but permanently getting D12 for hp forever. Oops!

  7. - Top - End - #427
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Remuko View Post
    Fair. I looked up the mummy lord to check and yeah he has D8s. Huh, I always just assumed that was a general rule about undead, trading away con but permanently getting D12 for hp forever. Oops!
    Eh, it's an easy mistake to make, especially since about 99% of the time, you get your class levels first and the d12s later.
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  8. - Top - End - #428
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    Exclamation Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    As pointed out, while undead templates usually have this stipulation, it's not a general rule for all undead with class levels.

    I thought the same thing for a long time as well...

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    The Greater Mummy template in Deities & Demigods also converts all HD to d12s, so it's safest just to assume that this should happen to all undead with class levels, regardless.
    Last edited by Caelestion; 2017-05-30 at 05:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    What? All undead get d12s by default. The Mummy Lord has d8s as well as d12s because it has cleric levels in addition to its undead HD.
    That's exactly what we were talking about. Remuko thought that class level HD were changed to d12s as well, and I reminded her that it only happens when you die and get an undead template like Lich or Necropolitan.
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  11. - Top - End - #431
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    Exclamation Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    What? All undead get d12s by default. The Mummy Lord has d8s as well as d12s because it has cleric levels in addition to its undead HD.
    I think we're all in agreement here, saying the same thing? I don't believe anyone is saying undead don't get d12s for their RHD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    The Greater Mummy template in Deities & Demigods also converts all HD to d12s, so it's safest just to assume that this should happen to all undead with class levels, regardless.
    Since you've changed your post, I'll reply and point out that A.) DD is a 3.0 source and, so the Mummy Lord in the MM probably supersedes it and

    B.) stat blocks are notoriously wonky, and rarely a good way to determine RAW.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I changed it because I realised I'd misread what the post said, but I didn't expect to get quoted twice in the intervening three minutes.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Seems to me the ideal tactic for a mummy is to ambush a party to spring Despair on them, smack around everybody who's paralyzed long enough to get them infected with Mummy Rot, and then disappear again. Then keep showing up to inflict a little more damage before disappearing again, in a hit-and-run, horror movie monster sort of fashion.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Regarding the undead HD issue, then i will just mention that the Vampire template does tell you to convert current and future HD to D12. And its the same thing with the Lich. So im certainly thinking its suposed to be this way with all undead HD, no matter what source they get them from.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by TotallyNotEvil View Post
    Why would their HP be low?
    D12 averages to around the same as 1d6 and 16 CON. That's respectable hp, especially with the first dice maxed. Factor in the DR, which won't make you superman but will add up with the more hits get through your pretty high AC, and it's certainly competitive.
    It's no CON 30 dwarf barbarian, granted, but few things are.
    It's also no Con 18 dwarf fighter. I mean, just a bit of effort put into Constitution and a reasonably tanky class* gets you significantly better HP than undead hit dice. The immunities are nice, but they only go so far. The DR helps, but it won't help much against the kind of enemies which make melee characters worry about running out of hit points.
    The lack of a sub-0-HP buffer doesn't help, either.

    *Seriously, why did you choose d6? "Mummies are tougher than your average rogue"? Not as compelling as you probably intended.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Seems to me the ideal tactic for a mummy is to ambush a party to spring Despair on them, smack around everybody who's paralyzed long enough to get them infected with Mummy Rot, and then disappear again. Then keep showing up to inflict a little more damage before disappearing again, in a hit-and-run, horror movie monster sort of fashion.
    I wonder how a mummy could do that with low speed. Maybe secret doors? Maybe it rides on a skeleton horse? Maybe it jumps down from above and then jumps down another hole?
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    I wonder how a mummy could do that with low speed. Maybe secret doors? Maybe it rides on a skeleton horse? Maybe it jumps down from above and then jumps down another hole?
    Boots of Skating.

    Bonus is you get to be the most radical monster in the dungeon.
    Last edited by Malimar; 2017-05-30 at 02:52 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    even though you are no con 18 dwarf fighter you can still be an undead wizard, with faerie mysteries initiate feat, and getting 1d12+int mod hp per level. voila, more hitpoints than a fighter. however a mummy is not the best undead to use with this combination, necropolitan on the other hand...

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    even though you are no con 18 dwarf fighter you can still be an undead wizard, with faerie mysteries initiate feat, and getting 1d12+int mod hp per level. voila, more hitpoints than a fighter. however a mummy is not the best undead to use with this combination, necropolitan on the other hand...
    That is dragon material though. There is a reason for why almost noone allows that.
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  20. - Top - End - #440
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    It's also no Con 18 dwarf fighter. I mean, just a bit of effort put into Constitution and a reasonably tanky class* gets you significantly better HP than undead hit dice. The immunities are nice, but they only go so far. The DR helps, but it won't help much against the kind of enemies which make melee characters worry about running out of hit points.
    The lack of a sub-0-HP buffer doesn't help, either.

    *Seriously, why did you choose d6? "Mummies are tougher than your average rogue"? Not as compelling as you probably intended.
    Or the equivalent of d8s and Con 14. Never said great, but certainly respectable.

    I think you are underestimating the DR. Every hit you take is as if you had another 5 HP.

    So if a Con 18 Fighter 8 has, what, 20-odd extra HP, the mummy equals it after four hits, surpasses from the fifth onwards.

    Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
    Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
    Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.

    That more or less forces most foes to slug it out, and you got a honking Str bonus to go with +10 NA and the DR. You can flat out bypass a lot of otherwise nasty encounters with this.
    Last edited by TotallyNotEvil; 2017-05-30 at 04:09 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #441
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by TotallyNotEvil View Post
    Or the equivalent of d8s and Con 14. Never said great, but certainly respectable.

    I think you are underestimating the DR. Every hit you take is as if you had another 5 HP.
    It's strictly worse than a fighter or barbarian who puts their second-highest ability in Con (very common), and definitely not better than a fighter or barbarian who puts their third-highest ability in Con (reasonably common). The point of comparison is d10s or d12s and Con 14-16 (if not higher). Also, taking levels in classes that have HD smaller than d12s makes the problem worse. It's not awful, especially since they do get DR 5/- and a host of immunities, but it's certainly not good.

    That's only true for physical attacks. Mummies are particularly vulnerable to a particularly common class of non-physical attacks - that is, fire damage, which their DR does not apply to. Even setting their very common vulnerability aside, they still take regular damage from spells, acid, and other energy attacks (which are fairly common). While they might be immune to most things requiring a Fortitude or a Will save (which is a serious advantage - don't get me wrong), they have poor Reflex saves and most builds utilizing them will probably focus on classes that also get poor Reflex saves (most full BAB classes), which makes them very likely to take full damage from those energy attacks.
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  22. - Top - End - #442
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    Post Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Regarding the undead HD issue, then i will just mention that the Vampire template does tell you to convert current and future HD to D12. And its the same thing with the Lich. So im certainly thinking its suposed to be this way with all undead HD, no matter what source they get them from.
    That would be RAI vs. RAW.

    AFAIK, every 3.5 undead template (there's probably an exception out there I'm missing) makes the stipulation about "current and future HD become d12" - this (among other reasons) is why necropolitan is a good template for Wizards and such.

    However, no default rule regarding this applying to all undead with class levels exists that I am aware of.

    I'd be happy to see one: would be of benefit for some of the NPCs in my game.

    I have a Wight Ranger NPC in my game who hates his undead status, so hunts other undead for sport. Being undead, he is immune to many of the special attack of undead, so he's pretty good at it to.

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    ...How have I only now found this thread? Inevitability, your work has been awesome, I'm hoping you'll be able to update with the next monster soon (barring any unforeseen complications of course).
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  24. - Top - End - #444
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Naga (1)


    Double update to compensate for the low posting rate.

    Dark Naga

    These Large, 9 HD-ed aberrations, get 7th-level sorcerer casting as their main schtick, with Eschew Materials for free to make up for their general digitlessness.

    In addition to that, they have above-average ability scores, always-on Detect Thoughts, immunity to mind-reading abilities, a small bonus on saving throws against effects that'd charm them, and immunity to poison.

    They also have a natural bite attack that's more for mouthpick weapons than anything else, as well as a sting that delivers a save-or-lose poison. Too bad poison starts to lose its shine around these levels.

    Can dark nagas keep up with 9th-level sorcerers? Probably: the lost spell level hurts, but they do get a number of goodies in return. That said, I don't think further level adjustment is necessary. Remember: an entire spell level is a large price to pay, and the sorcerer can by then have entered some fancy prestige class.

    Guardian Naga

    At first glance, the guardian naga is what you get when you take the dark naga and advance it by two HD. Sure, their ability scores are a bit higher, but they've lost most of a dark naga's special abilities and their poison got downgraded to constitution damage rather than instant loss. They can spit it a short distance, but I honestly think there's better uses of your action. Sure, you could spend feats on Deadly Spittle and Improved Spit to create cones of constitution damage, but why not just cast a spell?

    There's one small thing in the guardian naga's favor, though: it can pick its sorcerer spells off the cleric list (plus the Good and Law domains') as well. That opens up a lot of options: even if a naga only selects sorcerer spells they still get to use all cleric-specific items (such as those tasty wands of lesser vigor).

    Still, the lost PrC levels are enough to balance this compared to regular sorcerers. +0 LA.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2017-06-05 at 04:14 AM.
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  25. - Top - End - #445
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Aniikinis View Post
    ...How have I only now found this thread? Inevitability, your work has been awesome, I'm hoping you'll be able to update with the next monster soon (barring any unforeseen complications of course).
    Thanks a lot!
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I think even with all the other goodies Guardian Nagas get, they should still be able to obtain 9th-level spells at ECL 20. They lack arms, so no bracers or gloves, and legs, so no boots. Granted, custom crafting is a thing, but still.

    Plus, you know...

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability on the topic of Illithids
    9th-level spells are OP, but nobody is going to argue half-elves deserve +4 LA because they'd otherwise able to obtain them.
    I feel that this applies to the Guardian Naga, too.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    I agree. The Guardian Naga gets some nifty things, but most of them don't matter to a caster. The ability to cast cleric spells is nice, but the party cleric can do that, too, and can do it better. It does add versatility, but that's balanced by the caster level loss. Tha Guardian Naga doesn't need LA.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    man i wish we have wingless liliends as naga instead of these overgrown cobras as monsters
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    man i wish we have wingless liliends as naga instead of these overgrown cobras as monsters
    I thought that was a Lamia. No wait, that's a Yuan-Ti Abomination. Or was it Half-Blood? Or Pure-Blood? Maybe I'm thinking of a Marilith. The good winged snake is a couatl, right? The gist is, adding another half-snake lady would probably get confusing. Nagas are probably human-headed snakes just so you can guess what they are, and even then you have a 50% chance of it being evil or good.

    On topic and regarding their serpentine monster appearance, not having limbs would probably hurt things enough to justify LA+0. Even in a world that socially accepts monsters, there are still levers to pull, buttons to push, keys to turn, and weird emblem puzzles to solve that would probably benefit from one prehensile appendage. You would probably need helpers to dress you even if you could find equipment that fits.

    Also regarding appendages, does innate spellcasting allow a naga to skip out on somatic components? Does it always need to pick still spells?
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

  30. - Top - End - #450
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

    Guardian naga LA changed to +0.

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Also regarding appendages, does innate spellcasting allow a naga to skip out on somatic components? Does it always need to pick still spells?
    Don't worry.

    Spells
    Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows.

    A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.

    A spellcasting creature is not actually a member of a class unless its entry says so, and it does not gain any class abilities. A creature with access to cleric spells must prepare them in the normal manner and receives domain spells if noted, but it does not receive domain granted powers unless it has at least one level in the cleric class.
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