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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

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    Default Barghest as monster PC?

    .
    Suppose the Barghest didn't have the Feed property, what LA would it require?
    Given the above, which classes would best synergise with its abilities?

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    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

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    Default Re: Barghest as monster PC?

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    .
    Suppose the Barghest didn't have the Feed property, what LA would it require?
    Given the above, which classes would best synergise with its abilities?
    Let's see, you get +6 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Int, Wis, and Cha; +6 NA, two claws and a bite, DR/magic and scent; you get Change Shape, and you get some impressively good SLAs. I'd say their LA would have to be "unplayably high." Especially for powerful creatures like this, I prefer to use racial hit die-- basically, treat the racial features as class features, and figure out how many levels of "outsider" would be fair to grant them. In this case... I'd say... oh, call it a 10 HD character (or I guess maybe 6 HD +2 LA or so would probably also be fairish)-- you're talking great physical boosts and useful features stapled on top of the Outsider hit dice, which are excellent in and of themselves...

    I'd be tempted to follow up Barghest 10 with Warshaper 4, as a just all-purpose great melee-type option. After that, or instead... probably some Tome of Battle or Magic of Incarnum stuff-- something that would roughly stack with all those Outsider hit dice.

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
    A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system, by me. Now officially released!

    Grod's Guide to Greatness
    A big book of player options for 5e, by me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Barghest as monster PC?

    Barghest Race:
    Outsider (3 RP) - Comes with Darkvision
    Medium (0 RP)
    Normal Speed (0 RP)
    Advanced Abilities (4 RP) - (+4 Strength, -2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha)
    Bite & Claws (3 RP)
    10 Total RP (No LA )

    -----

    Barghest Class:
    Full BAB
    Poor Fort / Good Ref & Will
    Level 1: DR x/magic - x = 1/2 level + con mod
    Level 2: Barghest Magic
    Level 3: +2 Dex
    Level 4: Feed (Max growth = 1/2 level)
    Level 5: +2 Con
    Level 6: Change Shape (Goblin or Wolf only)

    Barghest Magic: Spell Slots equal to Barghest level. Usable on any spell on spell list. Advance as sorcerer:
    1: 1st level spells
    2:
    3:
    4: 2nd level spells
    5:
    6: 3rd level spells

    Monsters are designed to be around for 5ish rounds so the above structure allows them to mimic what a Barghest will actually accomplish in a single encounter roughly. make a limited spell list up to third level that includes the Barghests official SLAs.

    High Fantasy Point Buy (20 points) along with the above race and class should give a rough approximation of the core Barghest once leveled all the way up to 6.
    Last edited by Kaskus; 2017-04-07 at 09:56 PM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

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    Default Re: Barghest as monster PC?

    So it is LA +2 then.

    Ok, now for phase II.
    Suppose I made the following changes to "Feed", wold it still be possible to use this monster as a PC? What would the LA be then, HD by HD? (6th... all the way to 18th)


    For each 3 times a barghest feeds on the remains of a creature with HD equal to or higher than its ECL, it gains the stated increases to HD, nat. AC, Str & Dex.
    A barghest gains this benefit only when feeding upon victims to which it has dealt at least 50% of the total damage, as well as delivering the killing blow all using natural attacks, and consuming the victims' remains in their entirety (with no more than 20% blood loss).



    Can I work with this, or is it a lost cause?

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    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

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    Default Re: Barghest as monster PC?

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    So it is LA +2 then.

    Ok, now for phase II.
    Suppose I made the following changes to "Feed", wold it still be possible to use this monster as a PC? What would the LA be then, HD by HD? (6th... all the way to 18th)


    For each 3 times a barghest feeds on the remains of a creature with HD equal to or higher than its ECL, it gains the stated increases to HD, nat. AC, Str & Dex.
    A barghest gains this benefit only when feeding upon victims to which it has dealt at least 50% of the total damage, as well as delivering the killing blow all using natural attacks, and consuming the victims' remains in their entirety (with no more than 20% blood loss).



    Can I work with this, or is it a lost cause?
    The issue isn't "who killed the thing" so much as the permanent nature of the boost-- you're literally gaining a level, and a quite good Outsider level at that. (Seriously, imagine a class that gave a d8 HD, good BAB and saves, +Int skill points, and +1 Str, Con, and NA at every level-- pretty sure the verdict would be "boring but effective; high T4/low T3"). Whatever boost you get needs to be temporary, and it needs to not stack with itself-- I'd say you're better off with something more along the lines of Inspire Greatness, or perhaps "gain a +1 bonus to Str, Con, and HD for 1 hour. If you feed again in that time, this bonus stacks with itself, up to a total bonus of 1/5 your hit die," or something to that effect.

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
    A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system, by me. Now officially released!

    Grod's Guide to Greatness
    A big book of player options for 5e, by me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

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    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Barghest as monster PC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    The issue isn't "who killed the thing" so much as the permanent nature of the boost-- you're literally gaining a level, and a quite good Outsider level at that. (Seriously, imagine a class that gave a d8 HD, good BAB and saves, +Int skill points, and +1 Str, Con, and NA at every level-- pretty sure the verdict would be "boring but effective; high T4/low T3"). Whatever boost you get needs to be temporary, and it needs to not stack with itself-- I'd say you're better off with something more along the lines of Inspire Greatness, or perhaps "gain a +1 bonus to Str, Con, and HD for 1 hour. If you feed again in that time, this bonus stacks with itself, up to a total bonus of 1/5 your hit die," or something to that effect.
    Yeah, I thought it was too good to be true

    Your proposal sounds great, but I worry that having such short duration would probably make it near useless in all cases other than when one combat follows another, with just enough convenient time to feed in between.

    What about if Inspire Greatness would last for 1 hour per victim's HD, when the victim must possess at least 1/2 the barghest's HD?
    I envision a greater barghest having the option of continuity, where a second feeding while being affected by Inspire Greatness also bestows Inspire Heroics upon the barghest until the overlapping duration expires, and then just Inspire Greatness for the remainder of the second feeding's duration.

    Sounds reasonable? if so, where does that put the monster's LA?

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