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    Default RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Two days ago was my first game in a new 5e group, with myself as a level 1 wizard. We began in a bar wherein a brawl broke out, as nature intended all adventures to begin. I threw out a Fog cloud in the hopes that it would give us a chance to get out of there, as a brawl is no place for a level 1 wizard. GM asked "What are the effects of Fog Cloud?" So we looked at the description:

    "You create a 20-foot radius sphere of fog centered on a point within range. The sphere spreads around corners, and its area is heavily obscured. It lasts for the duration or until a wind of moderate or greater speed (at least 10 miles per hour) disperses it."

    We looked at this, then the GM shrugged his shoulders and basically continued as though it wasn't there. Nobody was rolling advantage or disadvantage, nobody had significant trouble finding each other. The one time advantage was rolled was when somebody attacked someone who had fallen prone, which probably should've been advantage anyway.

    What is the spell supposed to do? I'm sure my GM will appreciate me having a more concrete answer, since it seemed to blindside him a bit when I pulled it out.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by antipodeF View Post
    Two days ago was my first game in a new 5e group, with myself as a level 1 wizard. We began in a bar wherein a brawl broke out, as nature intended all adventures to begin. I threw out a Fog cloud in the hopes that it would give us a chance to get out of there, as a brawl is no place for a level 1 wizard. GM asked "What are the effects of Fog Cloud?" So we looked at the description:

    "You create a 20-foot radius sphere of fog centered on a point within range. The sphere spreads around corners, and its area is heavily obscured. It lasts for the duration or until a wind of moderate or greater speed (at least 10 miles per hour) disperses it."

    We looked at this, then the GM shrugged his shoulders and basically continued as though it wasn't there. Nobody was rolling advantage or disadvantage, nobody had significant trouble finding each other. The one time advantage was rolled was when somebody attacked someone who had fallen prone, which probably should've been advantage anyway.

    What is the spell supposed to do? I'm sure my GM will appreciate me having a more concrete answer, since it seemed to blindside him a bit when I pulled it out.
    PHB p. 183: A heavily obscured area - such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage- blocks vision entirely. A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition

    Appendix A: Conditions: Blinded p.291
    A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight
    Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.

    Edit:Also, I thoroughly enjoy your word choice of your DM being blindsided by the spell that imparts the blinded condition.
    Last edited by Syll; 2017-04-14 at 08:12 PM.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    That's kind of weird, now that I think about it.

    If RAW creatures in the cloud become blinded, and RAW a creature that is blinded has disadvantage and grants advantage, do the disadvantage and advantage cancel out for no effect for two creatures fighting in the fog, or does one roll three times and take the median value?

    We've always played that advantage and disadvantage cancel each other out, but in this case, it would make Fog Cloud completely pointless.

    As a GM, I would probably rule that everyone has disadvantage to target and be targeted while in the cloud, instead of is blinded, but that's a houserule. RAW it doesn't seem to have an effect.
    Last edited by LordCdrMilitant; 2017-04-14 at 08:19 PM.
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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Syll View Post
    PHB p. 183: A heavily obscured area - such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage- blocks vision entirely. A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition

    Appendix A: Conditions: Blinded p.291
    A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight
    Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.

    Edit:Also, I thoroughly enjoy your word choice of your DM being blindsided by the spell that imparts the blinded condition.
    Yeah, but when blinded creatures attack other blinded creatures (or creatures that can't see them), the disadvantage and advantage cancel themselves out.

    I saw a Kobold PC use Fog Cloud just the other day to cancel out sunlight sensitivity. He threw the fog cloud up 40 feet in the air and didn't have to worry about his sunlight sensitivity while under it.

    But Fog cloud essentially works just like Darkness but a little less powerful. Use it to be able to hide behind or in it, use it to negate a lot of spells, use it when being attacked by invisible creatures to even out the odds, use it to negate any creature's advantage, etc.
    Last edited by Fflewddur Fflam; 2017-04-14 at 08:19 PM.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCdrMilitant View Post
    That's kind of weird, now that I think about it.

    If RAW creatures in the cloud become blinded, and RAW a creature that is blinded has disadvantage and grants advantage, do the disadvantage and advantage cancel out for no effect for two creatures fighting in the fog, or does one roll three times and take the median value?

    We've always played that advantage and disadvantage cancel each other out, but in this case, it would make Fog Cloud completely pointless.

    As a GM, I would probably rule that everyone has disadvantage to target and be targeted while in the cloud, instead of is blinded, but that's a houserule. RAW it doesn't seem to have an effect.
    And there's the explanation, apparently. You're absolutely correct. From the PHB, page 173: "If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20." It really is useless in a bar fight. : /

    .... well, that's not quite true. "A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight," therefore, I could automatically succeed on a stealth check to sneak out of the bar.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    It's an anti-archer/caster spell. A ton of spells require you to see the creature or point of impact for spells. For a level 1 spell slot it can equalize a lot of bad encounters.
    Last edited by Matticusrex; 2017-04-14 at 08:27 PM.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    I don't think it was a waste of a spell slot, no. But I shouldn't have bothered casting it in a tavern brawl. Not unless I intended to sneak out the door on the next turn.... which I probably should have. But something compelled me to stand and swing my dagger. I'm willing to blame a poor understanding of the rules. : P

    Anyway, I think this topic is more or less covered. Thank you for your assistance. <3

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    both sides are unable to see the other, so both have simultaneous advantage + disad. it's useful for 4 things just off the top of my head:

    1) it's impossible to get net advantage or disad, because any number of one is totally canceled by one of the other- this stops enemies from getting stuff like pack tactics, as well as benefits of something like blur
    --- note that this means your DM screwed the pooch, the thing that was prone should not have been attacked at advantage

    2) you're heavily obscured, so you can hide even if it's an open field or featureless room and you're right next to them.

    3) no attacks of opportunity; you can walk away from something for free since it can't see you leave its reach

    4) most spells that aren't AOE require that you see the target- this lets you fight in a good brawl without having to worry about getting "hold person'd"



    by RAW you still know the location of everyone in there who hasn't taken an action to hide, by the way.
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    I look at the lich and smirk a bit, as I bring myself back to my feet

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by antipodeF View Post
    And there's the explanation, apparently. You're absolutely correct. From the PHB, page 173: "If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20." It really is useless in a bar fight. : /

    .... well, that's not quite true. "A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight," therefore, I could automatically succeed on a stealth check to sneak out of the bar.
    Not really-you can be heard.
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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxhound438 View Post
    by RAW you still know the location of everyone in there who hasn't taken an action to hide, by the way.
    The 20 page thread on invisible Bob disagrees with this statement.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matticusrex View Post
    It's an anti-archer/caster spell. A ton of spells require you to see the creature or point of impact for spells. For a level 1 spell slot it can equalize a lot of bad encounters.
    Except, per RAW it doesn't actually do that.

    Obscured Areas only have effects on those INSIDE them. So those archers standing outside the fog cloud now get advantage to shoot everyone inside of it.
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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    The 20 page thread on invisible Bob disagrees with this statement.

    I think he meant 99% of the time.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    Except, per RAW it doesn't actually do that.

    Obscured Areas only have effects on those INSIDE them. So those archers standing outside the fog cloud now get advantage to shoot everyone inside of it.
    "A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque
    fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature
    in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the
    blinded condition (see appendix A)."

    The creature inside the area is blinded, but vision is blocked entirely by the fog, so the archers can't see the target. Adv/dis cancels out.

    Then we get into the stupidity of the invisibility thread where people start arguing that you know exactly where something has moved, even if it's impossible to see it, because it's making sound, so you still know the exact square to aim for even though you can't see where the target moved to or what square it's in.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    Except, per RAW it doesn't actually do that.

    Obscured Areas only have effects on those INSIDE them. So those archers standing outside the fog cloud now get advantage to shoot everyone inside of it.
    You're looking at an old copy of the PHB. The newer, errata'ed version (included in newer SRD as well as newer PHBs) corrects this to say the opposite:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/the-environment/
    A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A) when trying to see something in that area.
    All sane DMs were already ruling this way anyway though, since otherwise a guy holding a candle in a pitch-black cavern can see everything in the cavern perfectly (because he is not obscured) but all the goblins hidden in the darkness cannot see him (because they are obscured), which would be totally insane. The errata just codifies what everyone already knew it was really trying to say: you can't see things that are concealed.

    So, archers inside a fog cloud get advantage to shoot anything not in the fog cloud.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2017-04-15 at 01:44 AM.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post

    So, archers inside a fog cloud get advantage to shoot anything not in the fog cloud.
    I was with you until this line. So....what? First you're talking common sense stuff, then this pops out. How exactly would an archer inside a fog cloud get advantage on something outside the fog cloud, if they cant see?

    If there were any difference between two archers, one inside, one out, it should be that the one outside the fog can actually see an attack coming

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    I rule that the disadvantage caused by heavy obscurement cannot be cancelled out by advantage.

    Creatures flailing away in darkness are always at disadvantage to attack rolls.

    I also rule that you must succeed in a DC-10 dexterity saving throw if you move more than half your speed in Heavy obscurement or you fall over.

    By RAW heavy obscurement blocks sight. This means it stops about 40% of all spells (Hold person, Charm person, Magic missile, Dominate, Hex, Hunters mark, all of the power word spells, Counterspell etc) and completely blocks attacks of opportunity all of which expressly require 'a target you can see.'

    The OPs DM sounds like a bit of a Wally. Apparently all of the combatants in this fight had a perfect sense of orientation despite fighting a swirling combat in the middle of a 30 foot cloud of thick smoke.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    @Dappershire
    That's because some people don't see the rules as making any distinction between blocking sight in the affected area and blocking sight through the affected area. Basically, "Nothing in the fog can be seen" versus "The fog blocks all sight." And the rules really do just say the former for Fog Cloud. Basically, Fog Cloud is written to work the same as mundane darkness in terms of how its obscured if not in how Darkvision works on it, I'm pretty sure that isn't how fog really works either. The errata for heavily obscured allows for it to work right, but Fog Cloud doesn't say it works right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trampaige View Post
    Then we get into the stupidity of the invisibility thread where people start arguing that you know exactly where something has moved, even if it's impossible to see it, because it's making sound, so you still know the exact square to aim for even though you can't see where the target moved to or what square it's in.
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    The alternative is making it impossible to fight in a heavily obscured area, and impossible to fight a creature that is invisible like an invisible stalker. It takes an action to search for a hidden creature and you lose track of the creature when it moves again? And if you can't tell where the creature is when hearing it, what are you searching for? One on one fights would be impossible. And how do you tell someone else where to attack if none of you can see and hearing isn't good enough? It would be impossible to fight in fog, and I don't think that's good for the game. Nevermind what the rules actually suggest. The only stupid thing would be running invisibility like invulnerability.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Your idea of using fog cloud was brilliant but poorly executed: creatures can't see while in the fog cloud, so if you intended to escape, you should have tried to hide and walk away. Advantages and disadvantsges cancel each other out but the DM should make the NPCs behave like they are blinded, one who can't see where the opponent is may hit without disadvantage, but maybe he's hitting his homie which he no longer can identify by sight.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombra View Post
    the DM should make the NPCs behave like they are blinded, one who can't see where the opponent is may hit without disadvantage, but maybe he's hitting his homie which he no longer can identify by sight.
    Has anyone ever had PCs do this?

    "I turn and hit Bob."

    "What?"

    "Eh, we're in fog, how can I know you're not a manticore? Honest mistake. Crit! I take all his stuff."
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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    As a summary of others' posts here:

    Okay, let's say the advantage and disadvantage cancel each other out. You flail blindly, but the defender can't see it coming either. It kinda makes sense.

    Still:

    1) No one can see each other. People may have moved and the square you're targeting may have now containing your friend. Or just be empty.

    2) No opportunity attacks. So it's very good for fleeing.
    Last edited by Cespenar; 2017-04-15 at 04:54 AM.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee_Dragon View Post
    Has anyone ever had PCs do this?

    "I turn and hit Bob."

    "What?"

    "Eh, we're in fog, how can I know you're not a manticore? Honest mistake. Crit! I take all his stuff."
    That's... totally not how I intended to deliver my message... if you are caught in a heavily obscured area and you keep hitting where you were hitting before there might be something different from your previous target in that spot.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    I kinda disagree with the movement. If you're in a fight, and someone calls up fog, you're still locked in that fight. You're not suddenly disorientated. And unless you're a controller, the fight is sticking to the same spot.
    chances to hit others should only occur if someone moves into the square you're fighting in/with, or you move.
    Unless you have Initiative, and call the fog up before anyone can attack. Then they're screwed.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Yeah, my rational brain is crying out for some more possibilities to have accidents happen and other chaotic events that you'd expect when everyone is blind.

    But, let's be honest - they were aiming for a Basic experience here. Not a world of weapon speeds, weapon vs. armor type adjustments, complex stacking of overlapping effects, etcetera.

    They aimed for a few simple effects that make for enough variations to keep fights interesting, without bogging it all down.

    IMO even if it was more realistic and everyone fought with disadvantage inside, all you'd be doing is prolonging the combat, making it annoying and dissuading use of the spell.

    I think this is one of those times when their intent to be brief and to the point and let the few simple rules sort it all out isn't serving the game well. I would have never thought to choose this spell based on how it seemed to work; I only realized the usefulness after people here explained it.
    Last edited by Beelzebubba; 2017-04-15 at 07:12 AM.
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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    You're looking at an old copy of the PHB. The newer, errata'ed version (included in newer SRD as well as newer PHBs) corrects this to say the opposite:



    All sane DMs were already ruling this way anyway though, since otherwise a guy holding a candle in a pitch-black cavern can see everything in the cavern perfectly (because he is not obscured) but all the goblins hidden in the darkness cannot see him (because they are obscured), which would be totally insane. The errata just codifies what everyone already knew it was really trying to say: you can't see things that are concealed.

    So, archers inside a fog cloud get advantage to shoot anything not in the fog cloud.
    Yes! Someone who understands what the errata was stating: "A heavily obscured area does not blind you, but you are effectively blinded when trying to see something obscured by it." Being in a heavily obscured area is a benefit to the one in it because the one in it can see those outside of it. The one outside the heavily obscured area suffers from the blinded condition. Fog cloud is a great spell for retreating, hiding, and especially for ranged combat. Common sense tells you that depending on the type of heavy obscurity, one could only be a certain distance back in it and still be able to see out - heavy foliage, not far back; darkness, as far back as you would like.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by mcsillas View Post
    Yes! Someone who understands what the errata was stating: "A heavily obscured area does not blind you, but you are effectively blinded when trying to see something obscured by it."
    No, it's totally misunderstanding it.

    If someone is in a Fog Cloud, everything outside or inside it is obscured by it.

    If someone is outside a Fog Cloud, everything inside it or on the other side of it is obscured by it.

    Solidly opaque obscurement, unlike darkness, obscures things not just in it. It obscures any attempt to see through it.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    No, it's totally misunderstanding it.

    If someone is in a Fog Cloud, everything outside or inside it is obscured by it.

    If someone is outside a Fog Cloud, everything inside it or on the other side of it is obscured by it.

    Solidly opaque obscurement, unlike darkness, obscures things not just in it. It obscures any attempt to see through it.
    Wait.
    People can't see through the darkness spell (it's written in the description), it's a ball of darkness which effectively blocks sight both from the inside and from the outside.
    The twist that makes it 2nd level is that you can carry it around and that you can use it to dispel low level magical light.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombra View Post
    Wait.
    People can't see through the darkness spell (it's written in the description), it's a ball of darkness which effectively blocks sight both from the inside and from the outside.
    Let's not go there. Just assume I was talking about mundane non-magical darkness and we can avoid completely derailing the thread.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2017-04-15 at 09:05 AM.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Let's not go there. Just assume I was talking about mundane non-magical darkness and we can avoid completely derailing the thread.
    Also: Devil's Sight doesn't see through Fog Clouds.
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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Let's not go there. Just assume I was talking about mundane non-magical darkness and we can avoid completely derailing the thread.
    Yeah sure, I got and share your point anyways, and I agree that some statements are dangerous around here, let's forget about it.

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    Default Re: RAW Fog Cloud does nothing at all?

    Fog Cloud is good when creatures with Blindsight use it (specially if you are trolling a Devil Sight + Darkness Warlock)... Imagine a White Dragon breathing a Fog Cloud and then wreaking havoc with whoever is inside of it.
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