Experience Question

[Dayvig]

One of my players decided to manage a dancing troupe, for fun and profit. Should I award experience for doing this, and if so, how should I go about doing it?

[JNAProductions]

What system?

[Dayvig]

Sorry, it's DnD 3.5. Though this question can be applied to pretty much any DnD-esque system.

[JNAProductions]

Award as much XP as you see fit-if it's 3.5, probably approximately as much as they would've earned if they had made the money by killing monsters.

[RazorChain]

Yup give the player XP but they only go toward the prestige class Dance Troupe Manager.

[Thrudd]

Why would XP be awarded for that? XP is awarded for overcoming the game's challenges. Was there some kind of risk or conflict involved in doing that? Was it part of an adventure? Is it an important milestone in your campaign? If no, then no XP.

The DMG tells you what to reward XP for and how much. At most, this would be a "good roleplaying" XP award for role playing in a fun way (if you and the other players think it is fun). You are in no way obligated to do that, it is completely subjective and only an optional suggestion for giving XP. The amount is up to you, but it should be a very small one-time award, if anything.

[Dayvig]

Why would XP be awarded for that? XP is awarded for overcoming the game's challenges. Was there some kind of risk or conflict involved in doing that? Was it part of an adventure? Is it an important milestone in your campaign? If no, then no XP.

The DMG tells you what to reward XP for and how much. At most, this would be a "good roleplaying" XP award for role playing in a fun way (if you and the other players think it is fun). You are in no way obligated to do that, it is completely subjective and only an optional suggestion for giving XP. The amount is up to you, but it should be a very small one-time award, if anything.

That's what I thought initially too, but part of this particular player's goal is "Gain power and influence", and they're more or less instating themselves as the de-facto leader of the troupe. I'm thinking a modest reward is in order, especially if they use the dancers in some way to gain more power eventually.

[RazorChain]

Well you are the DM you can pretty much reward XP for whatever you want.

[Kane0]

Award XP for every performance they pull off at as if it were an 'encounter', some being easier than others (location, timing, budget, crowd size, clientelle, etc)

[LordCdrMilitant]

I don't use XP in D&D anymore, but in Dark Heresy, I award at least as much if not more XP for playing the part and/or being clever than shooting stuff in the face. Otherwise it reinforces the idea I railed against in the UA Downtime thread: that the game is about fighting random monsters in a maze-like tomb.

[Thrudd]

That's what I thought initially too, but part of this particular player's goal is "Gain power and influence", and they're more or less instating themselves as the de-facto leader of the troupe. I'm thinking a modest reward is in order, especially if they use the dancers in some way to gain more power eventually.

Shouldn't gaining the power and influence be the reward, in itself? power and influence helps you get XP, not the other way around. Gaining in-world power and resources helps the player to win fights and succeed at challenges through force and help from allies. They get the XP after they use their influence to actually do something, like winning a battle or succeeding at a quest.

[Geddy2112]

You can, but as others have said you are awarding power and influence, which has value.

Likewise, in 3.5 the game assumes wealth by level as important to a character's ability to fight, and having the best magical gear is basically another form of experience, so handing out gold is not a bad thing either.

[Red Fel]

That's what I thought initially too, but part of this particular player's goal is "Gain power and influence", and they're more or less instating themselves as the de-facto leader of the troupe. I'm thinking a modest reward is in order, especially if they use the dancers in some way to gain more power eventually.

If the goal was to gain power and influence, and now the PC is the leader of the troupe, that is the reward. PCs don't gain exp for taking coins out of a chest (although they might gain exp for getting to the chest in the first place); the coins are the reward for taking coins. Likewise, the troupe is the reward for forming the troupe. That said...

Award XP for every performance they pull off at as if it were an 'encounter', some being easier than others (location, timing, budget, crowd size, clientelle, etc)

This. Going back to my coin example, you don't get exp for getting the coins. You don't get exp for converting the coins into a sword. But you do get exp for using the sword to convert enemies into corpses.

In the same vein, when the PC uses his troupe of followers to overcome some kind of challenge, to accomplish some kind of specific goal, that may be worth exp. Simply having the troupe isn't, but using them may be.

That said, a caveat. This is the sort of thing that could easily result in one player constantly demanding screen time and exp, leaving other PCs behind. Be sure you award exp for achieving collective goals, instead of just personal ones. It's the same reason a lot of people in these forums discourage awarding exp based on each PC's in-combat kills; some characters are going to have an advantage at that, and it will end up splitting the party in terms of power and fun.

So don't just give this guy exp for putting on performances. Give him exp for putting on performances that benefit the party in some way. When this troupe helps the party overcome a challenge, the party can enjoy the benefit; not just one PC.

[Jay R]

They get experience for it if, and only if, it's a threatening encounter.

They get role-playing opportunities and plot hooks for it otherwise.

[Dayvig]

Thanks for the excellent responses. I gave a small reward for them convincing the previous leader to step down. After that, we'll see if managing them leads to anything else.

It does beg a broader question of what's considered adventuring, though. Say in a hypnothetical scenario, the party wanted to settle down and start a blacksmithing company, and wished to RP the exchanges with clients, managing deals and dealing with economical factors, etc. Would they get experience for that? Yes, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense that doing such 'mundane' things would make them a better wizard, or rogue, but at the same time, should the progression grind to a halt just because the party wants to RP differently?

[Kane0]

Sounds like when my party was content to become the management of a merc company rather than being the mercs.

In 3.PF I believe you do get a trickle of XP for living and doing everyday things, but its not enough to make much of an impact, like a level per decade or something. It doesn't scale though, so once you get beyond the couple few levels you'd have to live aswfully long to keep levelling up that way.
There's nothing stopping you from changing pace. If your party doesn't want to be dungeoncrashers risking their lives for the possibility of untold riches anymore and would rather go in a different direction, who's to say that's badwrongfun? You find something that works for everyone and have at it.

[Thrudd]

Thanks for the excellent responses. I gave a small reward for them convincing the previous leader to step down. After that, we'll see if managing them leads to anything else.

It does beg a broader question of what's considered adventuring, though. Say in a hypnothetical scenario, the party wanted to settle down and start a blacksmithing company, and wished to RP the exchanges with clients, managing deals and dealing with economical factors, etc. Would they get experience for that? Yes, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense that doing such 'mundane' things would make them a better wizard, or rogue, but at the same time, should the progression grind to a halt just because the party wants to RP differently?

That's not adventuring in D&D; their progression should halt because they have stopped playing the game and using their characters' abilities (which are all focused on adventuring). When a bunch of adventurers decide to settle down and start running businesses, then they have retired and the game is over, or everyone makes new characters who want to continue the adventures. D&D's mechanics are all about adventurers fighting things, exploring, and generally getting through dangerous situations. It breaks down into basically free form role playing when you stop doing those things. Don't you all find it super boring when there's no engagement with the actual game mechanics and no tension or excitement or danger?

I mean, if you and your group like to do that, nobody would stop you. But if you want to continue encouraging the group to play D&D and engage with the adventures you have planned, you should not give XP for doing things unrelated to adventuring (ie dangerous and challenging things that risk characters' lives). The game isn't built to do that - but if your players are only interested in that sort of thing instead of normal D&D, you might want to develop a home brew system of more elaborate economic rules, social standing and business dealing to give the players something more to engage with than a couple skill rolls now and then. Make it an actual challenge to successfully operate a business, with many problems for the players to solve and meaningful decisions to make, let them get into the nitty gritty of your fictional world's economy. Award character progression for meeting milestones in advancing their business holdings or improving their social standing. But again, that's not D&D anymore. You'd probably want different character classes, maybe not classes at all, but a series of skills and abilities related to social standing and influence and respect, bargaining ability and different sorts of resources they have access to, that sort of thing. Instead of a list of adventuring equipment to buy, you'd have a list of workers and advisors and craftspeople and experts that you can hire, and a robust system of ways to make deals and call in favors and doing underhanded things to rivals.

[Jay R]

One of my players decided to manage a dancing troupe, for fun and profit. Should I award experience for doing this, and if so, how should I go about doing it?

The reward should be plothooks. They meet a would-be dancer who's a runaway princess. They intend to perform in a small village, but nobody comes to outdoor evening performances because there's a werewolf terrorizing the village.

What they are doing is special and fun. Make the rewards special and fun, by using it to provide unique D&D encounters.

[LibraryOgre]

One of my players decided to manage a dancing troupe, for fun and profit. Should I award experience for doing this, and if so, how should I go about doing it?

You might look into ACKS; they have rules for ventures like this, and how much XP it should award. However, it will require a fair bit of conversion, as ACKS isn't really 3.x friendly.