Super Hero TTRPGs

[Mongobear]

So, my group has been discussing trying out a superhero themed game eventually, mostly due to constant discussions about the MCU movies, recent DC showings like Suicide Squad, and various shows on Netflix.

The issue, is that none of us actually know of or own any of the books for any systems outside of D&D 5e. We discussed Mutants & Masterminds since it is/was a d20 system and we are all relatively familiar with that from D&D gaming for years.

A quick google search showed that there are a bunch of other rules systems besides M&M for this sort of thing, but not a lot of details on how they work.

So, I figured I would ask here. Can anyone give a quick list of some of the more popular Superhero TTRPG systems, and a pro/con of each of them? If we find one that is cheap and easy to use, we would likely buy the books needed for the game, unless they're available online via an SRD.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Masks: A New Generation.

Simple, easy to play, gives the actual feel superhero stories. It's about playing angsty teenage superheroes growing into their powers, though, so avoid it if that's not your thing.

[SimonMoon6]

It depends what you want.

One of the more successful superhero games is Champions. I'm not a fan, but it has its many supporters.

Once upon a time, Villains and Vigilantes was a thing, but I have no real experience with that game.

Some people, think that the Supers rules for Gurps, but I am not a fan.

For playing Marvel and DC characters, the licensed games for them might be worth looking at. For me, there is one game that was very successful, The DC Heroes RPG published by Mayfair and then repackaged by another company (minus the DC stuff) as Blood of Heroes, but one must make sure to buy Blood of Heroes: The Special Edition not the original edition.

Pros and Cons:

Champions is a game where building a character is tedious. And you have to specify every little detail. And there's a lot of math. It's easy math, but there's a LOT of it. Plus, it doesn't really handle super-heroes well (many superhero games oddly fail at this). And that's fine if you just want street-level heroes along the lines of Batman, Daredevil, and Spider-Man. But if you want super super-heroes, forget it. Even if you could actually make someone on the power level of Magneto or Superman, you're going to have to roll soooo many dice for every action, that it becomes absurd.

But if you're a fan of the 3.5 D&D math and don't really like superheroes, then Champions may be the game for you.

----------------------------------------------

For the DC Super-Heroes RPG, the main disadvantage is that it's out of print. It's otherwise a brilliant system. Character creation (for both players and GM alike) is super-easy. Can you describe the character? Then you've just about made the character. It's not a "rules light" system in a bad way. It has just enough rules to describe precisely what you can and can't do (unlike a lot of rules light game systems that make you wing it), but it's still trivially easy to make a character that can change shape into any animal (without having to figure out how many points a wolf would be worth, and how many points an elephant would be worth, and so on, like Champions would make you do), a character that can steal/mimic/neutralize powers (again, without having to figure out how many points worth of blah blah this would affect), a character that can change into any object, a character that's strong enough to lift mountains (or planets) without requiring any more dice for their actions than any other character (you always roll two dice, that's it), and so on.

You can make actual comic book characters that are just as specific and just as vague as they are in the comics. When making Batman, you don't have to ask yourself: does Batman know how to do a foot sweep? Can he punch two people at once? Is he better at punching or kicking? No. That's what Champions would make you do. And this system does a great job of modeling not just superheroes, but any kind of character from any fiction that you can possibly imagine.

Also, if you actually want to use DC heroes, well, the game comes prepackaged with tons of stats for them (the 2nd edition comes with more than the 3rd edition). Plus, the website writeups.org has a huge collection of fan-made stats for characters from a variety of sources, so you can sort of see what sort of stats are appropriate for what kinds of characters.

Cons: this game does require one simple (and obvious) house rule to be reasonable and then it works great. Also, the character creation system is easy for players to exploit, so the GM needs to keep a close eye on character creation. And it may not be the best system if you want to play ordinary people who aren't special in any way.

[Mongobear]

How does Mutants & Masterminds rank up against the other rules systems? I only ask because that is the most well known system amongst our group, and initially was what we were gonna go with.

[Knaight]

How does Mutants & Masterminds rank up against the other rules systems? I only ask because that is the most well known system amongst our group, and initially was what we were gonna go with.

It depends on what you like. It's very detailed and very crunchy (although not to the level of Champions), and covers a very wide variety of available characters while also being aggressively generic. If that all sounds good to you, cool - you've found your game. If that doesn't sound good, it's time to start looking into other options. Is it just not crunchy enough? Champions. Do you dislike the way it handles speedsters? Champions. Would you like an actual setting and a bit more style at the cost of being generic? Godlike or Wild Talents. Lighter and more narrative? Masks or ICONS.

Personally I favor Godlike and Wild Talents, mostly because they both use the ORE system and I really like the core mechanics of said system. These mechanics also show up in Nemesis, which is free, so that's worth taking a look at (it won't work as a superhero system though, as it is ORE Horror and not ORE Superheroes).

[Anonymouswizard]

How does Mutants & Masterminds rank up against the other rules systems? I only ask because that is the most well known system amongst our group, and initially was what we were gonna go with.

Mutants and Masterminds is very powerful, as long as your powers don't rely on limited resources (with some exceptions), or buffing (with some exceptions) you should be fine. This however comes at the price of 'the GM should keep a close eye on powers because they can quickly become broken or overly complex'. It also works best when complications are interpreted generously, as the more Hero Points players get the more they'll spend them and the more the GM can justify the occasional Villain Point (although mine only spent one in the entire game when I had anticipated him and he really needed to beat my Technology roll). There's also an online SRD. People's taste for M&M varies, it's a rules heavy system streamlined almost as much as it can be.

I've not played any others, although I'm personally fond of the Fate Offerings, Venture City and Wearing the Cape (the latter is just out). Fate is a story focused system which revolves around Aspects, short descriptive phrases that when invoked for a Fate Point give a +2 bonus or a reroll, and give you a Fate Point if they cause you to suffer bad stuff. The Fate core rules are available as a Pay What You Want (including $0) pdf and on a SRD, Venture City's rules are also on the SRD and as a pdf (although not PWYW), although Wearing the Cape costs $25 in pdf format. I suggest maybe looking into it, but Fate is very much 'Your Mileage May Vary', I love it, I know people who hate it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

How does Mutants & Masterminds rank up against the other rules systems? I only ask because that is the most well known system amongst our group, and initially was what we were gonna go with.

M&M 3e is one of my all-time favorite systems. Character creation takes a bit of work to learn, but once it clicks (and it's very much a "click" in my experience, more than a slow aggregation of knowledge) you can build pretty much anything. And once you have a character in front of you, it's a sheer pleasure to play-- simple rules, fast turns, and an amazing high-action feel. It's at its best with widely varying parties, rather than groups with similar abilities. Given that you're already slightly familiar, go for it.

Also note that 3e M&M is the same thing as the DC Adventures RPG, meaning you can use the "Heroes and Villains" guides as inspiration and monster manual type resources.

[Mongobear]

M&M 3e is one of my all-time favorite systems. Character creation takes a bit of work to learn, but once it clicks (and it's very much a "click" in my experience, more than a slow aggregation of knowledge) you can build pretty much anything. And once you have a character in front of you, it's a sheer pleasure to play-- simple rules, fast turns, and an amazing high-action feel. It's at its best with widely varying parties, rather than groups with similar abilities. Given that you're already slightly familiar, go for it.

Also note that 3e M&M is the same thing as the DC Adventures RPG, meaning you can use the "Heroes and Villains" guides as inspiration and monster manual type resources.

Replying mainly to bolded part.

We're only "familiar with" M&M in-so-far as afaik it is a d20 system, and most of us have grown up over the years with d20 systems.

None of us own any of the books, and only know of M&M from randomly seeing it on the shelf at our local shop.

[Dr paradox]

I also dig M&M 3e. The damage model is probably the trickiest thing to wrap your head around, and it should be kept far away from power gamers. I've always had fun with it if all the players understand that the goal is to mimic superhero stories, not to be the most effective superhero.

[Anonymouswizard]

Replying mainly to bolded part.

We're only "familiar with" M&M in-so-far as afaik it is a d20 system, and most of us have grown up over the years with d20 systems.

None of us own any of the books, and only know of M&M from randomly seeing it on the shelf at our local shop.

Okay, assuming you've played 3.5 or 4e (potentially 5e although it has vastly different assumptions) then you know the basics of how combat works (standard, move, and free actions, rolling to attack, the basic idea behind trading off attack for damage [or the other way around, M&M has accurate attack as well as power attack, and several related advantages), it's mainly just applying damage that's different, and skills work exactly the same. Gameplay changes to most d20 variants are Hero Points (and related complications), and how every attack imparts conditions based on a saving throw.

Character building is vastly different and difficult at first (even if you're luckier than me and get a GM who actually understands how the system works*). Abilities, skills, defences and advantages are relatively simple, pay the points for what you want (my group got involved in Presence offs, as it's literally the only mechanical way to have your character look badass). Then ask what your powers do, and use the power effects to build it. For example:

Ice summoning (48 points):
-Ice Objects; Create 10 (Innate, Subtle, Permanent) 32 points
--Alternate Effect: Freeze Dood; Affliction (hindered/immobile/paralysed) 10 (Increased Range) 1 point
--Alternate Effect: Freeze Area: Affliction (hindered/immobile/paralysed) 10 (Increased Range, Area) 1 point
--Alternate Effect: Icicle Smash: Strength Based Damage X 1 point
--Alternate Effect: Icicle Arrows: Damage 10 (ranged) 1 point
--Alternate Effect: Icicle Storm: Damage 10 (ranged, area) 1 point
-Ice Sliding: Speed 2 (only while moving on ice) 1 point
-Ice Armour: Protection 10 10 points

The Strength based damage can really be whatever you need to get it up to the attack cap, you're not going to run out of points for the alternate effect. This is only one way to do it, and assumes that the most expensive ability is to create objects out of ice (in this case it's real ice as far as anybody is concerned and doesn't look summoned), and then says this ability to summon ice also lets you hinder people's movement by freezing them in ice, summon an ice sword to attack people, pelt them with ice from a distance, summon ice around yourself for protection (the cold never bothered you anyway, assuming you pick up the right immunity), and slide on ice. It saves points by sticking everything that takes an action into an array.

Note that if I wanted to be realistic I could have the affliction linked to a damage effect (which would cause people hit by the affliction to make a saving throw against both effects), or increase the effect rank of the non area affliction and damage effects, as well as the speed and protection. However this, especially linking a damage effect to the affliction, will change the price of everything and might make it so the array has to be based off of another power.

* Can't have more ranks in a power than the series power level my radioactive superpowered arse. That GM later declared you have to move before your attack, just to screw me over because I could in theory have slipped through a crack in a wall and got away from his villain. Don't get me started on the 'because you took the plot hook I didn't intend you to take instead of the one I did I'm going to sulk because I can't do my speech this session', and the railroading. And the insisting that me knowing the system and building a character I wanted to play was 'taking over everyone else's niche' (I'm sorry, an air mage can't have +5 INT?).

[Arbane]

This however comes at the price of 'the GM should keep a close eye on powers because they can quickly become broken or overly complex'.

These words need to be printed in 25-point blinking text in every superhero RPG. Making game-breaker powers in a point-buy build-your-own-powers system isn't difficult, if you want to. (Some GURPS Supers player figured out how to a power that kills ALL LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE for less points than a starting normal character is made with. Another came up with a power that can be described as 'ascend to omnipotence' for less points than most characters get.)

A newer system I got to try is Prowlers and Paragons. It's a lot less complex than M&M or Champions, for good or bad, but it looks pretty serviceable. It does require a LOT of d6s, though. (At least 10 per player, more if higher-powered.)

Truth and Justice is a fun, fairly rules-light supers RPG.

[Rynjin]

M&M 3e has a leg up on the competitors in that it has an SRD.

Look over the rules yourself, see how you like it. There's supplements that branch off from there, I believe.

[Grod_The_Giant]

These words need to be printed in 25-point blinking text in every superhero RPG.

Fixed that for you. You can do some goofy stuff in M&M, but you can do some damn goofy stuff in 3.5, too. 3.5 is worse in a lot of ways, I think; M&M is at least hard to break by accident. Over the years, I've had a lot more trouble with people making underpowered characters than with people making guys who were too good.

[Knaight]

Fixed that for you. You can do some goofy stuff in M&M, but you can do some damn goofy stuff in 3.5, too. 3.5 is worse in a lot of ways, I think; M&M is at least hard to break by accident. Over the years, I've had a lot more trouble with people making underpowered characters than with people making guys who were too good.

It's not superhero exclusive, but there are plenty of systems where that really doesn't apply - starting with anything that avoids the framework of powers in the first place.

[Telok]

One thing you can do is mostly ignore system specific talk when looking for ideas and advice about setting up and running a supers game. So even while people complain about Champions (which I've successfully played with people who found d20 math difficult) the is something very useful in it, the Campaign Ground Rules Sheet and Character Generation Checklist. They're pretty basic and set the tone, expectations, and normal ranges of power level. Pretty much useful for any supers game.

[JustIgnoreMe]

*sees thread title*

*jumps in to advise on M&M 3rd Ed*

"I think..."

*Sees Grod, AnonymousWizard and others have already said all that needs to be said*

"Never mind."

*leaves thread*

[RobD]

I try to run superhero games for my group every once in a while, with mixed results-they're always willing to do it, but they never really get into it the way they do D&D (and, I seem to have some sort of mental block around creating superhero adventures, so most of the games end up being one-shots, but that's a different topic all together.)

Anyway, I've tried running Mutants and Masterminds with my group, but none of us really liked it that much. Reading through the books (I've read through both 2e and 3e), I see a lot of ideas that I like, mechanics wise, but I seem to have a hard time pulling them all together. The powers creation is especially where things fall flat for us; while I understand the concept around making powers/abilities out of different 'tags', the [execution of it always leaves me in a confused jumble. Somewhere in the middle of figuring things out (usually around the value/measurements table; cripes, I hate that thing), I just get overwhelmed; I think part of the problem is they break powers down a bit too much, and I can't put them back together. A book like "Power Profiles," which I understand to be a collection of premade powers, would be very helpful, but I haven't been able to justify the purchase (my group is always willing to play supers, but are rarely as enthusiastic about it as I am).

So, like has been said, M&M is crunchy. And easy to abuse, even accidentally. And there is (at least for me and my group), a mental disconnect between mechanics and fluff that we ultimately couldn't overcome.

What I have ended up doing instead is modifying 3.5/pathfinder rules to get 'close enough,' and so far it actually works out pretty well. Been through a couple variations, mostly trying to streamline things; my initial attempts were to create a superhero 'class' that revolved around feats, d20 modern-style talent trees, and using spells as powers, pulling most of my info from D20 Modern.
(If you like, here's the document I wrote for it, plus a custom character sheet I whipped up)
http://www.filedropper.com/superheroes
http://www.filedropper.com/robssuper...aractersheetsb

I'm currently attempting at a re-write of those rules, with the intent to go level-less, basing most of the characters abilities on their stats, and only really customizing powers and feats. Skills and feats pull from M&M 2ed (which I like better than 3e), but is definitely intended to run in a more 3.5/pathfinder environment (my players and I like tactical movement, and HP, so, there we are). It still needs work, but overall, I'm optimistic.
http://www.filedropper.com/superherostuffiii-thelegacy


Hope some of that helps...

[Bruno Carvalho]

I'd like to recommend a fantasy RPG. Yes, you want a superhero one, but this system is quite simple and you can VERY EASILY reskin it to a Superhero game with NO change in the base mechanics. Just use the Superhero fluff and it will work (I already did that and it worked like a charm).

http://storygames.pbworks.com/f/otherkind.pdf

It is quite a different approach from the crunchier, "build-your-own-powers" style that M&M and GURPS Supers go with, leaning more towards a FATE-ish looser style, but I really recomend it.

[SimonMoon6]

Ice summoning (48 points):
-Ice Objects; Create 10 (Innate, Subtle, Permanent) 32 points
--Alternate Effect: Freeze Dood; Affliction (hindered/immobile/paralysed) 10 (Increased Range) 1 point
--Alternate Effect: Freeze Area: Affliction (hindered/immobile/paralysed) 10 (Increased Range, Area) 1 point
--Alternate Effect: Icicle Smash: Strength Based Damage X 1 point
--Alternate Effect: Icicle Arrows: Damage 10 (ranged) 1 point
--Alternate Effect: Icicle Storm: Damage 10 (ranged, area) 1 point

The thing I like about The DC Heroes RPG by Mayfair is that all of the above would simply be:

Ice Production: 10

You don't have to build powers to do what they do. They already do those things. If you don't want a power to do all those things, you can take a limitation.

[Hawksteel]

I would also recommend mutants and masterminds. Other good ones are the older marvel super heroes by tsr and gurps.

[Velvetelvis]

Just wanted to mention...the old marvel superheroes game from tsr is great fun.rules light,and best of all...all the books are available for free. So you can get the stats and powers of all the classic marvel heroes.

You'll want to Google up a site called "classic marvel forever"

[Mutazoia]

I'm going to recommend DC Heroes RPG.

I could type more, but all this has been hashed out in a previous thread....

[JustIgnoreMe]

The thing I like about The DC Heroes RPG by Mayfair is that all of the above would simply be:

Ice Production: 10

You don't have to build powers to do what they do. They already do those things. If you don't want a power to do all those things, you can take a limitation.

Which leads to weirdness like the Flash having Air Control... because that's the only way DC Heroes can represent the ability to create a cushion of air to slow his fall, or create a whirlwind to blow away toxic gas. And if you only want one of the Ice Powers, or want to do something with Ice that Mayfair thought only Fire or Gravity or Magic should be able to do, it gets clunky. I prefer effects-based systems to the FASERIP/DC Heroes/Heroes Unlimited method of defining powers.

[JoeJ]

M&M 3e is one of my all-time favorite systems. Character creation takes a bit of work to learn, but once it clicks (and it's very much a "click" in my experience, more than a slow aggregation of knowledge) you can build pretty much anything. And once you have a character in front of you, it's a sheer pleasure to play-- simple rules, fast turns, and an amazing high-action feel. It's at its best with widely varying parties, rather than groups with similar abilities. Given that you're already slightly familiar, go for it.

Also note that 3e M&M is the same thing as the DC Adventures RPG, meaning you can use the "Heroes and Villains" guides as inspiration and monster manual type resources.

Also, the character creation learning curve is not absolutely essential to master before you play the game. The Deluxe Hero's Handbook contains 15 pregenerated archetypes and a Quickstart Character Generator that's basically a Chinese menu approach to creating most of the common super types. You can even use the quickstart generator to randomly roll your abilities, which might or might not be fun for the players and will definitely make creating NPCs faster.