Retiering the Classes: Evangelist, Favored Soul, Healer, Mystic, Spont. Cleric

[Beheld]

I think practically that Sanctified spells really are all or nothing. Either the player and DM are aware of them, or they are not. I can't see a situation where a DM says "you can have this one Sanctified spell" happening very often.

No human being actually believes that. Eggy just boxed himself into a corner with his initial justification for tiering with sanctified spells and now has to pretend that dms make separate decisions on each sanctified spell to justify his "sanctified spells are totally discrete game objects" position.

[arclance]

I would add to this discussion that even if the group has access to BoED, knows Sanctified Spells exist, and realizes the Healer can use them (Healer is itself obscure enough I don't have much of a problem with this assumption) does not mean the player will be allowed to use them.
A lot of times BoED gets kneejerk banned (like BoVD and ToB) because the DM does not like it or "it encourages a play style that is disruptive when introduced into the pool of players I have".
Because of that I could easily see it not being something a player actually has access to.

I know of no DM locally that allows BoED by default, though that is mostly because the don't have time to go through and weed out the few things they would allow from the rest.

[eggynack]

I think practically that Sanctified spells really are all or nothing. Either the player and DM are aware of them, or they are not. I can't see a situation where a DM says "you can have this one Sanctified spell" happening very often.

"You can have just this sanctified spell, because reasons," is unlikely. "You can have all but this sanctified spell, because I don't think that one fits in this game for whatever reason," is more likely. "You can have all the sanctified spells, except the campaign is such that the particular strategy set out by a few of them won't be all that effective," may be more likely still. "You can have only some of the sanctified spells, defined by the fact that we have access to CoV but not BoED for whatever reason," is quite likely. There are advantages to having access to a lot of little objects as opposed to one big object.

No human being actually believes that. Eggy just boxed himself into a corner with his initial justification for tiering with sanctified spells and now has to pretend that dms make separate decisions on each sanctified spell to justify his "sanctified spells are totally discrete game objects" position.

Could you please, seriously, stop acting like these threads are this crazy fight to the death, where I'm boxing myself into corners or trying to trick people because this is high stakes enough that those things can happen? I don't care nearly so much about the outcome here to lie to you or anyone else. I'm nowhere near sufficiently bound to one ironclad position that I can be boxed in, as it were. You're ostensibly trying to convince people, including me, of things here. What you're doing is incredibly counterproductive.

[Beheld]

Could you please, seriously, stop acting like these threads are this crazy fight to the death, where I'm boxing myself into corners or trying to trick people because this is high stakes enough that those things can happen? I don't care nearly so much about the outcome here to lie to you or anyone else. I'm nowhere near sufficiently bound to one ironclad position that I can be boxed in, as it were. You're ostensibly trying to convince people, including me, of things here. What you're doing is incredibly counterproductive.

People say dumb things and then refuse to admit they are wrong about unimportant non life and death stuff, even stuff they don't have knowledge about or strong opinions before they establish the initial point they start defending. You do it all the time. Just because I criticized your silly position doesn't mean I think this is life and death.

[eggynack]

People say dumb things and then refuse to admit they are wrong about unimportant non life and death stuff, even stuff they don't have knowledge about or strong opinions before they establish the initial point they start defending. You do it all the time. Just because I criticized your silly position doesn't mean I think this is life and death.

Having and defending, or not having and criticizing, a position is fine. It's the tone of the comments that is problematic.

[remetagross]

No human being actually believes that. Eggy just boxed himself into a corner with his initial justification for tiering with sanctified spells and now has to pretend that dms make separate decisions on each sanctified spell to justify his "sanctified spells are totally discrete game objects" position.

Actually I do envision such a situation. If I were to DM a player using Sanctified spells, I'd consider forbidding Exalted Fury and the Phoenix flames one, basically those who cost a character level as a sacrifice cost. They put a player into a position of party self-sabotage, since not only do they leave the overall party weaker but also they cost 5000gp and a high-level cleric a pop, which is a loss of time and money for everyone for not-so-impressive effects.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Evangelists and Spontaneous Clerics get full spontaneous access to the entire list, provided they are of Good alignment. So that's cool.

How? I am actually in the middle of playing a good aligned evangelist and being able to bring this to the DM would be cool.

[GilesTheCleric]

How? I am actually in the middle of playing a good aligned evangelist and being able to bring this to the DM would be cool.

That's one of the benefits of Spontaneous Cleric and Evangelist. They count as a Cleric for ACFs and other effects.

As the classes given here are all derivates of the cleric, they possess many traits and features in common with the standard cleric class. Unless otherwise noted, a specialist cleric advances as a normal cleric and shares the following traits:
• Levels of specialist cleric count as levels of a standard cleric in terms of spellcasting ability, qualification for feats and prestige classes, and the like. A character must choose upon first becoming a cleric whether to be a core cleric or one of these variations. Once the choice is made it cannot be changed or unmade, and the character may not later multiclass into the core cleric or a different variant cleric.

While wizards, druids, rangers, and paladins can all prepare sanctified spells, clerics have a special advantage: they can spontaneously cast any sanctified spell, just as they can spontaneously cast cure wounds spells.

[ZamielVanWeber]

That is amazing. Thank you so much. I think, with this information, I will just change my vote for spontaneous cleric and evangelist to 1. Getting access to a huge repertoire of spells, plus spells known, plus the ability to do domain spells at will is invaluable for some domains.

[eggynack]

Actually, wait a sec. Tentative counterargument. "Casters who do not prepare spells (including sorcerers and bards) cannot make use of them except from a scroll." Spontaneous clerics do not prepare spells, so while their clerichood would let them spontaneously cast them were they capable of casting sanctified spells, their spontaneous nature disallows casting in a general sense. I don't think specific versus general applies here either. The line about spontaneous sanctified spells is not constructed as an exception to the line about restriction from spontaneous casters. This might be in the ambiguous/not allowed range.

[Zombulian]

Actually, wait a sec. Tentative counterargument. "Casters who do not prepare spells (including sorcerers and bards) cannot make use of
them except from a scroll." Spontaneous clerics do not prepare spells, so while their clerichood would let them spontaneously cast them were they capable of casting sanctified spells, their spontaneous nature disallows casting in a general sense. I don't think specific versus general applies here either. The line about spontaneous sanctified spells is not constructed as an exception to the line about restriction from spontaneous casters. This might be in the ambiguous/not allowed range.

The line "just as they can spontaneously cast cure wounds spells" adds a bit to this, as Spontaneous Clerics don't have that ability either.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Well, if we determine they can use sanctified spells put me down for one on spontaneous cleric and evangelist. If they cannot put me down for 1.5 for the two of them (two with minimal optimization and one if you really want to be good at it).

[Gemini476]

I would add to this discussion that even if the group has access to BoED, knows Sanctified Spells exist, and realizes the Healer can use them (Healer is itself obscure enough I don't have much of a problem with this assumption) does not mean the player will be allowed to use them.
A lot of times BoED gets kneejerk banned (like BoVD and ToB) because the DM does not like it or "it encourages a play style that is disruptive when introduced into the pool of players I have".
Because of that I could easily see it not being something a player actually has access to.

I know of no DM locally that allows BoED by default, though that is mostly because the don't have time to go through and weed out the few things they would allow from the rest.

To add on to this, Champions of Valor is a Forgotten Realms product. While Faerûn is a popular setting, it is by no means the only popular 3E setting - not to mention how custom settings can be a bit scattershot when it comes to setting-specific products.
And while the Healer is from the Miniatures Handbook, well, that's a product that has some value beyond just D&D. Those minis sold pretty well. Also, it's one of two products that actually has mass battle rules (the other being Heroes of Battle).

Also, a somewhat-common restriction is "PHP plus one book" - you've probably heard of it before. It's usually either that, "Core Only (Actually Just PHB Only, Don't You Dare Touch Those Monster Manual Subraces)", "whatever the DM owns", a book-based ban list (or white list - "Core + Completes", for instance), or blanket allowance. Occasionally there's a more specific list detailing specific feats, spells and classes (the Living Greyhawk Campaign is a neat artifact for that reason), but that's generally too much effort both to write and read.
And by choosing to play a Healer, you're using up your one book on the Miniatures Handbook. A pretty poor choice, but who am I to judge?


I vote the Healer for Tier 4 for most of the reasons already mentioned in this thread (they do a good enough job at healing, and adding Charisma to CLW actually helps keep up with individual attacks even if it falls behind eventually), and the Healer with Sanctified Spells for Tier 3 for the reasons that have already been mentioned. It changes from a full caster with a mediocre list to a full caster with a decent one.


I'm not sure if it's worth considering for tiering since it's so ambiguous, but the Spell Compendium's paragraph on adding spells to the Healer has this little gem:

Healer (Miniatures Handbook): Add spells concerned with healing, providing protections, removing affliction, and providing for needs. In particular, add higher-level versions of spells the healer can already cast, such as mass restoration.

Emphasis mine. The base Healer spell list does the rest - heals, removes afflictions, provides for needs - but is pretty lacking in the "providing protections" bit. Depending on the specifics, that might push it into tier 3 on its own. "Protective buff" is pretty broad.

Since it's so vague it's kind of useless for this discussion, but I felt that it should be brought up.

[Duelpersonality]

Evangelist, Spont. Cleric: Tier 1.5. While some of the cleric's oomph comes from broad spell access day to day, these are still potent.

Favored Soul: Tier 2. Losing turning and domains hurts, but that's relative to one of the strongest classes the game has to offer.

Healer: Tier 3. I'm in the camp with sanctified spell access.

[Rizban]

I have to stick with my original determination of T4 on Healer. While sanctified spells are good and generally enough for a tier bump, I'd say at least 90% of the games I've played in over the years have outright banned BoED/BoVD. My opinion is that if a class is reliant on material from a completely different book to be viable, then that extra material shouldn't be counted when rating the class. If it's from the SRD or the same book, then it's entirely fine to count it. If it's from different books, then it's questionable at best.

[Anthrowhale]

Actually, wait a sec. Tentative counterargument. "Casters who do not prepare spells (including sorcerers and bards) cannot make use of
them except from a scroll." Spontaneous clerics do not prepare spells, so while their clerichood would let them spontaneously cast them were they capable of casting sanctified spells, their spontaneous nature disallows casting in a general sense. I don't think specific versus general applies here either. The line about spontaneous sanctified spells is not constructed as an exception to the line about restriction from spontaneous casters. This might be in the ambiguous/not allowed range.

So, would a Spontaneous Cleric taking the Spell Domain to qualify for Arcane Preparation be able to spontaneously cast sanctified spells?

[Troacctid]

I think Healer is somewhere between 3 and 4. I'm going to say 3.4, because I think the companion is like, actually legit fantastic. The action economy advantage is really nice. The problem is that it takes so long to come online, and you kind of suck until then? So it's awkward.

I do think it's criminal to put the Healer in the same tier as the Adept. That's just unreasonable. If you have Healer at 4, you basically have to have Adept at 5.

[Rizban]

I do think it's criminal to put the Healer in the same tier as the Adept. That's just unreasonable. If you have Healer at 4, you basically have to have Adept at 5.

If sanctified spells are off the table, between the two, I'd be a bit torn and likely choose the Adept. I'd be even more likely to choose Adept if it gains a domain as presented in ECS, again assuming no sanctified spells. With sanctified spells on the table, I'd probably choose Healer, primarily because of the faster spell progression.

To me, they're about equally viable options, so I have no problems having them on the same tier.

[Troacctid]

I mean just look at a 12th level Adept against a 12th level Healer. The Adept has a single 4th level spell if its Wisdom is high enough. The Healer has full access to the entire Cleric spell list up to 4th level and doesn't have to spend her action to cast any of it.

[GilesTheCleric]

I'm a little surprised at all the folks rating Evangelist and Spontaneous Cleric at the top of T2. Is it just sanctified spells that leads you to put them at the top of the tier, or something else in addition?

[Rizban]

I'm a little surprised at all the folks rating Evangelist and Spontaneous Cleric at the top of T2. Is it just sanctified spells that leads you to put them at the top of the tier, or something else in addition?

I see Sorcerer as right near the middle of T2. To me, Mystic is exactly on par with Sorcerer in power or very slightly higher due to a very slightly better chassis. Spontaneous Cleric has faster spell level progression, more spells known (until 18th level), 2 domains, turn undead, better BAB (also Divine Power), better saves, and better hit die, all compensated by having slightly fewer spells/day. Each new domain gained adds 9 new spells known in addition to a new domain power, and it's generally much easier to gain a new domain than it is to add 9 additional spells to a sorcerer.

With Sorcerer at "Mid T2," I would say that puts S.Cleric at "High T2," comparatively speaking.

[Sagetim]

Wait, What? When did the healer get full access to the cleric list up to 4th level spells?

Also, there's not That many sanctified spells. It's not even like, two per level, so it doesn't seem like an objectively large amount of spells to get access to or not. Compared to the Healer's anemic spell list of, like, what is it 8 per level if that? Then sure, it's a statistically significant increase in spell options. But personally I think it's just kind of eeeeehhh~ if that makes any sense. Sanctified spells are great for healers, who have somewhere between 0 and 0 offensive spell options, but for a regular cleric your normal spells like searing light and flame strike and what not are probably going to get a lot more mileage when it comes to fighting evil. Because it doesn't eat into your time to recover from the sacrifices that Sanctified Spells call for.

To answer giles though, I think I can see why they would put evangelist up on top of tier 2. It's losing a little and gaining a lot of potential in domains shenanigans. There are some really nice domain only spells out there, and the evangelist can potentially cast them as spontaneous spells until they run out of slots.

[Rizban]

Wait, What? When did the healer get full access to the cleric list up to 4th level spells?

Lammasu companion casts spells as a 7th-level cleric.

[eggynack]

Bout time for results. Actually kinda late for results. But results. And new thread tomorrow. Not sure what it's gonna be. Maybe something I'm not as into, like incarnum or psionics. Getting sidetracked. The results were pretty much as you'd expect. Two for everything but healer, three for healer. I feel like there was some interesting discussion though.

So, would a Spontaneous Cleric taking the Spell Domain to qualify for Arcane Preparation be able to spontaneously cast sanctified spells?

I dunno. Maybe. It's an interesting strategy. I mean, I'm just getting on the, "This maybe doesn't work train," now.

I'm a little surprised at all the folks rating Evangelist and Spontaneous Cleric at the top of T2. Is it just sanctified spells that leads you to put them at the top of the tier, or something else in addition?

I'd expect it to be that. It's a lot of spells. Still not sure you actually get them though. The argument against seems solid.

Also, there's not That many sanctified spells. It's not even like, two per level, so it doesn't seem like an objectively large amount of spells to get access to or not. Compared to the Healer's anemic spell list of, like, what is it 8 per level if that? Then sure, it's a statistically significant increase in spell options. But personally I think it's just kind of eeeeehhh~ if that makes any sense. Sanctified spells are great for healers, who have somewhere between 0 and 0 offensive spell options, but for a regular cleric your normal spells like searing light and flame strike and what not are probably going to get a lot more mileage when it comes to fighting evil. Because it doesn't eat into your time to recover from the sacrifices that Sanctified Spells call for.

It's somewhat more than two per level. Maybe it drops to less if you exclude crap? The firsts, aside from vision of punishment (and then only at later levels), and the seconds, aside from luminous armor, are pretty mediocre, but there are like six different third level sanctified spells in the BoED, and you get to add create lantern archon in CoV. You're getting at least three solid entries, archon, hammer, and aspect, with a few side benefits. Fourths get you like three or four spells. Greater luminous, animate with the spirit, and celestial fortress are more or less whole spells, and then I maybe count sunmantle and diamond spray as one spell in total. Fifths are a bit anemic, but inquisition is kinda great. So put that down for a one. Sixths have valiant steed, which is great, and benign projection, which is reasonable, and the others maybe get you to three effective spells. Sevenths have cry of ysgard and constricting chains as whole spells, and then maybe the others are about one spell again. eights have nothing, and that sucks, and 9th's have nothing too, but I'm just not gonna count that either way, because you already have sufficient power from your other spells that nothing else matters.

So, tallying it up. Looks like around 15-17, maybe 18, for eight spell levels? Yeah, I guess it was two per level. It's a pretty reasonable two per level though. It seems significant on a spontaneous build. You're getting only a few spells known, usually like three or four including domains, so this is like a 50% bump. More, sometimes. Less, when the lower percentage matters less. The biggest benefit is on odd levels, for the spontaneous cleric. At those levels, it's just domain spells. So, two spells known, and one or both of them could be mediocre depending on the level and the domains. That's over a 100% increase. Great deal. It transforms odd levels from, "You have an advantage over sorcerers, but it's not a perfect situation," to, "You're just casting totally normally on odd levels, more or less." Which is good. Y'know, assuming this works.

[GilesTheCleric]

I'd expect it to be that. It's a lot of spells. Still not sure you actually get them though. The argument against seems solid.

I just expected more explanations about them to include the domains. I'm also not convinced, but I'll take a hard look at all the RAW later.

[Troacctid]

Wait, What? When did the healer get full access to the cleric list up to 4th level spells?

Like I said, companions are legit.

You get 8th level spells at Healer 12 as well via the gynosphinx.

[eggynack]

I just expected more explanations about them to include the domains.

Well, in all fairness, domains are an assumed element of the classes, while sanctified spells are decidedly not. Sanctified spells are that extra thing that might arguably push them over the top. That it improves odd levels so much makes it especially interesting.

I'm also not convinced, but I'll take a hard look at all the RAW later.

As I noted, kinda something I threw together, argument-wise, but I think it holds up to scrutiny decently. Convinced me at least somewhat, especially after that thing about spontaneous clerics lacking spontaneous cure spells (at least in the usual sense).

[Sagetim]

Like I said, companions are legit.

You get 8th level spells at Healer 12 as well via the gynosphinx.

Oh, well, that seems pretty handy, along with the lammasu thing too. I think your milage is going to vary with the companions though, but it wold be the kind of varying that you get from group to group anyway. Like, if the gm controls all companions and requires you to provide orders or they do their own thing, that's going to be different than you controlling it directly different than each player controlling someone elses' companion and so on. Healer looks like a really good cohort class to have.


Edit: Go for psionics next. I like psionics.

[Anthrowhale]

I dunno. Maybe. It's an interesting strategy. I mean, I'm just getting on the, "This maybe doesn't work train," now.

Do you have an argument?

[eggynack]

Do you have an argument?

Yeah, I posted one hereabouts.