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    Default Really evil things to do

    Yeah... what the title says. To be more specific, if it's 100% roleplay-based, I'm not interested. It has to use some spell, item, or otherwise. Also, using them in creative ways is encouraged. Love's Pain is simple - using the spell so the target can see their loved one is less simple. Get the idea?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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    Default Re: Really evil things to do

    In the book of vile darkness I think, you have an option to create evil magic item by paying the cost for them in sacrifices (as in intelligent being sacrifices) instead of XP and gold

    Evil magic items created that way are also more powerful (caster level +1 I think)

    Basically it gives your evil spellcaster a reason to kill people to power his artifacts

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    Default Re: Really evil things to do

    Use Dark craft XP to make a lv 2 scroll of magic missile. Exactly as powerful as a CL1 scroll of magic missile and probably less efficient than using the XP you would have gotten for defeating them normally to create the scroll but it does cause needless suffering first.

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    Default Re: Really evil things to do

    There is always the classic custom Bestow Curse which basically is anything you can imagine that your DM will let you get away with

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    Default Re: Really evil things to do

    Twist everything to justify cruel lawful good behavior. What's more evil than a by the letter genocidal lawful good character?

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    Default Re: Really evil things to do

    I feel like the greatest evil comes from forcing non-evil people to commit atrocities they never would on their own. Not through actual magical compulsion, but through simple blackmail, catch-22s, and clever planning. Take anything 'horrifically evil' you can think of, and add a degree of separation, and suddenly it's much worse.

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    Default Re: Really evil things to do

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    In the book of vile darkness I think, you have an option to create evil magic item by paying the cost for them in sacrifices (as in intelligent being sacrifices) instead of XP and gold

    Evil magic items created that way are also more powerful (caster level +1 I think)

    Basically it gives your evil spellcaster a reason to kill people to power his artifacts
    Very Evil, but also very cliche, tbh. Still, Evil is Evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malroth View Post
    Use Dark craft XP to make a lv 2 scroll of magic missile. Exactly as powerful as a CL1 scroll of magic missile and probably less efficient than using the XP you would have gotten for defeating them normally to create the scroll but it does cause needless suffering first.
    That's... a little more petty than Evil with a capital E, but as above, Evil is Evil I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by flappeercraft View Post
    There is always the classic custom Bestow Curse which basically is anything you can imagine that your DM will let you get away with
    More specific examples would be welcome, but thanks for the idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by yellowrocket View Post
    Twist everything to justify cruel lawful good behavior. What's more evil than a by the letter genocidal lawful good character?
    Uh... I mean actual, "would make a Blackguard with Vile feats lose his lunch" Evil. Plus your example would likely bring an alignment shift fairly quickly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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    Default Re: Really evil things to do

    Quote Originally Posted by Technetium43 View Post
    I feel like the greatest evil comes from forcing non-evil people to commit atrocities they never would on their own. Not through actual magical compulsion, but through simple blackmail, catch-22s, and clever planning. Take anything 'horrifically evil' you can think of, and add a degree of separation, and suddenly it's much worse.
    Oooh, this is actually much better than I expected. Yeah, that's got to be the only thing more vile than actually doing it yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Oooh, this is actually much better than I expected. Yeah, that's got to be the only thing more vile than actually doing it yourself.
    I can riff on this for a bit if you want. While I did mention avoiding magical compulsion in the abstract, there are certain situations where it can have a much greater emotional impact. For example, you could blackmail someone into killing someone for you... or you could dominate their child/lover/most trusted ally, and have them take care of the problem. Then, just leave them alone. End the domination, and just sit back and grab your popcorn. At that point they have to live with the guilt of murdering someone very close to them. There are sort of two methods to the actual act itself: have them do it incredibly sloppily or in broad daylight so they get caught (let's see how well 'but I was dominated I swear!' flies in court, if it even gets to that), or have them do a bang-up job not incriminating themselves, and forge evidence implicating someone ELSE. That way, they either have to watch as someone innocent takes the fall for them without even knowing why, or they'll be overwhelmed by the guilt and turn themselves in. No matter what you've ruined at least a couple lives.

    And, while it might be quite tempting to ruin someone more powerful, this sort of behind the scenes monstrous asshattery works best on just normal, simple commoners. Because that means, even if the big heroes find out about it... chances are they have something more important to do. Do we take care of this difficult to find, extremely careful villain who's exclusively preying on largely irrelevant people, or A GODDAMN DRAGON. Switch your base of operations around every so often to let any sort of heat die down, and you can get a pretty good clip of abominable acts going pretty quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Technetium43 View Post
    I can riff on this for a bit if you want. While I did mention avoiding magical compulsion in the abstract, there are certain situations where it can have a much greater emotional impact. For example, you could blackmail someone into killing someone for you... or you could dominate their child/lover/most trusted ally, and have them take care of the problem. Then, just leave them alone. End the domination, and just sit back and grab your popcorn. At that point they have to live with the guilt of murdering someone very close to them. There are sort of two methods to the actual act itself: have them do it incredibly sloppily or in broad daylight so they get caught (let's see how well 'but I was dominated I swear!' flies in court, if it even gets to that), or have them do a bang-up job not incriminating themselves, and forge evidence implicating someone ELSE. That way, they either have to watch as someone innocent takes the fall for them without even knowing why, or they'll be overwhelmed by the guilt and turn themselves in. No matter what you've ruined at least a couple lives.
    You should have helped WotC write the Book of Vile Darkness.

    And, while it might be quite tempting to ruin someone more powerful, this sort of behind the scenes monstrous asshattery works best on just normal, simple commoners. Because that means, even if the big heroes find out about it... chances are they have something more important to do. Do we take care of this difficult to find, extremely careful villain who's exclusively preying on largely irrelevant people, or A GODDAMN DRAGON. Switch your base of operations around every so often to let any sort of heat die down, and you can get a pretty good clip of abominable acts going pretty quickly.
    Funny, I had a similar idea. Not for a game or anything, just a "hey, this kind of villain would be total cowdung" thing, but yeah. Perhaps great minds think alike.

    Speaking of great minds... Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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    Default Re: Really evil things to do

    Be an artificer, get the Blood Artisan feat. Flood the market with cursed magic items.
    Make cheap cursed items that are double cursed... incense of obsession that also prevents the user from casting arcane spells.

    use mindrape to take over people's lives.
    Last edited by Gildedragon; 2017-04-24 at 12:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    Player: I'll use a classic ploy. "Help! Guards! He's having a seizure!"
    DM: You're the only one in the prison.
    Player: I'm very convincing.
    DM: And there are no guards.
    Player: But there's masonry.
    DM: It's not even animate, let alone sentient.
    Player: That's ok. I'll take the penalty.

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    Default Re: Really evil things to do

    Building on the dominate stuff, I think, were I in such a situation, I'd prefer to dominate someone close to the subject I wanted to torture, force that person to do something horrific, and then force that person to start doing something even more horrific in a situation where only the torment victim could possibly stop them, and that only by killing the dominated victim.

    Or, ooh, even better. Make it possible for them to stop the dominated person without killing them, but they still have to maim or cripple the dominated person to stop them.

    E.g.
    The BBEG feels like screwing with the paladin and dominates the paladin's young son. The son first kills a playmate just as the paladin comes home to witness it, and then moves to kill the paladin's previously restrained daughter. Paladin moves to restrain him, but BBEG has put a freedom of movement effect on the son. Paladin has to make a split second decision how to handle it, and tries to attack the boy in a way that won't harm him, but the son twists into the attack at the last minute so that it cripples him permanently.

    Now the son and paladin both have to live with the guilt of their actions. Maybe if one of them gets particularly depressed the BBEG can even suggest suicide.

    Well, RAW I guess that last bit doesn't work even if they're considering it without the BBEG's help, due to the "obviously harmful" clause, but you get the point.

    You could easily tease this scenario out and make it more complex and deliciously emotional if you wanted, it was just a quick and dirty example. A villain with enough time on his hands could really turn something like that into poetry.
    Last edited by Ellrin; 2017-04-24 at 01:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellrin View Post
    Building on the dominate stuff, I think, were I in such a situation, I'd prefer to dominate someone close to the subject I wanted to torture, force that person to do something horrific, and then force that person to start doing something even more horrific in a situation where only the torment victim could possibly stop them, and that only by killing the dominated victim.

    Or, ooh, even better. Make it possible for them to stop the dominated person without killing them, but they still have to maim or cripple the dominated person to stop them.

    E.g.
    The BBEG feels like screwing with the paladin and dominates the paladin's young son. The son first kills a playmate just as the paladin comes home to witness it, and then moves to kill the paladin's previously restrained daughter. Paladin moves to restrain him, but BBEG has put a freedom of movement effect on the son. Paladin has to make a split second decision how to handle it, and tries to attack the boy in a way that won't harm him, but the son twists into the attack at the last minute so that it cripples him permanently.

    Now the son and paladin both have to live with the guilt of their actions. Maybe if one of them gets particularly depressed the BBEG can even suggest suicide.

    Well, RAW I guess that last bit doesn't work even if they're considering it without the BBEG's help, due to the "obviously harmful" clause, but you get the point.

    You could easily tease this scenario out and make it more complex and deliciously emotional if you wanted, it was just a quick and dirty example. A villain with enough time on his hands could really turn something like that into poetry.
    I hope you haven't ever done that to one of your players....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Technetium43 View Post
    (let's see how well 'but I was dominated I swear!' flies in court, if it even gets to that)
    In D&D-land? Probably pretty well, given the number of evil spirits, mages, and whatnot out there that can mess with minds.

    I mean, it still is pretty evil though, especially if you go with the "frame a third party" option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellrin View Post
    Paladin has to make a split second decision how to handle it, and tries to attack the boy in a way that won't harm him, but the son twists into the attack at the last minute so that it cripples him permanently.
    Thiiis part is a bit of stretch. It's not impossible, but it seems pretty difficult to twist in such a way that it turns a deliberately softened punch into a permanently crippling blow.

    Also not technically possible in the rules, but that would mostly matter if a PC is involved, which I agree with danielxcutter - I hope not!
    Last edited by icefractal; 2017-04-24 at 02:42 AM.

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    Use magically aged cursed 4th level dragonwrought kobold Experts as mules/slaves. Plus quadrupedal if you have access to Advanced Bestiary, but that's just to crank up their maximum load even more so since it's unnecessary and 3rd party let's leave it out for now.

    Set up: take a 1st level dragonwrought kobold expert and bestow a series of family curses on it and all its descendants so that they're born venerable and their Int is always 1. Train it until it reaches 4th level, hence becoming Colossal. At any point, start breeding it and its offsprings. Keep the dragonwrought kobolds, discard the others (dragonwrought eggs can be recognized right away, so you can smash extra eggs right away!).

    Benefits: a plethora of Colossal slaves with animal-like intelligence that can be easily maneuvered and aren't nearly as threathening as any other Colossal creature should they try to flee and/or attack someone.

    List of bad stuff you need to do to achieve this:
    1) Enslave an entire lineage of sentient creatures.
    2) Have said creatures mate and produce offsprings for your own personal gain.
    3) Take advantage of a selected minority of members of the aforementioned lineage.
    4) Kill the rest right after they're born or as soon as the egg they're in is laid.
    5) Deprive the few survivors of their youth and anything in-between by having them be born in bodies of 200+ years old kobolds.
    6) Strip them of almost every ounce of reason by forcibly setting their Intelligence score to 1.
    7) Have them undergo the sudden change that is growing from Small size to Colossal without them having a clue of what's happening (see 6).
    8) Ignore that you could move your goods more efficiently using teleportation spells of similar level of the spells used to do all the above, without experimenting on any other creature.
    Bonus step if you use Advanced Bestiary) Breed an entire lineage of sentient creatures against their will with the intent of producing an entirely new template to maximise the efficiency of your evil scheme.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    In D&D-land? Probably pretty well, given the number of evil spirits, mages, and whatnot out there that can mess with minds.

    I mean, it still is pretty evil though, especially if you go with the "frame a third party" option.

    Thiiis part is a bit of stretch. It's not impossible, but it seems pretty difficult to twist in such a way that it turns a deliberately softened punch into a permanently crippling blow.

    Also not technically possible in the rules, but that would mostly matter if a PC is involved, which I agree with danielxcutter - I hope not!
    Like I said, it was a deliberately simplified example. If I were actually going to set something like this up, I'd have everything in a much more controlled environment in order to get more of a guarantee of the desired outcome.

    (And no, this hasn't happened to any PCs I know.)
    Last edited by Ellrin; 2017-04-24 at 03:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Pine View Post
    Use magically aged cursed 4th level dragonwrought kobold Experts as mules/slaves. Plus quadrupedal if you have access to Advanced Bestiary, but that's just to crank up their maximum load even more so since it's unnecessary and 3rd party let's leave it out for now.

    Set up: take a 1st level dragonwrought kobold expert and bestow a series of family curses on it and all its descendants so that they're born venerable and their Int is always 1. Train it until it reaches 4th level, hence becoming Colossal. At any point, start breeding it and its offsprings. Keep the dragonwrought kobolds, discard the others (dragonwrought eggs can be recognized right away, so you can smash extra eggs right away!).

    Benefits: a plethora of Colossal slaves with animal-like intelligence that can be easily maneuvered and aren't nearly as threathening as any other Colossal creature should they try to flee and/or attack someone.

    List of bad stuff you need to do to achieve this:
    1) Enslave an entire lineage of sentient creatures.
    2) Have said creatures mate and produce offsprings for your own personal gain.
    3) Take advantage of a selected minority of members of the aforementioned lineage.
    4) Kill the rest right after they're born or as soon as the egg they're in is laid.
    5) Deprive the few survivors of their youth and anything in-between by having them be born in bodies of 200+ years old kobolds.
    6) Strip them of almost every ounce of reason by forcibly setting their Intelligence score to 1.
    7) Have them undergo the sudden change that is growing from Small size to Colossal without them having a clue of what's happening (see 6).
    8) Ignore that you could move your goods more efficiently using teleportation spells of similar level of the spells used to do all the above, without experimenting on any other creature.
    Bonus step if you use Advanced Bestiary) Breed an entire lineage of sentient creatures against their will with the intent of producing an entirely new template to maximise the efficiency of your evil scheme.
    Cheesy as a fondue, check. Evil as hell, double check.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellrin View Post
    Like I said, it was a deliberately simplified example. If I were actually going to set something like this up, I'd have everything in a much more controlled environment in order to get more of a guarantee of the desired outcome.

    (And no, this hasn't happened to any PCs I know.)
    I dunno, it looks oddly specific to me... Just kidding, but I hope no one goes through this kind of cowdung.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Speaking of great minds... Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel.
    Always entertaining to be summoned by a Paladin.

    Alright, let's have a look at this one...

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Yeah... what the title says. To be more specific, if it's 100% roleplay-based, I'm not interested. It has to use some spell, item, or otherwise. Also, using them in creative ways is encouraged. Love's Pain is simple - using the spell so the target can see their loved one is less simple. Get the idea?
    Bah. Mechanics are just bags of numbers. You want mechanics, you get that stupid suit of armor that lets you take hostages and siphon off their life when you're attacked. Oh, boo hoo, if we fight the villain we'll hurt the hostages, and maybe some of them are children perhaps. Yawn. The mechanics are boring.

    The real fun is the roleplay-based stuff. It's where you take something like Body of the Sun, a fairly straightforward spell that causes the caster to radiate Fire damage, and turn it into Body of the Fun, a composite metamagicked arrangement that causes the victim to constantly explode with Sonic damage, demolishing everything around him and he has no idea why.

    That is how you torment someone. That is Evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Technetium43 View Post
    I feel like the greatest evil comes from forcing non-evil people to commit atrocities they never would on their own. Not through actual magical compulsion, but through simple blackmail, catch-22s, and clever planning. Take anything 'horrifically evil' you can think of, and add a degree of separation, and suddenly it's much worse.
    I'll take it in the opposite direction. The greatest Evil is committed when you convince Good to allow it. It's like the saying, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of Me is for Good men to do nothing." (I may be paraphrasing.)

    Thus, it's not tricking Good people into committing acts of Evil - as we've already discussed, that's just turning them to Evil. No, it's convincing Good people that it would be completely acceptable for you to commit atrocities, and then doing so right in front of them. It's having them not only stand by and watch your crimes, but having them nod approvingly.

    That is how you get away with it. That is how you corrupt Good. That is Evil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Always entertaining to be summoned by a Paladin.

    Alright, let's have a look at this one...
    I appreciate the visit.

    Bah. Mechanics are just bags of numbers. You want mechanics, you get that stupid suit of armor that lets you take hostages and siphon off their life when you're attacked. Oh, boo hoo, if we fight the villain we'll hurt the hostages, and maybe some of them are children perhaps. Yawn. The mechanics are boring.

    The real fun is the roleplay-based stuff. It's where you take something like Body of the Sun, a fairly straightforward spell that causes the caster to radiate Fire damage, and turn it into Body of the Fun, a composite metamagicked arrangement that causes the victim to constantly explode with Sonic damage, demolishing everything around him and he has no idea why.

    That is how you torment someone. That is Evil.
    Yup, that's exactly on the lines of what I'm looking for. Combining normally harmless(or at least not very harmless) spells into devastating effects not even found in the BoVD. Perfect.

    I'll take it in the opposite direction. The greatest Evil is committed when you convince Good to allow it. It's like the saying, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of Me is for Good men to do nothing." (I may be paraphrasing.)

    Thus, it's not tricking Good people into committing acts of Evil - as we've already discussed, that's just turning them to Evil. No, it's convincing Good people that it would be completely acceptable for you to commit atrocities, and then doing so right in front of them. It's having them not only stand by and watch your crimes, but having them nod approvingly.

    That is how you get away with it. That is how you corrupt Good. That is Evil.
    Ooooooooh, noteworthy. Easier said than done, but then what isn't?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Technetium43 View Post
    I feel like the greatest evil comes from forcing non-evil people to commit atrocities they never would on their own. Not through actual magical compulsion, but through simple blackmail, catch-22s, and clever planning. Take anything 'horrifically evil' you can think of, and add a degree of separation, and suddenly it's much worse.
    As someone who finds compulsions to be bull****, I actually like this idea.

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    Default Re: Really evil things to do

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Ooooooooh, noteworthy. Easier said than done, but then what isn't?
    Not really, no. Anything is easy with preparation, skill, and knowledge. Knowledge is power. Evil is the fun we have with said power.

    Lets take an act that is fairly accepted as bad or evil: torture. Now, anyone can torture someone else when they are tied up and in a dungeon. That's too damn easy, and not nearly as fun (although far more intimate, but that isn't our goal here). No, what we want to do is take someone, a pariah of some sort, and drag them into the middle of the street and torture them there. Why? Multiple reasons, of course. But I'm going to break this down a bit into what all will mesh together into a seed of decent.

    Step 0.1: Pick a target. Make sure that you know exactly who you are about to torture. Preferably someone who is meddling, and needs to be made an example of anyway. But hey, this step can be easy as "some random Joe Schmoe off the street." It will take a little less planning that way, but entirely doable.

    Step 0.2: Have help. This is, as far as I am concerned, the most important element. You will need a handful of bodies, to help you strong arm the guy, to help drag him through the streets, but most importantly, to help incite a mob mentality. Do you know mob mentality? It is generally the reason why I hate people. A person is fine, sure, but putting them in forum and allowing one to speak for many because they are sheep? Well... lets at the very least see that such an incident is manipulable.

    Step 0.3-0.9: Planning. Like before, this can vary, and be about as much or as little as you want it to be. Get your setup on! Install a wrack, a noose, whatever. Do it ahead of time! Make people wonder what the hell is going on. Set up a course that will be dragging this SOB through the most populated areas during the busiest hours. Make sure the entire city knows something is going on. As they say, the world is a stage, so make it a real good show.

    (finally) Step 1: Let the torture begin with a bit of exposition. You've already paraded the target around the city, now tell the people why you did it. Explain why you hate this dude, and why he is about to be tortured to death (or worse). Sew that seed that makes people think torture is okay.

    Step 2: Remember those guys I said you needed? Sure you had a few that were the muscle and made things look official. You needed a few more, but less officially. Nothing says public torture being a fun group activity like handing off a knife and letting people come up and join. But people are "innately good" and some other bullcrap like that. So you have other hirelings that are hidden in the crowd, waiting for the cue to grab a blade and start tearing away. Now this sets a few examples, but the primary ones are that a) its okay to do this and b) proper ways to do this, so the person isn't just outright killed immediately. This is a show, after all, and we want more than just 1 act!

    After you have a few of your own guys come up, mob mentality should have already kicked in. Rocks or rotten fruit should be flying, people screaming slurs and hisses, ya know, cliche things. But that's okay, because a cliche is well known, and people will act according to it. Because like I said, people in a group are sheep, and after being herd in the right direction, they can do just about anything.



    ... Or, ya know. Just shoot the guy in the middle of the street. Tons easier, far quicker, but where is the fun in that?
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    Default Re: Really evil things to do

    Even more evil, go to the mayor of town along with many other important figures and cast Bestow Curse on them, then use one of the printed out extra curses on Dragon Magazine 345 IIRC and choose the one that makes everyone except the caster forget him even existing. Watch the chaos unfold and use it to start a regime and become the new lord of the area and do as you think seems fit. Or you can always start the wightapocalypse instead and control the first wight making you control basically all the wights.

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    Default Re: Really evil things to do

    Quote Originally Posted by flappeercraft View Post
    Even more evil, go to the mayor of town along with many other important figures and cast Bestow Curse on them, then use one of the printed out extra curses on Dragon Magazine 345 IIRC and choose the one that makes everyone except the caster forget him even existing. Watch the chaos unfold and use it to start a regime and become the new lord of the area and do as you think seems fit. Or you can always start the wightapocalypse instead and control the first wight making you control basically all the wights.
    We can call that curse bit Step 0.01.

    Not a fan of wightapocalypse. Too cliche, even for me. I also have a general hatred for anything zombie associated, for a very similar reason, and because I can't stand to hear Rick yell for his son Coarol one more time.
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    Default Re: Really evil things to do

    Quote Originally Posted by Technetium43 View Post
    There are sort of two methods to the actual act itself: have them do it incredibly sloppily or in broad daylight so they get caught (let's see how well 'but I was dominated I swear!' flies in court, if it even gets to that), or have them do a bang-up job not incriminating themselves, and forge evidence implicating someone ELSE.
    I would say that openly committing murder in broad daylight would probably count as "obviously self-destructive."

    As for it flying in court - remember that detecting domination is fairly easy, as is determining that the victim is not lying.

    Getting them to commit a more secretive killing, or while disguised, should work though (additional saving throw aside, for most people.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Buufreak View Post
    Not a fan of wightapocalypse. Too cliche, even for me. I also have a general hatred for anything zombie associated, for a very similar reason, and because I can't stand to hear Rick yell for his son Coarol one more time.
    Well, maybe he should STAY IN THE HOUSE
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Really evil things to do

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellrin View Post
    Now the son and paladin both have to live with the guilt of their actions. Maybe if one of them gets particularly depressed the BBEG can even suggest suicide.

    Well, RAW I guess that last bit doesn't work even if they're considering it without the BBEG's help, due to the "obviously harmful" clause, but you get the point.
    I'd use, instead, a suggestion on the son that he needs to talk his father out of suicide. Maybe with an added bestow curse to make him never able to spit out exactly what he means in emotional situations.


    Honestly, we see just how evil that curse could be in a lot of TV and movie dramas. I'm being somewhat jocular here, but think about the harm that poor communication and inability to just tell somebody the plain facts leads to in fiction! Imagine that as an honest to goodness curse, so even when they realize the misunderstanding, they can't clear it up.



    Now, on the subject of domination, I know Red Fel pooh-pooh'd the notion of the Armor of the Emperor because, woe is us, attacking the BBEG hurts these pathetic little urchins, but there IS something to be said for malignant (ab)use of heroic types' soft spot for the weak. I believe their preferred term for "weak" is "innocent," but let's be honest; it's less their innocence and more their inability to help themselves that stirs the heroes to self-righteous indignation.

    For this, I bring up a line of spells I have brought up before, but bears mentioning here: Those enabled by the feat Mother Cyst.

    This gives you 10 spells, one of each level except for 2nd, which gets two.

    The "entry" spell is the 2nd level one, necrotic cyst, which implants a mildly painful but not too overtly harmless sac of undead flesh within a victim. This sac renders the victim vulnerable to the rest of the line.

    My favorite use of these spells is to infect large swaths of a population whose environs you wish to manipulate, control, or secure. The other 2nd level spell is necrotic scrying, which works like scrying but requires no expensive foci nor components, but can only scry on people hosting necrotic cysts. You now have an easy means of keeping an eye on people at your leisure, monitoring your (eventual) minions remotely.

    The next spell is the 7th level one: necrotic tumor. At 4th level is necrotic domination, which is nice, but necrotic tumor is more insidious. A necrotic-cyst-bearing victim who succeeds on his save is influenced as if he failed as save vs. suggestion. If he fails, he becomes permanently enslaved to you, and can never again disobey you in any way.

    Send them about to do your bidding, controlling key positions in any power structure you like. Keep some around as minions and bodyguards; sure, the whole Armor of the Emperor thing is passť, but if you can toss it in there, why not?

    But the real reason to keep these "bodyguards" is not because you really expect the heroes to be daunted. They'll find some "third option" or they'll man up and kill the victims, blaming you for putting the bodies they're destroying there to fuel their self-righteous ire. No, the real reason is the 6th level spell necrotic eruption. Target a bearer of a necrotic cyst. They take 1d6/CL damage, capped at 15d6, Fortitude save for half. You don't really care about that; you're going to use this on somebody who'll die from even a successful save. (Kids are marvelous for this.) Any victim who dies of this spell explodes in a fireball-like radius, inflicting CL d6 (max 15), reflex save for half, damage on everybody in that radius. And anybody who takes damage must make a fortitude save (at the higher level DC, I might add, of a 6th level spell) or also be afflicted with a necrotic cyst. Thus infecting those heroes with just what you need to start using this line on them.

    Now, of course, the important thing with any proper evil is presentation: These won't be bodyguards charging the heroes to try to bring them (ineffectually) down. No, no.

    These will be people you've ordered to beg the heroes to help them escape. Again, small children and comely maidens work well for this. They cling to the heroes, they beg them for protection. They beg them to get them out. And, when they're in place, when the heroes are about to stand between your obvious threats and your obvious victims, they don't even have to pull a knife. You just cast necrotic eruption and they EXPLODE. The heroes won't see it coming, that first time.

    And after that, they'll have to ask themselves not just if they CAN help anybody they find...but if trying to will get THEM exploded.



    Now, a spell that seems obvious for its evil uses that works well with this is magic jar. You're not going to do anything particularly special or fancy with this, but make sure to encounter the party while using it. You want to be possessing a minion you'll use as a patsy, just in case they get lucky and kill it. Pick out their big, strong, low-will-save allies, and be ready to hop into them when convenient. Fighting a body-hopping enemy that can use their biggest pool of hp against them is of immense demoralizing value, almost as powerful as watching those they hoped to rescue be turned into suicide bombs they're powerless to protect. Combine the two, and most will be so horrified that they break. Those who don't are still prone now to foolish and self-defeating bouts of angry action. Take advantage of this. If they're infected with necrotic cysts, remember that a successful save against necrotic tumor lets you implant a suggestion.





    Additionally, lower-level potential evil. Those who follow necromancy in 3.5 are all but certainly aware of a delightful form of undead known as a Slaymate. These Small undead arise from the corpses of children who died due to a betrayal by a caregiver. They also have a Pale Aura (Su) ability which makes necromancy spells prepared within it get metamagic lowered by a level. Gather three for free Chain Spell metamagic; I'm fond of putting it on command undead.

    The trouble is, there's no spell to make them. One could argue for create undead, but it's definitely a negotiation with the DM, and frankly, who wants to wait that long? You can use Knowledge(religion) and Gather Information (if you happen to have it and a Charisma score) to try to find one or more. And command undead works quite well, as long as you'll do at least a minimal pretense of taking the little tykes in. Between magic and manipulating their feelings of abandonment to build a trust and dependence on your approval, you can obtain one or more of these handy metamagic-reducing minions.

    Though that still relies on finding naturally-occurring ones through hard work and investigation. You obviously would prefer to make them.

    Start a minor philanthropic effort to fund the burial of dispossessed or unidentified orphans, and make sure the graveyard you use is unhallowed ground. A hidden altar to a death god with a permanent desecration effect is ideal, but don't get too hung up on it if you can't afford it; we're looking at low level efforts here. Then, in another guise or through back channels, offer poor families funds if they'll just...abandon a small child somewhere. It's important these desperate families know they're probably leaving their child to a tragic fate - the kids must be betrayed by their guardian. Alternatively, you could try to become their guardian, and commit the betrayal, yourself, but that makes the manipulation far more reliant on never slipping on a command undead lest they turn on you for your crime. You prefer to be their "savior."

    You will then arrange for the corpses of those kids who have died of exposure (or worse) to be picked up by your philanthropic effort and buried in your accursed cemetery. At least SOME will spontaneously arise, eventually, as Slaymates.




    Finally, in a non-necromantic vein, a straightforward combination of True Mind Switch and being a Thrallherd can guarantee you immortality: Have competitions and programs in your Believers to make them take exquisite care of themselves and maximize their strength, stamina, health, and (because of course a demigod on earth is vain) beauty, and compete to be your favored heir. When your current body is too old, fat, or just plain wasted by the decadent life you lead, have an official ceremony to pass your mantle to your heir, and take his body. As your believer, he'll LET you have it. Whether you generously let him live out the rest of your old body's life, or shove him into a vat of Quintessence to keep him from dying until you switch bodies again (after disposing of the husk with your last donor in it that was in that vat before him), is up to you.

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    Default Re: Really evil things to do

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Thus, it's not tricking Good people into committing acts of Evil - as we've already discussed, that's just turning them to Evil. No, it's convincing Good people that it would be completely acceptable for you to commit atrocities, and then doing so right in front of them. It's having them not only stand by and watch your crimes, but having them nod approvingly.

    That is how you get away with it. That is how you corrupt Good. That is Evil.
    It's not as difficult achieve do as one might suppose.

    "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" can achieve this. When players are aligned against major evil, they might have to align with other (less, or differently) evil forces to stop the Big Bad.

    Good players having to cozy up to evil characters, because they can help to oppose the Big Bad, is tearing my group, and my character and that of one other group member, right now.

    In our last game, for example, we had to return a member of an evil group back to her evil succubus former mistress, for punishment, in order to get the evil succubus's help opposing a super-powerful demon.

    So the two good characters in our group found themselves conflicted in helping to capture this (potentially redeemed) wayward former servant and return her to be flayed to pieces.

    Not good. Not at all. But ostensibly done in the service of resisting a greater evil.

    My good druid is going to have to atone for a lot once the mission is completed.
    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    This. This sooooo much. I wasn't expecting *two* thread wins from you.
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    Default Re: Really evil things to do

    Quote Originally Posted by Buufreak View Post
    -snip-


    Oookaaay, that's scary. I hope this doesn't stem from experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I'd use, instead, a suggestion on the son that he needs to talk his father out of suicide. Maybe with an added bestow curse to make him never able to spit out exactly what he means in emotional situations.


    Honestly, we see just how evil that curse could be in a lot of TV and movie dramas. I'm being somewhat jocular here, but think about the harm that poor communication and inability to just tell somebody the plain facts leads to in fiction! Imagine that as an honest to goodness curse, so even when they realize the misunderstanding, they can't clear it up.
    Forbidden Speech(a Corrupt spell) may help with that. It prevents the target from speaking about a specific topic, so use it twice to prevent the son from saying that he's under Forbidden Speech.

    -long, evil plan-
    Yikes, that's super nasty. Hope your players never went through that.

    Now, a spell that seems obvious for its evil uses that works well with this is magic jar. You're not going to do anything particularly special or fancy with this, but make sure to encounter the party while using it. You want to be possessing a minion you'll use as a patsy, just in case they get lucky and kill it. Pick out their big, strong, low-will-save allies, and be ready to hop into them when convenient. Fighting a body-hopping enemy that can use their biggest pool of hp against them is of immense demoralizing value, almost as powerful as watching those they hoped to rescue be turned into suicide bombs they're powerless to protect. Combine the two, and most will be so horrified that they break. Those who don't are still prone now to foolish and self-defeating bouts of angry action. Take advantage of this. If they're infected with necrotic cysts, remember that a successful save against necrotic tumor lets you implant a suggestion.
    ...Just how much do your players have to tick you off to do both of these? Oh my.



    Additionally, lower-level potential evil. Those who follow necromancy in 3.5 are all but certainly aware of a delightful form of undead known as a Slaymate. These Small undead arise from the corpses of children who died due to a betrayal by a caregiver. They also have a Pale Aura (Su) ability which makes necromancy spells prepared within it get metamagic lowered by a level. Gather three for free Chain Spell metamagic; I'm fond of putting it on command undead.

    The trouble is, there's no spell to make them. One could argue for create undead, but it's definitely a negotiation with the DM, and frankly, who wants to wait that long? You can use Knowledge(religion) and Gather Information (if you happen to have it and a Charisma score) to try to find one or more. And command undead works quite well, as long as you'll do at least a minimal pretense of taking the little tykes in. Between magic and manipulating their feelings of abandonment to build a trust and dependence on your approval, you can obtain one or more of these handy metamagic-reducing minions.

    Though that still relies on finding naturally-occurring ones through hard work and investigation. You obviously would prefer to make them.

    Start a minor philanthropic effort to fund the burial of dispossessed or unidentified orphans, and make sure the graveyard you use is unhallowed ground. A hidden altar to a death god with a permanent desecration effect is ideal, but don't get too hung up on it if you can't afford it; we're looking at low level efforts here. Then, in another guise or through back channels, offer poor families funds if they'll just...abandon a small child somewhere. It's important these desperate families know they're probably leaving their child to a tragic fate - the kids must be betrayed by their guardian. Alternatively, you could try to become their guardian, and commit the betrayal, yourself, but that makes the manipulation far more reliant on never slipping on a command undead lest they turn on you for your crime. You prefer to be their "savior."

    You will then arrange for the corpses of those kids who have died of exposure (or worse) to be picked up by your philanthropic effort and buried in your accursed cemetery. At least SOME will spontaneously arise, eventually, as Slaymates.
    Slightly less flashy, but hey, low level. Useful.

    Finally, in a non-necromantic vein, a straightforward combination of True Mind Switch and being a Thrallherd can guarantee you immortality: Have competitions and programs in your Believers to make them take exquisite care of themselves and maximize their strength, stamina, health, and (because of course a demigod on earth is vain) beauty, and compete to be your favored heir. When your current body is too old, fat, or just plain wasted by the decadent life you lead, have an official ceremony to pass your mantle to your heir, and take his body. As your believer, he'll LET you have it. Whether you generously let him live out the rest of your old body's life, or shove him into a vat of Quintessence to keep him from dying until you switch bodies again (after disposing of the husk with your last donor in it that was in that vat before him), is up to you.

    Hrm... cliche, but excellent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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    Default Re: Really evil things to do

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post


    Oookaaay, that's scary. I hope this doesn't stem from experience.
    I mean, how is this different from the Salem Witch Trials? How is it different from The Crusades? The Spanish Inquisition? Our own history is filled with stories exactly like this, only carried out on grander scales. I'm trying to make a pariah and set an example. They had bigger dreams. The main difference is scale, but its all the same. And when you've been around for ~975 years, you see plenty of silly humans doing silly human things.
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    Default Re: Really evil things to do

    Quote Originally Posted by Buufreak View Post
    I mean, how is this different from the Salem Witch Trials? How is it different from The Crusades? The Spanish Inquisition? Our own history is filled with stories exactly like this, only carried out on grander scales. I'm trying to make a pariah and set an example. They had bigger dreams. The main difference is scale, but its all the same. And when you've been around for ~975 years, you see plenty of silly humans doing silly human things.
    I get your point, but I meant personal experience. Either as a player, a DM, or... well...
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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