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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

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    Default Musings on Weapon Speed

    I'm unlikely to bother using this, but a thought occured to me on how to take weapon speed into account, while at the same time making
    fighter and monk more powerful.

    First, you break down weapons into four groups:

    Heavy (two-handed weapons, and one-handed weapons weilded two-handed)
    Standard (One-handed weapons)
    Light (Finessable One-handed weapons and most light weapons)
    Ultra-light (unarmed strikes and exotic light weapons)

    Based on your weapon speed, you gain the ability to make extra attacks on a charge or with a standard action. Note that weapon
    speed doesn't give you extra attacks, just the ability to make them if you have them (from 2WF, BAB, Speed, flurry, or what-have-you).
    In the case of 2WF, you use the speed of the slower weapon.

    Now for the breakdown:

    Heavy Weapons:
    You may make one attack on a charge, or one attack with the attack action.

    Standard:
    You may make one attack on a charge, or two attacks with the attack action.

    Light:
    You may make two attacks on a charge, or two attacks with the attack action.

    Ultralight:
    You may make two attacks on a charge, or three attacks with the attack action.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Shhalahr Windrider's Avatar

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    Thumbs up Re: Musings on Weapon Speed

    I certainly like the idea. But I'd want to playtest it before forming a full opinion.
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    bingo_bob's Avatar

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    Default Re: Musings on Weapon Speed

    I think that this givs more of a boost to rogues, or especially scouts (I presume, I've never really seen the scout.), than it does to fighters. In general, they're using lighter weapons anyways. So while this would benefit the monk, it would still pale in comparison to rogue and scout in damage capabilities, and it actually makes the fighter fall behind slightly, IMHO.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Musings on Weapon Speed

    But isn't it the fighter-types downfall that they are reliant on full attacks? And isn't one of the biggest problems with Monk the fact that it has two good abilities that it can't use at the same time(flurry and high movement rate)?
    Aratos Tell
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    Megiddo
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Troll in the Playground
     
    UglyPanda's Avatar

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    Default Re: Musings on Weapon Speed

    Didn't they do something like that in 2.5? I think lighter weapons struck first or something like that. There needs to be some tweaking and restrictions with this idea. Power attack would make short swords much more powerful than their two-handed brethren, and quite sickening considering that light weapons can be held two-handed. Also, how are BAB and full-round actions taken into account with this? The weakness of the fighter is the lack of versatility and exclusive class features, not lack of power. It is a problem with the monk, however.

    Edit:
    Leap attack and shock trooper can only be done during a charge. These two feats more than make up for a damage-dealing fighter not being able to full attack during a turn.
    Last edited by UglyPanda; 2007-07-31 at 10:30 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Shhalahr Windrider's Avatar

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    Question Re: Musings on Weapon Speed

    Quote Originally Posted by Skjaldbakka View Post
    But isn't it the fighter-types downfall that they are reliant on full attacks?
    Yeah. But then, this doesn't help them anyway, since they tend to use heavier weapons. It gives sword-and-board fighters a little boost and does nothing for the two-handed power attackers.

    And isn't one of the biggest problems with Monk the fact that it has two good abilities that it can't use at the same time(flurry and high movement rate)?
    Yeah. It actually does help out monks a bit. Though it does keep them using unarmed strikes over monk weapons.

    BTW—how does this interact with two-weapon fighting? Say I have a fellow with a Longsword in one hand and a Short Sword in another. What're his charge and standard attack actions?
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Musings on Weapon Speed

    I was under the impression that light weapons gain no benefit from Power Attack or from being wielded Two-Handed.\


    Ninja'd

    Responses to above:

    I don't think 2-H power attackers need any help with all the crazy feats you can take to augment you PA returns.

    Most of the light exotic weapons are also special monk weapons

    Longsword/Shortsword 2WF uses the slower speed, so one attack on a charge, one with each on a move-and-attack. Although if you have iteratives, you could charge and make two iteratives with the shortsword.
    Last edited by Skjaldbakka; 2007-07-31 at 10:35 PM.
    Aratos Tell
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    Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants

    Megiddo
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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Musings on Weapon Speed

    I don't like the "ultra-light" category. You can attack with a dagger as fast as you can attack with a hand. A short-sword or short spear can be used even faster. I personally think that this would work better:

    Heavy: Two Handed Weapons
    Standard: One Handed Weapons (even ones used two-handed)
    Light: Finessable Weapons and Light Weapons (this also includes double weapons such as the quarterstaff)

    Then make a feat that increases the spead category of a single weapon (perhaps make this replace weapon focus?). This could give you your ultra-light weapons. Monks would get this for free with their unarmed strikes. I don't think that exotic light weapons should be treated differently even in your system, however, since a kurki is actually heavier than a dagger and cannot be used as fast.
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  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Default Re: Musings on Weapon Speed

    I meant your definition of light. Short swords and rapiers can be used for power attack. Any weapon that isn't too big can be held in two hands.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Shhalahr Windrider's Avatar

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    Default Re: Musings on Weapon Speed

    Quote Originally Posted by UglyPanda View Post
    I meant your definition of light. Short swords and rapiers can be used for power attack.
    No. Short swords are light weapons in the usual D&D sense of Light Weapon. They gain no benefit from being held in two hands nor can they be used with Power Attack.
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  11. - Top - End - #11
    Troll in the Playground
     
    UglyPanda's Avatar

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    Default Re: Musings on Weapon Speed

    So it is, my memory must be screwing up again. Rapiers are finessable and would qualify for his definition of light, though.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Musings on Weapon Speed

    In 2e they had weapon speed: each weapon had a value that added to you initiative. I think that is the best weapon speed application.
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  13. - Top - End - #13
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Musings on Weapon Speed

    You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon .

    A shortsword is a light weapon. I don't see how it attacks faster than an unarmed strike.

    A kukri is a light martial, not an exotic weapon.

    I can see how a dagger should be as fast as an unarmed strike, but didn't want to make the effort of "here is a list of specific weapons that count as a different weapon speed than normal for their weapon category".


    EDIT

    In 2e they had weapon speed: each weapon had a value that added to you initiative. I think that is the best weapon speed application.
    This breaks down alot. I have a shortsword that gives me +X modifier to initiative. Initiative is rolled before I declare my action. Therefore my shortsword makes my react faster to Quickdraw my Greataxe and charge? Or cast a spell? Or run away?
    Last edited by Skjaldbakka; 2007-07-31 at 10:45 PM.
    Aratos Tell
    HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
    Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
    Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants

    Megiddo
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  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Shhalahr Windrider's Avatar

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    Default Re: Musings on Weapon Speed

    Quote Originally Posted by Magi_Ring_O View Post
    In 2e they had weapon speed: each weapon had a value that added to you initiative. I think that is the best weapon speed application.
    In 2e's round-by-round and non-turn-based initiative, sure. Doesn't work in the 3e initiative system since you use the same initiative value the entire fight and don't have to decide on a particular course of action until your turn actually comes up.
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  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Musings on Weapon Speed

    Thought:
    Get rid of the ultralight category, and then have mithral weapons (and other materials that make the weapon weigh half) drop weapons down one category. (thus mithral light weapons become ultralight, and keep the monk's unarmed strike being ultralight)
    Aratos Tell
    HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
    Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
    Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants

    Megiddo
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    Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2

  16. - Top - End - #16
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    Default Re: Musings on Weapon Speed

    AD&D had the whole "Weapon Speed affects Initiative" option. Probably not quite so compatible with 3.x, in the sense that 3.x doesn't have you roll Initiative every round(sucks, IMO. Sure, you have fewer die rolls, but in 3.x, you either win Initiative or you don't, and there's no such thing as "taking you down at the same time you take me down", barring a few special Feats/options. If Initiative were rolled every round, Celerity et al would be a lot less powerful, since you'd be blowing one of your slots and hoping your 1 round wins. Then again, Batman always comes prepared. And here I thought Supes was the friggin' Boyscout). Part of the reason it would be incompatible is that every + on the weapon made it move 1 step quicker(to a limit of +/-0 for final weapon speed modifier, or something like that). This would swing the balance away from TWF again, in that it costs more to raise 1 weapon multiple steps, vs 2 weapons for fewer steps each. A Scythe swinging at the speed of thought!
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Musings on Weapon Speed

    getting rid of weapon speed was a good move though. cause while it is true that you would be quicker with a short sword than a longsword the difference was practically negligible and then the longsword user had additional reach to make up for it.
    also short sword would be quicker primarily because it was a thrusting weapon not a slashing weapon, difference between a straight ounch and a haymaker.
    i feel that this move would just end up with loads of people ambidexing daggers for loads of fast attacks with ridiculous strength.
    rather like 2e and darts with high strength ended up more damaging than a long bow, which is obviously ludicrous
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    Default Re: Musings on Weapon Speed

    I like using Weapon speeds to decide Initiative Ties. Also, changing weapons to change your Initiative for the next round could work, it would be similar to the effects of the Delay or Readied Action.
    Last edited by Matthew; 2007-08-01 at 11:40 AM.
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