Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[Cheesegear]

Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground

I'm new to the hobby. Which army should I start?
It really depends on what you want to play. And how your meta-game shapes up. Find out what everyone else is playing near you, and play anything not those armies for best results. Otherwise, if you're starting from scratch with no-one really to play with - or, you've got a friend who is also starting from scratch - buy the Dark Vengeance starter box.

What's Dark Vengeance?
Dark Vengeance contains a rulebook and a bunch of dice.

It contains roughly 850 Points worth of Dark Angels. However, it only contains around 500 points worth of Chaos Space Marines. Of course, if you're playing DV as it's meant to be played, you're never using all of the models at once so the points difference doesn't really matter.

However, in practical terms, the Dark Angels are only barely legal and lack enough Scoring models. And, while the CSMs are legal, they're almost 300 points behind and lack anything that packs a decent punch. You will also need the relevant Codecies for your faction as it will dramatically change the way you play the game as opposed to using the reference sheets that come with DV.

How much does it cost?
The Dark Vengeance box, one Codex, one other box of your choosing, and a Starter Paint Set costs you about the same as a Playstation 3 and one game*. In both cases, you'd be good to go for about a month. This author thinks of most boxes as console games, and Flyers and Land Raiders are the AAA-Title Collector's Edition game. The difference being that in this hobby you can use all your 'games' at the same time, and continuously.

Is WH40K expensive? Yes. I suppose it is. We all know it is. But, practically speaking, it's no more expensive than any other hobby.

*Priced in $AU where everything is more expensive - although the ratios should be the same.

Okay, I've got everything. What next?
Play some games. Playing some actual games, is a far, far better learning experience than anything you could glean from the internet. Although we really would appreciate some stories and how you're finding your army.
Find out what works for you, find out what doesn't (just because the internet likes something, doesn't mean you will too). You, more than anyone know who your opponents are and what they're putting on the table. You are in the best position to find out what you need to bring to the table.

However, if you're still stuck. Just ask.

How many points do I need? What size board do I need?
There are ways that you can play 200, 400 and 500 point games using altered rules. But, if you want to play the game as-is, the recommended minimum is 750.

The game 'balances out' at 1500. Most games should be played at this level since pretty much all armies get a fair shake.

However, in other meta-games, find out what the local tournament standard is. Most people in your area should be playing at that points level. While you're at it, here's How to write an army list.

As for board size; a 4x4' table can accommodate up to 1250 with reasonable room left for movement. But, after that you should probably look at finding a 6x4' area. The floor is never a bad start.

I did what you said and I still lost. What gives?
First, this game is all about dice. Dice are random (most of the time anyway), sometimes you just get bad rolls all game and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's best to accept it, otherwise you're not going to have a very fun time.

Sometimes your opponent can make a minor change in his list - like changing from Plasma Cannons to Lascannons. That can totally alter the flow of the game and what happens when they next play you.

Sometimes the terrain placement is just bad (or the terrain itself is bad) and right from Deployment you can find yourself getting shot at and there's nothing you can do about it. Really, this can only stress how important terrain can be to how the game gets played.

And, lastly, maybe you just 'did it wrong'? Maybe you used [X] to shoot [Y] when they should have been shooting [Z]. Maybe you Charged, when the better move could have been moving backwards and Rapid Firing instead? There are all sorts of ways you can be out-played. You didn't just lose because your opponents' Queens are overpowered.

Terrain? You said this hobby was only as expensive as any other.
Yes and no. Most of your 'starting' terrain can be household items. Books. Soda-cans. Small boxes. Whatever.

If you look around the internet, you can also find a few tutorials on how to make some really decent-looking terrain. Made out of what you essentially would have otherwise thrown in the bin.

Only GW Terrain actually costs you any significant money. Making your own should only cost a few dollars tops - and your time and effort.

How much terrain do I need?
Up to 12 pieces is the official word. However, that can get crowded pretty fast if you've got big pieces.

A better guide is roughly anywhere between 25-33% of the board should be covered by terrain. On a standard 6x4' table, you would want anywhere between 6-8' square of terrain. It seems like a lot. But if you divide that up to 7-12 pieces, it doesn't look like much. Or you could just put a 2x3' block in the centre of the board.

I don't like using Special Characters, and I think Allies are dumb.
Your opponents probably don't. Special Characters are pretty powerful and there's no real reason that you shouldn't be using them if your opponents are. That's not to say that all Special Characters are good - they aren't - and certainly don't get the impression that just because it's a Special Character that you need to use it - you don't. But some of them are still good and they do make certain armies a lot better.

However, Allies, on the other hand. Are often a required part of the game. Some armies just don't have the units required to fend off other units. Does this make the game unfair? Kind of. But, GW doesn't update their entire range at once (it's a big range), and so some units are always going to be better than others. But, allowing Allies is a big step to evening the playing field.

So which Allies should I pick?
Depends on your army, and what units you already have. Ask in the thread.

I can't paint.
Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel.

But, on a more serious note, the only real reason that you need to paint is if you want to participate in tournaments. Well, that and painted models just look better - if you've practised, of course.

Unfortunately, painting is a practical skill, not knowledge. The only person who can get you better at painting is you. Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind.

Is there such a thing as a 'Bad' Codex?
Yes. But, every Codex should be usable between 1000-1500 points. So, no matter what army you pick, you'll be okay within those points limits, or, you should be. If you find that your Codex/Army isn't doing well against certain opponents, and there's nothing you can do; You may need Allies. Most importantly, however, is if you need to know what works and what doesn't, check out one of the linked Guides below, or post your question in the thread!

Helpful Army Building Guides

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Index: Imperium I
Deathwatch
Grey Knights

Building on a Budget
TBD.

30K/Heresy Guides
30K Relics by Vaz
Solar Auxilia by Vaz
Taghmata Omnissiah Army List by Vaz
Questoris Knights by Vaz

30K/Legion Rules
Legion Crusade Army List
Legion Special Rules
The Primarchs

Previous Threads

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* Warhammer 40K Tactics
* II: Tactics for the Tactics God
* III: Hats for the Hat Throne
* IV: The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others.
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight.
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
* VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!"
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!"
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!"
* XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!"
* XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
* XIV: "Pray for 6s!"
* XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
* XV: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
* XVII: "Tyranids Don't Have Friends."
* XVIII: "Fortune Favours the Careless!"
* XIX: Understand the Gravity of the Situation
* XX: Barrage is the new Precision Shot
* XXI: Preferred Enemy (Dice)
* XXII: I C'Tan Has Cheese?
* XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann
* XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff.
* XXV: Friends Are Better Than Wraithknights
* XXVI: Frequently Asked, Frequently Ignored
* XXVII: Tyranids Finally Found a Friend
* XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things
* XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute

Here's a bunch of Battle Reports for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.

[Blackhawk748]

So, i believe we were talking about Numarines being really really tall?

[Brookshw]

So, i believe we were talking about Numarines being really really tall?

I'm wondering how big the terminators & dreads will be, or if they'll do something else entirely.

[lord_khaine]

I'm wondering how big the terminators & dreads will be, or if they'll do something else entirely.

They should not have any dreads. Those are veteran heroes given a living burial in a walking coffin. But being all ned soldiers, the NewMarines dont have any veteral heroes to stuff into a dread.

[Trekkin]

They should not have any dreads. Those are veteran heroes given a living burial in a walking coffin. But being all ned soldiers, the NewMarines dont have any veteral heroes to stuff into a dread.

Which would lead me to expect some kind of Primaris Dreadknight, or some new model of Dreadnought that's a foot taller than normal Dreads and filled with veteran Space Marines from other chapters to serve as advisors.

Similarly, I expect jacked-up Predator tanks covered in gold filigree and gribbly bits. Anything to get Marine players to buy a whole new army one unit at a time.

There's probably a joke somewhere about Primaris Marines being head and pauldrons above normal Marines, but I don't want to go back through all the ad copy to see if GW has made it and I dread the day they do.

[lord_khaine]

Which would lead me to expect some kind of Primaris Dreadknight, or some new model of Dreadnought that's a foot taller than normal Dreads and filled with veteran Space Marines from other chapters to serve as advisors.

Im imagening a Voltron style dreadnough now, made from Space Wolf, Ultramarine, Blood Angel, Ultramarine and Dark Angel dreadnoughs

[Trekkin]

Im imagening a Voltron style dreadnough now, made from Space Wolf, Ultramarine, Blood Angel, Ultramarine and Dark Angel dreadnoughs

Good grief, that would be how to make a Space Marine Titan, wouldn't it? Take a normal Titan and swap the princeps and moderati for Dreadnought sarcophagi.

...which, continuing from the Dreadnoughts-are-grumpy-old-guys meme, would make them the equivalent of Statler and Waldorf with mega-bolters, I guess?

[DataNinja]

Im imagening a Voltron style dreadnough now, made from Space Wolf, Ultramarine, Blood Angel, Ultramarine and Dark Angel dreadnoughs

That's reminding me of this picture someone shared with me on Facebook awhile ago.
(Also, was Ultramarine meant to be twice? I know they insist on top billing and all...)

[Drasius]

They should not have any dreads. Those are veteran heroes given a living burial in a walking coffin. But being all ned soldiers, the NewMarines dont have any veteral heroes to stuff into a dread.

And yet they're getting a primaris dreadnaught since it's already been announced. Since "regular" marines can be upgraded into primaris marines, it's possible that one of the heros got upgraded and then ate a krak missile because someone else was using the shield eternal that day and had to be stuffed into a new dreadnaught. Or because something went wrong during the upgrade process and they had to expand the dreadnaught chassis since the new marines just don't fit, even with their limbs chopped off. Or maybe they just inject a regular box dread with their captain imperium syrum and it magically works on him too?

[Brookshw]

They should not have any dreads. Those are veteran heroes given a living burial in a walking coffin. But being all ned soldiers, the NewMarines dont have any veteral heroes to stuff into a dread.

Lore be damned, if GW thinks it'll make money then it'll happen! Similarly, upsized terminators shouldn't be a thing......but you know they will (or maybe primaris centurions).

[Blackhawk748]

Cuz as we know, marines needed more stuff. Not like the Ork line has several ancient models in need of updating *cough*warbuggy*cough*Deffkopta*cough*

[Haruspex_Pariah]

The FAQ released on the 15th did mention a "Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought", in a poorly veiled attempt to get people hyped over the Primaris Marines.

I was gonna ponder the fluff implications thereof but then remembered the tangent that happened in the previous thread.

Rules and army comp wise I have absolutely no clue how they're going to differentiate them from the regular Dreads. We already have venerable dreads, siege dreads, chaplain dreads, death company dreads, psychic dreads, gun platform dreads, 30k dreads that explode, dreads even bigger than those, etc.

"Redemptor" might be an adjective tacked onto an existing model, or maybe a new pattern entirely.

[boomwolf]

Yea, we get it, marines are the "main army"
But seriusly, they have way too much stuff compared to others.
Chaos, tau and nids - the factions that actually invent new stuff on a regular basis, has about as much as marines only once you combine them.

[Trekkin]

Yea, we get it, marines are the "main army"
But seriusly, they have way too much stuff compared to others.
Chaos, tau and nids - the factions that actually invent new stuff on a regular basis, has about as much as marines only once you combine them.

Not to mention how easy it would be to give Chaos the same stuff the Marines have; just change the rules and mandate that they be spikey and old.

Orks? Orks can loot anything. Just bash on some more armor and debris and Grots and drop the BS to 2 in the process.

It would be so easy to make more people get excited about the new models than just Marine players, and they'd sell more of the same models in the process -- and at least partially ameliorate the complaints about how much of an advantage it is for the Marines to get all the new toys and be first in line to take advantage of every new rule.

I never did understand why they got rid of Looted Vehicles except in order to shower their preferred players with more exclusive goodies.

[Wraith]

I never did understand why they got rid of Looted Vehicles except in order to shower their preferred players with more exclusive goodies.

Mostly it was to prevent conversions using 3rd-party miniatures. The amount of kit bashing that could be done and still make it look 'Orky' mean that some dumbasses were using everything from rival miniature companies' models, to Hornby train sets as part of their armies, and GW did. Not. Want. That. At. All.

[Trekkin]

Mostly it was to prevent conversions using 3rd-party miniatures. The amount of kit bashing that could be done and still make it look 'Orky' mean that some dumbasses were using everything from rival miniature companies' models, to Hornby train sets as part of their armies, and GW did. Not. Want. That. At. All.

So you mean that GW saw players actually put together Orky war trains -- I can only assume with Grot stokers and Orks in engineer garb and Deffcowcatchas-- and decided that this was a thing to be discouraged?

What a very great pity.

[boomwolf]

Yea, because it makes them no money.

I hope looting is back.
I'm not orks player, but the implications are fun.
Plus, if orks can loot, chaos can corrupt :-P

[Drasius]

So you mean that GW saw players actually put together Orky war trains -- I can only assume with Grot stokers and Orks in engineer garb and Deffcowcatchas-- and decided that this was a thing to be discouraged?

What a very great pity.

GW saw people not buying their models, and even worse, buying their competitors models instead of theirs, and decided it was a thing to be discouraged. As a business, it would be the right thing to do for said business, so I'm not sure why people are getting salty about it.

[Bobby Baratheon]

It does make business sense, though I suppose Ork players can always count their contraptions as Trukks or Battlewagons, depending on size. It would be nice for at least a nod to it, or just an adaptation of the 50% GW rule for conversions.

[Wraith]

So you mean that GW saw players actually put together Orky war trains -- I can only assume with Grot stokers and Orks in engineer garb and Deffcowcatchas-- and decided that this was a thing to be discouraged?

What a very great pity.

I saw Trukks and Battlewagons with all sorts of brik-a-brak stuck to them, from various sources up to and including 12" Gundam action figures, but I have never seen a fully converted Wartrain. I like to think it definitely did happen, though.

[Tome]

I saw Trukks and Battlewagons with all sorts of brik-a-brak stuck to them, from various sources up to and including 12" Gundam action figures, but I have never seen a fully converted Wartrain. I like to think it definitely did happen, though.

It definitely did.

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[Brookshw]

GW saw people not buying their models, and even worse, buying their competitors models instead of theirs, and decided it was a thing to be discouraged. As a business, it would be the right thing to do for said business, so I'm not sure why people are getting salty about it.

Business sense, sure, sounds good. However it did take something away which players otherwise had so there was a loss (not counting the time and effort already spent when it was legit). Without an offset, i.e. here are more new cool orky pieces to play w/, its easy to be annoyed. It I take away your hamburger and give you a slice of pizza you may be annoyed, but if I take away your hamburger and give you nothing back you'll be more annoyed.

They did make rules for looted tanks so I guess there is that, but they didn't give a kit for them so that's kinda weird and maybe a bit counter productive

[Blackhawk748]

I never did understand why they got rid of Looted Vehicles except in order to shower their preferred players with more exclusive goodies.

There was such an uproar about them removing the Looted Wagon they had to give us the stats for it in White Dwarf.

Like i said, Orks got 2 new units in 7th. That is 6 new units since 4th. 3 of which happen to be the plane, and only 1 of those was ever remotely usable, 1 is that other Ork Plane noone has, cuz the rules are in a book noone cares about and the other 2 are the Naughts and they where overpriced trash. How many new fangled toys did Space marines get?

I guess what im saying is, is that other people get new things too, its just that their new things are usually lazily made or just bad.

[Drasius]

Business sense, sure, sounds good. However it did take something away which players otherwise had so there was a loss (not counting the time and effort already spent when it was legit). Without an offset, i.e. here are more new cool orky pieces to play w/, its easy to be annoyed. It I take away your hamburger and give you a slice of pizza you may be annoyed, but if I take away your hamburger and give you nothing back you'll be more annoyed.

They did make rules for looted tanks so I guess there is that, but they didn't give a kit for them so that's kinda weird and maybe a bit counter productive

If you insist on buying a hamburger from my competitor that is made using my stolen ingredients, then you can't (or, rather, shouldn't) complain to me when they get shut down regardless of how delicious it is.

I'm not saying that GW has been a generous overseer to Ork players (or anyone who doesn't play marines, eldar or tau over the last ~5 years), I'm just saying that there is a good, logical reason for them to take the steps that they did. Yes, it sucks balls that GW insists on giving marines 15 different variations of the same thing on top of a dozen new kits they didn't need or ask for while many other armies are still metal/finecast/upgrade kits, but we all know that's how they roll because marines alone sell roughly the same amount as all the other races combined. To a certain extent, marines actually subsidise the "lesser" armies, so as much as we'd like to whinge, moan and complain, I strongly suspect that we'd all whine a lot more if the $ price of our favourite armies kit doubled overnight while marines went down 25%.

[boomwolf]

That's not true.

Orks spesifically got shafted, but during the same time period quite a few non marines got love.
Nids got quite a few stuff, some more viable than others, but a wide veriaty, plus the genestealer cult sub-army got returned to the game (was it last seen in third edition iirc?) and looks and plays well.
Harlequins made it back to the game with some gorgeous kits. The main thing keeping them down, us craftworld bring so absurdly strong that other eldar can't find niches craftworld dosent dominant.
Admech got entire lines of things,split into two armies for some reason (three if you count Knights), but they are good, and they mix well.
Tau "main" line (as on actual tau and not auxiliary) has been thoroughly expanded, and many kits updated. The only things NOT updated are the tanks, shadowsun, stealth suits, aunva and the auxiliaries. More than half the model line of 5th got updated, and about as much new content introduced.
Chaos got the daemon engines, who you either love or hate (split audience here), and late 7th saw some awesome 1ksons models, even if the rules are not fully baked, and finally got legions back.


Marines got the most, and the best, but many armies got themselves a patch, or even a full bloen face-lift over 6th and 7th. Not to mention the newly revived armies.

[Brookshw]

If you insist on buying a hamburger from my competitor that is made using my stolen ingredients, then you can't (or, rather, shouldn't) complain to me when they get shut down regardless of how delicious it is.

The distinction that I believe people are agitated by is that the hamburger was originally legal. Can't blame GW for backtracking, but I can understand why people were upset. Don't forget, those models they can't use anymore were still an investment by them.

Nids got quite a few stuff,

They can have the maleceptor back (and I'd give back the toxicrene as well though I gather some people like it).

[Lost Demiurge]

Everyone in my local crowd is pretty hyped for Eighth. Don't think I'll be getting the box, since I have no use for the nurgle stuff, but I'm down for the main book and the indices.

The indices are what has me REALLY excited. For the first time, every army's getting updated to the new rules at once. Across-the-board balancing makes me smile.

Granted, the power creep will start up again with new books shortly, but that's fine. It's GW, any attempt at actually leveling things out is to be encouraged and celebrated.

[Requizen]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...0000-missions/

Missions today!

Intro:
-Player placed objectives, unlike AoS which are all static based on the mission
-Alternating unit deployment, which is much better imo
-Shown mission ends at 5, no random game length (please be standard)

Basic Mission from Free Rules:
-Person who has less Power Points decides who has the first turn. If both are the same, person who wins deployment rolloff decides.
-If the Underdog (person with lower PPoints) is way less, they get rerolls based on how outmatched they are. Really good for Open Play
-Mission has 3 potential victory conditions. End of game across 4 objectives, end of game for single objective, or growing points over turns.
-Underdog wins if it's a tie.

More info:
-3 Open Play missions, 6 Narrative, 12 Matched Play Missions (6 Maelstrom, 6 Eternal War)! 21 Missions + free one!
-Narrative missions based around attacker/defender it seems, with specific Stratagems.
-Shown Attack/Defend stratagems:

Spoiler: stratagems

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-New (well, classic but wasn't in any of 7th) deployment type shown

Spoiler: Deployment

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-New Maelstrom Deck, new Maelstrom Stratagem for 2 CP that lets you discard and redraw.

Looks awesome to me!

[Requizen]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...on-focus-orks/

ORKS

-Meganobz are a 2+ W3, which is very tough in this edition
-Big Choppa seems pretty good (S+2, Ap-1, 2 Damage)
-Warboss can hit d3 models in a unit to prevent more from running away
-Nobz stop fleeing from Morale tests on a 6+ for nearby units (supporting Boyz blobs)
-Mob rule apparently lets you have LD equal to the number of models in a unit, making big blobs of Boyz very hard to shift via Morale
-Painboy gives a nearby unit 6+ wound ignore (FNP). Dunno if this is passive or an ability that needs to be activated.
-KFF is a 5++ against shooting for all nearby units! Stack that 5++/6+++ for hard to shift Orks!
-WAAAGH lets you Advance + Charge (unknown if it's a one-off or all the time)
-'Ere We Go rerolls charge distances, unknown if it's just an army rule or more specific
-Wierdboy has Da Jump spell, letting him teleport one nearby Ork unit anywhere on the board with no scatter, 9" away. Guessing you can still charge since that seems to be standard now, but no scatter is a big deal!

[Eddums]

I'm getting the impression that the 8th Ed. 'codices' (as opposed to 'indices', oh, this is gonna be fun) will primarily be fluff and model based, rather than rules.

So, everyone gets their rules all together in the indices, then over the next few months, codices are released which reprint the rules, and add all the fluff/pretty model pics/theme idea/whatever. That way, the rules get to remain internally balanced, and veteran gamers don't have to buy all the fluff/model stuff unless they want to.

Not sure how this stacks up to other people's information, as I say, it's just the impression I have.