Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[Rizhail]

Remember, you move your charge distance, even if you fail the charge. They still suck, but they'll get into combat. Eventually.

Not actually true. Looking at a leak of the charge phase rule page: "The first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy model from one of the target units. No models in the charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that was not a target of its charge. If this is impossible, the charge fails and no models in the charging unit move this phase." So they're even more terrible than they initially seemed.

[Blackhawk748]

Not actually true. Looking at a leak of the charge phase rule page: "The first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy model from one of the target units. No models in the charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that was not a target of its charge. If this is impossible, the charge fails and no models in the charging unit move this phase." So they're even more terrible than they initially seemed.

Well so much for that brief ray of sunshine. Call me when Orks and Sisters arent being shafted and the unique Chaos stuff doesnt suck or isnt stupidly clunky.

[Brookshw]

Not actually true. Looking at a leak of the charge phase rule page: "The first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy model from one of the target units. No models in the charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that was not a target of its charge. If this is impossible, the charge fails and no models in the charging unit move this phase." So they're even more terrible than they initially seemed.

I'm going to take that with a bit of salt as they previously confirmed you do move. Something isn't right here.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm going to take that with a bit of salt as they previously confirmed you do move. Something isn't right here.

Like the fact that these rules look like they need to take a run through the Editors once more?

[Drasius]

Not actually true. Looking at a leak of the charge phase rule page: "The first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy model from one of the target units. No models in the charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that was not a target of its charge. If this is impossible, the charge fails and no models in the charging unit move this phase." So they're even more terrible than they initially seemed.

Or that the qualifier only applies to the preceeding scentance, so the only time you don't move on a failed charge is when you can't make the charge AND you can't move without coming within 1" of a model that you didn't declare as your charge target.

Or GW is "teh suk", guess we'll have to wait for the FAQ/errata.

Re : the totally disappointing and yet totally expected balls up of both rules and points, part of me is almost glad I'm currently in the process of moving somewhere that is an hour drive to the nearest gaming store.

[Brookshw]

Like the fact that these rules look like they need to take a run through the Editors once more?

More that context is minimal. Atm I'm more inclined to think of that snippet as prohibiting moving via charge so that you're within 1" on a unit that wasn't the charge target. Seems more accurate and doesn't contradict previous official posts.

[Lord Ruby34]

I'd agree, except for the fact that nobody has anything. Chaos have no Daemon Weapons, save for Abbadon's. In fact, Chaos Lords are, as of the launch, just Space Marine Captains with less wargear access and the word 'Chaos' in the name. Imperium have no Relics. Et cetera and so forth. If Sigmar is any indication we'll see all of those, as well as rules for actual mechanical effects for Septs, Chapters and what have you when Codexes start getting released. Until then, everyone gets to play super-generic and that's the end of it.

Huh, I just looked through the Tau stuff and didn't even know that no one else had relics either. That kinda blows all around.

Still, as long as it's better than 7th, I'm all for it, even if it's still a bit wonky and incomplete.

[deuterio12]

Guardsmen are 4 points each. And since lasguns can hurt anything now I wonder how effect it would be just to bring 500 guardsmen to a 2000 point game.

Meanwhile cultists are 5 points each despite crappier armor, lower leadership and crappier weapon options, not to mention complete lack of support.

[JNAProductions]

Guardsmen are 4 points each. And since lasguns can hurt anything now I wonder how effect it would be just to bring 500 guardsmen to a 2000 point game.

Meanwhile cultists are 5 points each despite crappier armor, lower leadership and crappier weapon options, not to mention complete lack of support.

Boy, aren't I glad that GW cares about Chaos players? -_-

And hell, I'm not even the worst off! I play Nurgle!

[Renegade Paladin]

"Crisis Suits come 3 to a squad 'cause that's what's in the box, dur."
*Sees that Hive Guard can be taken in squads of 1*

What is GW even doing?

I dunno. Ogryn squads are capped at 9 models now, because they're 3 to a box. Not that people were taking squads of 10 anyway.

Volcano cannon: 120", Heavy d6, S16, AP -5, 2d6 damage. Re-rolls failed Wound rolls against units with the Titanic keyword.

[boomwolf]

Well so much for that brief ray of sunshine. Call me when Orks and Sisters arent being shafted and the unique Chaos stuff doesnt suck or isnt stupidly clunky.

Well, havn't gone through orks and sisters yet, so I can't tell you about these, but chaos seems to have some nice things.

Cult marines seem nasty.
SoT seems rather good too.
Exalted sorcerer are great (TS only tough), and would be amazing had there been more spells to choose from.
Warp talons are fast, and hit hard. (and can assault from DS while forbidding overwatch)
Some of the chaos characters seems pretty darn strong
The heldrake is pretty rad once you stop looking at it like a plane and start looking at it like a "walker"
Havocs and Raptors are actually better than imperial counterparts methinks.
The spawn might be decent.

Other than being bland as an imperial fist, chaos seems to be doing fine at the moment.

[Cheesegear]

Sigh. "Here comes the New GW, same as the Old GW."

I'm not worried about New vs. Old GW. I'll just ask questions on their Facebook. If I get answers, great. If my comments/questions get deleted, then we have problems.

What I'm really worried about, is the 'play testing' that went into this, and, given how...Well, I'm actually kind of worried how Frontline Gaming comes out of this. The FLG guys have their names attached to Warhammer Community hype-pieces. Before, we took their word for it. FLG are cool guys who know the game. Surely they can be trusted to play-test a new game...How much did they sell out? The leaks are out. Were some of these things approved? Who by? Who play-tested [Unit X] and decided that that was the way to go?
Their faces and reputations are on the internet. We know who these people are.

At least everything through WarhammerTV (and Blackshirts) is filtered through Company Men, and we - the audience - know that. But FLG? They're supposed to be different...
Unless money/perks changed hands (which of course it did)...

...Or am I the only one thinking about that?

[bluntpencil]

Try as I might, I can't find the official Facebook page.

I plan on building a Deathwatch Watch Company, but don't want to find out that the Bikers etc are out of print.

[Cheesegear]

Try as I might, I can't find the official Facebook page.

Warhammer 40,000
Warhammer Age of Sigmar

Remember, look for 'Pages', not 'Groups'.

I plan on building a Deathwatch Watch Company, but don't want to find out that the Bikers etc are out of print.

They're not in Australia. But, given that you can just buy the Deathwatch Upgrade Frame separately, they might be, elsewhere.

[Blackhawk748]

Guardsmen are 4 points each. And since lasguns can hurt anything now I wonder how effect it would be just to bring 500 guardsmen to a 2000 point game.

Meanwhile cultists are 5 points each despite crappier armor, lower leadership and crappier weapon options, not to mention complete lack of support.

Guard a 2 points cheaper than Ork Boyz now? GW, stop smoking crack when you write rules!!

I'm not worried about New vs. Old GW. I'll just ask questions on their Facebook. If I get answers, great. If my comments/questions get deleted, then we have problems.

What I'm really worried about, is the 'play testing' that went into this, and, given how...Well, I'm actually kind of worried how Frontline Gaming comes out of this. The FLG guys have their names attached to Warhammer Community hype-pieces. Before, we took their word for it. FLG are cool guys who know the game. Surely they can be trusted to play-test a new game...How much did they sell out? The leaks are out. Were some of these things approved? Who by? Who play-tested [Unit X] and decided that that was the way to go?
Their faces and reputations are on the internet. We know who these people are.

At least everything through WarhammerTV (and Blackshirts) is filtered through Company Men, and we - the audience - know that. But FLG? They're supposed to be different...
Unless money/perks changed hands (which of course it did)...

...Or am I the only one thinking about that?

I have a feeling FLG are gonna lose a lot of fans. There are so many fiddly things in here that dont make sense and should be obvious on a read through (ie Cultists costing more than Guard)

[deuterio12]

Guard a 2 points cheaper than Ork Boyz now? GW, stop smoking crack when you write rules!!

Ork boyz at least got some buffs. Re-rolling charges, Str 4 all the time, mob rule back. And you don't seem to need to pay extra for the Nob sergeant.

Meanwhile cultists can't even be made fearless by a Chaos Lord anymore.

[Cheesegear]

If I could be bothered, I'd be going through those Faction Spotlights, see if I could find any lies hype-that-did-not-deliver.

[Requizen]

I'm not worried about New vs. Old GW. I'll just ask questions on their Facebook. If I get answers, great. If my comments/questions get deleted, then we have problems.

What I'm really worried about, is the 'play testing' that went into this, and, given how...Well, I'm actually kind of worried how Frontline Gaming comes out of this. The FLG guys have their names attached to Warhammer Community hype-pieces. Before, we took their word for it. FLG are cool guys who know the game. Surely they can be trusted to play-test a new game...How much did they sell out? The leaks are out. Were some of these things approved? Who by? Who play-tested [Unit X] and decided that that was the way to go?
Their faces and reputations are on the internet. We know who these people are.

At least everything through WarhammerTV (and Blackshirts) is filtered through Company Men, and we - the audience - know that. But FLG? They're supposed to be different...
Unless money/perks changed hands (which of course it did)...

...Or am I the only one thinking about that?

For what it's worth, every time this comes up on FLG they make a point to say something along the lines of "We didn't write the rules, we only gave feedback. Whether they use that feedback or not is up to GW, but we think they did well".

I wouldn't get too far on the Woe Is X train yet, anyway. Nobody's played the silly game yet.

[Brookshw]

So matched play, 1500 pts (midrange), its predicted to be a 2-3 hour game. So much for that 90 minute prediction!

[Cheesegear]

For what it's worth, every time this comes up on FLG they make a point to say something along the lines of "We didn't write the rules, we only gave feedback. Whether they use that feedback or not is up to GW, but we think they did well".

The problem is that they then wrote hype-pieces illustrating how awesome (!) the game was going to be.
...Cue the totally mixed reactions.

[ZeltArruin]

In regards to the charging rules, in that you cannot get stuck in with any unit other than the one(?) you declared against: why is GW so afraid of multicharges? I think forcing Tau people to not clump together in a giant hurt ball is a good idea.

[Requizen]

In regards to the charging rules, in that you cannot get stuck in with any unit other than the one(?) you declared against: why is GW so afraid of multicharges? I think forcing Tau people to not clump together in a giant hurt ball is a good idea.

That's not true? You can declare multicharges still, and with clever 3" Pile-In you can drag in nearby units. If they put things right next to each other feel free to Pile in such a way that you get within 1" of the next unit as well. And you can Consolidate into other units. Clumping up squads is the bad times.

[ZeltArruin]

That's not true? You can declare multicharges still, and with clever 3" Pile-In you can drag in nearby units. If they put things right next to each other feel free to Pile in such a way that you get within 1" of the next unit as well. And you can Consolidate into other units. Clumping up squads is the bad times.

My reading comprehension is not well this morning.

[The Patterner]

If I could be bothered, I'd be going through those Faction Spotlights, see if I could find any lies hype-that-did-not-deliver.

Didn't they say that Chaiswords would be better than normal close combat weapons now?

Cause unless I'm missing something what I see is that they have removed that you get +1A from having 2 CCW, but you get an extra A from chainswords (as well as several other CCW).

Not quite a lie, but when an assault marine goes from having 2 attacks to having 2 attacks, while the sarge with PW goes from having 3, to having 2, I don't really see the improvement.

[Theodoric]

Didn't they say that Chaiswords would be better than normal close combat weapons now?

Cause unless I'm missing something what I see is that they have removed that you get +1A from having 2 CCW, but you get an extra A from chainswords (as well as several other CCW).

Not quite a lie, but when an assault marine goes from having 2 attacks to having 2 attacks, while the sarge with PW goes from having 3, to having 2, I don't really see the improvement.

That's more a faulty inference not a broken promise.

Which kind-of goes for a lot of these 'errors' or 'lies' (always a bad word since it implies intent o deceive). Part of the deal with teasers.
Anyway, that's where the feedback section on the community website will be for. I'm pretty sure that a lot of army-specific finagles will be dealt with when the codexes will roll out, if not before it with FAQS.

[DataNinja]

Didn't they say that Chaiswords would be better than normal close combat weapons now?

Cause unless I'm missing something what I see is that they have removed that you get +1A from having 2 CCW, but you get an extra A from chainswords (as well as several other CCW).

Not quite a lie, but when an assault marine goes from having 2 attacks to having 2 attacks, while the sarge with PW goes from having 3, to having 2, I don't really see the improvement.

It all depends on the army, from what I've seen. (Not that I've looked at much yet.) For instance, Eldar basic CCW don't give extra attacks, but they do allow you to re-roll failed to hit rolls.

[Gauntlet]

Didn't they say that Chaiswords would be better than normal close combat weapons now?

Cause unless I'm missing something what I see is that they have removed that you get +1A from having 2 CCW, but you get an extra A from chainswords (as well as several other CCW).

Not quite a lie, but when an assault marine goes from having 2 attacks to having 2 attacks, while the sarge with PW goes from having 3, to having 2, I don't really see the improvement.

Assault marines have the same number of attacks before because of the chainsword changes, but they get an additional 'free' attack because they can Bolt Pistol people in the face in the Shooting phase while engaged.

[Voidhawk]

Assault marines have the same number of attacks before because of the chainsword changes, but they get an additional 'free' attack because they can Bolt Pistol people in the face in the Shooting phase while engaged.

I'm not sure that really counts, because in 90% of situations the enemy will fall-back rather than remain engaged. Also, you now don't get +1 attack for charging. Though striking first is undeniably better for almost all forces, with Dark Eldar being about the only ones truly sad about the loss of Initiative.

EDIT: I've been working my way through the Necron stuff, and have just noticed that the Hyperphase Sword and the Voidblade have exactly the same stats. And then the Voidblade costs 3pts more. That's just lazy.

[lord_khaine]

I'm not sure that really counts, because in 90% of situations the enemy will fall-back rather than remain engaged. Also, you now don't get +1 attack for charging. Though striking first is undeniably better for almost all forces, with Dark Eldar being about the only ones truly sad about the loss of Initiative.

Well.. im pretty certain regular Eldar miss it as well.
And i guess also Tyranids? though it seems like they are large winners in this change.

EDIT: I've been working my way through the Necron stuff, and have just noticed that the Hyperphase Sword and the Voidblade have exactly the same stats. And then the Voidblade costs 3pts more. That's just lazy.

Well.. i dont think anyone ever used voidblades before? so nothing new? :P
But It seems more and more clear that this is just a temporary measure to get everyone up to date with the new system.

[Requizen]

Sword and Voidblade have different points because different units buy them. While it doesn't make sense for Overlords (who get access to both and will just pick the cheapest), the points seemed to be balanced more for the Lychguard and Praetorians who get to choose those options. Why they didn't just fiddle it around so they ended up the same is beyond me, though.

How are you guys measuring the effectiveness of Command Points? They're obviously very strong, especially that reroll, but are they strong enough to pick Battalion over other Detachment choices for the extra Points? Obviously depends on how good your Troops are, but the ability to make a list without troops is pretty interesting and for some armies, extremely powerful.