Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[Closet_Skeleton]

But there are definitely areas I'm less happy about (e.g., smite w/ zoans, venomthrope def buff nerf, biovore damage output). It's good but a lot of others did pretty well. I think its going to be a while before the dust settles,.....and then we get to do it all over again w/ the codexes

Biovores are amazing. They're no exocrines but they do something unique rather than just being less points efficient versions of their big brothers.

Venomthropes weren't nerfed, cover was. They'll be worse in some situations but better in a lot of them.

under venomthrope cloud=

old edition
bolt gun vs termagant in open =0.296 average damage

bolt gun vs termagant in cover =0.148 average damage

bolt gun vs termagant in ruin= 0.074 average damage

new edition
bolt gun vs termagant in open= 0.277 average damage

bolt gun vs termagant in cover= 0.222 average damage

bolt gun vs termagant in ruin (cityfight only) = 0.166 average damage


old edition
bolt gun vs warrior in open= 0.166 average damage

bolt gun vs warrior in cover= 0.111 average damage

bolt gun vs warrior in ruin= 0.055 average damage

new edition
bolt gun vs warrior in open =0.125 average damage

bolt gun vs warrior in cover = 0.083 average damage

bolt gun vs warrior in ruin (cityfight only) = 0.041 average damage


old edition
krak missile vs termagant in open 0.370 = average damage

krak missile vs termagant in cover = 0.148 average damage

krak missile vs termagant in ruin = 0.092 average damage

new edition
krak missile vs termagant in open = 0.416 average damage

krak missile vs termagant in cover = 0.416 average damage

krak missile vs termagant in ruin (cityfight only) = 0.347 average damage


old edition
krak missile vs warrior in open = 0.370 average damage

krak missile vs warrior in cover = 0.148 average damage

krak missile vs warrior in ruin = 0.092 average damage

new edition
krak missile vs warrior in open = 0.347 average damage

krak missile vs warrior in cover = 0.277 average damage

krak missile vs warrior in ruin (cityfight only) = 0.208 average damage

On a random note tyranids under venomthropes are now immune to quad guns. This is a moot point since venomthropes fly and are therefore not immune to quad guns at all.

[Brookshw]

Biovores are amazing. They're no exocrines but they do something unique rather than just being less points efficient versions of their big brothers.

I'm not so convinced. Yes, dealing MW is good but they lost their anti-infantry capacity. Some of that is the loss of templates, but rather than being able to hit multiple infantry now they.....don't. Whether trading the capacity of potentially more wounds for MW is worth the trade......maybe against heavy elite armies.

Venomthropes weren't nerfed, cover was. They'll be worse in some situations but better in a lot of them.

They halved the range, halved the effect and restricted it to infantry. That's a nerf. The nice thing is that it's not a cover effect so remains good against flamers etc.edit: no I take that last part back, those aren't rolling to hit in the first place. Derp.

[Mystic Muse]

So, I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this question, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Why is there no Sisters of Battle Army Building Guide?

[Cheesegear]

WHY IS THERE A FLYING LAND RAIDER NOW!?

You know what? ...Fine.

[hamishspence]

Was that for the Adeptus Custodes or the Sisters of Silence? We saw flying Rhinos for the Custodes in Collected Visions and for the Sisters in the The Beast Arises series. Same tech applied to Land Raiders maybe?

[Brookshw]

WHY IS THERE A FLYING LAND RAIDER NOW!?

You know what? ...Fine.

Stolen Tau anti-grav technology

The blessing of the Omnissiah.

[Cheesegear]

Was that for the Adeptus Custodes or the Sisters of Silence?

Primaris Marines. The Repulsor. Pre-release video just came out.

[Professor Gnoll]

WHY IS THERE A FLYING LAND RAIDER NOW!?

You know what? ...Fine.

Huh. Never thought *this* picture was gonna be relevant again.

[Requizen]

So, thrown a list together to try out the new edition costings. I'm able to get most of what I'm interested in into a 2000 point list, but I'm going for the cheaper 'elite' options rather than trying to jam in super-heavies.

This is what I'm looking at at the moment:

Spoiler: Tau 2000

Show

Battalion Detachment - 824 points - 3 Command Points

Commander - 139
3 Cyclic Ion Blasters
Advanced Targeting System

Commander - 139
3 Cyclic Ion Blasters
Advanced Targeting System

Commander - 139
3 Cyclic Ion Blasters
Advanced Targeting System

Fire Warriors (12) - 96
Pulse Rifles, Photon Grenades

Fire Warriors (12) - 96
Pulse Rifles, Photon Grenades

Breachers (10) - 88
Pulse Blasters, Photon Grenades, Guardian Drone

Devilfish - 127
Burst Cannon, 2 Gun Drones

Outrider Detachment - 234 points - 1 Command Point

Cadre Fireblade - 42
Pulse Rifle, Markerlight, Photon Grenades

Gun Drones (8) - 64
Pulse Carbines

Gun Drones (8) - 64
Pulse Carbines

Gun Drones (8) - 64
Pulse Carbines

Outrider Detachment - 217 points - 1 Command Point

Darkstrider - 45
Pulse Carbine, Markerlight, Photon Grenades

Pathfinders (6) - 76
Pulse Carbines, Markerlights
Recon Drone, Pulse Accelerator Drone, Grav-Inhibitor Drone

Pathfinders (6) - 48
Pulse Carbines, Markerlights

Pathfinders (6) - 48
Pulse Carbines, Markerlights

Vanguard Detachment - 725 points - 1 Command Point

Shadowsun - 173
2 Fusion Blasters
Command Link Drone

Ghostkeel - 174
Cyclic Ion Raker, 2 Burst Cannons
Drone Controller, Advanced Targeting System

Ghostkeel - 189
Cyclic Ion Raker, 2 Fusion Blasters
Advanced Targeting System

Ghostkeel - 189
Cyclic Ion Raker, 2 Fusion Blasters
Advanced Targeting System

Total: 2000

+6 Command Points for 9 total. Plenty of strength 5 shooting. Shadowsun and the Ghostkeels hunt down any heavy / high wound models, and the Commanders fill either role depending on what's needed, or hunt heavier infantry like bikers and terminators. Breachers are another threat, and also reasonably good against anything, and reasonably likely to get there with the durability of the Devilfish now.

I'm tempted to reduce the Fire Warrior squad sizes for more Gun Drones - since Drones are way better at shooting and more mobile / durable - but I'm not sure if the FWs' better Morale means it's worth keeping them as big squads. If I had a few more points, I'd swap the Fire Warriors for more Breachers in Devilfish, and increase the size of the Drone squads.

Do note that 2000 points only allows 3 Detachments per the Matched Play section, so you can do the same build but with 1 less Point. Other than that, looks good. Is that many Pathfinders enough?

But the nuance! The pointless hemming and hawing for 20 minutes before you actually play!

Oh noes, people might actually get to play pickup games without a prebuilt list in a reasonable time! The humanity!

Power and Points are both fine systems with their own place and I'm glad GW put both in. I'm expecting there to be OP stuff in both, of course.

[Gauntlet]

Do note that 2000 points only allows 3 Detachments per the Matched Play section, so you can do the same build but with 1 less Point. Other than that, looks good. Is that many Pathfinders enough?

Whoops. Didn't notice that detachment limit.

I think it's enough Pathfinders, since now Markerlights don't get removed so 5 hits is enough to shoot a unit with any number of yours. If there's a larger number of small units that need targeting, I think it's more efficient to get a single hit with markers and have more shooting than to try and get 5 hits on a ton of targets.

The changes also mean that markerlights benefit from each other, so I can get the first ML hit with Darkstrider or the Fireblade on a 2+, then be able to reroll 1s with a Pathfinder unit's shots meaning a single unit has reasonable odds of bringing my markerlight counter all the way up from 1 to 5.

If the pathfinders have been shot up lategame, or I really need a good load of shooting for a turn, I can always use one of the commanders to reroll shots with the Mont'ka / Kauyon thing.

Looking at the maths, 5 markerlights increases your BS4+ hits from 50% to ~78% (4+ -> 3+ with rerolling 1s)
You're spending about 80 points for those markerlight hits (either 10 Pathfinders, or one BS2+ markerlight user and ~7 Pathfinders, but the BS2+ guys do other stuff too).
You're spending 80 points to increase your hit numbers by 64%, so you need to be shooting with more than 80/0.64 = 125 points worth of guns for it to break even in points. Below that points level you'd gain more wounds per point firing more guns than you would shooting markerlights.

Interestingly a single markerlight hit increases your hits from 50% to ~58% (so a 16% increase) for 16 points, meaning you need to be shooting more than ~100 points of guns to be worth it. Interestingly this means that markerlighting with pathfinders for small units is often less effective than just shooting the carbines - if you've got 6 pathfinders and 12 fire warriors, markerlighting increases the FWs' hits from 12 to 14 on average (with rapid fire), whereas just shooting carbines gives 6 additional hits with the same profile for a way better increase.

[Turalisj]

Trying to decide how to build my Rust Stalkers, since I think Infiltrate is gonna be a big deal.......

Taser Goad vs Power Sword. Does the potential 3 hits and strength 6 win out against AP-3 but less strength?

[LansXero]

I'm... Not a fan of the system. It's weird and finicky. But it is what it is, and with some sort of an Army Builder app doing the fiddly bits for you it shouldn't be too bad to get a list together.

Still can´t wrap my head around why that isnt a thing on release. Hell, make it a paid app, and charge microtransactions on future data-slates. So much stuff to track that could be handled by a proper app.

[Gauntlet]

Trying to decide how to build my Rust Stalkers, since I think Infiltrate is gonna be a big deal.......

Taser Goad vs Power Sword. Does the potential 3 hits and strength 6 win out against AP-3 but less strength?

They're strength 4 base, right?

Strength 4 -> 6 is pretty much a +1 to wound, except against T5 (where it's +2) or T7 (where it does nothing). You're increasing the number of wounds you get by (0.17 x save odds x attacks)

AP-3 increases your expected wounds inflicted by (wound odds x 0.5 x attacks) against anything with a 4+ save or better.

The additional hits from the Goad give you an extra 0.33 hits per attack (17% odds x 2 additional hits).

For example, against a Terminator (where you're think the Sword would be good):

Sword: 0.5 (hits per attack) x 0.5 (wounds per hit) x 0.66 (failed saves per wound) = 0.083 failed saves per attack
Goad: 0.88 (hits per attack) x 0.66 (wounds per hit) x 0.17 (failed saves per wound) = 0.098 failed saves per attack

The Taser also is negated less, since it still works against things with invulnerables or bad saves. I'd only go for the power swords if you expect to be fighting a lot of vehicles - tanks are very frequently toughness 7 where the additional strength does nothing, and there the swords win out.

If I got the numbers wrong and they're strength 5 base, then forget everything I said - strength 5 and 6 are the same against everything that isn't toughness 3, 5 or 6, so it depends on what you're fighting against.

[Voidhawk]

I'm not so convinced. Yes, dealing MW is good but they lost their anti-infantry capacity. Some of that is the loss of templates, but rather than being able to hit multiple infantry now they.....don't. Whether trading the capacity of potentially more wounds for MW is worth the trade......maybe against heavy elite armies.

Three biovores is 108pts, and deal MWs at 48" range. Instead of missing they leave behind bombs that get in the way of enemy movement, and either deal more MWs later or use up enemy firepower to remove. They're great. Anti-horde has never been a problem for Tyranids, everything they have can do it in CC if they need to.

[Requizen]

I'm thinking Doomsday Arks might be the big hit for Necron lists. Long range multi damage, resistant to multi damage with QS, able to shoot down blobs or big targets with relatively equal prowess.

The downside may be the durability. T6 14W 4+ is relatively squishy, since it can be plinked down with high strength low damage quite easily, but with Living Metal you can reduce that a bit.

[Gauntlet]

I'm thinking Doomsday Arks might be the big hit for Necron lists. Long range multi damage, resistant to multi damage with QS, able to shoot down blobs or big targets with relatively equal prowess.

The downside may be the durability. T6 14W 4+ is relatively squishy, since it can be plinked down with high strength low damage quite easily, but with Living Metal you can reduce that a bit.

High damage weapons (particularly at range) seem to be very much the hardest thing to come by in this edition, at least for a low number of points. I think it's partially because big guns often only come on relatively tough platforms, and vehicles and big units went up in points a lot. I could see a squad of Marine Devastators or AM heavy weapons teams being very effective monster killers now, just because all the other lascannon carriers cost so many more points.

[Adrastos42]

So that repulsor tank wasn't in the leaked army books. Is that evidence that the leaked books are not the final ones, or just that they made the repulsor too late to add it in?

[Requizen]

So that repulsor tank wasn't in the leaked army books. Is that evidence that the leaked books are not the final ones, or just that they made the repulsor too late to add it in?

It'll probably be in the new Space Marine codex that will come out this year. I wouldn't be surprised to see it in August or September, and I'm prepared for all the "but I just bought Imperium 1!" posts as well.

[Voidhawk]

So that repulsor tank wasn't in the leaked army books. Is that evidence that the leaked books are not the final ones, or just that they made the repulsor too late to add it in?

The Indexes are merely starters, to get every army vaguely playable in the new system. You might notice they don't have unique warlord traits, relics, chapter-tactics, or indeed much of anything beyond basic unit profiles. Consider it a giant beta-test. Actual Codexes are coming down the pipe. Reliable rumors have slated that the first two will be Angels of Death, detailing all your Marine chapters and where this new hover-tank is likely to be, and Chaos Legions for all the different forms of heresy.

Also, it means GW gets to sell you the same rules twice.

[DaedalusMkV]

So that repulsor tank wasn't in the leaked army books. Is that evidence that the leaked books are not the final ones, or just that they made the repulsor too late to add it in?

The article introducing it implies that it won't be part of the initial release, but rather show up at some point in the future. They've confirmed that Chapter Approved is coming back as a periodical release to give rules to everything they release. Presumably, the Repulsor will have rules in the first Chapter Approved book. Speaking of the Repulsor... I don't know what's up with that thing. It looks like somebody kitbashed a Land Raider with two Land Speeders and a Predator turret.

[Theodoric]

Also, it means GW gets to sell you the same rules twice.

Yup. Though some are going to be around for much longer than others, I think. Imperium 2's probably not going to be fully supplanted for a few years, as are the Xenos ones most likely.
I'd bet Angels of Death's not going to have the full rules for every possible power-armoured Space Marine army (Grey Knights, Deathwatch, etc.) and Daemon players probably will get a lot of use from their index as well.

The article introducing it implies that it won't be part of the initial release, but rather show up at some point in the future. They've confirmed that Chapter Approved is coming back as a periodical release to give rules to everything they release. Presumably, the Repulsor will have rules in the first Chapter Approved book. Speaking of the Repulsor... I don't know what's up with that thing. It looks like somebody kitbashed a Land Raider with two Land Speeders and a Predator turret.

I'd rather think they're going to use it for other sorts of additional supplements; new campaign rules, supplements etc. Things that normally wouldn't merit a full release on their own, that sort of thing. The Community page says 'expanding your gaming options' not 'give you all the rules we published previous'.

[Wraith]

So, I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this question, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Why is there no Sisters of Battle Army Building Guide?

There *was* one, but it was from two editions ago when the Sisters of Battle Codex was given away for free over two issues of White Dwarf. So much has changed since then, and so few people play as that army (I'm not aware of anyone on GitP who does as their primary - or even secondary, or tertiary? - army, except perhaps Zorg?) that it's hard to give a "professional" opinion of their tactics.

UNOFFICIALLY, their tactics are so simple ("spam Exorcists and cram in as many Inquisitors from an Allied codex as you can") that it really didn't warrant a full update, even if someone was willing to go out and drop $500 on thirty metal minis.

[Brookshw]

Three biovores is 108pts, and deal MWs at 48" range. Instead of missing they leave behind bombs that get in the way of enemy movement, and either deal more MWs later or use up enemy firepower to remove. They're great. Anti-horde has never been a problem for Tyranids, everything they have can do it in CC if they need to.

Facts is facts, though leaving behind mines isn't new and we get less of them now (the loss of scatter rules wont be missed). However nid anti-horde killing at range is pretty weak, especially w/ the change to the Mawloc (depending how you considered them before). I don't know what to tell you here, I would rather have retained more of an anti-infantry capacity for biovores, other people may prefer the MW. But w/ hive commander & Trygon it may be that the MW are in fact a better capacity. We'll see.

(I'm not aware of anyone on GitP who does as their primary - or even secondary, or tertiary? - army,

Pretty sure Blackhawk has a secondary, and doesn't Darius have about 1k points in them?

[Renegade Paladin]

That....doesnt make any sense. Why would they do that? Hell Chimeras even have that Las Array thing.

They still have the lasgun arrays, but no other fire points. The days of drive-by melta are no more.

[Alex Knight]

I'm thinking Doomsday Arks might be the big hit for Necron lists. Long range multi damage, resistant to multi damage with QS, able to shoot down blobs or big targets with relatively equal prowess.

The downside may be the durability. T6 14W 4+ is relatively squishy, since it can be plinked down with high strength low damage quite easily, but with Living Metal you can reduce that a bit.

And stick a Spyder behind it for repairs. :)

[Blackhawk748]

The purpose of this is (in theory) to force Infantry to get out of transports if they want to do stuff. But with the inability to do so after the transport moved, that's going to be much trickier to do successfully. Expect infantry that want to get close to you to teleport/jump-pack/drop-pod at you instead.

As a note, one vehicle retained the ability to drop off troops during a move: the Valkyrie. They have to drop the regulation 9" away from enemies (and if it moved more than 20" a sixth of them die instantly), but other than that it's a normal disembark they can then move/charge/etc as normal.

Thats rather dumb, as Chimeras are supposed to be mobile bunkers, though i guess they still kinda can be.

Also the way disembarkation works now is weird and makes me glad i was always infantry heavy.

Not to mention that it can only be used once a turn.

I'd like to see orks get their own drop pods, but not drop pods exactly, rather than release a model GW should tell you to go get a rock from your garden or somewhere and use that instead, cause, ya know, orks. Painting it red is optional.

The worst part is, is that Orks have been using Roks as drop pods in fluff for years and still nothing. Though i guess its not as bad as Chaos loosing all their Razobacks and Land Speeders somewhere.

Space Marines still have access to meltabombs - but only on assault sergeants IIRC.

EDIT: Chunks of falling Space Hulks would be an excellent reason for Ork "Drop Pods", though they should be dirt cheap, do absolutely nothing other than hit the ground, and have a chance of killing their passengers horribly. Also, it seems like the 9" rule is the official deep strike thing now, but Ork Rock Pods would almost need to scatter, and to act as a large blast (ie d6 hits) on whatever they land on. Would be a lot of fun.

I usually hate the "may kill you when you use it" stuff, but if it was dirt cheap id be all for it, mostly cuz i could kill the enemy with it too

WHY IS THERE A FLYING LAND RAIDER NOW!?

You know what? ...Fine.

Wut.... GW I TOLD YOU TO STOP SMOKING CRACK!!!

There *was* one, but it was from two editions ago when the Sisters of Battle Codex was given away for free over two issues of White Dwarf. So much has changed since then, and so few people play as that army (I'm not aware of anyone on GitP who does as their primary - or even secondary, or tertiary? - army, except perhaps Zorg?) that it's hard to give a "professional" opinion of their tactics.

UNOFFICIALLY, their tactics are so simple ("spam Exorcists and cram in as many Inquisitors from an Allied codex as you can") that it really didn't warrant a full update, even if someone was willing to go out and drop $500 on thirty metal minis.

SoB are my secondary army, hell technically Primary now, cuz the Orks and Tzeentch Daemons have been retired for near the eniterty of 7th, my Death Guard where for Heralds of Ruin only, and im a lazy bastard and havent finished putting my Ad Mech army together

Pretty sure Blackhawk has a secondary, and doesn't Darius have about 1k points in them?

My Dude.

They still have the lasgun arrays, but no other fire points. The days of drive-by melta are no more.

I feel for you, i'll need to see but im fairly certain Orks still can, which is a freakin blessing.

[lord_khaine]

The worst part is, is that Orks have been using Roks as drop pods in fluff for years and still nothing. Though i guess its not as bad as Chaos loosing all their Razobacks and Land Speeders somewhere.

That or alternatively give them a catapult.. that is kinda orky, flinging boys at enemy fortifications

Wut.... GW I TOLD YOU TO STOP SMOKING CRACK!!!

It is extremely stupid, and more than a touch annoying that GW constantly hands out the toys of other factions to their poster boys..

[DataNinja]

It is extremely stupid, and more than a touch annoying that GW constantly hands out the toys of other factions to their poster boys..

I mean, technically I can see where it could come from, fluffwise. I remember reading in the White Dwarf announcing the plastic Land Raider kit (so, yes, old) that both the Land Raider and Land Speeder were invented by the tech-magos Arkhos Land (yes, I know, retro-justification naming ). So, in theory, I could see someone combining both his designs.

Of course, that sort of justification would make entirely too much sense.


Rules-wise, yeah, it is annoying. The whole shtick of Eldar and Tau vehicles is "hover", and they've got nothing near the strength/durability of a Land Raider (especially with the whole Lance thing meaning that they would never have one before, since why have Armour above 12 when it was negated by their own technology? Speed and/or forcefields all the way). And who wants to bet that it'll be faster than a Monolith?

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Re: Repulsor.

I think the logic is that some kid picking up Space Marines might see that other factions have hover tanks and gets all whiny about his army not having any so GW decides that's simply not acceptable my £riend$

Whatever. Best we can hope for is points balance at this point. Which by the sounds of it seems doubtful

[Blackhawk748]

Re: Repulsor.

I think the logic is that some kid picking up Space Marines might see that other factions have hover tanks and gets all whiny about his army not having any so GW decides that's simply not acceptable my £riend$

Whatever. Best we can hope for is points balance at this point. Which by the sounds of it seems doubtful

I dont care if some little ten year old gets whiny. Each faction is supposed to have their own identity and at the rate they are going Space Marines will be able to do everything soon and as such there will be no point in playing anything else.