Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I dont care if some little ten year old gets whiny. Each faction is supposed to have their own identity and at the rate they are going Space Marines will be able to do everything soon and as such there will be no point in playing anything else.

Indeed. I was actually driving towards the same point but guess I didn't communicate it well enough.

I guess the aesthetic is still a factor. If you dig that Eldar style or Tau design philosophy you're not going to be swayed by a floating pseudo-gothic brick.

I was actually waiting for SM to get their own fluff-justified Monstrous Creature. I mean we already have cyberwoofs and woof riders/chariots.

[Blackhawk748]

Indeed. I was actually driving towards the same point but guess I didn't communicate it well enough.

I guess the aesthetic is still a factor. If you dig that Eldar style or Tau design philosophy you're not going to be swayed by a floating pseudo-gothic brick.

I was actually waiting for SM to get their own fluff-justified Monstrous Creature. I mean we already have cyberwoofs and woof riders/chariots.

Its called the Dreadknight and its fluff justification is stupid "Dreadnaughts where to shor to fight Greater Daemons, so we made this baby carrier" isntead of, you know, just making a Dreadnaught taller.

Also i was pretty sure thats what you meant, i was just being more acidic about it, because i have bad memories of Draigo and Friends.

[Renegade Paladin]

Hey. Hey guys.

Spoiler: Victory lies with the biggest guns.

Show

[Brookshw]

Hey. Hey guys.

Spoiler: Victory lies with the biggest guns.

Show

Basilisk eat your heart out! Pics when you're done please.

Btw, how do you feel about the guard changes in 8e?

[Renegade Paladin]

Basilisk eat your heart out! Pics when you're done please.

Btw, how do you feel about the guard changes in 8e?

Well, it'll have to Count As an Earthshaker artillery carriage.

As for the changes, I've only lightly skimmed them so far. I don't read in digital very well; I won't really dive in until I have the books in my hands. I'm less than pleased about melta veterans in Chimeras becoming useless, I'll tell you that, and storm troopers in Troops and veterans in Elites doesn't make a lot of sense. Taking carapace armor from veterans and command squads is pants.

However:

Volcano cannon: 120", Heavy d6, S16, AP -5, 2d6 damage. Re-rolls failed Wound rolls against units with the Titanic keyword.

[Blackhawk748]

Hey. Hey guys.

Spoiler: Victory lies with the biggest guns.

Show

I love it, makes me wish Siege of Vraks was updated.

Well, it'll have to Count As an Earthshaker artillery carriage.

As for the changes, I've only lightly skimmed them so far. I don't read in digital very well; I won't really dive in until I have the books in my hands. I'm less than pleased about melta veterans in Chimeras becoming useless, I'll tell you that, and storm troopers in Troops and veterans in Elites doesn't make a lot of sense. Taking carapace armor from veterans and command squads is pants.

Wait....what?? Then how the hell do you play Catachan?

[Renegade Paladin]

Catachan don't take carapace anyway (it was the doctrine that Harker's Hellraisers weren't allowed to take, after all), but it does make life more difficult for Cadians. Veterans don't have doctrines anymore, and command squads have lost the options for both carapace armor and camo cloaks.

[Blackhawk748]

Catachan don't take carapace anyway (it was the doctrine that Harker's Hellraisers weren't allowed to take, after all), but it does make life more difficult for Cadians. Veterans don't have doctrines anymore, and command squads have lost the options for both carapace armor and camo cloaks.

Ouch.

ALso a buddy just read through the Necrons leaks, and we just realized that Reanimation Protocols let you keep trying, every turn, until the unit is completely destroyed. Dear Lord, Necrons apparently stole all of the Ork durability.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Ouch.

ALso a buddy just read through the Necrons leaks, and we just realized that Reanimation Protocols let you keep trying, every turn, until the unit is completely destroyed. Dear Lord, Necrons apparently stole all of the Ork durability.

I'm racking my brain, but I can't for the life of me remember if that's how the 3rd Edition Necrons did it. I believe it was a 4+, but negated by instant death and 3rd Ed power weapons. Are cron Warriors rocking 3+ or 4+ armor these days?

[LeSwordfish]

I'm racking my brain, but I can't for the life of me remember if that's how the 3rd Edition Necrons did it. I believe it was a 4+, but negated by instant death and 3rd Ed power weapons. Are cron Warriors rocking 3+ or 4+ armor these days?

I believe so, though it might have been 5+?

----

As for the new grav-tank, I really don't know what to say if "marines get all the cool new toys" is still an issue for you.

[Drasius]

Biovores are amazing. They're no exocrines but they do something unique rather than just being less points efficient versions of their big brothers.
Questionable maths

Krak used to do a lot more than that to warriors since they lost 3 wounds for every hit and warriors had a 4+ armour. I can't recall if the thrope used to give stealth or shrouded, but the wounds vs bolters don't look right either...

So, I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this question, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Why is there no Sisters of Battle Army Building Guide?

Because now it's 8th and we haven't had enough games yet? As for 7th, MSU sisters with double special weapon (flamer or melta) in immos or rhinos, 3 units of doms in immos with meltas on everything and either 3x exos or 2x exos and 1x heavy bolter rets. Rinse and repeat until at points limit, maybe add an IK if you're feeling saucy.

WHY IS THERE A FLYING LAND RAIDER NOW!?

You know what? ...Fine.

As an homage that's disgusting! to the old grav rhino scatchbuild?

There *was* one, but it was from two editions ago when the Sisters of Battle Codex was given away for free over two issues of White Dwarf. So much has changed since then, and so few people play as that army (I'm not aware of anyone on GitP who does as their primary - or even secondary, or tertiary? - army, except perhaps Zorg?) that it's hard to give a "professional" opinion of their tactics.

UNOFFICIALLY, their tactics are so simple ("spam Exorcists and cram in as many Inquisitors from an Allied codex as you can") that it really didn't warrant a full update, even if someone was willing to go out and drop $500 on thirty metal minis.

Close enough. The IK guide has also been missing for a couple of threads too, not that it matters anymore.

Pretty sure Blackhawk has a secondary, and doesn't Darius have about 1k points in them?

I've got ~1500 points of SoB as a tertiary army and there's 3 other guys in Cairns who run SoB (though only 2 with any regularity)

[lord_khaine]

However:

Volcano cannon: 120", Heavy d6, S16, AP -5, 2d6 damage. Re-rolls failed Wound rolls against units with the Titanic keyword.

That is honestly disgusting.. I cant really see any single target, Titanic or not, that will survive getting that pointed towards them.

As for the new grav-tank, I really don't know what to say if "marines get all the cool new toys" is still an issue for you.

I think its perhaps this time that they are stealing them from others..

[DaedalusMkV]

That is honestly disgusting.. I cant really see any single target, Titanic or not, that will survive getting that pointed towards them.

I can think of a whole bunch. Starting with Riptides who Nova Shielded, moving on through Ghostkeels who basically won't get hit by it in the first place since it only hits them on a 6, and continuing to everything with Quantum Shielding, which laughs and automatically bounces anything that does 7 or more Wounds, and probably bounces every single Wound the Cannon causes.

It's dramatically lethal, yes. Will nearly always kill a Leman Russ or similar in one shot. Still not guaranteed against high-Wound targets with good Invulnerables or anything with a decent To Hit penalty.

[lord_khaine]

Alright fair enough, Quantum shielding in itself is kinda strange, and will most likely force a lot of armies to diversify just a little bit of their heavy weapons.

[Voidhawk]

ALso a buddy just read through the Necrons leaks, and we just realized that Reanimation Protocols let you keep trying, every turn, until the unit is completely destroyed. Dear Lord, Necrons apparently stole all of the Ork durability.

The change to Reanimation is mostly a curse, because you take it in the movement phase and how morale works. It depends what points you're playing at, and how much the opponent can focus fire.

Imagine a blob of 20 Warriors and a Cryptek being shot at, in three cases in both 7th and 8th: taking 10 unsaved wounds, less than 10, and more than 10. In both editions they've got Ld10 and 4+ reanimation.

If you take 10 wounds, in 7th you reanimate 5 and end with 15 remaining. But in 8th you first lose another d6(3.5) to morale, and then reanimate around 6.75 getting you to roughly 13 remaining. In future turns you then have the possibility at getting the other 7 back, but your opponent will first have a chance to kill the unit and deny you that ability.

If you take less than 10 wounds in 8th morale stops being such a problem, you reanimate about the same number as 7th, and then in further turns you have the option of bonus reanimation.

But now consider if they kill more than 10. Morale dictates that each wound over your Ld value is effectively worth 2. This means if you take 13 casualties, then losing another d6+3 has a 50% chance to wipe the unit entirely before you even get to roll Reanimation! Compared to 7th ed, where 13 wounds would have 6.5 saved and leave you with 13.5 warriors. And if you take 15 wounds in 8th the last 5 self destruct instantly, whereas in 7th about 7.5 would save and leave you with a unit of 12.

To repeat that last scenario: if you take 15 wounds in 7th you lose 8 warriors. In 8th, you lose all 20.

So, in small points games where the opponent might not be able to kill 20 15 in one turn, it's gotten better. But if your opponent can focus you down (and if they're smart they will) then it's far, far worse. For this reason I think Immortals are going to be go-to troops again: they have better saves so the chance of getting to roll reanimation at all is higher, Ld10 with a 10-or-less squad is effectively fearless, and squads of 5 can fill minimum-troops while you focus on the better units elsewhere.

[Brookshw]

So a number of units are now -1 to hit (e.g. Lictors), and overwatch only hits on a 6. Does that then mean you need a 7 to hit such units, making them effectively immune to any overwatch requiring a hit roll? Maybe its too early for this question?

[Drasius]

So a number of units are now -1 to hit (e.g. Lictors), and overwatch only hits on a 6. Does that then mean you need a 7 to hit such units, making them effectively immune to any overwatch requiring a hit roll? Maybe its too early for this question?

- Certain weapons auto-hit (ie flamers)
- If -1's to hit apply to overwatch, then so will +1's, so many characters will have the ability to effectively cancel out their malus
- Being hit on 6's for overwatch when you are already moderately durable multiwound renders units effectively immune regardless
- Most Tyranid stuff isn't going to give 2 feeder tendrils about overwatch anyway. Either they've got enough wounds on their profile to soak it or they are expendable enough to soak it. The only things that should ever care about overwatch are low toughness (ie T3) bad save units that need to assault - So wyches, gaunts, 'nettes, 'letters and other chaff. Given that lictors have a solid handful of wounds and an armour save that no longer gets ignored by most guns, I'm not sure why they would really care in the first place.

Beyond that, given that the basic systems appear to be a 90% cut and paste of AoS, then yes, sometimes hitting on 7's (ie impossible without external bonii) will be a thing and I have no doubt that it will suck just as much as facing death armies that stack -ve to hit modifiers to the point where they can't be hit by anything but the beatstick heros or super buffed elite combat units, and even then, only on 6's.

[Requizen]

The change to Reanimation is mostly a curse, because you take it in the movement phase and how morale works. It depends what points you're playing at, and how much the opponent can focus fire.

Imagine a blob of 20 Warriors and a Cryptek being shot at, in three cases in both 7th and 8th: taking 10 unsaved wounds, less than 10, and more than 10. In both editions they've got Ld10 and 4+ reanimation.

If you take 10 wounds, in 7th you reanimate 5 and end with 15 remaining. But in 8th you first lose another d6(3.5) to morale, and then reanimate around 6.75 getting you to roughly 13 remaining. In future turns you then have the possibility at getting the other 7 back, but your opponent will first have a chance to kill the unit and deny you that ability.

If you take less than 10 wounds in 8th morale stops being such a problem, you reanimate about the same number as 7th, and then in further turns you have the option of bonus reanimation.

But now consider if they kill more than 10. Morale dictates that each wound over your Ld value is effectively worth 2. This means if you take 13 casualties, then losing another d6+3 has a 50% chance to wipe the unit entirely before you even get to roll Reanimation! Compared to 7th ed, where 13 wounds would have 6.5 saved and leave you with 13.5 warriors. And if you take 15 wounds in 8th the last 5 self destruct instantly, whereas in 7th about 7.5 would save and leave you with a unit of 12.

To repeat that last scenario: if you take 15 wounds in 7th you lose 8 warriors. In 8th, you lose all 20.

So, in small points games where the opponent might not be able to kill 20 15 in one turn, it's gotten better. But if your opponent can focus you down (and if they're smart they will) then it's far, far worse. For this reason I think Immortals are going to be go-to troops again: they have better saves so the chance of getting to roll reanimation at all is higher, Ld10 with a 10-or-less squad is effectively fearless, and squads of 5 can fill minimum-troops while you focus on the better units elsewhere.

While this is all technically true, it doesn't really consider practicality. To be dealing 10 wounds to Warriors through 4+/5++ takes a pretty reasonable amount of shooting and focus fire. You can no longer split up shooting against Necrons and whittle down multiple units at a time, otherwise they'll all start regenning.

For the Necron Player, if I'm running Silver Tide style and my opponent puts a bunch of shots into a unit of Warriors, I feel fine about that. We get really cheap Invulns on all our Infantry and better than average weapons.

We'll have to wait to see what lists look like, because unless one has read every single army and has been crunching various lists since day of leaks, nobody really knows what various army metas look like. Because they sure don't look like 7th, I'll tell you that.

[Brookshw]

Given that lictors have a solid handful of wounds and an armour save that no longer gets ignored by most guns, I'm not sure why they would really care in the first place.

Eh, so far the reports for lictors are a bit underwhelming (largely given their unit size of 1). But they're just an example to confirm the rules application. Looks like it's an additional benefit for venomthropes so that's a bigger plus, and I'm sure other factions will have their own things.

[Cheesegear]

We'll have to wait to see what lists look like, because unless one has read every single army and has been crunching various lists since day of leaks, nobody really knows what various army metas look like. Because they sure don't look like 7th, I'll tell you that.

A mix between 4th Ed. and 5th Ed. style armies.
Maelstrom is still definitely a thing, which means that Movement/Infiltrate/Deep Strike are still definitely things that you want. No, you're not going to see 9+ Razorbacks. But you should certainly expect to see 4-6, especially if they're packing Assault Cannons or Heavy Flamers.

1st Turn Charges are going to be brutalitops (4th Ed.), and the only way you're going to survive them is by having Transports and your squad having 10 extra Wounds so that it doesn't die (5th/7th).

We've had the leaks for a whole week. Come on.

[LeSwordfish]

My main question is: Is my Jetbike Eldar army going to still be no fun to play against?

[Requizen]

A mix between 4th Ed. and 5th Ed. style armies.
Maelstrom is still definitely a thing, which means that Movement/Infiltrate/Deep Strike are still definitely things that you want. No, you're not going to see 9+ Razorbacks. But you should certainly expect to see 4-6, especially if they're packing Assault Cannons or Heavy Flamers.

1st Turn Charges are going to be brutalitops (4th Ed.), and the only way you're going to survive them is by having Transports and your squad having 10 extra Wounds so that it doesn't die (5th/7th).

We've had the leaks for a whole week. Come on.

That's fine to say and all, but that doesn't really say anything concrete. "4+ Razorbacks" might describe SM armies, but it doesn't say anything about Daemons or Nids (who don't have transports at all), Orks (who are going to want to bring mass dudes and might not fit into vehicles), Necrons (whose only vehicle is extremely expensive and only carries one unit type), or GK (who don't particularly want to stuff Terminators or Dreadknights into a vehicle).

The meta is going to be a bit more complex than having vehicles and bringing some deep strike. Unit types are more wildly different than they were in 6th/7th. Multi-damage weapons are great against Monsters and Vehicles, but if suddenly people aren't bringing them and are only bringing mobile/DSing Infantry, the meta shifts to more mass fire low damage weapons. Which in turn swings it back to Monsters and Vehicles. It'll settle somewhere in the middle, probably, or you'll end up with some armies that do one, some that do another, and some that try to combat both.

Writing a TAC list expecting to see mass transport and then going to a tournament to find out that the top dogs are GSC or Orks is probably no longer TAC.

Yes, Maelstrom being a thing means you'll need mobility, but in my Necron army that can appear as Monoliths, Wraiths, Flayed Ones/Death Marks DSing, Tomb Blades, or Destroyers, all of which fill different roles and are designed to fight different metas, so it'll take some time to see what's good and what beats good things. Claiming to know that right now is a bit presumptuous.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm racking my brain, but I can't for the life of me remember if that's how the 3rd Edition Necrons did it. I believe it was a 4+, but negated by instant death and 3rd Ed power weapons. Are cron Warriors rocking 3+ or 4+ armor these days?

In 3rd (and 4th ed) you couldnt keep trying in subsequent turns, if you failed, you failed. Now you just keep trying.

And Warriors have a 4+ and RP works on a 5+

[Requizen]

In 3rd (and 4th ed) you couldnt keep trying in subsequent turns, if you failed, you failed. Now you just keep trying.

And Warriors have a 4+ and RP works on a 5+

Crypteks give nearby Infantry a 4+ RP and 5++ against shooting (Orikan's is just a flat 5++), so expect to see one, maybe 2, in any Infantry heavy list. They're slow though, so less so with Destroyers, Wraiths, or Tomb Blades.

[Blackhawk748]

Crypteks give nearby Infantry a 4+ RP and 5++ against shooting (Orikan's is just a flat 5++), so expect to see one, maybe 2, in any Infantry heavy list. They're slow though, so less so with Destroyers, Wraiths, or Tomb Blades.

When me and my buddy went over it this is what he figured the lists this Ed would look like:

1: Silver Legion
2: Monolith Spam
3: The Pirate Fleet
4: Cron Air

I mostly agree. I've got a strong feeling that its gonna be mostly Silver Legion backed by a Monolith or two, mostly because of how durable Necrons can be.

[Requizen]

When me and my buddy went over it this is what he figured the lists this Ed would look like:

1: Silver Legion
2: Monolith Spam
3: The Pirate Fleet
4: Cron Air

I mostly agree. I've got a strong feeling that its gonna be mostly Silver Legion backed by a Monolith or two, mostly because of how durable Necrons can be.

I definitely have enough dudes to run Silver Tide, but you really need multi damage punch. Gauss being super good with AP is nice but you'll need to put down big things fast. Heavy Destroyers will likely play a big role, but for melee the C'tan and Lychguard can cut through big things decently. Much like last edition, the lack of cheapish Melta/Las means taking down big models is a bit of a sore spot, but now the Doomsday Ark and Doom Scythe might be worth taking.

[Blackhawk748]

I definitely have enough dudes to run Silver Tide, but you really need multi damage punch. Gauss being super good with AP is nice but you'll need to put down big things fast. Heavy Destroyers will likely play a big role, but for melee the C'tan and Lychguard can cut through big things decently. Much like last edition, the lack of cheapish Melta/Las means taking down big models is a bit of a sore spot, but now the Doomsday Ark and Doom Scythe might be worth taking.

Well old Silver Legion (and im running off of a 8 year old memory here) was primarily Warriors with some Immortals sprinkled in, maybe a few Destroyers and usually 1 Monolith. Then again Crons didnt have anywhere near the number of units they now have, so it'd probably look more like this:

All leftover points in Warriors
1 or 2 squads of Tesla Immortals (to hang by the Overlord)
Some Destroyers
A Triarch Stalker
A monolith or a few Doomsday Arks

Its still a ton of Metal Zombies footslogging, but you can at least swap around some stuff now.

[Tvtyrant]

I think Silvertide vs. Termagaunt/tervigon spam is going to be the most grinding matchup in the games history. Giant walls just recycling themselves until someone runs out.

[lord_khaine]

That is kinda hilarious to think about. But kinda how the Tyranid/Necron matchup is suposed to go i think.

All the same, 4+ RR is going to be a pain. Imagine shooting a 20 man unit down to 1 lonely survivor, and then fail to finish him off? Next round there are 10 of the buggers again.

[Bobby Baratheon]

So a number of units are now -1 to hit (e.g. Lictors), and overwatch only hits on a 6. Does that then mean you need a 7 to hit such units, making them effectively immune to any overwatch requiring a hit roll? Maybe its too early for this question?

The relevant section of the leaked rules said that you always hit on a 6, regardless of "any modifiers". So, I would imagine that includes negative modifiers, so you're still hitting on a six.

EDIT: Separate note: Am I correct in my reading of the new rules that you can charge after shooting with any weapon, making the respective benefits of assault weapons being able to advance and shoot and of pistols to shoot in melee? That might be a small game changer for my list that I've been working on. 5 man tactical squads with a plasma gun and a sarge with power weapon/plasma pistol is very cheap and can hurt you via shooting or melee (what with the power weapon and the pistol). Only 89 points, in fact. Add in a Razorback with a twin assault cannon and you've got a nasty little unit for less than 200 points.