Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[Brookshw]

The relevant section of the leaked rules said that you always hit on a 6, regardless of "any modifiers". So, I would imagine that includes negative modifiers, so you're still hitting on a six.

Nice catch! Seems sensible.

[Cheesegear]

That's fine to say and all, but that doesn't really say anything concrete.

Yes it does.
"What does it take to win?"
Start valuing units based on how they help you win, and that's how you know what's going to be good.
Oh, do you mean I have to wait for someone to net list for me? Well...Sure, if I wasn't able to think for myself.

doesn't say anything about Daemons or Nids (who don't have transports at all)

Daemons are hurting.
'Nids will be the ones doing the first turn Charging. That's the list you have to defend against.

Orks (who are going to want to bring mass dudes and might not fit into vehicles)

Orks, too.

Necrons (whose only vehicle is extremely expensive and only carries one unit type), or GK (who don't particularly want to stuff Terminators or Dreadknights into a vehicle).

Yeah, and doesn't it suck to be Necrons and Grey Knights right now?
(Did you notice a whole bunch of people selling off their Necrons this week? I did.)

The meta is going to be a bit more complex than having vehicles and bringing some deep strike.

Read the Missions.

Writing a TAC list expecting to see mass transport

TAC lists can't exist. Just like they didn't exist in 7th. The game is too big. Find the strategies to win, then either build that list, or build a list that defends against it.
The strategy to win is going to be first turn charging, and Movement.

Claiming to know that right now is a bit presumptuous.

I don't know what's right. But I know how the game works. So I can at least value units based on what it takes to win. If I didn't understand core concepts, I wouldn't be writing Guides.

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah, and doesn't it suck to be Necrons and Grey Knights right now?
(Did you notice a whole bunch of people selling off their Necrons this week? I did.)

Why would it suck to be Crons right now? They have some of the highest AP i've seen so far and RP works great for single wound models now (not so much for the multis) and their vehicles self heal.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Silver Tide does seem to be in a very good place this edition, though perhaps its too early to tell. Silver Tide would suck horribly in Maelstrom, so there's that too I suppose.

[Cheesegear]

Silver Tide would suck horribly in Maelstrom, so there's that too I suppose.

Since I wont be playing Eternal War...Ever. There's that.

[Requizen]

Yes it does.
"What does it take to win?"
Start valuing units based on how they help you win, and that's how you know what's going to be good.
Oh, do you mean I have to wait for someone to net list for me? Well...Sure, if I wasn't able to think for myself.

I don't know what's right. But I know how the game works. So I can at least value units based on what it takes to win. If I didn't understand core concepts, I wouldn't be writing Guides.

Mmmm, maybe I'm a bit too cautious, but I'm just of the opinion that knowing mobility and defending against xyz is good doesn't mean you know what the battlefield is going to look like. Like yes, obviously being able to get to objectives, kill priority targets, and recognize/counter threats is the name of the game - that's just kind of basic strategy and tactics.

But look. For my army there are at least 5 or 6 really good ways to get mobility into the army, and they all have their own ups and downs. I'm more talking about the subtleties of the armies rather than the overall idea of "what does it take to win games". Am I better served by bringing lots of DSing Flayed Ones/Deathmarks? Or am I better of going for Monoliths popping out Troops all over the board? More along the lines of "right, now that we have the shape of things, time to start slotting in puzzle pieces until we find what fits".

Obviously you know what you're talking about, but I'm just saying knowing what is good in an ethereal sense is different from knowing what units/combos/builds are good in a practical point of view. Not necessarily netlisting, but just knowing that unit A is good to bring to the table just based on what's currently happening.

Yeah, and doesn't it suck to be Necrons and Grey Knights right now?
(Did you notice a whole bunch of people selling off their Necrons this week? I did.)

By kneejerkers maybe, but everyone I've talked to who tried to make Crons work all through 7th realize that we're way better off now than we were before, by a pretty decent amount.

[Cheesegear]

By kneejerkers maybe, but everyone I've talked to who tried to make Crons work all through 7th realize that we're way better off now than we were before, by a pretty decent amount.

...Compared to who? 7th Ed. Necrons? Who have no impact on an 8th Ed. game?

Nearly every army 'got better'. If everyone is better, no-one is. The more accurate term would be 'made usable'. As I've implied, just because a unit is usable, doesn't mean it will help you win games. Your analogy is correct, we know - or I, at least - know what the puzzle looks like. Except that GW has given me a box with the pieces to four different puzzles, which means that only a quarter of the pieces are of any use to me. But, since I know what the puzzle is supposed to be, I can at least have an idea of what to look for.

I already know that Da Jump with Meganobz ("Get Nobbed." is a future meme for sure) is going to annihilate armies that are not prepared for it. I can read. Part of that being, that 'Jump is movement. The thing that comes after, just helps you push someone off an Objective real hard...Oh, Movement and Objective grabbing? ...That's...The game...Isn't it? If 'Jumping Meganobz (or 30 Boyz, I guess) have decided that they want an Objective, how do you stop them (i.e; Defend against it)?

[Blackhawk748]

I already know that Da Jump with Meganobz ("Get Nobbed." is a future meme for sure) is going to annihilate armies that are not prepared for it. I can read. Part of that being, that 'Jump is movement. The thing that comes after, just helps you push someone off an Objective real hard...Oh, Movement and Objective grabbing? ...That's...The game...Isn't it? If 'Jumping Meganobz (or 30 Boyz, I guess) have decided that they want an Objective, how do you stop them (i.e; Defend against it)?

Snipe the Weirdboy before he gets his power off as he doesnt have a save.

[Requizen]

...Compared to who? 7th Ed. Necrons? Who have no impact on an 8th Ed. game?

Nearly every army 'got better'. If everyone is better, no-one is. The more accurate term would be 'made usable'. As I've implied, just because a unit is usable, doesn't mean it will help you win games. Your analogy is correct, we know - or I, at least - know what the puzzle looks like. Except that GW has given me a box with the pieces to four different puzzles, which means that only a quarter of the pieces are of any use to me. But, since I know what the puzzle is supposed to be, I can at least have an idea of what to look for.

I already know that Da Jump with Meganobz ("Get Nobbed." is a future meme for sure) is going to annihilate armies that are not prepared for it. I can read. Part of that being, that 'Jump is movement. The thing that comes after, just helps you push someone off an Objective real hard...Oh, Movement and Objective grabbing? ...That's...The game...Isn't it? If 'Jumping Meganobz (or 30 Boyz, I guess) have decided that they want an Objective, how do you stop them (i.e; Defend against it)?

Snipe the Weirdboy before he gets his power off as he doesnt have a save.

Case in point, a bit.

What do I, as Necrons, bring to threaten backfield objectives? Night Scythes/Monoliths to teleport stuff in? Wraiths/Tomb Blades/Praetorians to just run back there? Flayed Ones to pop up and scare people? What about Deathmarks to drop in?

Are Deathmarks good? Well, their weapon sucks as a generalist weapon - just Rapid Fire, S4 AP0. But they're Snipers and deal MWs on 6s. Which means that they're a bit rubbish if the game doesn't go towards foot Characters that need to die, and instead goes towards minimal characters or big W10+ characters that need D>1 to kill. But, if the game is about Wierdnobz bopping people around the table, or Chaplains buffing dudes around them, or if the game goes towards everyone using some sort of DS, then I'm bringing 15-20 Deathmarks.

Maybe for Space Marines, it's already cut and clear which units are trash at winning the game and which units are auto-includes, but not so for everyone, unless I'm just way worse than I think I am. Which is always possible.

[Drasius]

Case in point, a bit.

What do I, as Necrons, bring to threaten backfield objectives? Night Scythes/Monoliths to teleport stuff in? Wraiths/Tomb Blades/Praetorians to just run back there? Flayed Ones to pop up and scare people? What about Deathmarks to drop in?

Are Deathmarks good? Well, their weapon sucks as a generalist weapon - just Rapid Fire, S4 AP0. But they're Snipers and deal MWs on 6s. Which means that they're a bit rubbish if the game doesn't go towards foot Characters that need to die, and instead goes towards minimal characters or big W10+ characters that need D>1 to kill. But, if the game is about Wierdnobz bopping people around the table, or Chaplains buffing dudes around them, or if the game goes towards everyone using some sort of DS, then I'm bringing 15-20 Deathmarks.

Maybe for Space Marines, it's already cut and clear which units are trash at winning the game and which units are auto-includes, but not so for everyone, unless I'm just way worse than I think I am. Which is always possible.

Play to your meta instead of the meta. Doesn't matter if [X] is good is nobody you play against ever brings [X] (unless you're doing a bunch of non-local tournaments).

Volume of mid/high str fire is still going to be the business, high movement is still going to win games and elite units are still going to get pumped. The fact that characters have a bunch of wounds now generally means they're safer and given the various bubbles the hand out and the DS rules means it's snipers or melee to take them out. Since you're not going to be pumping most characters in a single round, even with 2 deathmark squads (you won't be able to be in rapid-fire range if your opponent has any idea of what they can do, so 20 shots from 2 full squads, 13ish hits, 2ish mortal wounds and 4ish ap0 saves means that you're looking at ~3-4 wounds give or take) , I'd say they're interesting choices and maybe a counter against some things but a bit meh overall, unless you can consistently roll a bunch of 6's.

Given that 8th is basically AoS with a fancy new hat, I expect a fairly sizable focus on characters since that's what I've generally seen in AoS and there they can easily be taken out with the plethora of d6 mortal wound generators. Just like 7th though, eternal war and maelstrom are going to be 2 very different beasts and an EW list isn't going to be very good at Maelstrom unless we have eldar vs orks levels of imbalance, which I don't believe is quite the case so far.

At the end of the day, you need to have your dudes on objectives to win in most of the missions, regardless of which format, so unless something has the mobility to get there in a timely fashion, the ability to resist an enemy trying to push them off or are cheap enough to use as screens for killy units that have minimal defenses, then you should be thinking hard about why you're taking them. In many ways, nothing has changed about building an army list from 7th, you still need to ask yourself the same questions:
- How do I deal with hoardes?
- How do I deal with Melee?
- How do I deal with MC's and vehicles T7/8 10+ W, 3+ save models?
- How do I deal with 2+ saves?
- How do I deal with fast moving threats?
- How do I deal with DS/Outflank?
- How do I hold Objectives?
- How do I stop my opponent holding objectives?

The answers to the questions may have changed, but the questions are still effectively the same as they were a month ago, except that non IK/WK/thundercav melee is an actual threat again.

[Bobby Baratheon]

After looking at the SM leaks, I've made a (very) tentative list for my Dark Angels. My meta's fairly soft, so this should get the job done but if there any obvious weaknesses I'd appreciate feedback. I'm not sure I totally grasp all of the new rules, so I want to avoid obvious pitfalls from the get-go.

Spoiler: Dark Angels 8th Edition Mk1

Show

Using a Battalion
HQ
Interrogator Chaplain (128)
-Crozius Arcanum, Power Fist, Plasma Pistol, Jump Pack
Chapter Master (110)
-Combi-plasma, Relic Blade

Elites
Apothecary (55)
Company Vets (x5, 161)
-Combi-plasma and power maul (sarge), plasma guns (x4)
Dreadnought (93)
-Assault Cannon, Storm Bolter, DCCW

Troops
Tactical Squad (x5, 97)
-Combi-plasma and power axe (sarge), plasma gun
Tactical Squad (x5, 97)
-Combi-plasma and power axe (sarge), plasma gun
Tactical Squad (x5, 97)
-Combi-plasma and power axe (sarge), plasma gun
Scout Squad (x5, 75)
-Sniper rifles (X5)
Scout Squad (x5, 75)
-Sniper rifles (x5)

Fast Attack
Assault Squad (x5, 114)
-Plasma pistol, meltabombs and Power Axe (sarge), Flamers (x2), Jump Packs

Heavy Support
Devastators (x5, 151)
-Lascannons (X3), Plasma and Power Sword (x4)

Dedicated Transports
Rhino (78)
-Stormbolter and Hunter-Killer Missile
Razorback (100)
-TL Assault Cannon
Razorback (100)
-TL Assault Cannon
Razorback (110)
-Las/plas
Razorback (110)
-Las/plas

Total: 1751

Spoiler: Intended Use

Show

For the observant, it's basically a single Demi-Company Gladius. Not too creative, but it's what I'm used to running so I'm starting from there.

The Chapter Master, the Command Squad, and the Apothecary go in the Rhino. Command Squad can tank wounds for the Chapter Master, and the Apothecary hopefully can resurrect them afterwards. Chapter Master buffs the Command Squad as well, making for an admittedly soft "unit" that can light up most anything with 6 plasma guns while still being a reasonable melee threat. The Rhino can provide cover, though not being able to move in the Shooting Phase kind of tanks that whole set of Rhino tactics. Missile is just to fill out points, and to annoy something away from the objective grabbers.

The scouts hide out in ruins (I was too cheap for camo cloaks, but I might pick them up) and snipe vital weaker characters, like comissars and weird boyz and what have you.

The Dreadnought has a decent amount of dakka, is rather cheap, and can tarpit mobs and murder characters. Not being able to lose models makes him pretty immune to Battleshock IIRC, and for his price that's not a bad use. I actually might adjust the list to get another one in there - it seems like a decent bargain.

Assault Squad and Interrogator Chaplain are a mobile annoyance that can be decently dangerous in melee with two plasma pistols, the chaplain's buffs, and two sources of power weapons (and meatshields).

Devastators sit back and shoot stuff. Preferably from a backfield objective, but eh. They also have a meatshield to stave off the important people from dying, and the sarge has enough equipment that they might hold out in melee for more than one turn. Emphasis on might.

Razorbacks are the real winners here, as the assault cannon razors can play aggressive (and have the plasma tacticals inside) with one of the las-plas Razors also having a tactical squad. The other one can either sit back and shoot, or play aggressively depending on need.

Seems like it should be decent. There's plenty of plasma, which is a functional and cheap troubleshooter with the new wounding chart and can handle more than one role. There's a couple of groupings that aren't quite real melee threats, but are troublesome enough to need accounting for. The Razorbacks provide a LOT of dakka, which should help me if something really dangerous shows up. T8 might be a problem, but there are five lascannons, and the assault cannons can chip of wounds through volume of fire. I can always heat up the plasma, though that might not be worth it depending on the situation. There's also mobility for claiming objectives. I was really tempted to go with Sammael, who has an absurd amount of dakka and is a dangerous melee threat in this edition, but the pricetag of ~270ish points kind of turned me off.

[Renegade Paladin]

I can't help but notice that, apart from Dark Imperium, no Primaris Marines are in the batch of preorders, nor are any of the silly new vehicles they've previewed.

[Blackhawk748]

So me and a buddy are looking through the leaks and we just realized that the Monolith doesnt have a 2+, so theres that SM favoritism again. Oh, and its BS 4+ for....reasons.

Also i added up the costs for a Morkanaught and a Knight Errant.

The Errant costs 88 points more (68 more if the Mork has a KFF, and it will), and completely shows up the Morkanaught in every way, mostly because the changes made to Template weapons (they are now 1d6 shots so Orks, with their abyssmal accuracy suffer for it). I knew the Knight would be better, but i look at the Mork and i see no reason to ever use it, as i can buy ten Kustom Mega Cannon Mek Guns for the price of a single Morkanaught and those have Grots aiming them.

Oh and for the curious:

Stompa- 977 (it has 40 wounds, but they wasted 49 points on a bunch of pointless small arms)
Deff Dredds- 131 (2 arms and 2 big shootas)
Killa Kan- 57 (Kan Klaw and Big Shoota, but more realistically its gonna be 61 cuz Grotzookas are gonna be used way more than Big Shootas)
Trukk- 82 (but we get to shoot out of it, so thats something)
Battlewagon- 161 (no guns, but it'll get pricey quick, and i still cant fathom why it has a 4+ save.)

I dont see anyone using the Stompa unless the usual points values goes up, cuz its half your army.

[druid91]

So me and a buddy are looking through the leaks and we just realized that the Monolith doesnt have a 2+, so theres that SM favoritism again. Oh, and its BS 4+ for....reasons.

Also i added up the costs for a Morkanaught and a Knight Errant.

The Errant costs 88 points more (68 more if the Mork has a KFF, and it will), and completely shows up the Morkanaught in every way, mostly because the changes made to Template weapons (they are now 1d6 shots so Orks, with their abyssmal accuracy suffer for it). I knew the Knight would be better, but i look at the Mork and i see no reason to ever use it, as i can buy ten Kustom Mega Cannon Mek Guns for the price of a single Morkanaught and those have Grots aiming them.

Oh and for the curious:

Stompa- 977 (it has 40 wounds, but they wasted 49 points on a bunch of pointless small arms)
Deff Dredds- 131 (2 arms and 2 big shootas)
Killa Kan- 57 (Kan Klaw and Big Shoota, but more realistically its gonna be 61 cuz Grotzookas are gonna be used way more than Big Shootas)
Trukk- 82 (but we get to shoot out of it, so thats something)
Battlewagon- 161 (no guns, but it'll get pricey quick, and i still cant fathom why it has a 4+ save.)

I dont see anyone using the Stompa unless the usual points values goes up, cuz its half your army.

From what the game store guy said, they apparently think people who care about points are less than 30% of their customers.

[Blackhawk748]

From what the game store guy said, they apparently think people who care about points are less than 30% of their customers.

I mean, i knew they were delusional, but i didnt think they were that delusional.

[LeSwordfish]

I mean, I know more than half of my usual opponents at the store would be just as happy with power levels. Not to blame the liberal media bubble, but if everyone you hang out with uses points, that might be a figure biased by "people who hang out with you" and so not a representative sample.

[Blackhawk748]

I mean, I know more than half of my usual opponents at the store would be just as happy with power levels. Not to blame the liberal media bubble, but if everyone you hang out with uses points, that might be a figure biased by "people who hang out with you" and so not a representative sample.

Im aware of that, but even Power points are points, and the Stompa is 49 Power points, so it would still be a huge chunk of your army.

[Cheesegear]

I can't help but notice that, apart from Dark Imperium, no Primaris Marines are in the batch of preorders, nor are any of the silly new vehicles they've previewed.

Which means that you know that a new Space Marine Codex is around the corner (e.g; Angels of Death), and the Index: Imperium I book may not be worth the paper it's printed on. But, given that II1 has Deathwatch and Grey Knights in it as well, it's not like I regret my purchase at all.

Im aware of that, but even Power points are points...

I actually tried explaining that to my Blackshirt today. "But it's different." ...Sure, it's different, but it's also the same thing. It's an arbitrary balancing factor in the game.
If I had free time, I'd be drawing bell curves (in Excel, of course) on the Power Level of Factions since...Y'know...The leaks are all out. But, I'm painting my Sigmar army for a tournament next week.

[Drasius]

From what the game store guy said, they apparently think people who care about points are less than 30% of their customers.

Because AoS was such a huge success before the Generals handbook came out, and there totally wasn't a million different homebrew systems putting various flavours of points to units in order to have some semblance of balance. Also, GW totally didn't cave and get one of the more popular points system people to help them write the Generals Handbook which was a huge turning point in the acceptance of AoS due to having points. Also Also, the "wounds" balance system that didn't use points was such a wild success, what with 1 bloodthirster being equal to 12 skaven slaves. /sarcasm

[lord_khaine]

Im also kinda sceptical about this though. Is it 1-2 years ago that there was launched a very big investigation into what the 40k players want and think? And at least i recall reading the several page long summary on the interviews, where among other things it revealed that only a minority bough the models just for painting them. So i kinda doubt even GW is actually that ignorant about their own fanbase.

So me and a buddy are looking through the leaks and we just realized that the Monolith doesnt have a 2+, so theres that SM favoritism again. Oh, and its BS 4+ for....reasons.

Yeah alright.. i can se reasons for leaving the BS at 4+ if its driven by regular Necron Warriors. But it should be tougher than a Land Raider. It is kinda typical of GW.

[Cheesegear]

Is it 1-2 years ago that there was launched a very big investigation into what the 40k players want and think?

The first one was in 2016. They had another one this year, which I definitely remember doing, but I haven't seen the results, and I'm fair convinced that the results may have been directly handed to GW.

What it actually said (the demographic data is available) was that people who actually gave a **** about the hobby enough to fill out a survey was...
- ~50% of the participants were over 30, and had been playing 40K for more than 10 years, and
- People over 30 had an average of $500-$1000 (USD) spent on GW per year.

A flaw in the survey, was that 80% of participants like 'casual, friendly games', but didn't qualify what that meant. I like a 'friendly' game as much as the next person. But, to me, that means that I don't take a 'hard list', and I have opportunities to put some of my less-used (i.e; Fluff over Substance) models, because it doesn't matter. But at no time, ever have I said "Let's just put everything we have on us, on the board. That seems fair." I have always played games used points. Always. Several times I have given my opponent leeway, and given them an extra hundred points or so - sometimes - because they were playing a lower tier army and 100 Points didn't really matter because I army I had was empirically better anyway.

38% of people like 'competitive play'. What does that even mean? Because, to me, that means 'Running Net/Tournament-Lists at Each Other', and anything that isn't that, is a friendly game.

But, what the demographics, combined with the final results, said that of the People Who Care About The Game (i.e; Spend Big and care enough to fill out a survey), only 4% didn't care about the game aspect of the hobby.

Again, a flaw in the survey, was that you had to seek it out. You had to be part of an online community that would be 'in the know' to source the link to the survey, and you had to care enough about the state of the game, to take the survey in the first place. The survey did not take into account, 'the man on the street'.

[lord_khaine]

Oh yeah.. survey.. that was the word i were looking for.
And also a good point about how subjective the terms "friendly" and "competitive" game actually are. It will of course mean something different to each person who responds. To me competitive play mainly means playing tournaments ect. But i suspect that it can be averaged out to either playing for fun or playing to win.

All the same im not certain how many men on the streets there actually are. All the gaming communities i know off are organised though local online communities.

[LCP]

There's no information even in the more detailed PDF given on that survey page of how they actually gathered their data. Without some way to gauge the sampling bias I wouldn't take anything that survey says about the demographics of the game without a bucket of salt. With 1,027 responses, it's most likely mainly telling you about the demographics of the people who responded to the survey.

[Renegade Paladin]

There's no information even in the more detailed PDF given on that survey page of how they actually gathered their data. Without some way to gauge the sampling bias I wouldn't take anything that survey says about the demographics of the game without a bucket of salt. With 1,027 responses, it's most likely mainly telling you about the demographics of the people who responded to the survey.

Yes, of course. It's not like they could hire a polling agency to do a random representative sample, and if they did the VAST majority of respondents wouldn't know what 40k is. There's nothing scientific about it.

[Cheesegear]

With 1,027 responses, it's most likely mainly telling you about the demographics of the people who responded to the survey.

Point is "GW does no market research."
Someone who isn't GW, went ahead and did amateur market research on internet forums (I'm pretty sure it started on BoLS). Which is a big step up from nothing. Some people are under the impression that '2016 at GW' happened because of that research.

All's it had to do was be better than nothing, and it was.

[Requizen]

Play to your meta instead of the meta. Doesn't matter if [X] is good is nobody you play against ever brings [X] (unless you're doing a bunch of non-local tournaments).

Volume of mid/high str fire is still going to be the business, high movement is still going to win games and elite units are still going to get pumped. The fact that characters have a bunch of wounds now generally means they're safer and given the various bubbles the hand out and the DS rules means it's snipers or melee to take them out. Since you're not going to be pumping most characters in a single round, even with 2 deathmark squads (you won't be able to be in rapid-fire range if your opponent has any idea of what they can do, so 20 shots from 2 full squads, 13ish hits, 2ish mortal wounds and 4ish ap0 saves means that you're looking at ~3-4 wounds give or take) , I'd say they're interesting choices and maybe a counter against some things but a bit meh overall, unless you can consistently roll a bunch of 6's.

Given that 8th is basically AoS with a fancy new hat, I expect a fairly sizable focus on characters since that's what I've generally seen in AoS and there they can easily be taken out with the plethora of d6 mortal wound generators. Just like 7th though, eternal war and maelstrom are going to be 2 very different beasts and an EW list isn't going to be very good at Maelstrom unless we have eldar vs orks levels of imbalance, which I don't believe is quite the case so far.

At the end of the day, you need to have your dudes on objectives to win in most of the missions, regardless of which format, so unless something has the mobility to get there in a timely fashion, the ability to resist an enemy trying to push them off or are cheap enough to use as screens for killy units that have minimal defenses, then you should be thinking hard about why you're taking them. In many ways, nothing has changed about building an army list from 7th, you still need to ask yourself the same questions:
- How do I deal with hoardes?
- How do I deal with Melee?
- How do I deal with MC's and vehicles T7/8 10+ W, 3+ save models?
- How do I deal with 2+ saves?
- How do I deal with fast moving threats?
- How do I deal with DS/Outflank?
- How do I hold Objectives?
- How do I stop my opponent holding objectives?

The answers to the questions may have changed, but the questions are still effectively the same as they were a month ago, except that non IK/WK/thundercav melee is an actual threat again.

The thing is, for my meta (and I assume many metas), it may not be the cutting edge meta, but it is very close to the meta. People read sites (like this one or whatever), people talk in chat rooms, people watch batreps and read about events. Even the more casual or "creative" Nid lists would have 2+ Flyrants because it was obvious they were the best, and after Lictorshame made a splash event the dude running mass Hormagants put a couple of them in his list. It spills over.

For those questions, I'm seeing multiple answers per question and it really depends on the specifics of what the opponent brings. Is the DS/Outflank in most games primarily shooting or melee? Are the fast moving threats squishy? Monsters? Hordes? There's no one answer and it really depends on what other armies start to find is good.

Again, I can see a lot of scenarios where, say, Flayed Ones are great. They're pretty expensive now, ~50% more, but really good, given the right models on the table. But will the enemy be bringing things that makes them crap or not? Are things that can shred blobs of 4+ Infantry in a single round autoincludes for 60% of armies? Are various Lascannon equivalents in armies cheap enough to spam? Or is it more Plasmas that we'll see? I can spam vehicles with QS against the former, I'll be just doing blobspam and Wraiths against the latter. So, it depends. Last edition, if I told you "well yeah Wraiths are a bit rubbish to bring", someone just looking at the book would laugh at me, but it's because Grav, Superheavies, and fast, durable S10 was the thing to bring for several armies, and lots of people were blasting out Summoning regardless of their allegiance. Not to mention niche armies like Renegades with Artillery that straight up countered any melee based army.

I'm not saying it's the most complicated thing in the world to figure out, only that, other than obvious garbage units, it's hard to say which units are good and which ones are bad because the overall environment changes that definition. Maybe it's because I haven't read every army yet to figure out what I'll see on the table, but I won't go ahead and say which Necron stuff is top tier yet because it all depends on what the other armies are bringing. Our LoW units are a bit trash, Zahndrekh is surprisingly not great (though not terrible), Warriors are obviously amazing, and Immortals might be the killiest Troop selection in the game right now (other than maybe GSC), but that doesn't account for every unit in the army. All I'm saying, that.

So me and a buddy are looking through the leaks and we just realized that the Monolith doesnt have a 2+, so theres that SM favoritism again. Oh, and its BS 4+ for....reasons.

I don't think the 3+ is SM favoritism, and this is as a Necron Player. Yes, they should be the same durability, the the Monolith has Fly, can Deep Strike, and technically has an infinite carrying capacity. I'll take a slightly lower save for that.

I don't really understand the 4+ though. Nothing else in the Necron army is baseline 4+ to hit.

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah alright.. i can se reasons for leaving the BS at 4+ if its driven by regular Necron Warriors. But it should be tougher than a Land Raider. It is kinda typical of GW.

Necron warriors (and every other unit that isnt a Tomb Spyder) has a BS of a 3+, so the Monolith having a 4+ makes no sense, since it used to have a 3+

I don't think the 3+ is SM favoritism, and this is as a Necron Player. Yes, they should be the same durability, the the Monolith has Fly, can Deep Strike, and technically has an infinite carrying capacity. I'll take a slightly lower save for that.

I don't really understand the 4+ though. Nothing else in the Necron army is baseline 4+ to hit.

Yes, but it also costs more than the Land Raider, so it already paid for all that.

[Voidhawk]

Yes, of course. It's not like they could hire a polling agency to do a random representative sample, and if they did the VAST majority of respondents wouldn't know what 40k is. There's nothing scientific about it.

Use "big data". If you've ever bought a GW product with a credit/debit card, it was tracked and the data is available to purchase for data-mining agencies. Once you have that list of people, you merely need a motivating factor to get them to fill out your survey. Bribes are the classic method, either money-off vouchers or simple cash. The other method would be to send a survey to every secondary-market for them to pass on to their customers. Every webstore and LGS could offer the survey to everyone who visits, even if they don't make a purchase.

In both cases, all GW needs to do is care enough to actually pay for market research. Like a normal freaking business.

[Blackhawk748]

Use "big data". If you've ever bought a GW product with a credit/debit card, it was tracked and the data is available to purchase for data-mining agencies. Once you have that list of people, you merely need a motivating factor to get them to fill out your survey. Bribes are the classic method, either money-off vouchers or simple cash. The other method would be to send a survey to every secondary-market for them to pass on to their customers. Every webstore and LGS could offer the survey to everyone who visits, even if they don't make a purchase.

In both cases, all GW needs to do is care enough to actually pay for market research. Like a normal freaking business.

Agreed. Also instead of asking "What armies do you own" they should ask what your Top Three armies are. Cuz i may own 1k points of Marines, but i haven't played with them since 4th, and so they got misleading information last time. Cuz my top three are:

1. Orks
2. Sisters
3. Ad Mech

This would give far more accurate information than asking what people own.

Also on the note of Sisters, their AoF annoy me. Its not that they arent good (they are) its not even the fact that i have to spam Imagifiers to use my factions main ability (ok, maybe i am a bit annoyed by that yet), its the fact that they took the Ynaerri Soulburst ability, and basically Copy-Pasted is over to Sisters. Like, how lazy can you be?

[Voidhawk]

I'm not saying it's the most complicated thing in the world to figure out, only that, other than obvious garbage units, it's hard to say which units are good and which ones are bad because the overall environment changes that definition.

Right. Lets talk some actual 8th-edition Tactics (in my Tactics thread? More likely than you think!) and how general rules pertain to over-all strategy.

Eternal War has basically not changed: kill dudes, don't die, move infantry onto objectives last turn. Bring heavy guns for multi-wound models, and multi-shot guns for hordes. Be prepared for getting charged. Have a plan for killing a character as tough as Guilliman or Ghazghkull (melee and/or snipers).

Maelstrom is more complicated, and since most tournies use variants of the maelstrom rules there's where the brunt of the analysis will always be focussed. So here's my entirely unbiased opinions.

Spoiler: Tactical Objectives and Missions

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01-12 Control obj X

13-18 Control Obj X for your turn and enemy's turn.

19 Have none of your units in your DZ. (Sounds like a bad idea.)
20 Have 1-3 units in enemy DZ.
21 Have 3 units in your DZ, and enemy has none. Kill them.
22 Take Obj X
23 Control any 3 obj
24 Control every obj

25-27 Kill things.
28 No enemy with 6-12" of center. Kill them.
29 Kill things with morale. (Kill one thing alot)
30 Do a psychic thing. Or deny one.

31 Kill warlord.
32 Kill psyker.
33 Kill flying thing.
34 Kill character.
35 Kill big thing.
36 Achieve one of above using your warlord.

Take objectives: 21/36
Kill things: 11/36 (Kill characters: 3/11)
Other: 4/36

Missions:
1. Cleanse and Control - Fill up to 3 T-Os each turn.
2. Contact Lost - Start with 1 T-O. Draw T-Os equal to number of objectives held each turn.
3. Tactical Escalation - Fill up to turn-number T-Os. Gain +1VP for a T-O type of your choice.
4. Spoils of War - Fill up to 3 T-Os each turn. Can steal each others "Secure" T-Os.
5. Cloak and Shadows - Fill up to 3 T-Os each turn. Keep T-Os secret.
6. Deadlock - Fill up to (7 - turn number) objectives. Stratagem CP cost doubled from turn 3 onward.

Spoiler: Spoilered for long-winded yammering

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Playing to the mission means ~2/3 of the time you'll be putting dudes on a point and/or pushing your opponent off it, and the other ~1/3 you'll be murdering dudes (eg, doing what you were going to do anyway). To achieve maximum points you want to be able to complete an objective the same turn you draw it, so you can draw more cards and get more points next turn. This means having fast units that can sprint across the board to wherever necessary, and who don't mind getting close to the enemies face when doing it. So far, so identical to 7th. But here's where the differences come in:

1) Objectives in 8th are controlled by "the player with the most models within 3" of the objective".
2) There's no objective secured.
3) Morale will no longer make an enemy back off a point (though it may kill them defending it).
4) You can't get out of a Transport after moving, and most don't even have firepoints.
5) Reserves arrive exactly when and where you want (or at least within 9" of where you want).

The combination of these is not a trivial change. A troop-carrying Rhino cannot snatch an objective from a enemy without killing it. In fact four Rhinos each filled with ten marines can't snatch an objective from five grots, because five > four. If you have a Rhino of marines and draw an objective that has any enemy on it at all, it will take them a minimum of two turns to take it: one to drive up, and one to get out, attack, and claim it. Meanwhile your opponent has had the opportunity to kill them, and/or reinforce the objective.

Dudes in Rhinos/Chimeras/Trukks/most default things are bad in Maelstrom. I rate transports into these tiers:
5 - Metal Box Tier - Rhinos, and any other gun-less tank. Only protects and moves the dudes inside. Doesn't help you claim things or kill things while it's doing so. Bad.
4 - Gunboat Tier - Razorbacks, Wave Serpents etc. Now a tank first and transport second. Can't take objectives in one turn, but can move dudes onto them so your fast-troops can go somewhere else later. Ok-ish, but mostly for supporting better units.
3 - Pimp-Mobile Tier - Fast (preferably Flying) Open-topped attack craft... basically just Dark Eldar get these. Manoeuvrable enough you can focus loads of fire onto the same objective (if the enemy is wiped out you don't need to get out), then race off to the next. Solid choice.
2 - Drop-Pod Tier - Puts a squad of dudes right where you want them and ready to assault... once. Almost impossible to respond to, but not reusable and can no longer Ob-sec points away from your enemy. Still good though.
1 - Valkyrie Tier - Calling it now: the best vehicle in the game, no contest (until vendettas get stats). Hard to Hit, T7 with 14 wounds, 20" or 45" movement +20" Advance is all great, but Grav-chute Insertion makes it the premier objective taker. The troops it drops off while moving (for example 19" into its 20" minimum) must drop 9" from enemies, but as it's a disembark they can then move up and shoot/assault immediately. Then next turn they can hop straight back in and get ready do it again. Oh yes, and it also carries decent guns. Elysians ho-rah!

Because almost all transports are so bad for taking objectives, this means you're generally going to want your fast objective-takers to not need one. You'll also want them to come in decent numbers, and be able to kill the enemy the moment they rock-up preferably including a charge. That way at the end of turn you'll have more dudes within 3", and you get your points. And for the best you'll want them to also be tough enough to survive all that, and do it again next turn. Deep Strikers will also provide alot of utility here, and I expect holding small units of killy things back until you draw Supremacy or a far-away objective to be a decent tactic.

So what does this mean for Necrons?

Spoiler: Spoilered for more yammering

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Our fast objective-stealers look to be Praetorians, Wraiths and Destroyers, since all three are the trifecta of fast, tough, and killy without being too expensive. Though as you've said, which one is the best will depend on meta-choices by your opponents. A Command Barge and/or Destroyer Lord running support will also be useful up-front. Our transports are... less good. They're reasonable at what they do, and in Eternal War I expect there will be various builds using them both, but they simply can't put dudes where they're needed fast enough for Maelstrom.

I expect our back-line to be made primarily of Heavy Destroyers and Tesla-Immortals (I've already expounded at length about how Warriors aren't as tough as they look in 8th), with an Overlord providing buffs depending whether more AT or A-inf firepower is needed, and perhaps a Cryptek if we need the extra resilience. I'm not as sold on the Doomscythe or Doomsday Ark as others have been; when math-hammering they don't perform as well as Heavy Destroyers for the same price, and both have restricted mobility.

As far as other tricks go, both C'Tan are looking very strong at character killing and the psuedo-infiltrate on the Deceiver is great. Small/medium units of Flayed Ones will be excellent for appearing in corners and stealing poorly-defended objectives. The Monolith is a pure distraction carnifex, with huge numbers of wounds but relatively low damage-per-point, but sometimes you just need a doom-brick.