Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[Drasius]

That's the actual complaint I'm hearing. "Psykers are boring now."
Sure. It's valid. But I've also been playing a game for the last ~2 years where pre-game rolls and the Psychic Phase has taken more time than any other segment of the game, because there were too many Psykers on the board, where the player has too many options, and too many choices and too many dice to roll.

Complexity isn't always good. Neither is simplicity.

GW went from one to the other, and I'm not even bothered. Because regular, 'boring' Characters are now the ones to hand out buffs, rather than Psykers.

Those of us who happen to like psycher heavy armies get unfairly punished because GW refuse to put reasonable restrictions on armies because it might hurt sales. If matched is meant to be such a small portion of their sales, then having something like the old 3rd ed 0-1 restrictions on certain units would be an easy way of forcing certain things *cough*WK/psychers/etc*cough* to be included in reasonable numbers instead of handing out bonii like candy for spamming what's meant to relatively rare stuff (riptides/wraith units/psychers).

Plus the whole everyone-but-GK-and-TS-have-better-psychers-and-can-cast-more-powers-than-2-of-the-3-factions-most-known-for-their-psychic-powers retardedness.

[Vaz]

You say that like GW don't understand the correlation between broken rules and more sales.

[Drasius]

You say that like GW don't understand the correlation between broken rules and more sales.

Given the various releases over the years whose rules have been lacking, or the units that have been terrible for many editions in a row, sometimes I wonder if they do. The Mutilator is a classic example as it is both ugly as sin and incredibly trash rules-wise yet was a new release for the most recent non-8th chaos codex. At least warp talons had a gorgeous model to try and sell boxes because the rules sure as hell didn't move any of the new kits. Same story for the DA deathtrap landspeeder, though the styling was far more hit and miss from person to person. Assault Centurions are another example, though at least they can be turned into grav cents (who I will remind you that everyone thought were terrible for a couple of weeks on release). The poor old whirlwind languished on the shelf for many, many years until it finally got shred in a squadron and was then sold out for months. ASM got a new kit and they remained just as terrible as always (outside of the skyhammer obviously, which was really just a 170 point tax to have relentless grav devs come down 1st turn). The Orkanaughts were fairly hyped until people saw their rules too. There are countless examples of new models with bad rules or existing models that continually have terrible rules for reasons unknown to saner people like you and I.

[lord_khaine]

I honestly think it is a rather reasonable way to fix things. If something is blatantly OP. Or really hard to balance in a way that wont snowball in either direction, then simply nerf the root of the problem.
As it is now psykers are a lot easier to balance, because any given power will only be used once per round.

That does also make Psykers a lot more reliable, since it now means that they can again be allowed to pick their powers, without the risk of every single psyker on the entire battlefield picking the top power, and spamming it nonstop all battle.

And really, who here dont think that GW is going to print more faction specific psychic powers with the actual books. ?

[boomwolf]

Not really. You can still cast Smite as many times as you want, and Thousand Sons' Smite is even better than normal.

Wooo *twirls finger* Just about every TS player i've seen so far has said they will have 3 Sorcerers, tops. And most are saying only 1 (who will be Ahriman) cuz spamming Improved Smite just isnt worth the 100+ points the Sorcerer is gonna run.

Im rather annoyed that we Orks lost Power Vomit and Zzzap. Those were two witchfires that were actually worth using, and that says something.

What on earth are you two talking about?

TS doesn't have improved smite.
Rubrics and scarabs have a DOWNGRADED smite (1 damage instead of D3 and D3 instead of D6), and sorcerers/exalted/ahriman have a regular smite.
The only one with an "improved smite" in TS is magnus himself.

It's nigh-impossible to justify more than two psykers, and if you got ahriman/magnus, then to justify even one besides them is hard.
And 7th's TS release, who was JUST NOW encouraged you to have 4 or more sorcerer variants. heck, the exalted are sold in packs of 3-why on earth would anyone ever run 3 of them in 8th's current ruleset is beyond me.



The rule of one in 8th is retarded.
Because as said, some spells are not a problem if cast all day, while others are.
HOWEVER, one of 8th's new mechanics is gradual spell casting difficulty for different spells!
A spell causes problems? MAKE IT HARDER TO CAST.
And/or add the ability to link up psykers to boost each other's casting, that way you are not stuck with useless psykers once you cross the threshold of mere two (or one character).

[Theodoric]

You say that like GW don't understand the correlation between broken rules and more sales.

Considering the rules design team and the model design team barely co-operate, I really doubt there's that much coordination going on. I don't think GW is even capable of these grand schemes some people accuse them of, as if GW are led by the Illuminiati and not a bunch of nerdish weirdos working for a weirder company with arcane traditions and until recently a quite mad CEO.

[Cheesegear]

What on earth are you two talking about?

I took it as given that the person I was talking to knew what they were talking about.
If that is the case, then with the downgraded Smite, it just means that you can't spam Mortal Wound generators in a Thousand Sons army, because that'd be near broke. So, Thousand Sons are not broken as I was led to believe, and they're just as shafted as Grey Knights.

The only one with an "improved smite" in TS is magnus himself.

I assume the person I was talking to was massively confused or explained himself really poorly - or both. He seemed to think that Improved Smite was for everyone. Instead, nerfed Smite is for everyone - yay!

And 7th's TS release, who was JUST NOW encouraged you to have 4 or more sorcerer variants. heck, the exalted are sold in packs of 3-why on earth would anyone ever run 3 of them in 8th's current ruleset is beyond me.

I assume because there's a Formation going to come that we don't know about.
Or, Thousand Sons are back to being hot garbage except for Ahriman and/or Magnus.

And/or add the ability to link up psykers to boost each other's casting...

Yep. That's probably what Formations will be for.

Point is, core rules aren't really ever going to offer you anything exciting. When the Codecies come out, and do **** all, that's when you quit the hobby.

[Forum Explorer]

What on earth are you two talking about?

TS doesn't have improved smite.
Rubrics and scarabs have a DOWNGRADED smite (1 damage instead of D3 and D3 instead of D6), and sorcerers/exalted/ahriman have a regular smite.
The only one with an "improved smite" in TS is magnus himself.

It's nigh-impossible to justify more than two psykers, and if you got ahriman/magnus, then to justify even one besides them is hard.
And 7th's TS release, who was JUST NOW encouraged you to have 4 or more sorcerer variants. heck, the exalted are sold in packs of 3-why on earth would anyone ever run 3 of them in 8th's current ruleset is beyond me.



The rule of one in 8th is retarded.
Because as said, some spells are not a problem if cast all day, while others are.
HOWEVER, one of 8th's new mechanics is gradual spell casting difficulty for different spells!
A spell causes problems? MAKE IT HARDER TO CAST.
And/or add the ability to link up psykers to boost each other's casting, that way you are not stuck with useless psykers once you cross the threshold of mere two (or one character).

No, it's a solid rule. Do you really expect GW to keep thing appropriately balanced with the difficulty mechanism? If they mess up, things can easily become broken again, except now it'll be limited to one cast, which will keep things under control.

[lord_khaine]

I assume because there's a Formation going to come that we don't know about.
Or, Thousand Sons are back to being hot garbage except for Ahriman and/or Magnus.

Or we will surprisingly enough get more psychic powers added in the actual army book.

No, it's a solid rule. Do you really expect GW to keep thing appropriately balanced with the difficulty mechanism? If they mess up, things can easily become broken again, except now it'll be limited to one cast, which will keep things under control.

It is going to offer a lot towards preventing things from spiraling out of control ala "demon summoning"
When this is the general rule then they can always make specific exceptions for the most psyker heavy armies. And adding new psychic powers are going to be a lot easier now. All the need to do is to ensure that said power at least in some cases are worth casting over Smite. But we wont get a situation where a power/dicipline is either the best, or trash tier that will newer get used.

Also, its actually not even like this is a new rule. We have had it before. Though it is a while ago.

[Turalisj]

No, it's a solid rule. Do you really expect GW to keep thing appropriately balanced with the difficulty mechanism? If they mess up, things can easily become broken again, except now it'll be limited to one cast, which will keep things under control.

Meanwhile, my grey knights are going to get boxed until they get a codex and the landraiders, storm raven, razorback, and dreadnought will be re-appropriated to other forces.

[lord_khaine]

Meanwhile, my grey knights are going to get boxed until they get a codex and the landraiders, storm raven, razorback, and dreadnought will be re-appropriated to other forces.

Well.. with the danger of sounding insensitive, then i do kinda think that it is a viable tradeoff, if some Power Armor Armies gets less viable in return for more xenos armies getting viable.

[boomwolf]

Well.. with the danger of sounding insensitive, then i do kinda think that it is a viable tradeoff, if some Power Armor Armies gets less viable in return for more xenos armies getting viable.

Do tell who though?
Tau have practically been erased from the game, as all their unique mechanics are gone, and everything sans infantry costs far more yet is often far weaker-the few things they still have-marines also got.
Eldar were in a point they could only go lower, because they were the top of the food chain by far.
Orks do not impress me, at all.
Necrons seems nice, but not THAT good, and they were in that position for a while now.
Nids got a step up, but not sure enough of a step up, haven't seen anyone excited about them.
GSC don't have any new tricks up their sleeves, and the few tricks they did have (like charging from reserves) are now shared by everyone.

Until codcies hit, its practically all marines all the time.
And marines are going to get the first codex, make no mistake.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

WYSIWYG question: would it be legit to consider the hole in the palm of the Dark Vengeance Helbrute to be a heavy flamer port? Since I have the 6E Dark Vengeance set just lying around anyway I thought might as well see what can be done with the models as is.

[Requizen]

Do tell who though?
Tau have practically been erased from the game, as all their unique mechanics are gone, and everything sans infantry costs far more yet is often far weaker-the few things they still have-marines also got.
Eldar were in a point they could only go lower, because they were the top of the food chain by far.
Orks do not impress me, at all.
Necrons seems nice, but not THAT good, and they were in that position for a while now.
Nids got a step up, but not sure enough of a step up, haven't seen anyone excited about them.
GSC don't have any new tricks up their sleeves, and the few tricks they did have (like charging from reserves) are now shared by everyone.

Until codcies hit, its practically all marines all the time.
And marines are going to get the first codex, make no mistake.

I feel that may be a bit more doomsaying than not, but I'm not familiar enough with new Tau or Orks to talk about them. I have plenty of friends in my area excited about Nids/GSC though. One of them is planning GSC + drop Scions (who are AMAZING at the moment). Our Eldar players are already formulating the new lists, likely going towards Ynnari, but seems pretty solid in other areas as well. I mean, playtesting will tell, but I don't get the same sort of negative vibe from our area.

[DaedalusMkV]

Do tell who though?
Tau have practically been erased from the game, as all their unique mechanics are gone, and everything sans infantry costs far more yet is often far weaker-the few things they still have-marines also got.

Tau look fine, or possibly even very strong. They won't be well-served by spamming Crisis Suits and Riptides any more as those units are now quite expensive, but Crisis Suits needed to get more expensive when they got dramatically tougher. Basically everything else got better in this edition, and overall Tau look to compare very well to pretty much every other army. The only thing we lost was JSJ, and in exchange it's now impossible to hide from us in melee.

Frankly, from the one test game I've played with the leaked rules, Tau should be a powerhouse if built correctly. Longstrike is an absolute monster, Strike Teams are extremely solid, Commanders and Ghostkeels bring the pain without getting hurt in return. Tau can force-multiply like nobody's business, and the force they're multiplying is pretty damned efficient to begin with.

[boomwolf]

Eldar forming lists around Ynnari isn't new.

GSC+scions is not exactly a "xeno on the rise"

As for why I'm negative about tau?
I'm a tau veteran. I'm playing then since 5th, when they were remarkably unplayable because almost every unit sucked-and I survived and thrived with it. I went by the glory days of Taudar by sticking to pure tau, and limiting to 1 riptide, and it was good. I went by 7th it 1 riptide 1 ghost limit, and had a blast.

But oh dear the 8th index.
Crisis suits? unplayable, and inferior to inceptors in any way.
Broadisdes? unplayable, and inferior to centurions in every way.
Ghostkeels? riptide? cost like hell, can't even move and shoot properly any more, so either you wate you valuable hardpoint on a MT, or have TONS of markerlights. unplayable.
Markerlights? somehow both utterly mandatory (as nothing in the army even functions without them), and completely worthless as the bonuses are so bad. heck, some of the things markerlights "grant" are merely restoring what was once base functions on units that were never considered good to begin with!
Hammerhead? yea, it got better. the predator still mocks it though with being slightly easier to kill and less mobile, but packing more than twice the firepower for cheaper.
Most armies got faster-tau got mostly slower AND lost any agility. seriously, the entire mechanic got cut off the game.

Yea, we got improvements to stealth suits and vespids, but anything bigger than a stealth suits, with the possible exception of the coldstar and longstrike-are just junk that can't even compete with marine counterparts, let alone have their niche of gameplay.

Until recently I played nothing BUT tay (just started a TS army), now I just can't see myself playing tau on anything bigger than 500 points patrol games.

Tau look fine, or possibly even very strong. They won't be well-served by spamming Crisis Suits and Riptides any more as those units are now quite expensive, but Crisis Suits needed to get more expensive when they got dramatically tougher. Basically everything else got better in this edition, and overall Tau look to compare very well to pretty much every other army. The only thing we lost was JSJ, and in exchange it's now impossible to hide from us in melee.

Who cares that you are thougher if you are less than half as good at acutally getting a kill?
Crisis suits nowdays are worthless. I'm never fielding even one on those prices even if I was allowed to take one, but for some reason I gotta take 3 or more. (and I won 11)

Frankly, from the one test game I've played with the leaked rules, Tau should be a powerhouse if built correctly. Longstrike is an absolute monster, Strike Teams are extremely solid, Commanders and Ghostkeels bring the pain without getting hurt in return. Tau can force-multiply like nobody's business, and the force they're multiplying is pretty damned efficient to begin with.

Really? the ghostkeel who has -1 to BS if moving due to heavy weapons (and starting at mere BS3) and his guns did not get better the slightest, his duability hardly improved, and his cost skyrockted? they "bring on the pain without getting hurt"?
Force multiply like nobofy's buisness? you mean the markerlights that reroll 1s? or the TL that rerolls 1? or the ethreal that rerolls 1? or the commander that rerolls 1?
Yea, reroll 1s from many sources. really helpful. its like hatred in CSM 6th/7th, a joke.

[Vaz]

Considering the rules design team and the model design team barely co-operate, I really doubt there's that much coordination going on. I don't think GW is even capable of these grand schemes some people accuse them of, as if GW are led by the Illuminiati and not a bunch of nerdish weirdos working for a weirder company with arcane traditions and until recently a quite mad CEO.

Are you seriously equating to a CEO saying to his guys who make rules "I want this stock to sell well, how do I do it?" to being Illuminati?

If the rules were trash, you wouldn't be seeing multiple Wraithlords, and Necron Wraiths wouldn't be seen. Conversely, Assault Marine models and Devastators would be popular units - in the same way as they were in 7th when that ridiculous formation came out. In the same way as the Typhon is the most popular Horus Heresy tank, while the Cerberus is basically only ever seen on shop shelves or GW publicity shots.

[Grim Portent]

WYSIWYG question: would it be legit to consider the hole in the palm of the Dark Vengeance Helbrute to be a heavy flamer port? Since I have the 6E Dark Vengeance set just lying around anyway I thought might as well see what can be done with the models as is.

That is what is generally done in my experience, since neither Helbrute version has a flamer nozzle actually available. That said, not many of us field Helbrutes in my area.

[Brookshw]

Nids got a step up, but not sure enough of a step up, haven't seen anyone excited about them.

I'm glad to go on record for being generally happy w/ the improvement to nids overall. The tyranid hive is doing a lot of numbers crunching, scything talons in their many iterations are definitely in for the summer look!

[JNAProductions]

The issue with the Rule of One is that it doesn't scale. At all.

Let's say I play Orks. At 500 points, I run a Weirdboy (100), a blob of Boys (100), and a pimped out Meganob squad (300). (Points costs are not accurate, I'm just using them as an example.) Turn one, I cast Da Jump, and BAM! 60% of my army is in their face, turn one!

Now let's scale it up to 2,000 points. I still only get Da Jump once, so most I can send over is 15% of my army.

Or say I run GK. At 500 points, I can probably buff a good 40% of my army with a single cast. At 2,000? Maybe 20%, if I run a big ol' blog of Paladins.

I'm FINE with not being able to buff the same percentage of my list at higher point values. I'm NOT fine with not being able to buff the same percentage total, if I spent the points on buff units.

Plus, this ONLY shafts psykers. You can have 101 Chaplains handing out their buffs, but two psykers? Lord no!

[lord_khaine]

Well.. i wont say that a game at 500 points are very telling. Warhammer has always been screwy at those low values. There is nothing new in that. And even there you dont need the presence or absence of psykers to mess things up there. presence or absence of heavy weapons could do that as well.

And yes no doubt GW could have made a better scaled rule. Instead we get something simple and practical, thats no doubt balanced for whatever is GW's recomended point value. Is is course true that characters are not limited in the same way. But i really dont think you can compare the minor buffs most leaders hand out in a small radiums to what some psykers can do.

[JNAProductions]

Well.. i wont say that a game at 500 points are very telling. Warhammer has always been screwy at those low values. There is nothing new in that. And even there you dont need the presence or absence of psykers to mess things up there. presence or absence of heavy weapons could do that as well.

And yes no doubt GW could have made a better scaled rule. Instead we get something simple and practical, thats no doubt balanced for whatever is GW's recomended point value. Is is course true that characters are not limited in the same way. But i really dont think you can compare the minor buffs most leaders hand out in a small radiums to what some psykers can do.

I guess that's true.

Psykers just seem so freaking bland now, though. There's no character to them, and not much tactics.

[Brookshw]

Does anyone know if there are any requirements re: base sizes? They removed any obligation in 7e, but I don't know if it was restored in 8.

[lord_khaine]

I guess that's true.

Psykers just seem so freaking bland now, though. There's no character to them, and not much tactics.

Oh i cant argue with this, psykers are right now a pale shadow of what they used to be. But it was kinda needed, the previous psyker rules had grown into a horrible mess. They did need to be cut sharply. And its not like i dont feel this keenly myself. My main army has always been Eldars. Psykers have been a core part of them from the start.

But i am hopeful because the current set of rules, are a really good foundation to build upon in later army books

[JNAProductions]

Oh i cant argue with this, psykers are right now a pale shadow of what they used to be. But it was kinda needed, the previous psyker rules had grown into a horrible mess. They did need to be cut sharply. And its not like i dont feel this keenly myself. My main army has always been Eldars. Psykers have been a core part of them from the start.

But i am hopeful because the current set of rules, are a really good foundation to build upon in later army books

I agree that pyskers needed to be toned down. But they went too far.

Just, general question-does anyone else feel like 8th edition is kinda half-baked right now?

[Lost Demiurge]

Of course they're half-baked.

GW pulled off the monumental task of updating EVERYTHING all at once, for the rules shift. There's gonna be parts that don't quite fit, don't work as intended, or are less than optimal in the grand scheme of things.

But the core rules are much simplified and reasonably solid, you can plop stuff on the table and get a halfway-decent game out of it, and no model was left behind. So on the whole, I'll take it.

[Requizen]

Yeah, it's not as complex as before, but it's not super dumbed down. I think Psykers will be fine if Codices give larger tables to choose from, but I'm personally quite happy with the Rule of One and weaker powers. As an army with no Psykers and no real way to get similar effects, sometimes it just felt like playing against an opponent with superpowers that I just had no access to, especially if they made multiple units Invisible or started spouting out other buffs left and right. I'd rather it feel toned down than completely insane.

It's odd, everything feels toned down now, but also everything dies in the game. Probably mostly due to the new AP system and lack of stacked defenses. I'm seeing a lot more games where most models die, despite most people talking about how their shooting got worse overall or stayed mostly the same.

Mostly the broken things all got toned down, and it feels harsh for nearly every army, but overall the state of the game feels... good. Fun. Lots of stuff is the same (I'm still using Wraiths and Destroyers), but there's also more things mixed in because the gap between a good unit and a "meta unit" feels so much smaller now.

Of course I'm sure that'll change in 2 months.

[Drasius]

My issue is that they (as usual) overdid the nerfing. Sure, if we had kept invis and endurance and shriek as they were, then you could quite easily have said rule of 1 is a good thing, alternately, if you're going to nerf everything down to pyromancy levels of uselessness, then let us spam powers. If you're going to do both, then you damn well better give psychic heavy factions the same level of power selection as they used to have because going from 49 different available spells in the BRB alone down to smite and 3 others (sometimes 6 others depending on faction) really just doesn't cut it.

"Here, now you can choose your spells, just like you wanted" doesn't really mean much when you go from spoiled for choice, even if there is a very clear "best" to 1 psycher can know literally every power available to a faction and any other psychers are useless and most powers suck. Can you imagine Ford suddenly only offering a Fiesta in flat brown as the sole choice of car for sale?

Maybe it's just because my primary army that has been so terrible for so long just became playable and has now had everything that makes them special taken away while their unique unit are just worse sternguard, not to mention the severe nerfing that my other armies have copped. I'll wait for the new chaos dex to come out before I make final judgement, but this might be the straw that breaks the camels back as I can't see myself playing again until it's fixed. I'll probably still paint, but given my insane backlog, GW won't be seeing any money out of me for a looooong time.

[JNAProductions]

Or, as someone put it on Dakka Dakka, what if shooting worked like psychics?

There are four guns-Bolters, Plasma Guns, Lascannons, and Meltas.

You can only fire one Plasma Gun, Lascannon, or Melta per turn, but you can fire as many Bolters as you like.

People would go APE over that, and abandon the game in droves if they simplified it that much. Now, I'm okay with the psychic phase being made simpler. I'm even okay with it having less diversity than the shooting phase-less armies use psychic than shooting, after all. But it is far, FAR too bland, nerfed, and stupid.

And there's some real glaring things-Thousand Sons, who's whole shtick is sorcery, have less powers than Death Guard. The hell?

[DaedalusMkV]

And there's some real glaring things-Thousand Sons, who's whole shtick is sorcery, have less powers than Death Guard. The hell?

They do not, actually. Death Guard replace access to Dark Hereticus with their unique powers. They don't get access to both.

I will agree that there should be a few more choices for Powers. I hope we see it go to at least 6 options per Psyker once the real books come out. Just like unique Warlord Traits and Relics, it's something that will help the feel of the game a lot.