Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[JNAProductions]

They do not, actually. Death Guard replace access to Dark Hereticus with their unique powers. They don't get access to both.

I will agree that there should be a few more choices for Powers. I hope we see it go to at least 6 options per Psyker once the real books come out. Just like unique Warlord Traits and Relics, it's something that will help the feel of the game a lot.

Oh, okay. Still-Death Guard are probably gonna be okay. The only reason I used so many Psykers in my 7th edition list is because Psykers were really good, not because fluff mandated it.

Thousand Sons still get the shaft.

[Forum Explorer]

I guess that's true.

Psykers just seem so freaking bland now, though. There's no character to them, and not much tactics.

Eh, it's about the same as it was in 5th. Less options, but that's to be expected with the mass update.

As someone who utterly despised psychic powers in 6th and 7th, I'm feeling much better about the new powers. No more random powers, and nothing really game breaking like Invisibility or Worldscape was? Or the whole 'I spend 15 minutes buffing my units to nigh invincibility. You can't stop it.' being gone? Yes, please! The nerf was both necessary and worth it.

[Renegade Paladin]

I never used psykers in 5th. I only started in 6th so I wouldn't be wasting an entire phase of the game and, by the by, be helpless against other psykers. This is the same reason I'll still run a psyker in 8th, but my lists don't live or die by them.

[Tome]

Having played a tzeentch army in AoS I can say this: the rule of one isn't too bad, so long as you have enough powers to choose from. I have 12 spells to pick from and it generally feels okay running 4-7 wizards, even though AoS lacks any exceptions even for the generic smite equivalent.

It probably does help that in AoS almost every wizard has a unique spell in addition to the generic ones and their pick off their faction's list.

Things should feel a bit bit once the codexes hit.

Not sure why they didn't put out some generic, low-powered disciplines for everyone to pick from though.

[Renegade Paladin]

Preview of the Spartan and Brass Scorpion datasheets.

I'm honestly kind of surprised that Assault Vehicle didn't make it into the new edition in some form. Dropping dudes in peoples' faces was the Land Raider's (and Spartan's) entire schtick, but it seems they're as limited as everyone else in the form of passengers having to disembark before the move.

[lord_khaine]

Or, as someone put it on Dakka Dakka, what if shooting worked like psychics?

There are four guns-Bolters, Plasma Guns, Lascannons, and Meltas.

You can only fire one Plasma Gun, Lascannon, or Melta per turn, but you can fire as many Bolters as you like.

That is also a really, really silly What If though. It seems mainly designed to enrage people, and dont have any hold in reality.
I mean, what if the psychic fase were like the shooting fase? Except that they really are not. They are widely different in to many different points to bother mentioning them all.

[Requizen]

Having played a tzeentch army in AoS I can say this: the rule of one isn't too bad, so long as you have enough powers to choose from. I have 12 spells to pick from and it generally feels okay running 4-7 wizards, even though AoS lacks any exceptions even for the generic smite equivalent.

It probably does help that in AoS almost every wizard has a unique spell in addition to the generic ones and their pick off their faction's list.

Things should feel a bit bit once the codexes hit.

Not sure why they didn't put out some generic, low-powered disciplines for everyone to pick from though.

It's a good comparison to make. Late 2016, when the GHB was out but not the Tzeentch book, Tzeentch armies suffered from the Rule of 1. Once the book came out and they got disciplines, that alone was as massive a change as the Battalions (though maybe not as big as Skyfires).

[Cheesegear]

It's a good comparison to make. Late 2016, when the GHB was out but not the Tzeentch book, Tzeentch armies suffered from the Rule of 1. Once the book came out...

Once the book came out, Tzeentch became one of the most bulls* armies in the game, Rule of One and all.

[LansXero]

Anyone know what the Start Collecting boxes average to in points now with the new edition? Trying to get a 40k scene off the ground, so will probably start with small points games

[Mystic Muse]

Are Flying Hive Tyrants with Twin Linked Devourers still the only ones worth taking?

[Wraith]

Anyone know what the Start Collecting boxes average to in points now with the new edition? Trying to get a 40k scene off the ground, so will probably start with small points games

In 7th Edition? Between about 350 and 500, depending on the Faction in question.

In 8th? Not a clue, since we haven't seen any points values from the rulebook or Codices yet. Possibly a project for the Playground to look at when they're available - I think we did the same when the boxes first came out, and it was quite illuminating to see who was better or worse value per box.

[LeSwordfish]

For a brand new scene, though, particularly with 8th ed's "**** it, throw it in" attitude, you could honestly get away with just saying "everyone bring a Start Collecting box or equivalent."

[Cheesegear]

Anyone know what the Start Collecting boxes average to in points now with the new edition?

I'd probably go with the Power Levels, rather than points costs.

[Closet_Skeleton]

GW went from one to the other, and I'm not even bothered. Because regular, 'boring' Characters are now the ones to hand out buffs, rather than Psykers.

I remember 5th ed Blood Angels and the "I can take a officer but he's just a beat stick or I can take a record keeper who actually force multiplies" issue well.

Some psykers still hand out buffs and quite good ones.

I guess that's true.

Psykers just seem so freaking bland now, though. There's no character to them, and not much tactics.

7th ed's 'character' had no lore justification what so ever (despite being ripped off from fantasy where it did have one) so there's no flavour lost, just a ton of pointless randomness.

Are Flying Hive Tyrants with Twin Linked Devourers still the only ones worth taking?

Twin linked devourers are now the worst thing to take on a hive tyrant because deathspitters are outright better for a tiny points jump.

Flyrants are still the best but are basically just faster Tyrants like in 3rd-5th ed, they have no extra defensive ability (but can benefit from Tyrant Guard even though the Guard can't keep up).

Smash doesn't exist or have an equivalent so if your tyrant has no proper melee weapons it doesn't get an AP value and its attacks will be limited to dealing 1 wound in melee.

Two pairs of Scything Talons is probably the most powerful Tyrant load out. Boneword and Lashwhip really suck now but is cheap, twin bonesword are just worse talons.

[Brookshw]

Are Flying Hive Tyrants with Twin Linked Devourers still the only ones worth taking?

Massive Scything Talons are currently the leaders numbers wise. There's a dedicated thread to it on the tyranid hive, iirc there's some number crunching a few pages in.

[Voidhawk]

In 8th? Not a clue, since we haven't seen any points values from the rulebook or Codices yet. Possibly a project for the Playground to look at when they're available - I think we did the same when the boxes first came out, and it was quite illuminating to see who was better or worse value per box.

We have full leaks at this point.

Anyone know what the Start Collecting boxes average to in points now with the new edition? Trying to get a 40k scene off the ground, so will probably start with small points games

I agree with Cheesegear, if you're trying to get newbies in at the ground floor Power Level is probably the way to go. 20 points roughly equal 1 power (rounding up), though it varies slightly from army to army. Necrons for example have very few upgrades to take, so it's pretty much equivalent.

In fact, I may just go ahead and add them up myself:

Spoiler: Imperium

Show

Dark Imperium Primaris - Gravis Captain, 1 Ancient, 2 Lieutenants, 3 Inceptors, 5 Hellblasters, 10 Intercessors - 51
Space Marines - Terminator Captain, Venerable Dread, 10 Marines - 25
Blood Angels - Terminator Captain, Baal Predator, 10 Marines - 25
Space Wolves - Wolf Lord, 3 Thunderwolves, 10 Marines - 27
Deathwatch - Watch Captain Artemis, Venerable Dread, 10 Marines - 34

Skitarii - Techpriest Dominus, Onager Dunecrawler, 10 Rangers/Vanguard - 21
Imperial Guard - Commissar, Lemen Russ, Heavy Weapons Team, 10 Guardsmen/Veterans - 16/19
Militarum Tempestus - Commissar, Tempestor Prime, Command Squad, Taurox Prime, 5 Scions - 16

Spoiler: Chaos

Show

Dark Imperium Nurgle - Lord of Contagion, Blightbringer, Plague Caster, Bloat Drone, 7 Death Gaurd, 20 Poxwalkers - 44
Chaos Marines - Terminator Lord, Hellbrute, 10 Marines - 24
Daemons of Tzeentch - Herald of Tzeentch, Burning Chariot, 3 Screamers, 3 Flamers, 10 Pink Horrors - 24
Daemons of Khorne - Herald on Blood Throne, 3 Bloodcrushers, 10 Bloodletters - 19
Daemons of Nurgle - Herald of Nurgle, 3 Plague Drones, 3 Nurglings, 10 Plague Bearers - 19

Spoiler: Xenos

Show

Craftworld Eldar - Farseer on Bike, Fire Prism, 3 Jetbikes - 23
Dark Eldar - Archon, 3 Reaver Jetbikes, Raider, 10 Kabalite Warriors - 20
Necrons - Overlord, Triarch Stalker, 3 Scarabs, 10 Warriors - 23

Tau Empire - Ethereal, 3 Crisis Suits, 10 Firewarriors, 8 Drones - 22
Orks - Painboy, 5 Nobz, Deff Dread, 11 Boyz - 28
Tyranids - Walking Tyrant, 3 Warriors, 10 Gargoyles - 19

Of course Power/Points has never mapped 1-to-1 with effectiveness, which is compounded at this early stage because it's not entirely certain what effective even means. Now is not a good time to buy into the hobby, because you can't be sure that the models you're buying will see more than one battle on the tabletop. And even the most clued-in grognard can't give newbies decent advice, because everything has gone out the window. Check back in a couple of months once the meta has shaken out.

[LeSwordfish]

I poked through the rulebooks looking for this when in-store today, but didn't find anything: is there any benefit to being Jet Pack over merely Flying? I'm wondering if my Night Lords can pull off Deep-Strike-And-Charge or will they have to walk like suckers?

[JNAProductions]

So, I did a little math.

Pimped out Knight Crusader is 611 points, PL 27.
Pimped out Renegade Knight is 616 points, PL 23.

[Requizen]

Oh man, I really am not as jazzed about the thematics of a mass Scarab army as I am other things, but they (hilariously) are by and far one of the best units in the army list. And you can fit 6 units of 6 in the Outrider detachment. Beware the bugs!

[Voidhawk]

Oh man, I really am not as jazzed about the thematics of a mass Scarab army as I am other things, but they (hilariously) are by and far one of the best units in the army list. And you can fit 6 units of 6 in the Outrider detachment. Beware the bugs!

What makes them that good? Wounding on 5s against everything is nice, but with no AP and Dmg 1 they're going to only be tickling alot of stuff.

[Drasius]

I poked through the rulebooks looking for this when in-store today, but didn't find anything: is there any benefit to being Jet Pack over merely Flying? I'm wondering if my Night Lords can pull off Deep-Strike-And-Charge or will they have to walk like suckers?

No, there's no benefit to being Jet-pack yet (or did you mean jump pack?). Everyone can charge out of DS (or outflank) though, unless specified otherwise.

If you did mean jump pack, then the benefit is moving double the normal move distance (ie. 12" move instead of 6") while not being as many points as a bike or other exotic mount.

[Requizen]

What makes them that good? Wounding on 5s against everything is nice, but with no AP and Dmg 1 they're going to only be tickling alot of stuff.

They're only 13 points a model. Sure, T3 with 5+, but that's W3 per model, 39 points for a 9 wound min squad. The removal of "S double T = instadeath" was huge for them. While they're extremely easy to hurt, your opponent doesn't particularly want to shoot multi-damage guns at them, because they're 13 PPM and a lascannon will only kill one (and 1/3 of the time not even that). Two damage guns like Plasmas require two shots to kill a single base. And you can spam the crap out of them with Outrider detachments giving you 6 FA slots each.

So fast, cheap, spammable. For the price of one full unit of Wraiths, you get 51 Scarab wounds. The most bubble wrap of bubble wraps.

And point for point, they actually do similar damage to Wraiths. Sure, they'll die as they get across the table, but once you get there, you can tie up a bunch of units and force fire on distraction bugs instead of useful things. While yes, Warriors get guns instead, get buffed by Characters, and can stand back up, these guys move double the speed and have triple the wounds.

What are you going to do, shoot Plasma Cannons at 4 Scarab bases? Well, you kind of have to. Otherwise you can't shoot at that Nightbringer/Deciever/DLord/Orikan standing right behind them. They're essentially filling the role they do in the fluff: there's a million of them and they drown the enemy in bodies before the actual important units show up.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I'm not sure how intentional these things are, but it is kinda cool how the role of certain units is changing to better represent the fluff on it. I'm pretty sure it's just luck when it happens though, I don't trust GW to do that on purpose...

[lord_khaine]

So fast, cheap, spammable. For the price of one full unit of Wraiths, you get 51 Scarab wounds. The most bubble wrap of bubble wraps.

Alright im certainly getting sold on the idea. Thats an insanely high amouth of wounds to chew though. How many wounds wound a full unit of 10 space Marines pick off them i wonder. And how many points is it now a SP is in comparison?

[Blackhawk748]

So i've been hanging out on Daka talking about Ork stuff, and franky, Stomrboyz are just better than normal boyz in virtually every way.

The can Advance and Charge (at a risk) without a warboss, they have 12 move, and can still be taken in Mobz of 30. The only real downsides is no Shootas (and im not even sure if Shootas are actually worth it), they don't get +1 attack at 20+ models, and they will outrun a Nob Banner carrier. With the loss of 'eavy Armor and the fact that you can take just Stormboyz, people are seriously deating about running a Rokkit Tide.

This goes pretty much ditto for Kommandoes, their biggest downside is that they are in much smaller mobs, but they can just show up wherever they want and charge someone.

I dont see Boyz getting a ton of use this Ed.

[Requizen]

So i've been hanging out on Daka talking about Ork stuff, and franky, Stomrboyz are just better than normal boyz in virtually every way.

The can Advance and Charge (at a risk) without a warboss, they have 12 move, and can still be taken in Mobz of 30. The only real downsides is no Shootas (and im not even sure if Shootas are actually worth it), they don't get +1 attack at 20+ models, and they will outrun a Nob Banner carrier. With the loss of 'eavy Armor and the fact that you can take just Stormboyz, people are seriously deating about running a Rokkit Tide.

This goes pretty much ditto for Kommandoes, their biggest downside is that they are in much smaller mobs, but they can just show up wherever they want and charge someone.

I dont see Boyz getting a ton of use this Ed.

What are the point differences? Boyz have always been sorta focused on being as cheap as possible.

[Blackhawk748]

What are the point differences? Boyz have always been sorta focused on being as cheap as possible.

3 points. Its incredibly minor for how fast Stormboyz are in comparison. I mean, we took Boyz last Ed cuz of Painboyz mostly, and those arent worth the points anymore and cover doesnt do jack for us, so may as well go for pure speed and get stuck in ASAP.

[Cheesegear]

The thing is; Elites, Fast and Heavy units have nearly always been better than Troops units. The difference is, until now, it's been 'Only Troops can Score.' or 7th Ed.'s 'Lose Objective Secured and also pay more points.' and not spamming Troops in 7th actually increased your chance of losing.

8th Ed. doesn't have those things - yet. So if your Troops don't do anything special, then don't take them. It applies to all armies. Not just Orks.

How do you win? You used to do it by spamming Troops/ObSec. Neither of those things matter anymore.

[Blackhawk748]

The really weird thing is, is that Guard Heavy Weapon Squads with a HB are like 12 points (and they still have their Lasguns), and you can spam the ever loving crap out of those. Seriously, 8th is the edition of spam so far.

[Turalisj]

The really weird thing is, is that Guard Heavy Weapon Squads with a HB are like 12 points (and they still have their Lasguns), and you can spam the ever loving crap out of those. Seriously, 8th is the edition of spam so far.

Almost like they want to sell more models.

Good thing I have just about all I need for my tau list.