Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[Requizen]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/t...5#entry4755729

Lots of info. Primaris points are in there too. So it looks like the points for a model and the points for a weapon are separate, even if it's the "stock" weapon for that model. Which will make calculating points... interesting.

Also, Plasma has new rules, or at least the Primaris version does.

Perils of the Warp is double 1s or double 6s, d3 mortal wounds.

Transport rules are there in full, as are all phase rules.

[Theodoric]

Also, Plasma has new rules, or at least the Primaris version does.

I hope it'll be universal (a bit like Ion weapons, probably), currently plasma weapons on some units are almost a bigger threat to their bearers than to the enemy, despite a premium cost.

[Renegade Paladin]

Man, Perils of the Warp got a lot nastier.

[boomwolf]

Oh, that side view of the Plasma Incinirator.

If anyone STILL had doubts Cawl is outright copying Tau tech, there you go. that's practically a hybrid of classic SM plasma rifle and the Tau battlesuit plasma rifle.
The flying dudes, probably based on tau battlesuit tech as well.


I wonder how the more xenophobe factions in the IoM will react to his obvious heresy once they find out.
The revelation that the "new marines" are made via xeno tech might lead to a new civil war.



The interceptors looks brutal on the field though. 10 movement, powerful guns and possible mortal wounds on the charge. yikes.

PPM is revealed to be VERY gradual, and far less "clean numbers" than even 7th has been, both a positive and a negative.
Hellblaster team members for some reason cheaper than intercessor on a glance, until you realize they also need to pay for the gun-and that jumps the price tag a lot.
Compared to known tactical SM cost of 13, I'm not sold on intercessors for 24 being all that hot.
And the scary interceptors clock at a wooping 53 a piece. That's a crisis suit.



Ok the bright side, we can see that the numarines are not going to be "must haves". guys are expensive, very much so at times. (hellblaster clocks at 40 each!)



Overall, after this leak, my stance on 8th shifts from "careful optimism" to "slightly excited"

[RagingBluMunky]

I'm actually kinda upset about the inceptors. I feel like they completely obsolete assault squads. Compared​ to a 5 man assault squad, they have higher​ toughness, more wounds, a ridiculous amount of shooting (six shots per marine!), and only lose 4 attacks. So it seems to me that unless assault squads keep their 12 inch move, are significantly cheaper, and also have the crushing charge and meteoric descent rules, there doesn't seem to be much point in taking them.

Am I blowing this out of proportion, or is this ridiculous?

[Drasius]

I just went to the webstore to check Guard and about had a heart attack. Nothing seems to have changed force organization-wise, but everything was double the price.

Then I realized it had reset itself to deliver to Australia for some reason. Guys, I am so, so sorry you have to deal with that.

Checking exchange rates, $1.00 USD = $1.34 AUD, but a Leman Russ costs $49.50 in the United States and $98 in Australia. How does anyone down there actually play this game?

Check some of the (physically) big stuff like WK and defilers. Last time I checked they were actually cheaper here than the US. Having said that, IIRC, a soul grinder is significantly more here than the US. There's no consistancy in how or why we're horribly over charged for things. We certainly do get screwed on most things though.

As for points costs, yeah, the inceptors are pricy, but you have to remember that they're ASM wielding 2 heavy bolters that can fire both after jumping and running and have no scatter deepstrike available to them and have 2W each. That's worthy of being a bunch of points. I am sad that they "fixed" ASM by giving them a bunch of shooting weapons rather than making them capable in melee though. I always loved the ASM models and the idea of marines running (or jumping) around with chainswords hacking into the enemy.

I like that plasma not only has managed to fix the overheating problem, but also kept the flavour of gets hot!, though I do question the +1 str and +1 damage as it seems to be a bit of a no-brainer to wind them up against anything with multiple wounds or T8+. Still, they are 17 points and the firing model is slain outright, regardless of wounds if they roll that 1, so it'll be far more dangerous for the primaris marines compared to regular 1W marines using plasma. I wonder if this change is just for the new marines plasma incinerators or if it's for regular plasma guns too?

[boomwolf]

I'm actually kinda upset about the inceptors. I feel like they completely obsolete assault squads. Compared​ to a 5 man assault squad, they have higher​ toughness, more wounds, a ridiculous amount of shooting (six shots per marine!), and only lose 4 attacks. So it seems to me that unless assault squads keep their 12 inch move, are significantly cheaper, and also have the crushing charge and meteoric descent rules, there doesn't seem to be much point in taking them.

Am I blowing this out of proportion, or is this ridiculous?

Considering these guys are 53 each, and assault marines probably share the speed and deepstrike, probably, yes.
Especially considering 8th is supposed to rebalance things, and current assault marines are already absolute by bikes (unless you play one the wildest 3d table)

Compare them to bikes, not assault marines.
When compared to bikes, they are questionable.
Just like the intercesstors compared to the much cheaper tactical squads.

Numarines are expensive as hell.

[DaedalusMkV]

I'm actually kinda upset about the inceptors. I feel like they completely obsolete assault squads. Compared​ to a 5 man assault squad, they have higher​ toughness, more wounds, a ridiculous amount of shooting (six shots per marine!), and only lose 4 attacks. So it seems to me that unless assault squads keep their 12 inch move, are significantly cheaper, and also have the crushing charge and meteoric descent rules, there doesn't seem to be much point in taking them.

Am I blowing this out of proportion, or is this ridiculous?

Assuming Assault Marines wind up around 16-17 ppm, you can't really directly compare them. 5 Assault Marines under said rules come out to a smidge over 80 points, compared to ~160 points for three Inceptors. You should be comparing 8-10 ASM to three Inceptors, where you'll see the Marines have more Wounds, way more CC attacks (more than double, in fact), less vulnerability to multi-wound and high-S attacks and access to Special Weapons and specialist melee weapons.

In short, Inceptors are in no way a replacement for ASM. They shoot way harder than ASM, at least against infantry, but they'll have nowhere near the staying power in CC that the much more numerous normal Marines will be able to bring to the table. Plus, they can't shoot their guns in melee, while ASM can. That probably counts for something too.

[Drasius]

I'm actually kinda upset about the inceptors. I feel like they completely obsolete assault squads. Compared​ to a 5 man assault squad, they have higher​ toughness, more wounds, a ridiculous amount of shooting (six shots per marine!), and only lose 4 attacks. So it seems to me that unless assault squads keep their 12 inch move, are significantly cheaper, and also have the crushing charge and meteoric descent rules, there doesn't seem to be much point in taking them.

Am I blowing this out of proportion, or is this ridiculous?

Given that everything with deep strike we've seen so far has the no scatter, place outside of 9" from enemy rules, I'd put money on that being the new standard for mid game arrival. Also, ASM will be able to fire their pistols in CC (only in their shooting phase, so it's not as good as it sounds) and given that the inceptors are 53ppm while regular tacticals are 13ppm, you'd assume that regular ASM are only going to be a few more points than regular marines. Plus the reduced move is a thing common to new marines while all of the older marines have kept their 6" move, so once again, the smart money would suggest that ASM will be moving 12".

In other words, yes, I think you're blowing things way out of proportion. I'd be more worried about the fact that a squad of inceptors is basically 10 heavy bolters with the ability to move 10" (or DS) and fire with no penalty, cause that's rough considering how good str5 ap-1 is going to be. It IS 265 points for a squad though, and that seems like a lot when a marine is 13ppm. Still, if you could have 10x heavy bolters in a 10 man dev squad, that'd be 230 points and you'd have the same number of shots and the same number of wounds but double the range but no ability to DS or move + shoot (or possibly move + run + shoot from what I understand about assault weapons). Assuming that ASM remain roughly the same points, a 10 man squad of ASM with a veteran sarge, power fist, 2x evicerators and a pair of flamers will run you around 265'ish points (assuming they can still take all of that). If I wanted to hit stuff in combat, I'd still take the ASM for the same price, but yeah, it's hard to pass up 30 heavy bolter shots for the same price when they have better str, better ap and don't have to be hit back in the assault phase.

Edit: Beaten like a Schola orphan.

Also, I made a whoopsie since I read the chart wrong and thought that you could have 5 iceptors in a squad. Numbers still hold true for comparisons on points though and it should be easy to take 2 squads if reuired since traditionally FA has been a fairly uncompetative slot.

Double Edit: Physcic phase rules for those who want a more wordy view:



Triple Edit: Transports. That disembark rule seems like a fantastic reason to go back to 28mm bases for large squads. Not loving the roll a 1 and you're dead rule either, but hey, about time transports had a drawback.

[Renegade Paladin]

So, I know 7th edition lists are going to become irrelevant here in about three weeks, but I have a game to play on Sunday that isn't waiting for 8th.

Spoiler: 2500 points vs. HH Imperial Fists

Show

2500 points

Tank Commander - 380
-Vanquisher commander (Warlord)
--Lascannon
--Kabe's Herald
-Executioner
--Plasma cannons

Primaris Psyker - 75
-Mastery Level 2

Ministorum Priest - 25

Enginseer - 60
-Two servitors

Infantry Platoon - 240
-Platoon Command Squad
--Vox-caster
--Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Infantry Squad
--Vox-caster
--Lascannon, flamer, melta bombs
-Infantry Squad\
--Lascannon, flamer, power axe

Veterans - 155
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Chimera - 65
--Heavy flamer

Veterans - 155
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Chimera - 65
--Heavy flamer

Militarum Tempestus Scions - 100
-Two plasma guns

Sly Marbo - 25

Hellhound - 125

Tauros - 45
-Tauros grenade launcher

Leman Russ Squadron - 300
-Two Battle Tanks

Wyvern - 65

Heavy Artillery Carriage Battery - 75
-Earthshaker cannon

Aegis Defense Line - 100
-Quad gun

Baneblade - 575
-Sponsons

I just took an existing 1850 list and tacked stuff on. I could probably build it better as a cohesive whole, but eh.

The heavy artillery battery is contingent on me getting said artillery piece tomorrow; otherwise I'll have to stick something else in. I'm avoiding flyers because he says he doesn't have any. The Baneblade is in there just to fill points; it replaces the Shadowsword from the 1850 tournament list to be more sporting. The Tauros, similarly, fills a 45 point hole I had at the end because it costs that much and I almost never use it.

Given I'm facing a low number of elite Marines, it would probably be more efficient to just drop the Baneblade and spam 500 points worth of storm troopers (which I can do), but I don't want to tailor too hard. Any thoughts, in light of the fact this is going into a game of 30k? (If it wasn't, I wouldn't bother asking at this late date in the edition.)

[Drasius]

So, I know 7th edition lists are going to become irrelevant here in about three weeks, but I have a game to play on Sunday that isn't waiting for 8th.

Spoiler: 2500 points vs. HH Imperial Fists

Show

2500 points

Tank Commander - 380
-Vanquisher commander (Warlord)
--Lascannon
--Kabe's Herald
-Executioner
--Plasma cannons

Primaris Psyker - 75
-Mastery Level 2

Ministorum Priest - 25

Enginseer - 60
-Two servitors

Infantry Platoon - 240
-Platoon Command Squad
--Vox-caster
--Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Infantry Squad
--Vox-caster
--Lascannon, flamer, melta bombs
-Infantry Squad\
--Lascannon, flamer, power axe

Veterans - 155
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Chimera - 65
--Heavy flamer

Veterans - 155
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Chimera - 65
--Heavy flamer

Militarum Tempestus Scions - 100
-Two plasma guns

Sly Marbo - 25

Hellhound - 125

Tauros - 45
-Tauros grenade launcher

Leman Russ Squadron - 300
-Two Battle Tanks

Wyvern - 65

Heavy Artillery Carriage Battery - 75
-Earthshaker cannon

Aegis Defense Line - 100
-Quad gun

Baneblade - 575
-Sponsons

I just took an existing 1850 list and tacked stuff on. I could probably build it better as a cohesive whole, but eh.

The heavy artillery battery is contingent on me getting said artillery piece tomorrow; otherwise I'll have to stick something else in. I'm avoiding flyers because he says he doesn't have any. The Baneblade is in there just to fill points; it replaces the Shadowsword from the 1850 tournament list to be more sporting. The Tauros, similarly, fills a 45 point hole I had at the end because it costs that much and I almost never use it.

Given I'm facing a low number of elite Marines, it would probably be more efficient to just drop the Baneblade and spam 500 points worth of storm troopers (which I can do), but I don't want to tailor too hard. Any thoughts, in light of the fact this is going into a game of 30k? (If it wasn't, I wouldn't bother asking at this late date in the edition.)

How are you getting Marbo in there?

Also, the only thing you've got that can realistically hurt the spartan that he will almost certainly have is the Vanquisher and unless you're super lucky, it's not going to stop it before it gets where it's going. Be prepared to get ~10 terminators and a combat chapter master equivalent shoved down your throat turn 2. You should have enough guardsmen to simply let him kill a unit a turn (assuming you can avoid too many multi charges) and pewpew the remainder of his forces down.

[RagingBluMunky]

That does make me feel a bit better, thanks to all of you who set me straight on that.

While I still don't think Primaris Marines are at all necessary, at least I'm over my scenery chewing about Inceptors.

[Renegade Paladin]

How are you getting Marbo in there?

Like this. He's mainly in there because this will be my last game of 7th, and they threw that in as a sop to a guy who hounded them on Facebook to bring back Marbo in every post they made. There's no guarantee he'll make the jump to 8th.

Also, the only thing you've got that can realistically hurt the spartan that he will almost certainly have is the Vanquisher and unless you're super lucky, it's not going to stop it before it gets where it's going. Be prepared to get ~10 terminators and a combat chapter master equivalent shoved down your throat turn 2. You should have enough guardsmen to simply let him kill a unit a turn (assuming you can avoid too many multi charges) and pewpew the remainder of his forces down.

So you think I should swap back to the Shadowsword and just blow it to bits? There are lascannons in the list as well, though I recognize that individually their odds aren't good.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

What slightly annoys me about the Primaris is that the Gravis keyword seems to give Inceptors and the Captain T5. Loyalists shouldn't get refluffed Marks of Nurgle damnit.

Also Inceptors look like insane mobile gun platforms. Jump infantry dual wielding assault 18" heavy bolters?

[Saambell]

So a few things I have in response to some stuff. Mortal wounds are, if the same as AoS, auto hit auto wound no save. The first two may be an issue, but that last bit I laugh at. ANY guard or swarm nid player finds people complaining about no saves hilarious. And for the Jump Heavy Bolters, its horrible when marines get it, but Tau have been running around with always cool plasma guns on their suits for years now and that's fine?

Also, its way too late now with 7th ending in a few weeks, but can someone point me to the rule that Jetpack Infantry move 12"? Cause for all I can wrap my head around it, they seem to move only 6" but get a pseudo run in the assault phase.

There's hints there that psykers will often come with pre set powers, while there seem to be a few that still roll for random. It also seems that the only way to stop a power is to have a psyker of your own. Really hope Necrons and Tau get some replacement or such to fill in that needed spot. Some kind of warp disrupter or such.

[Theodoric]

Also, its way too late now with 7th ending in a few weeks, but can someone point me to the rule that Jetpack Infantry move 12"? Cause for all I can wrap my head around it, they seem to move only 6" but get a pseudo run in the assault phase.

Jump pack infantry move 12", jet pack infantry can jet-jump in the assault phase. In 7e Jet Pack infantry like Tau Battlesuits sacrifice direct speed for maneuverability.

Also Inceptors look like insane mobile gun platforms. Jump infantry dual wielding assault 18" heavy bolters?

Totally not fake-Battlesuits, no.

Yeah, Primaris marines seem pretty decent if a bit specialised and rather vulnerable to heavy artillery. The Gravis suits' S5 helps a lot against things like Earthshaker and Battle cannon, though.

[lord_khaine]

So a few things I have in response to some stuff. Mortal wounds are, if the same as AoS, auto hit auto wound no save. The first two may be an issue, but that last bit I laugh at. ANY guard or swarm nid player finds people complaining about no saves hilarious. And for the Jump Heavy Bolters, its horrible when marines get it, but Tau have been running around with always cool plasma guns on their suits for years now and that's fine?

Its IS horrible, because thats one of Tau's toys. Marines already have more of those than everyone else. And its understandable that people get upset when they still find time to steal others as well.

[Cheesegear]

but can someone point me to the rule that Jetpack Infantry move 12"?

That's not a rule that exists, which is probably why you can't find it.
Jump Packs (Rulebook, pg 65) and Jet Packs (Rulebook, pg 66) are different.

It also seems that the only way to stop a power is to have a psyker of your own. Really hope Necrons and Tau get some replacement or such to fill in that needed spot. Some kind of warp disrupter or such.

Wait. For. Abilities.
It's almost like we're being drip-fed information or something.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Crisis suits are not a problem in a vacuum (lol). Nor are Swooping Hawks or Scourges. But do Space Marines need to have them too? There's something to be said for differentiating factions by their unit choices. SM are not in any dire need of more options in any force org slot, far as I can tell (a bit late for that, I know). But now they get gun jumpers on top of their melee jumpers, while most factions have to make do with one or the other, assuming they have any jump infantry at all.

[Drasius]

What slightly annoys me about the Primaris is that the Gravis keyword seems to give Inceptors and the Captain T5. Loyalists shouldn't get refluffed Marks of Nurgle damnit.

Also Inceptors look like insane mobile gun platforms. Jump infantry dual wielding assault 18" heavy bolters?

Vanilla marines getting one of chaos' toys eh? Stop the freakin' presses.

Speaking of - Our blackshirt has the rulebook and indices and has played 5 small games of 8th at the sydney workshop and has let us know a bunch of info and everything sounds pretty rad. One thing he did mention was that marks of chaos don't do the thing anymore, rather, they're keywords just like in AoS for slaves to darkness and instead it's icons that do the thing, so it's entirely possible to have MoN marines with T4. Talk about the imperium stealing everything nice that chaos has!

Other notables that I remember:
- Swooping and gliding are still things for MC's with a seperate move characteristic
- Fliers and FMC's get either +1 armour or -1 to be hit (he couldn't remember which) but skyfire negates it
- Lascannons and Grav are both around the 48 point mark
- Grav is heavy 3 and has different profiles dependant on targets armour. if >4+, then wounds on 2's, -4 rend and does 3 wounds. If 4+ or worse, wounds on 4's, -2 rend and does d3 wounds
- No more primaris marines - What they've released so far is it (though he couldn't deny that there was scope for more releases in the near future once the marine codex comes out
- Apparently various bits and bobs work different for different sub-factions. IIRC the example given was that apothecaries had a different effect for different chapters
- Everyone gets their factions version of chapter tactics, but they're nowhere near as extensive as the traitor legions ones
- Angels of death and trator legions are both getting an 8th ed reprint & rework and will be among the first expansions released
- Confirmed that Tau can't add BS via markerlights and that it's 5! ML's to ignore soft cover and 6! ML's to ignore hard cover! Wow, talk about a big change! Apparently the focus has very much changed from ML's as main support to supporting fire as the main method of support.
- Riptides haven't changed much at all apparently and word is that not only does the HBC still get's hot, but that get's hot now works just like the new primaris marines plasma gun and flat out removes a model if it rolls a 1 on its gets hot weapons, so that's sobering news for sure!
- Ghostkeels are the new hotness, even more than before
- Land raiders are super sturdy with a 2+ and 20 wounds
- Stompa's have something absolutely silly like 48-50 wounds!
- Apparently something very similar to the old 3.5 ed/white dwarf faith system is back for sisters, who are apparently pretty brutal in 8th
- Almost all 7th ed D-weapons are just a flat 6 damage and never ignore invulnerables (same as the IK's chainsword)
- Sources of mortal wounds are super limited
- Psychers are no longer an auto-take, but are still effective without being game-changing or game breaking
- When all the managers played each other in their 5 game round-robin format, not a single army was tabled
- Apparently all the armies actually had their own flavour that could be felt when vs'ing them
- The eternal war missions are all different from the ones we have now with the randomly rolled secondaries all being different for each mission too (though limited to 3 different ones per mission)
- Most important of all, the games were both fun and very close

As the kids today would say, so hype!

Please keep in mind that the above points are all second hand from my local GW manager, but he has no reason to lie to us as we're all super-pumped for 8th anyway and he's always been truthful with us in the past when he's know something.

Edit:
- Apparently GK paladin's only have 2W but get bonus toughness or something to make them "special". Suck it draigostar fans.
- Not all DS is of the no scatter variety (which would make sense given the roll scatter and 2d6 vs target number theory we saw pop up a few weeks back).
- Apparently the Inceptors (the jump primaris ones) can go back into orbit and DS again next turn and their goofy looking harness is meant to help them survive re-entry

[LeSwordfish]

The points system seems... man, I'm not looking forward to having to add 98+48+13+32 etc etc for each unit in my head while my opponent stares at me like i'm in the wrong even though HE was the one who demanded we play 1750 when I only have a 1500 list prepared. On the one hand it's promising that they're thinking very precisely about balance, on the other I'm just cynical enough to wonder if this is because they don't want people to use this points system at all.

[Cheesegear]

One thing he did mention was that marks of chaos don't do the thing anymore, rather, they're keywords just like in AoS for slaves to darkness and instead it's icons that do the thing, so it's entirely possible to have MoN marines with T4. Talk about the imperium stealing everything nice that chaos has!

Except Khorne Bloodbound do the thing so hard.

No more primaris marines - What they've released so far is it (though he couldn't deny that there was scope for more releases in the near future once the marine codex comes out

Eh. Buy the new starter box, and you'll have pretty much everything you'll ever need.

Angels of death and trator legions are both getting an 8th ed reprint & rework and will be among the first expansions released

What's a Xeno?

Ghostkeels are the new hotness, even more than before

It's hard to imagine that GW would find a way to make them better, but that's what we all said about Eldar/6 to Eldar/7.

Land raiders are super sturdy with a 2+ and 20 wounds

That's...Hopeful.

Apparently something very similar to the old 3.5 ed/white dwarf faith system is back for sisters, who are apparently pretty brutal in 8th

We've been hearing that everything is awesome for a few weeks now.

Psychers are no longer an auto-take, but are still effective without being game-changing or game breaking

I also think it's a case of the new Perils rules being brutal. It's no longer a case of "lol, I rolled Super Saiyan.", it's "lol, I basically just killed myself." I'm sure Farseers will just ignore it.

Most important of all, the games were both fun and very close

...As played by Blackshirts taking 'cool' and 'fluffy' units instead of neckbeards throwing rocks at each other.

Please keep in mind that the above points are all second hand from my local GW manager, but he has no reason to lie to us...

Yes he does. Whether or not you believe him whole cloth is up to you.

[Tome]

Huh. I hope there's more to markerlights than that.

If we really are losing our ability to boost BS via markerlights, does this mean we can finally get some better BS on our veterans?

[Drasius]

Huh. I hope there's more to markerlights than that.

If we really are losing our ability to boost BS via markerlights, does this mean we can finally get some better BS on our veterans?

No, BS3 for everyone apparently. You can rr1's for 1 ML though (but you can't boost the rr's any firther than that. One would imagine you can still use seeker missiles at the cost of [x] ML's, though for how many I don't know since ignores cover isn't a thing anymore apparently. I'm still super surprised that they didn't got with the -1 cover for 1 or 2 ML's and be able to repeat ad nauseam like everyone has been asking for since 5 seconds after their 6th ed book.

As for Cheese, I'm not sure why you think our blackshirt would have a reason to lie to us. Every single one of us is hyped for 8th and everyone bar myself (I'm moving down south to keep Cheese company next week) is already slavering to put their pre-orders in for the rulbook and/or starter sets. We literally can't be anymore hyped than where we are at the moment and our sales are already assured yet none of us will be buying anything 40k related (beyond armageddon stuff) until 8th drops so I'm not seeing the point (but maybe I'm just being dense?).

[Theodoric]

As for Cheese, I'm not sure why you think our blackshirt would have a reason to lie to us. Every single one of us is hyped for 8th and everyone bar myself (I'm moving down south to keep Cheese company next week) is already slavering to put their pre-orders in for the rulbook and/or starter sets. We literally can't be anymore hyped than where we are at the moment and our sales are already assured yet none of us will be buying anything 40k related (beyond armageddon stuff) until 8th drops so I'm not seeing the point (but maybe I'm just being dense?).

Cheese plays in a hyper-competitive environment where doing anything sub-optimal results in defeat (so, he's not saying they're lying, just that they're not playing competitively). Think Mad Max but with miniatures. His idea of what's fun's maybe slightly different, though no less valid.

I personally can live with markerlights not boosting BS into the stratosphere. Things kind-of went a bit nuts in past edition, Tau already hit hard enough without them needing to be crack shots as well.

[Cheesegear]

As for Cheese, I'm not sure why you think our blackshirt would have a reason to lie to us.

Okay...'Lie' is the wrong word.
I believe that your Blackshirt believes what he's saying. My Blackshirt believes that Fyreslayers are worth buying - it doesn't mean he's right.

[Requizen]

Okay...'Lie' is the wrong word.
I believe that your Blackshirt believes what he's saying. My Blackshirt believes that Fyreslayers are worth buying - it doesn't mean he's right.

They are with the new points =)

Keep an eye on this post: https://www.warhammer-community.com/...est-live-blog/

Live blog from Warhammer World. Won't have everything I'm sure, will have to scour other blogs, but already has the Dataslates for most of the starter set models (Plague Marine boss looks dope, as does the Drone) and some pics.

[Drasius]

Cheese plays in a hyper-competitive environment where doing anything sub-optimal results in defeat (so, he's not saying they're lying, just that they're not playing competitively). Think Mad Max but with miniatures. His idea of what's fun's maybe slightly different, though no less valid.

I personally can live with markerlights not boosting BS into the stratosphere. Things kind-of went a bit nuts in past edition, Tau already hit hard enough without them needing to be crack shots as well.

My meta is about the same as Cheese's, I'm aware of this.

Not sure about how T'au Tau are going to shake out with the abillity to DS/outflank and charge, especially if interceptor is gone, doubly so if they're all BS3, even if the entire army can overwatch as often as it likes. The ability to retreat from combat and still fire is nigh irrelevant as given how killy everything is touted as being, I'm not sure there's going to be anything left to retreat. Still, waiting on points to make final judgement.

Okay...'Lie' is the wrong word.
I believe that your Blackshirt believes what he's saying. My Blackshirt believes that Fyreslayers are worth buying - it doesn't mean he's right.

Don't I recall you proving to him rather emphatically that they're not? Also: What they tell people who're thinking about buying stuff vs what they tell those of us who've been around a while and are already totally on board the hype train is two very different things (in my experience anyway). Having said that, our blackshirt does have some odd views on the power levels of various 40k armies, but then, he doesn't play 40k that much so the few of us who DO follow what's what just sort of roll our eyes when he tells us blatent lies his version of the meta.

My point is, even in scrub vs filthy casual games, not a single one ending in a tabling out of, what, 70-odd games is fairly noteworthy IMHO, especially since there's at least a few managers who I KNOW for fact are more than capable 40k players who were at that meeting and matching them vs casuals usually results in a turn 3 tabling on a bad day.

[Cheesegear]

Don't I recall you proving to him rather emphatically that they're not?

Well, yes. It doesn't mean he listened.

Having said that, our blackshirt does have some odd views on the power levels of various 40k armies, but then, he doesn't play 40k that much so the few of us who DO follow what's what just sort of roll our eyes when he tells us blatent lies his version of the meta.

...I have no words. It's what I would have said, but much nicer.
But basically, everytime my Blackshirt tells me something, I have to filter in much the same way.

My point is, even in scrub vs filthy casual games, not a single one ending in a tabling out of, what, 70-odd games is fairly noteworthy IMHO

Well, when you put it that way.

[LeSwordfish]

For what it's worth, my own Blackshirt definitely has "making a sale" mode and "talking to the regulars" mode.