Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[Requizen]

For what it's worth, my own Blackshirt definitely has "making a sale" mode and "talking to the regulars" mode.

As does mine. They're people, after all, and everybody talks differently to people they're just looking to sell to than they do people they consider friendly acquaintances or even friends.

[Blackhawk748]

*sigh* Oh look Nurgle cant have T5 anymore unless you take Plague Marines. Or they coulda just went back to what they where doing, which was to make the Mark just turn them into the Cult Marines, but thats to easy.

Anyway, Plaguewalkers look neat, except that save, my god is that save awful (its 7+ btw). The Contagion Lord is a brute, as he should be, and the Plaguemarines are, well Plague Marines. The Plague Knife is not impressive, the Sword is ok.

I find it weird that Plasma weapons are specifically on their upgrade list, but everything else is under the Special Weapons heading.

[Renegade Paladin]

On reflection, Drasius is right about ranged anti-armor, the Hellhound isn't going to do much to power armor anyway, and the quad-gun won't have flyers to shoot at. Revision:

Spoiler: 2500 List 2: Electric Boogaloo!

Show

2500 points

Tank Commander - 380
-Vanquisher commander (Warlord)
--Lascannon
--Kabe's Herald
-Executioner
--Plasma cannons

Primaris Psyker - 75
-Mastery Level 2

Ministorum Priest - 25

Enginseer - 60
-Two servitors

Infantry Platoon - 240
-Platoon Command Squad
--Vox-caster
--Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Infantry Squad
--Vox-caster
--Lascannon, flamer, melta bombs
-Infantry Squad
--Lascannon, flamer, power axe

Veterans - 155
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Chimera - 65
--Heavy flamer

Veterans - 155
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Chimera - 65
--Heavy flamer

Militarum Tempestus Scions - 100
-Two plasma guns

Sly Marbo - 25

Ratlings - 30

Devil Dog - 145
-Multimelta

Tauros - 45
-Tauros grenade launcher

Leman Russ Squadron - 300
-Two Battle Tanks

Wyvern - 65

Heavy Artillery Carriage Battery - 75
-Earthshaker cannon

Aegis Defense Line - 50

Baneblade - 575
-Sponsons

Short version: The quad gun went to pay for upgrading the Hellhound to a multimelta Devil Dog and filled out the other 30 points with Ratlings because nothing else costs 30 points. Alternatively, I could drop the Ratlings and Tauros to put another lascannon/flamer squad into the blob.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Whoops, totally missed the Live Blog stuff.

Is that Gabriel Angelos in one of the pictures? A legit miniature and not some kind of fan conversion? Which book/supplement is he in?

I kind of like the new "plasma" mechanic. It's far more deadly when it goes wrong, but now there's a safe mode which is still pretty strong. Which makes more sense than arming your specialist gunners with things that can kill them (both in crunch and fluff).

I guess the Poxwalkers 7+ armor save is meant to mean they normally have none but can still benefit from the new cover system. That's an interesting way to format it.

Also Genestealer Cult Faction Focus.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...stealer-cults/

They mention Cult Ambush, but it's unclear if that means keeping the current version verbatim. Seems to suggest that.

More Morale immunity shenanigans, courtesy of the Patriarch. Mass Hypnosis looks pretty fierce to lead into an assault, and even has applications when receiving one. Unquestioning Loyalty lets nearby minions give characters a 4+ save "to avoid taking a wound". I'm assuming that sequences the same as Disgustingly Resilient and a successful save kills said loyal minion.

You can take one Astra Militarum detachment per GSC detachment. That's interesting, but not too surprising.

Rockgrinder has some kind of 12" flamer, the possibility of demolition charges, and a pretty strong melee weapon. Without templates and scattering the only weakness of demo charges is their range (and the possibility of rolling low on shot number, but at S8 AP-3 Damage D3 is pretty alright).

[Renegade Paladin]

So, I read that lascannons are going to something like 48 points now. Makes me nervous; the majority of my heavy weapons teams are modeled with lascannons. Then again, the ability to split fire means I can sprinkle autocannons in there to save points and just shoot them at different things when faced with heavy armor.

You can take one Astra Militarum detachment per GSC detachment. That's interesting, but not too surprising.

That implies to me that Leman Russ hulls aren't a GSC option anymore, but we'll see.

[Blackhawk748]

So, I read that lascannons are going to something like 48 points now. Makes me nervous; the majority of my heavy weapons teams are modeled with lascannons. Then again, the ability to split fire means I can sprinkle autocannons in there to save points and just shoot them at different things when faced with heavy armor.

Ya, that seems really expensive to me. Im now concerned that my Mek Guns are going to get more expensive as well

[LeSwordfish]

Hopefully they'll have the sense to de-standardise the weapon costs, so BS4+ guardsmen don't pay the same amount for their heavy weapons as BS3+ Walking Tank primaris marines.

[boomwolf]

Take that blackshirt info dump with a huge pile of salt.
The main reason why I belive it's utter nonsense?
Tau markerlights take 5 to negate soft cover and 6 hard cover?
Forget the fact it's a silly number of lights per effect, 8th does not distinguish cover types!

[Blackhawk748]

Take that blackshirt info dump with a huge pile of salt.
The main reason why I belive it's utter nonsense?
Tau markerlights take 5 to negate soft cover and 6 hard cover?
Forget the fact it's a silly number of lights per effect, 8th does not distinguish cover types!

When i read that i went "So it takes an entire unit of Pathfinders to remove a +1 from cover? That feels insane"

Also while thinking about Ork's Plasma Weapons (Kustom Mega weapons) which have always been Str 8, im now kinda concerened that we wont be able to "turn off" Gets Hot and so ours will just always be on Super charged mode. Along this line of thought i just realized that a Marine now gets a 6+ save vs a Lascannon, which just feels wrong to me.

Edit: and while looking through my Ork Codex, i just realized that the bloody Marines have stolen Ork Dakkaguns and stuck them on their Interceptors. Knock it off you thieving bastards!!

[LeSwordfish]

Perhaps markerlights will no longer roll to hit?

[Blackhawk748]

Perhaps markerlights will no longer roll to hit?

They would almost have to in order to get those numbers, but then i ask: whats the point? I mean, you could have like 20 Pathfinders and eliminate cover on 4 units, or you could just have had more guns to shoot them in the first place. I know what my answer is.

[boomwolf]

Yep, it would render markerlights as utterly pointless.

But markerlights being pointless is possible, the fact he lists two different effects costing different marks-while the two different effects can't exist in 8th (because there is no "soft cover" and "hard cover", just "cover"), means that the entirety of what he said is suspicious.

One sentence of obvious wrongness in a pile puts everything under suspicion.

[lord_khaine]

Are we certain there is no such thing as soft or hard cover though? We have limited information on that subject. it could be there were more than 1 type of cover.

[Renegade Paladin]

All cover from craters to ruins that they've profiled so far has given +1 to the save. We haven't seen defense lines yet, though, so dedicated fortifications might be better.

[Drasius]

Steath and shrouded are still things, so it's entirely possible that's what he meant, but he's just framed it in armageddon terms because he's forgotten what they were called in 40k.

[Grim Portent]

New dreadnought chassis confirmed.

Spoiler

Show

I actually really like it. It looks more practical than the conventional one, but looks more like other Imperial stuff than the Contemptor and it's relatives look.

[Brookshw]

New dreadnought chassis confirmed.

Spoiler

Show

I actually really like it. It looks more practical than the conventional one, but looks more like other Imperial stuff than the Contemptor and it's relatives look.

Huh, yeah. That's pretty cool.

[Bobby Baratheon]

I especially like that the main body looks like the front of a (blocky) gunship, which definitely fits the imperial vibe. Also, the torso mounted guns make a lot of sense, and the legs make it look like it could actually walk (as opposed to the waddling I always imagined regular Dreadnoughts doing).

GW has convinced me to buy at least one nuMarine model, then, though it's definitely going to be treated as just a upgunned dreadnought from my "regular" marines and not one of these flashy numarines.

EDIT: AS far as weaponry goes, I'm seeing:
-The torso mounted guns, which seem like twin linked bolters (i'd be surprised if they were heavy bolters)
-The gatling gun mounted to the power fist. Miniature assault cannon, or is the rotor cannon making its debut in 40k?
-The power fist might have something concealed in the palm of the fist; it's kind of hard to tell but there could be an extra weapon (like a flamer or somesuch) there
-What appears to be an uber plasma cannon, which will probably be in line with what else we've seen from plasma (safe mode and turbo mode)
-Either smoke launchers or a loyalist havoc equivalent on top of the torso

I've always had a soft spot for plasma dreads, so hopefully this beasty will be worth its weight on the tabletop.

[Vaz]

For anyone not aware, Alan Bligh, Godfather of Astartes, has passed away. https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress...27/alan-bligh/

Bit surprised about how genuinely saddened I am. He's been a hugely influential part in one of my favourite hobbies. He will be very sadly missed.

[JNAProductions]

People's thoughts on Power Levels?

[Cheesegear]

For anyone not aware, Alan Bligh, Godfather of Astartes, has passed away.

He wrote Badab War (IA 9 & 10), and the Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch RPGs.
I'm sure he did other things, but at the end of the day, the above are huge influences on what I know about 40K.
Well played, sir.

People's thoughts on Power Levels?

What is/are the best unit/s in the game? Oh. We don't know that.
What are the best units in the game's Power Levels? Oh. We don't know that.
How does the best unit's in the game's Power Level relate to other units' Power Levels? Oh. We don't know that.
Is the best unit in the game under costed or over costed? Oh. We don't know that.

Has GW gotten their Power scale right? Well, unless we can answer the above questions... Oh... Nevermind.

[JNAProductions]

So reserving judgement? Seems fair enough.

Okay, follow-up question. Do you think GW is gonna get hit the nail on the head, do it right, and have it be nice and equal? Or are they gonna screw it up?

[Cheesegear]

Okay, follow-up question. Do you think GW is gonna get hit the nail on the head, do it right, and have it be nice and equal? Or are they gonna screw it up?

I think GW is going to get it right in the beginning.
I think GW is inevitably going to release something slightly more powerful than the standard curve in order to push model sales.
I think that something will eventually be released - probably the aforementioned - that combos with something that it probably shouldn't that vastly disrupts the Power scale.
I think that combo will be 'Greater than the sum of its parts' and then the game will be broken.

[Vaz]

So 7th ed.

[Drasius]

People's thoughts on Power Levels?

Compare Thousand Sons Rubricae against Vanilla marines Inceptors. 5x T4, 1W, 5" move infantry models with 4x -2 rend bolters vs 3x T5, 2W 10" move jump pack models with 2x half range assault heavy bolters. Yes, the rubricae have a 5++ and might occassionally put an unsavable wound on something if the sorceror doesn't kill himself and half his squad, but considering that they're the same "power level", I think it's not the best indicator so far on a unit by unit basis. Hopefully it's just a minor case and it's just a case of Thousand Sons being trash tier like they have been for over a decade while the shiny new thing gets decent rules to drive sales, but we won't know for sure until we see more power levels to compare it to.

So reserving judgement? Seems fair enough.

Okay, follow-up question. Do you think GW is gonna get hit the nail on the head, do it right, and have it be nice and equal?

Not a chance. It'll be better than 7th, but you can put solid money on there being obviously strong units after a quick glance at the indecies and there will almost certainly be a bunch of net-lists out after the first couple of days. The real question you should be asking is how much better than 7th do we think it will be, because it surely can't get much worse. Hopefully handing an early pass over to Reece and friends will have knocked most of the major abuse on the head early so we only get the minor imbalances without any glaring issues like Eldar vs not-gladius or Tau vs DE, but who knows, a lot of it will be meta dependant for the first few weeks until people get their heads around it as it (generally) takes time for people to sort out buying, building and even occassionaly painting their stuff before they can dominate or stop their regular opponents from dominating with the new hotness.

Edit: Forgot what I came in here to post - I finally rolled an 18 on shriek today against a grimoured shaaneshi seekerbus and it was pretty rad. My thousand sons have made a total turnaround since Traitor legions came out, even when I haven't run a full cabal and even today when I rad a plain old CAD. I even had the joy of going before a slaaneshi herald as my Exalted sorc with warp speed up is I8. I must say, however that they've only faced mid-tier armies (or top tier armies built to mid-tier power levels), but they're certainly in a much better place than I initially pegged them at.

My IW however have continued their poor form with virtually no changes even after TL came out. They did however mulch another vanilla marine scout team in shadow war, even after a horror start where 1 guy was taken out before deplyment due to a bad roll on the promethium sprawl table and then I lost another to the monster in the scavenger mission before I had even moved a model. Luckily, not only did I then not lose anyone else, but I got an advance on my out of action gunner (rolled medic) and my leader picked up another wound while my team won, rolled a 5 for my d3 caches as well as picked up an additional cache too. Solid day all around for team chaos.

[boomwolf]

Well, it is supposed to be only a rough outline.

The inceptors cost 53 each, so a team is 159.
Divide by 8, you got 19.875 points per power level.


Other known factor, the hellblasters, 40 each power level 12. so we hit 16.666 point per power level.
It seems like 1 power level=roughly 16-20 points? seems about right?

The captain though, power level 7 and costs 148, so that's 21.143 points per power level.
So...power level and points so not translate all that easily. we got 4.46 points-per-power-level difference between our highest and our lowest example-and these might not be the biggest edge cases, as we've seen a really small number so far.
Its a VERY rough outline, one that should never be used to compare units if you know your stuff. 4.46 difference between current edge cases, rounding down to 4 means the rubric squad might cost 127 points fully equipped-and still be within power level logic.


And even if for some reason we are looking on pure power level, are rubrics as good as inceptors? not quite.
HOWEVER, a few missing factors:
Faction spells can really change the value of the sorcerer.
The icon of flame does something unknown, and power level assumes you took it. it might be something valuable.
The flamers are scary powerful when used properly, and the power level assumes you got those too.



TL;DR-Power level is a very rough estimate, not fully consistant, and we don't actually know everything the rubrics have yet.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

New dreadnought chassis confirmed.

Spoiler

Show

I actually really like it. It looks more practical than the conventional one, but looks more like other Imperial stuff than the Contemptor and it's relatives look.

I agree. It looks similar enough to the castraferrum to be recognized as having the same ancestry, but also different enough to stand out. The limb to body ratio looks about right, especially compared to the treasure chest with t-rex arms that is the standard dread. The redemptor has better looking hip joints too; the standard dread has them weirdly abducted.

[boomwolf]

I agree. It looks similar enough to the castraferrum to be recognized as having the same ancestry, but also different enough to stand out. The limb to body ratio looks about right, especially compared to the treasure chest with t-rex arms that is the standard dread. The redemptor has better looking hip joints too; the standard dread has them weirdly abducted.

Am I the only one seeing some of the Tau ghostkeel design in there? (the gun, the hips, shoulderguards shape sorta like a fire warrior)

I mean, practically everything Numarine reminds me of something tau.

[Tome]

Where else do you think Cawl is getting his ideas from?

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Am I the only one seeing some of the Tau ghostkeel design in there? (the gun, the hips, shoulderguards shape sorta like a fire warrior)

I mean, practically everything Numarine reminds me of something tau.

*googles tau ghostkeel*

I'll meet you halfway and agree on the gun and the shoulders pads. But the rest of it, not really. It has the car-axle hips of the standard dread, unlike the ghostkeel which merge into its "pelvis" more organically. The ghostkeel is also closer to humanoid than even the Contemptor. The Redemptor is ultimately still a walking box, but at least it looks like it can walk without falling over. Between the "tank with legs" of the Imperium and the "oversized armor suit" of the Tau the Redemptor falls clearly into the Imperial camp.

In my view, the general Primaris aesthetic appears to be a bit cleaner and utilitarian than the pseudo-Gothic designs we're used to from the Imperium. I don't know if it has to do with the way the miniatures are painted, but the standard dreadnoughts tend to look perpetually battle damaged. Makes sense if these are meant to be new developments rather than stuff they forgot how to make 5,000 years ago. So the resemblance to Tau tech is there, in the sense that the Tau were deliberately designed to evoke perpetually advancing technology in stark contrast to the stagnating Imperium. Of course, GW can't help giving the Imperium new stuff anyway...