Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[ZeltArruin]

Anyone run into obvious cheese (a la Scatterbikes) yet? Everything is looking pretty decent all around, imo. I've seen some pretty strong units, but nothing that screams "spam this and win the game" to me.

Scatterbikes appear to be 35 points each, and of course you can still upgrade the whole pack of them to Shuriken Cannon or Scatter Lasers.

[Bobby Baratheon]

The Fraglaunchers on the Land Raider Crusader are now an annoyingly terrible special rule instead of, you know, actual weaponry. Due to how it's worded, it only triggers when the Land Raider charges instead of, you know, the unit inside it. I don't know why that annoys me so much, but urgh. Land Raiders were supposed to be good this edition. Now they perform better, but at almost prohibitively higher prices. The Godhammer alone costs 356 points once you add in the wargear.

EDIT: Dw Knights weapons seem to have gotten more dangerous - the flail's damage (2 per hit) spills over to the unit, and at S6 AP-3 it might be fairly decent at helping the DW Knights clear out tarpits. The Maces of Absolution are amazing, too - x2 S, -2 AP and 3 Damage per hit. These guys seem like pretty deadly Character/MC/vehicle hunters, and still have the 2+/3++ to tarpit heroes and endure small arms fire. Oh, and they have 2 wounds now.

[LeSwordfish]

Jetbikes now have two wounds and a 4+ save. That's... I guess that's an improvement?

[Gauntlet]

Gun Drones look good. 8 points for two Pulse Carbines, and they are pretty good to buff. Fireblades and Drone Controllers make them a very solid source of strength 5. I get the impression Tau are gonna have their biggest problem dealing with armour, since all their sources of AP-3 or whatever cost a lot of points. I think Fusion Blasters are going to end up being the best option, unless Hammerheads can get there.

[Saambell]

So once again I find myself hating GW's instruction books for building the models. Making some of the new Devesators, and Oh Goodness, there's two errors in numbering I have seen already. First is labeling a leg section as 8, twice, when both are clearly different. Its actually the bent leg for a Missile Marine, but they label part 6 as being 8 for the general standing legs. Second, they tell you to use 73/74 as arms for both the Heavy Bolter AND the Grav Amp, when the arm very clearly does't fit for the grav amp, is on the wrong sprue, and you actually want 103/104 to build the Amp.

Not as bad as the time a Chimera kit instructions showed one less part for the tracks then there are. Luckily that wasn't my first time building the kit, so I didn't mess that up.

Why are they so bad at writing model kit instructions? I can understand Bandai Gundam Kit Instructions better, and those are in Japanese!

[Voidhawk]

The Godhammer alone costs 356 points once you add in the wargear.

The wargear rules are badly written, but it has been confirmed by GW that you need only pay wargear costs for additional things you buy and not gear a model starts with on its datasheet. So a normal Landraider needn't pay for lascannons.

[boomwolf]

Gun Drones look good. 8 points for two Pulse Carbines, and they are pretty good to buff. Fireblades and Drone Controllers make them a very solid source of strength 5. I get the impression Tau are gonna have their biggest problem dealing with armour, since all their sources of AP-3 or whatever cost a lot of points. I think Fusion Blasters are going to end up being the best option, unless Hammerheads can get there.

Yea, my tau have a serious flux of quality light to medium "infantry" in fire warrior strike teams, drones and surprisingly stealth suits and vespids, led by fireblades and darkstrides...

However, very little "bigger" units seem to be worth much.
Longstrike-and you can only have on of, crisis commanders and coldstars seems decent (all are HQ...), anything else seems horribly overpriced.



I'm sorry, but these indexes are a lame excuse of a replacement until actual rules arrive.
Especially for the things that "supposedly" have actual rules-yet not really (1ksons biggest drop. and yea, I know I can keep casting smite, but on an aspiring sorcerer the expected damage to you own army is about equal to the expected damage to the enemy!)

[Bobby Baratheon]

The wargear rules are badly written, but it has been confirmed by GW that you need only pay wargear costs for additional things you buy and not gear a model starts with on its datasheet. So a normal Landraider needn't pay for lascannons.

That is reassuring. Thanks for the clarification.

EDIT: That does mean, though, that HB Razorbacks only cost 65 points as the twin heavy bolter is its starting gear on its datasheet. That's a very reasonable price for the razorback, considering how much other vehicles prices have gone up. I'm probably going to start the core of my 8th Dark Angels army with 3-4 razorbacks with 5 man tactical squads with combi-weapons and one special weapon, especially since comb-weapons now give you a unlimited uses of the special part.

EDIT2: Well, now I'm just confused. Wouldn't have been easier just to factor it into the base cost of the unit? Oh well.

[Requizen]

The wargear rules are badly written, but it has been confirmed by GW that you need only pay wargear costs for additional things you buy and not gear a model starts with on its datasheet. So a normal Landraider needn't pay for lascannons.

Nope, you need to "buy" the basic weaponry.

Check out @GeekJockPete's Tweet: https://twitter.com/GeekJockPete/sta...349057024?s=09

[Adrastos42]

Imgur isn't loading properly for me anymore so I can't check, but it seemed like Primaris marines don't fit into any transports, not even land raiders. So I have to assume they'll get their own at some point.

[Selpharia]

So are the summoning rules as dumb as they appear, such that summoning a unit of 30 basic daemons requires a 15(!) on 3d6?

[Voidhawk]

Nope, you need to "buy" the basic weaponry.

Check out @GeekJockPete's Tweet: https://twitter.com/GeekJockPete/sta...349057024?s=09

-headdesk- In the Warhammer Community article about building armies, the Dark Eldar example pays no points for standard gear.

Sigh. "Here comes the New GW, same as the Old GW."

[Blackhawk748]

Kinda underwhelmed by the Necrons and Grey Knights, but mein gott have Adeptus Mechanicus received an improvement. Arc rifles are kinda meh now and the TUA looks friggin' sweet. The TUA and plasma guns are probably going to be the new mainstay for AdMech armies. I'm not so sure on how to build my sicarians now, infiltrators have the infiltrate rule which is an easy turn 1 charge after burst fire with stub carbines or fletchette pistols. But ruststalkers have the potential to unload mortal wounds (Which seems to be the new rend).

Ya,m thought about that at work. Infiltrators are freaking horrifying now, as they can just show up and bum rush a unit with a full squad of Power Swords.

[DataNinja]

Sigh. "Here comes the New GW, same as the Old GW."

The more things change, the more things stay the same, eh?

[Brookshw]

Sigh. "Here comes the New GW, same as the Old GW."

For the scope of the change I give them credit, but yeah, there are a few *ahem* oddities here and there.

[Blackhawk748]

So ya, Keywords for Orders do nothing, as they even say you can just make one up. So *Order* is the same as Faction: Sisters of Battle. It does nothing, and that pisses me off. Im also still really annoyed about how they decided to do AoF. Yes they are more powerful, but i only get one per turn before i have to start paying for a model whose sole purpose is to use my main freaking ability!

Seriously, you play Sisters for their Acts of Faith, not to have less durable Space Marines

Spoiler: Thoughts on Orks

Show

So Mob Rule is basically what its 4th ed version was (Ld=Number of Models in unit) but Orks can now use the Ld of another Ork unit within 6". This is amazing.

Psychic Powers: 'Eadbanger sucks, the other 2 are fine.

The Warboss is Str 6 now and has 6 wounds and starts 'eavy Armor and a Big Choppa , so thats neat. Oh and his Shoota is Assault 4.

Painboyz can now do the D3 heal thing. They also dont appear to be HQs anymore, i think they are Elites.

Boyz can no longer take 'eavy Armor. That, right there, is a colossal middle finger to Ork players.

Nobs can take Killsaws now and come with 'eavy Armor stock (this makes the Flash Gitz not coming with it even dumber)

Tankhammers now deal d3 Mortal wounds, but only do one attack and it kills the bearer. So they suck worse than they ever have.

Ramshackle, now it can reduce any attack that deals more than 1 damage to 1, its still on a 6 and noone cares, just like last time.

Warbuggies and Wartrakks are now separate units, still no huge difference and they made a third unit called the Skorcha, you can guess what it is.

Fixed Artillery (aka Big Guns) are now T5, and they decided to split the classic guns from the new ones. The new ones are called Mek Guns

Battlewagons are T7 with a 4+ and W16, even though they had better armor than the Orkanaughts. I am not pleased

Deff Dredds are T7 with W8 and a 3+ (why they warrant a better save than a Battlewagon i dont know)

Killa Kans are T5 with W5 (i knew they would be low) with a 3+ save....for some reason. Thankfully Cowardly Grots has died in a fire, so they may actually be useful.

Lootas are what they always were, but Deffguns are now Heavy D3 and deal 2 wounds, so they just got better.

Flash Gitz still do not have 'eavy Armor (and its still pants on head stupid) and their guns are more or less the same, except they are now heavy for no reason. Oh and Flash Gits BS is 4+

The Stompa is T8 with W40 and a 3+. Why an actual Titan doesnt deserve higher than T8 i dont understand, if anything would it woulda been that.

Big Shootas are Str 5 with no AP (so, suck) Kustom Mega Blastas do d3 wounds but they deal a MW if you roll a 1. Cybork body is now 1 per 5 (By Mork why???) and it does the same thing as the Painboy for that one guy. Rokkits do 3 wounds and pretty much everything is what you would expect.

Oh apparently we have something called a Powa Stabba (really, thats the best name you could come up with?) It looks like a Power Sword.

Ya, im not overly impressed. The new Mod Rule is great, but we're gonna need it cuz Orks are going to die in freakin droves.

[lord_khaine]

Well.. it should be pointed out that at the jump from 2nd to 3rd edition we also started with just a big book of generic rules for everyone. And then got more specific army books later on that replaced the initial rules.

[Requizen]

-headdesk- In the Warhammer Community article about building armies, the Dark Eldar example pays no points for standard gear.

Sigh. "Here comes the New GW, same as the Old GW."

No, looks like they did it right. It's just that some Wargear costs 0. In the DE example on the Community site, the Pistol and Blade on the Lhamean cost 0 and the Void Lances on the Bomber cost 0 as well.

It's actually pretty straightforward though stupid. Like I get why they did it but the old way was not that confusing.

[Lord Ruby34]

I will say that I'm mildly annoyed at the lack of signature systems for my Tau. I don't think I'd ever made a list where I didn't take Iridium armor on my Commander, and I usually took the Neroweb Systems Jammer too. It's disappointing that I don't get to play with those anymore.

[Requizen]

So ya, Keywords for Orders do nothing, as they even say you can just make one up. So *Order* is the same as Faction: Sisters of Battle. It does nothing, and that pisses me off. Im also still really annoyed about how they decided to do AoF. Yes they are more powerful, but i only get one per turn before i have to start paying for a model whose sole purpose is to use my main freaking ability!

Seriously, you play Sisters for their Acts of Faith, not to have less durable Space Marines

Order, Chapter, Legion, Dynasty, etc don't do anything right now. They will with Codices (maybe). They keep Iron Hands from buffing White Scars I guess.

[Blackhawk748]

Order, Chapter, Legion, Dynasty, etc don't do anything right now. They will with Codices (maybe). They keep Iron Hands from buffing White Scars I guess.

But it is literally pointless for everyone else. And every one of us knows that they arent going to give Sisters any Orders, and im willing to bet that the only Ork fation that gets rules will be Goffs (cuz they are the favored Ork subfaction)

Really, im just not impressed with this. Flash Gitz still have no armor, and now my Boyz can't take armor. One step forward, two steps back.

[Adrastos42]

Well.. it should be pointed out that at the jump from 2nd to 3rd edition we also started with just a big book of generic rules for everyone. And then got more specific army books later on that replaced the initial rules.

I think this is definitely the jump to compare it to. These rules are going to have annoying omissions and things that feel half-done, the same as the rules in the 3rd ed rulebook did. (I think. It has been a while since I read that book)

The real test will be how quickly they get out all the proper codecies. I can see an argument for waiting a little while to see how the current rules play, but as soon as you do the first one the countdown starts to not leave any army behind for too long.

I came in at the tail end of 3rd ed, so a little too late, can anyone who was playing at the transition remember how long it took GW to get all the codecies out that time?

[DaedalusMkV]

I will say that I'm mildly annoyed at the lack of signature systems for my Tau. I don't think I'd ever made a list where I didn't take Iridium armor on my Commander, and I usually took the Neroweb Systems Jammer too. It's disappointing that I don't get to play with those anymore.

I'd agree, except for the fact that nobody has anything. Chaos have no Daemon Weapons, save for Abbadon's. In fact, Chaos Lords are, as of the launch, just Space Marine Captains with less wargear access and the word 'Chaos' in the name. Imperium have no Relics. Et cetera and so forth. If Sigmar is any indication we'll see all of those, as well as rules for actual mechanical effects for Septs, Chapters and what have you when Codexes start getting released. Until then, everyone gets to play super-generic and that's the end of it.

Tau commanders are actually, for the most part, better off than most (and might be far better than most, if the Jet Pack tag actually comes with a mechanical effect. We know at least some universal tags, like Fly, do). At T5 3+ with cheap, easy access to 4++ and 6W they're tougher than all but the most elite leaders of other factions even before you start factoring in things like using Drones to tank for them and 3-4 Missile Pods or Plasma Rifles at 2+ to Hit makes them terrifying weapons platforms that can crush vehicles or devastate whole squads singlehandedly. Sure, I'd love to have Iridium Armour back, and I'm sure it'll happen at some point. Until then, just be grateful you aren't Chaos or Space Wolves and dealing with the fact that everything that made you special is pretty much gone now.

And don't even get me started on what they did to Obliterators. Bleck."Can I shoot at tanks this turn? Spin the wheel to find out!"

[Blackhawk748]

I'd agree, except for the fact that nobody has anything. Chaos have no Daemon Weapons, save for Abbadon's. In fact, Chaos Lords are, as of the launch, just Space Marine Captains with less wargear access and the word 'Chaos' in the name. Imperium have no Relics. Et cetera and so forth. If Sigmar is any indication we'll see all of those, as well as rules for actual mechanical effects for Septs, Chapters and what have you when Codexes start getting released. Until then, everyone gets to play super-generic and that's the end of it.

And don't even get me started on what they did to Obliterators. Bleck."Can I shoot at tanks this turn? Spin the wheel to find out!"

Oh look, Chaos is back to not having nice things. The world is normal once again.

*actually looks at Obliterators* That.....that is the most painfully asininely pants on head stupidest thing i have ever seen! How hot was their crack pipe when they were writing that???

Oh look Possessed just have Power Swords now *keeps reading* and a random number of attacks..... God why!?!

[DaedalusMkV]

Oh look, Chaos is back to not having nice things. The world is normal once again.

*actually looks at Obliterators* That.....that is the most painfully asininely pants on head stupidest thing i have ever seen! How hot was their crack pipe when they were writing that???

Oh look Possessed just have Power Swords now *keeps reading* and a random number of attacks..... God why!?!

Well, Chaos do look to have some nice things. Berzerkers are easily one of the scariest melee units in the entire game now, for example, thanks to hitting like freight trains and not costing much by way of points. Noise Marines are pretty spiffy. Thousand Sons look solid. Ahriman is hilariously underpriced. Magnus can easily win entire games entirely on his own. Typhus and his Zombros are nearly impossible to kill and can Zombie Apocalypse their way through anything resembling a horde army in a disturbingly short timeframe. And, of course, anything that's good for Space Marines is probably also good for Chaos.

The problem is that anything that's good for both Marines and Chaos? Is exactly the same for both Marines and Chaos. Havoks are Devestators with less guns to choose from. CSM are Tactical Squads with less guns to choose from. Raptors are Assault Marines with Fear. Chaos Lords are Space Marine Captains with less weapons to choose from. Predators are exactly the same, with no differences between factions.

Meanwhile, most of the unique, iconic Chaos stuff just kind of sucks now. Heldrakes cost all the points and don't do much (compare to the Sun Shark Bomber and weep tears of bitter envy). Maulerfiends are generally terrible. Possessed suck, still. Obliterators are okay because they aren't too expensive, but they're painfully unreliable and incredibly generic. Mutilators, oh yeah, suck even harder than they used to.

Outside of the Cult Troops and Special Characters there's nothing to differentiate Chaos Marines from regular Space Marines. They're more Spiky Marines than they ever have been before, and it hurts.

[Blackhawk748]

Meanwhile, most of the unique, iconic Chaos stuff just kind of sucks now. Heldrakes cost all the points and don't do much (compare to the Sun Shark Bomber and weep tears of bitter envy). Maulerfiends are generally terrible. Possessed suck, still. Obliterators are okay because they aren't too expensive, but they're painfully unreliable and incredibly generic. Mutilators, oh yeah, suck even harder than they used to.

Outside of the Cult Troops and Special Characters there's nothing to differentiate Chaos Marines from regular Space Marines. They're more Spiky Marines than they ever have been before, and it hurts.

Random Attacks kill Possessed, which is a shame, i've always liked them. and how do you make Mutilators suck more? Like, how is that physically possible??

[Lost Demiurge]

Hm! All of my tyranids are cheaper! Works for me. The new rules generally benefit us, and other armies got more fundamental upgrades, but being cheaper is pretty much an upgrade.

And the Maleceptor kind of does something now, if you squint hard. Cheap enough that I can probably work it in somewhere without being too annoyed.

[DaedalusMkV]

Random Attacks kill Possessed, which is a shame, i've always liked them. and how do you make Mutilators suck more? Like, how is that physically possible??

Oh, it's fairly simple. You make them cost more points, then give them terrible random melee weapons that are pretty much definitively worse than any real melee weapons and don't do anything to make them better at getting into combat. Now they cost more points, still suck at actually reaching CC (Move 4", baby! Even if you Teleport them right near the enemy, unless you make that 9" charge right out of the gate they can just walk away while you try vainly to waddle slowly after them) and don't even do as well as they used to once they actually make it there, especially when most other dedicated melee units got more dangerous in 8th. Oh, and minimum unit size 3. Seriously, if they just had their current statline, but with Master-crafted Power Swords or (Single) Lightning Claws they would be more powerful. Give them their current profile and paired Claws and they might even be worth using, though still probably not. Chaos Terminators with paired Claws are only 44 points each, after all, and they're basically exactly as good as a 65 point Mutilator. Or you go with a Terminator with a Combi-Bolter and Power Axe for 37 points per model, or Combi-Plasmas for 50. No matter how you look at it, Chaos Terminators are way, way better than Mutilators at everything. Obliterators at least have a niche, even if their new gun rules make me want to rub my head against a cheese grater.

[Blackhawk748]

Oh, it's fairly simple. You make them cost more points, then give them terrible random melee weapons that are pretty much definitively worse than any real melee weapons and don't do anything to make them better at getting into combat. Now they cost more points, still suck at actually reaching CC (Move 4", baby! Even if you Teleport them right near the enemy, unless you make that 9" charge right out of the gate they can just walk away while you try vainly to waddle slowly after them) and don't even do as well as they used to once they actually make it there, especially when most other dedicated melee units got more dangerous in 8th. Oh, and minimum unit size 3. Seriously, if they just had their current statline, but with Master-crafted Power Swords or (Single) Lightning Claws they would be more powerful. Give them their current profile and paired Claws and they might even be worth using, though still probably not. Chaos Terminators with paired Claws are only 44 points each, after all, and they're basically exactly as good as a 65 point Mutilator. Or you go with a Terminator with a Combi-Bolter and Power Axe for 37 points per model, or Combi-Plasmas for 50. No matter how you look at it, Chaos Terminators are way, way better than Mutilators at everything. Obliterators at least have a niche, even if their new gun rules make me want to rub my head against a cheese grater.

I figured it out: Their crack pipe was heated by the sun. Now it makes sense, cuz i just got a look at Pink Horrors, and they suck.

They have their stupid little Assault 2 18" Lasgun now, and they are still Psykers....except they cast on one die and they cost more. Also there is no reason to take Pink Horrors over Blue Horrors, unless you are gonna pay to use their splitting trick.

This edition change is exactly what i thought it was originally: Just slap a bunch of new mechanics on things and dont actually fix the problems. Hell i think my Orks may be worse off now

Also i just found the Points for Orks: Power Klaws are still 25 (ew) Big Choppas are 9 and the Powa Stabba (that name is still idiotic) is 4. Wow GW, thanks.

The KFF is now 20 points (thats a 30 point reduction) but it now only gives a 5++ to units that are wholly within 9" of the Big Mek using it. So its actually worse now, cuz it doesnt do anything unless the whole Mob is in, and its really had to get 30 Boyz in an area that small, especially since the Big Mek cant stand in the middle of them like he used to.

Shootas are once again free (thank Mork), The Warboss got a bit cheaper, Trukks over doubled in price (**** you GW) Deffkoptas went up (for no reason, they where already pricey) and the Bubblechucka is now more expensive than a Kustom Mega Kannon, and it makes my brain hurt trying to figure it out.

Bubblechuka: Range 36" Special:Roll 4 dice each time you fire this gun, then take it in turns with your opponent (starting with you) to allocate one value at a time to its Strength, AP (which is a negative number) Damage and number of shots.

Kustom Mega Kannon Range:36" Heavy D6, S8: AP:-3 Dam:D3 (If any to hit rolls are a 1 the bearer takes a Mortal wound per 1, after all shots are resolved."

How, i ask you, how is the Bubblechuka better than the Mega Kannon? It what crack fueld delusion is a gun that has 4 random attributes, two of which are chosen by your opponent, better than a supped up Plasma Cannon??

Also, Big Gunz and Mek Gunz are now more expensive (a Kannon now costs 23 instead of 18) just cuz

In short go **** yourself GW. "Everything is awesome now, we swear" Ya, bull****.

[Forum Explorer]

Huh. The Lance mode of the Fire Prism is strength 12. I am a little sad that Lance weapons don't seem to have a rule for treating the opponent's Toughness as lower, since that was kinda their thing, but, ah well.

Interesting that Wraithguard actually have a semblance of melee ability. -1, with D3 Damage.

Vectored engines are really interesting, especially if you're able to combine them with star engines. Seems like that could make a not half-bad delivery system. Advance 16"+2d6, and make it harder to hit.

Well, then. Ghoshelms appear to be a 3+ "save" against Mortal Wounds only. So does the Avatar's Molten Body rule. I wonder how common things like this are going to be.

The Avatar's goes on both Mortal wounds and regular wounds, but Ghosthelm is mortal wounds only.

Oh, it's fairly simple. You make them cost more points, then give them terrible random melee weapons that are pretty much definitively worse than any real melee weapons and don't do anything to make them better at getting into combat. Now they cost more points, still suck at actually reaching CC (Move 4", baby! Even if you Teleport them right near the enemy, unless you make that 9" charge right out of the gate they can just walk away while you try vainly to waddle slowly after them) and don't even do as well as they used to once they actually make it there, especially when most other dedicated melee units got more dangerous in 8th. Oh, and minimum unit size 3. Seriously, if they just had their current statline, but with Master-crafted Power Swords or (Single) Lightning Claws they would be more powerful. Give them their current profile and paired Claws and they might even be worth using, though still probably not. Chaos Terminators with paired Claws are only 44 points each, after all, and they're basically exactly as good as a 65 point Mutilator. Or you go with a Terminator with a Combi-Bolter and Power Axe for 37 points per model, or Combi-Plasmas for 50. No matter how you look at it, Chaos Terminators are way, way better than Mutilators at everything. Obliterators at least have a niche, even if their new gun rules make me want to rub my head against a cheese grater.

Remember, you move your charge distance, even if you fail the charge. They still suck, but they'll get into combat. Eventually.