OOTS #1073 - The Discussion Thread

[littlebum2002]

I wonder if this comic's title has two meanings...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I do not agree. The OoTS gets mission failure if the ship cannot fly. Elan's effort is in a lot of ways the main effort: keep the ship flying. As such, whatever it takes is a resource well spent since failure to expend that resource ends the chance for mission success. The enemy has a mission success mode of "stop the ship." Countering the enemy's mission is also a path to mission success. Elan's action are not a waste. They are critical nodes on the path to success.

Remember: it's about mission success (over all optimized collective action) not optimization of one small sub set of the operation. Larger scale optimization often requires some subordinate functions to be suboptimal. (Lessons of real life program management, project management, mission success, etc).

None of this in any way supports the thesis that necessary things cannot be wasteful. They remain two different values in two different scales: the action can be a "10" on "importance", while still being a "1" in "appropriate use of resources".

I'd also argue that at current time, casting Mend is both wasteful and unimportant, because the ship is not going anywhere anyway, so fixing the gas bag is not in the critical path: delaying the action will not impact their ability to leave. Killing the giant and thus giving a crew member the chance to patch the gas bag themselves with non-magical means is as viable to critical success as casting mend right now, and will be less wasteful. Not that Roy or Elan realise this.

"Wasteful" implies spending resources in a foolish or shortsided way. If it is absolutely necessary to spend a resource to achieve vital goals they aren't wasted.

No, wasteful implies spending more resources than needed. Even if it is necessary (and in this case, as per the above, that is doubtful), that doesn't stop it from having reduced your resources more than strictly necessary.

In SW development, wasteful actions are common, as a counter to clarity. In many a case, you can write clean code, or efficient code, but not both. This is both expected and acceptable. But that doesn't mean you can simply ignore efficiency - while it is generally accepted that clarity has a slight edge to efficiency (because it saves a different resource, time, down the line when the code is revisited), you still want to maintain an unequal balance between the two. This is where comments are supposed to cover the gap, BTW, not that you ever encounter such things in RL.

GW

[mouser9169]

Yay! Andi is back to Engineering and Elan gets to be useful again.

Also - they should be catching up with the rest of the party any moment now.

[nocoolnamejim]

NOW Mechane crew!

While Andi's head is underneath the table and she's actually doing the job she's supposed to do (and ironically utterly neglecting the job she thrust herself into by not Captaining), free Bandana and get some competent leadership going in here.

[FolcoTook]

"Sunrise Gravy!"

I now have a new battle cry. Thank you.

[Giggling Ghast]

What's next, Roy? Gonna try to distract the giant by blowing her kisses?

Enough foreplay! Get in there and start killing!

[Peelee]

I do not agree. The OoTS gets mission failure if the ship cannot fly. Elan's effort is in a lot of ways the main effort: keep the ship flying. As such, whatever it takes is a resource well spent since failure to expend that resource ends the chance for mission success. The enemy has a mission success mode of "stop the ship." Countering the enemy's mission is also a path to mission success. Elan's action are not a waste. They are critical nodes on the path to success.

"Wasteful" implies spending resources in a foolish or shortsided way. If it is absolutely necessary to spend a resource to achieve vital goals they aren't wasted.

For an example, if a man is starving to death, and comes across a five-star restaurant with all dishes costing more than double digits, then it is both necessary for him to order food to eat and wasteful to spend so much on it.

[Chei]

I like the proactive move from Andi, but yeah, it's undercut by the fact that it's just her finally doing her job - as chief engineer, not captain.

The frost giant warrior is amazing. It feels like the whole airship bit is winding down soon (that might just be the Giant's blistering pace right now), so I hope she gets in a few more good licks and quips.

[HandofShadows]

Poor Elan can't catch a break. All his work keeps being undone. Wonder how long it will be before Andi blows herself up?

[Anarion]

I'm really putting this on crashing the ship. It's taking so much damage and Andi is obviously incompetent.

[Joe the Rat]

Usually it's a cleric that would be saying Elan's lines.

Truly, he is understanding the plight of the cleric.

Also, he's doing a halfway decent job of support.

[JumboWheat01]

"FWONK!" is an amazing sound effect that should be used far more often.

Truly, he is understanding the plight of the cleric.

Also, he's doing a halfway decent job of support.

His father is probably livid somewhere and doesn't really understand why.

[Vinyadan]

Well, was that from the Hobbit book?

[ratfox]

Wow, rapid fire! Nice to see Andy doing something useful; with a bit of luck, Bandana can do some interim captaining in the meantime.

[Erzengel]

Because that would require her to have such an absurd degree of luck in her engineering that it stretches plausibility. It seems incredibly unlikely that she could consistently enter such dangerous circumstances unaware and make it out without getting hurt over years and years of engineering.

Well, it is the Mechane....

[Rogar Demonblud]

And the next shoe should be dropping in 5...4...3...2...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Things seem to be continuing to get worse. I wonder if Haley and company are going to be able to find their way back and save the day. Also, I'm sure Roy's not the only one doing some Catching Up...

[Douglas]

I like the proactive move from Andi, but yeah, it's undercut by the fact that it's just her finally doing her job - as chief engineer, not captain.

Is it really an undercut, though? Or is it an integral part of Andi, perhaps, beginning to realize how focused her area of competence is and how out of depth she is in the role of captain?

[Saint Jimmy]

Yay, Andi is doing something useful for once!
Yay, a new comic already! Thanks, Giant!

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd also argue that at current time, casting Mend is both wasteful and unimportant, because the ship is not going anywhere anyway,

Nice exposition on the Andi theory of running a ship. Thanks, I'll not vote for you as captain on any pirate ship we may both be on in the future as pirates.

All in all, I think we are going to end up needing to agree to disagree on this.

@Peelee:
"Starving" is a continuum. How much longer can this person keep going to find other food? You left that out of your example, so the example doesn't suit the issue of Elan expending spells to keep the Mechane airworthy. With no Mechane you fail your mission. Not just getting through the pass, The Whole Mission. V has no teleport. Time is a factor in foiling Durkula.

[Jasdoif]

I'd also argue that at current time, casting Mend is both wasteful and unimportant, because the ship is not going anywhere anyway,

Nice exposition on the Andi theory of running a ship.

What makes you think Andi is doing any sort of triaging?

[137beth]

We've truly come full circle if Elan is the one trying to fix Roy's mistakes. The apocalypse is nigh!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Nice exposition on the Andi theory of running a ship.

Lets run down the current immediate circumstances:

1) The ship hasn't got enough helium to leave the valley.
2) The ship is stationary
3) There is a giant intent on further damaging the ship

Fixing the envelope does not solve any of those three tasks, therefore in it not in the critical path, and thus it is not as urgent as addressing those three items.

At best, "fixing the envelope" is a subtask of 1, but given that it needs to be paired with "summon more helium" which requires the crew to be able to perform their job, it seems addressing task 3 is far more critical to the success of the project.

Consequently, Elan using a level-2 spell slot to cast a Mend it is both wasteful and not all that crucial. Getting rid of the giant, thus allowing crew members to patch the envelope with, say, spare canvas and some glue, is a much less wasteful path to success.*

But, by all means, instead of addressing my arguments or defending yours, use sarcasm and compare me to Andi.

Grey Wolf

*ETA: Roy is unaware that they are trapped in the valley, and therefore from his limited perspective, it makes sense to have Elan fix the envelope, because he doesn't want the ship to ran aground. However, in the current circumstances, that might not be a bad thing - it might even help with the repairs.

[Keltest]

Lets run down the current immediate circumstances:

1) The ship hasn't got enough helium to leave the valley.
2) The ship is stationary
3) There is a giant intent on further damaging the ship

Fixing the envelope does not solve any of those three tasks, therefore in it not in the critical path, and thus it is not as urgent as addressing those three items.

At best, "fixing the envelope" is a subtask of 1, but given that it needs to be paired with "summon more helium" which requires the crew to be able to perform their job, it seems addressing task 3 is far more critical to the success of the project.

Consequently, Elan using a level-2 spell slot to cast a Mend it is both wasteful and not all that crucial. Getting rid of the giant, thus allowing crew members to patch the envelope with, say, spare canvas and some glue, is a much less wasteful path to success.

But, by all means, instead of addressing my arguments or defending yours, use sarcasm and compare me to Andi.

Grey Wolf

You've neglected to take something into account. The ship is going somewhere: Down. The more height they lose, the less likely it is they will be able to regain sufficient height to make it over the cliff, even if Andi is able to rig the propellers to provide some.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You've neglected to take something into account. The ship is going somewhere: Down. The more height they lose, the less likely it is they will be able to regain sufficient height to make it over the cliff, even if Andi is able to rig the propellers to provide some.

Oh, I put no faith whatsoever on Andi's abilities to solve the ship's problems. I'm going to pull a Kish and state that I find it exceedingly unlikely that Andi will be a factor to the success of this scene, although admittedly it is because at this point, she is so far into the negatives of involvement that even if she fixed the gasbag, summoned the helium and then beat the giant on her own, she'd still not have done enough to compensate for what she has done so far.

GW

[Keltest]

Oh, I put no faith whatsoever on Andi's abilities to solve the ship's problems. I'm going to pull a Kish and state that I find it exceedingly unlikely that Andi will be a factor to the success of this scene, although admittedly it is because at this point, she is so far into the negatives of involvement that even if she fixed the gasbag, summoned the helium and then beat the giant on her own, she'd still not have done enough to compensate for what she has done so far.

GW

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Sorry, but you really left me no choice with that. Anyway, how they generate lift is rather beside the point. Unless they can replace the missing air somehow, something which has not been indicated thusfar, every moment that hole is open lowers the chances of whatever method they use to generate lift being enough to actually make it over the ridge. Therefore closing it sooner rather than later is a fairly important factor as to whether they can get back over or not.

[Potato_Priest]

What happened to the giant's axe in the second-to-last panel? It looks damaged, but it was whole all the way through the rest of the fight.

Edit: Ah, it looks like the giant's boot ruff was put in as a layer on top of the axe.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Anyway, how they generate lift is rather beside the point.

No, it IS the point.

Unless they can replace the missing air somehow, something which has not been indicated thusfar

Hasn't it?

every moment that hole is open lowers the chances of whatever method they use to generate lift being enough to actually make it over the ridge. Therefore closing it sooner rather than later is a fairly important factor as to whether they can get back over or not.

Again, unsure what this has to do with my point that "important" is not the opposite of "wasteful". I am not claiming that the envelope doesn't need to be fixed. I am saying that it is wasteful to use a level-2 spell to do so, and that getting rid of the cause of the holes is more important than running behind her fixing them.

GW

[Rogar Demonblud]

But that requires Elan to be successful enough in combat to handle the giantess.

Actually, the best plan would be for Elan to use mending on the balloon where she can see him. A unique way of drawing aggro, but it would put her focus on dealing with Elan as a prelude to wrecking stuff (because why wreck when it'll get fixed next round).

[Keltest]

Hasn't it?

No, it hasn't. We know that the helium was conjured, but we have no indication that the crew is able to do so at will or what method was used to do so. it could be anything from a magic artifact that does so over a period of hours/days to a wizard that conjures a portal in seconds while theyre in dry dock, to the friendly staff of the airship docks topping them off every time they refuel.

Again, unsure what this has to do with my point that "important" is not the opposite of "wasteful". I am not claiming that the envelope doesn't need to be fixed. I am saying that it is wasteful to use a level-2 spell to do so, and that getting rid of the cause of the holes is more important than running behind her fixing them.

GW

Wasteful implies the unnecessary use of resources being consumed such that they cant be used for something else. it would be wasteful to use a 2nd level spell slot when a 1st level slot was available. But when 2nd level slots are your lowest available, it isn't wasteful anymore. the key word there is necessary, because right now its necessary to stem the flow of air out of the balloon. Yes, its also important to stop the giantess, but Roy is working on that already.