OOTS #1073 - The Discussion Thread

[JoeyTheNeko]

well elan, luckily you don't cast by individual memorized spells. as long as you got the slots, you can just fix both those things again.

[danielxcutter]

I'm not the only one laughing their pants off at this strip, right?

[ReturnOfTheKing]

The continued existence of the world depends on Elan choosing wisely.

Alas. Alas, poor Stickverse. Alas.

This

[Chei]

I, too, disdain those who don't have all monster statblocks memorized.

I wonder. Is the mighty Rock Catching special quality more or less obscure than the knowledge that an epic-level spellcaster needs to be a minimum level of 21, not 20, for epic spells? He sure rattled that information off well enough five hundred strips ago.

I guess Roy reading through the Epic Handbook but skimming the Monster Manual does fit his mild megalomania.

[Darth Paul]

For some reason, at first I thought

Beginner geometry holds up the magnet gambler!

was Furkini giving advice to Andi on how to fix the engines...

[Chei]

For some reason, at first I thought was Furkini giving advice to Andi on how to fix the engines...

Why would anyone think that a magically addled barbarian is fit to give Andi advice?

[Olinser]

I'm not the only one laughing their pants off at this strip, right?

Nope.

My pants were already off before I read the strip.

[ti'esar]

Love the meta title.

Why would anyone think that a magically addled barbarian is fit to give Andi advice?

Well, given the level of competence Andi has displayed as captain, that might actually be a step in the right direction.

[JumboWheat01]

Why would anyone think that a magically addled barbarian is fit to give Andi advice?

Are you implying that all barbarians dump Int and Wis? How rude.

Nope.

My pants were already off before I read the strip.

Just because we have furkini-clad barbarians doesn't mean the rest of us need to pants-less now.

[Darth Paul]

Why would anyone think that a magically addled barbarian is fit to give Andi advice?

At this point, be honest- doesn't she need all the help she can get?

[Ironsmith]

Just gonna throw my two cents in with the whole "is Elan being wasteful with Mending" debate: while it does seem like a waste of resources to use higher-level spell slots to cast Mending, just for the sake of patching the balloon, I think it's worth noting that there's not a lot else he could actually do other than that with those spell slots. Presumably, Elan's keeping any Cures he has on hand, rather than burning them to Mend, given his upward surge in competence, but aside from that, most of the spells he'd have as a Bard have limited use in this situation:

-Lesser Confusion would be a little applicable here, but as was just shown, it's unreliable even when it works and might just make matters worse.
- Image spells of any kind are absolutely useless here, though, as is Disguise Self, unless he could somehow impersonate Thyrm or something and give the giantess orders to stop, but it's doubtful he'd think of that on his own, or that it would succeed, especially if the giantess gets any kind of bonus for disbelieving illusions regarding her patron deity.
-Neutralize Poison can be safely burned, since the odds of anybody onboard the Mechane suddenly being poisoned are incredibly low.
-Animate Rope might be useful for slowing down the giantess, but it's powerless to actually stop her altogether and is therefore only about as productive as Mending would be.
-Greater Dispel Magic would be more effective at taking down the ship than it would be at combating the pretty-much-mundane giantess, so it's not going to be much help here.

Granted, it'd generally be a good idea to hold onto things that might be useful between now and the next time Elan can prepare spells, but if they're more than a day out from any other potential ambush locations, that's a nonissue. Burning higher-level spell slots might seem wasteful on an intuitive level, but I would argue that trading out powerful-but-currently-useless tools for basic-but-helpful ones is a valid exchange and probably the right move in this scenario.

Not to mention, if the party ultimately does end up throwing the giantess off, as has been suggested elsewhere in this thread, the ship being far enough up that she can't immediately jump back up or hit it reliably with a boulder would be critical to that strategy, and every ten feet they can maintain above the ground has serious implications regarding whether she'd even survive or remain conscious from the fall... so every Mending counts.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Here's hoping the Mechane goes down so our Heroes can reunite with V, Elan, and Belkar, and also reunite with the Greenhilt Sword.

[danielxcutter]

Just gonna throw my two cents in with the whole "is Elan being wasteful with Mending" debate: while it does seem like a waste of resources to use higher-level spell slots to cast Mending, just for the sake of patching the balloon, I think it's worth noting that there's not a lot else he could actually do other than that with those spell slots. Presumably, Elan's keeping any Cures he has on hand, rather than burning them to Mend, given his upward surge in competence, but aside from that, most of the spells he'd have as a Bard have limited use in this situation:

-Lesser Confusion would be a little applicable here, but as was just shown, it's unreliable even when it works and might just make matters worse.
- Image spells of any kind are absolutely useless here, though, as is Disguise Self, unless he could somehow impersonate Thyrm or something and give the giantess orders to stop, but it's doubtful he'd think of that on his own, or that it would succeed, especially if the giantess gets any kind of bonus for disbelieving illusions regarding her patron deity.
-Neutralize Poison can be safely burned, since the odds of anybody onboard the Mechane suddenly being poisoned are incredibly low.
-Animate Rope might be useful for slowing down the giantess, but it's powerless to actually stop her altogether and is therefore only about as productive as Mending would be.
-Greater Dispel Magic would be more effective at taking down the ship than it would be at combating the pretty-much-mundane giantess, so it's not going to be much help here.

Granted, it'd generally be a good idea to hold onto things that might be useful between now and the next time Elan can prepare spells, but if they're more than a day out from any other potential ambush locations, that's a nonissue. Burning higher-level spell slots might seem wasteful on an intuitive level, but I would argue that trading out powerful-but-currently-useless tools for basic-but-helpful ones is a valid exchange and probably the right move in this scenario.

Not to mention, if the party ultimately does end up throwing the giantess off, as has been suggested elsewhere in this thread, the ship being far enough up that she can't immediately jump back up or hit it reliably with a boulder would be critical to that strategy, and every ten feet they can maintain above the ground has serious implications regarding whether she'd even survive or remain conscious from the fall... so every Mending counts.

Actually, as a Bard, Elan doesn't need to prepare spells at all. He can use his spell slots freely.

[Xyril]

Nice exposition on the Andi theory of running a ship. Thanks, I'll not vote for you as captain on any pirate ship we may both be on in the future as pirates.

All in all, I think we are going to end up needing to agree to disagree on this.

@Peelee:
"Starving" is a continuum. How much longer can this person keep going to find other food? You left that out of your example, so the example doesn't suit the issue of Elan expending spells to keep the Mechane airworthy. With no Mechane you fail your mission. Not just getting through the pass, The Whole Mission. V has no teleport. Time is a factor in foiling Durkula.

Greywolf et al are correct in a highly short-term marginal analysis sort of way. In the situation--as it stands--mending the balloon won't make a huge difference, and right now, things aren't on a clear trajectory towards a situation where it will. However, as you pointed out, fixing the the balloon is a necessary but insufficient condition of getting on the only clear path to a win. Yes, even if the balloon is fixed, countless other things need to be done before they can continue, and there is no sign any of those things are getting done, but the alternative is that the balloon isn't fixed, and thus countless +1 things will be left to do.

The other side of the equation ignored by Greywolf etc. is the opportunity cost of Elan casting mending again. As far as I can tell, casting mending costs him some time and attention, and a spell slot.

EDIT: Okay, I was wrong, bards can free cast.

Unless there's a broken +5 Harpoon Gun of Giant Slaying I'm overlooking, this means that Mending would be wasteful because Elan's time could be better spent doing something else. Maybe someone sees what that something else might be, but I don't. Healing Roy (again) is the most useful thing I can think of, but I don't see the situation as so time crunched that Elan couldn't finish that task and then immediately Mend. Mending would mean Elan couldn't fight the giantess, either alone or supporting Roy, and Elan has been pretty effectively lately. That said, he's not really a brawler, and the giantess has enough points in sass that I'm not sure how well the Dashing Swordsman bonuses would help Elan.

There isn't much else Elan can do to effectively address the three critical and immediate issues Greywolf lists in his later post. To me, having him ineffectively address one of those issues is more wasteful than having him effectively address a less critical issue that is, by GW's own admission, related to one of the big three.

[Xyril]

Funny, there's this webcomic I've been reading where a Bard JUST CAST a spell confusion spell that cost a frost giantess a turn or two. Apparently other people are reading a different comic and I'm in the wrong discussion thread.

You are. In the comic we're all reading, the whole reason the warrior was fighting the giantess was to prevent the giantess from continuing to kill the crew and to damage the ship. At the time the bard cast confusion, the giantess had already realized that the warrior was a distraction from her ultimate goal, but she apparently didn't realize that she was attacking a less critical part of the ship. After the bard cast confusion, she spent a turn or two running towards the part of the ship with more critical targets to destroy and vital crew to murder. So instead of effectively spending her those turns ineffectively chopping up the deck and railings, she wastedthem running towards the balloon that was just fixed, before proceeding to waste another turn slashing open that balloon.

"They" in the sentence indicates Andi - and since it is a plural, someone else in the crew, rather than Andi herself. And the method is spelled out: summoning.

This is not true. The antecedent isn't clear at all from that sentence. Your interpretation is a possibly valid one, but it requires the addition of a hypothetical, implied other person to make it apply to "Andi." My interpretation was that Roy decided to go with the general "They" as a way to avoid passive voice and say, "While the Helium is initially conjured by magical means." It's not clear from the text or any subsequent strip which is the valid interpretation.

[Nightcanon]

No, it IS the point.


Hasn't it?


Again, unsure what this has to do with my point that "important" is not the opposite of "wasteful". I am not claiming that the envelope doesn't need to be fixed. I am saying that it is wasteful to use a level-2 spell to do so, and that getting rid of the cause of the holes is more important than running behind her fixing them.

GW

Using 2nd level slots to fix the balloon is a more efficient way of thwarting the giant's attempts to damage the balloon than using higher level slots to fix Roy. If the giant succeeds in crashing the airship, it could well take longer to fix than it currently would, so Elan's current magical stitches in time could be saving nine. Giant attacks balloon/Elan mends it while Roy finds a better weapon and Haley, Belkar, Blackwing and V close the gap between themselves and the ship is a pretty satisfactory way of spending a few rounds from the Order's point of view, and there's a chance that the giant might go for it on the basis that she can outlast Elan's casting.

[factotum]

Actually, as a Bard, Elan doesn't need to prepare spells at all. He can use his spell slots freely.

I assume by "prepare spells" he meant "the next time Elan's spell allocation gets refreshed". Doesn't he still have to sleep before that can happen? So, if he runs out of spell slots he's still in the "Can we hold off the rest of this fight for, oh, another 8 hours or so?" territory.

[danielxcutter]

I assume by "prepare spells" he meant "the next time Elan's spell allocation gets refreshed". Doesn't he still have to sleep before that can happen? So, if he runs out of spell slots he's still in the "Can we hold off the rest of this fight for, oh, another 8 hours or so?" territory.

Oh, never mind then.

[Forikroder]

damn i was hoping that confusion would last long enough for her to slice up Andi

[DataNinja]

I wonder. Is the mighty Rock Catching special quality more or less obscure than the knowledge that an epic-level spellcaster needs to be a minimum level of 21, not 20, for epic spells? He sure rattled that information off well enough five hundred strips ago.

I guess Roy reading through the Epic Handbook but skimming the Monster Manual does fit his mild megalomania.

I mean, I'd expect him to pick up points on high-level spellcasting just from being around his father.

[Wryte]

damn i was hoping that confusion would last long enough for her to slice up Andi

B: Hey, Tall, Blue, and Buxom, before you wreck my ship and kill us all, could you just do me one favor and kill the chick in the yellow coat first?

G: You wish death upon your own comrades, worm?!

B: Look, I spent my entire life trainin' and climbin' the ladder to be captain of my own ship, and now that I finally get the recognition I spent my whole life workin' toward, she cheapshots me in the back of the head and steals my thunder just 'cuz I ain't as old as her.

G: She denies you your rightful glory and achievement based upon arbitrary divisions of nature?

B: Yeah, that's about the shape of it.

G: Lean in, sister.

B: Say, how would you like to be part of an egalitarian crew that's tryin' to stop the end of the world?

[theNater]

Truly, he is understanding the plight of the cleric.

"Like bailing out a sinking ship with a thimble, most days".

Perhaps if you could explain how Elan could meaningfully prevent her from hitting things in a way that Roy could not do so alone, I would find your argument stronger. As it is, youre suggesting Elan do something nonspecific but effective to obtain the giant's attention instead of letting Roy do something nonspecific but effective.

Well, he can attack with a pun about Evil gods or cults or something, which will get her to counter with some kind of "How dare you? Thrym is awesome" rejoinder. "Oh, yeah?" Elan will say, "Then why is he trying to get the world destroyed?" We get a quick side comment from Roy about how Thrym was weirdly vague in his reasoning at the Godsmoot, and then she'll explain what she was told this mission's goals were, which will provide some hints about what's going on with Thrym.

That's my guess, anyway.

[danielxcutter]

B: Hey, Tall, Blue, and Buxom, before you wreck my ship and kill us all, could you just do me one favor and kill the chick in the yellow coat first?

G: You wish death upon your own comrades, worm?!

B: Look, I spent my entire life trainin' and climbin' the ladder to be captain of my own ship, and now that I finally get the recognition I spent my whole life workin' toward, she cheapshots me in the back of the head and steals my thunder just 'cuz I ain't as old as her.

G: She denies you your rightful glory and achievement based upon arbitrary divisions of nature?

B: Yeah, that's about the shape of it.

G: Lean in, sister.

B: Say, how would you like to be part of an egalitarian crew that's tryin' to stop the end of the world?

Dramatically improbable, yes, but if it actually does go more or less like this, I won't be as surprised as I probably should be.

[GrayGriffin]

I mean, I'd expect him to pick up points on high-level spellcasting just from being around his father.

Also, "epic = above level 20" seems like a fairly basic assumption to make.

[factotum]

Also, "epic = above level 20" seems like a fairly basic assumption to make.

I was going to quibble with that, but then I looked on the SRD and it shows the epic progression as being from level 21 onwards for all characters--so I'm not even sure where the "level 20 = epic" comes from in the first place?

[goodpeople25]

I wonder. Is the mighty Rock Catching special quality more or less obscure than the knowledge that an epic-level spellcaster needs to be a minimum level of 21, not 20, for epic spells? He sure rattled that information off well enough five hundred strips ago.

I guess Roy reading through the Epic Handbook but skimming the Monster Manual does fit his mild megalomania.

I think the actual info required seems to mainly be that Epic levels exist, (which seems to be baseline knowledge from that scene) when they actually start up, (which seems to be the divergence from him and Haley/Celia. And seems lkke a misconception on their part ) that there are epic feats (that you get one at level 21 I'm pretty sure follows the rules/pattern for regular feats that he definitely should/could know) and that Epic spellcasting is one of those feats.

And the second one I put in because it appears to be the conclusion and the spilt off point, but I'm not sure it's actually required info to fully know and Roy seems to use 3 and 4 to give the gist of 2 without directly using 2. I don't think that is really that obscure or even needing the epic handbook or exact rules.

[Killer Angel]

It's good to see a giant able to put at use that usually worthless ability...

[danielxcutter]

It's good to see a giant able to put at use that usually worthless ability...

Even the giant seems surprised/puzzled; you'd think that giants would at least use that ability to play giant catch or something.

[Centaur]

I’ve got an-nnn!-idea to get her attention back on me.

Dude! You got a live frost giant, a dead frost giant and a large boulder on board and you’re having problems maintaining lift?

Andi is going to explode the ship that is definitely going to happen.

In that case, the explosion is going to be big enough that the Order gets blown all the way to Firmament. Remember: the Mechane always arrives in the nick of time, even if it is a small splinter of the Mechane.

[Vio]

No, wasteful implies spending more resources than needed. Even if it is necessary (and in this case, as per the above, that is doubtful), that doesn't stop it from having reduced your resources more than strictly necessary.

In SW development, ...

But if you need to use a higher level spell slot, it is not more than needed.

I think the word you are looking for is expensive.
Because yeah, wasteful implies senseless spending, while here there is a good reason.

Though I suspect you know that, telling by how you are grasping at straws arguing how the holes should not be mended, and going on a tanngent about somethnig barely related in your field of expertise to assert competence.


Sorry if that is harsh, but I noticed you hijacking half the thread with this kind of pedantic arguing. Also sorry if somebody already pointed this out and I skipped over it.