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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Invoker: Int Half Caster

    Spoiler: Design Notes
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    - This is the gish option in base class form ('the missing 13th', 'the homebrew holy grail', whatever you want to call it)
    - I'm aiming for existing but less common mechanics to make it familiar but unique.
    - Aiming for a combat role distinctly in the category of 'middle liners' (rogue, monk, bladelock, valor bard, etc)
    - Don't want to steal the thunder of what can be done already (eg sorcadin)
    - Generic base class, specific subclasses (both in flavor and mechanics)

    The Invoker

    Level Proficiency Bonus Class Features Cantrips Known Spell Slots Slot Level
    1 +2 Esoteric Study, Fighting Style - - -
    2 +2 Spellcasting, Spellstrike 2 1 1st
    3 +2 Esoteric Pursuit 2 2 1st
    4 +2 ASI 2 2 1st
    5 +3 Extra Attack 2 2 2nd
    6 +3 Null Arcana 2 2 2nd
    7 +3 Pursuit Feature 3 2 2nd
    8 +3 ASI 3 2 2nd
    9 +4 - 3 2 3rd
    10 +4 Induce Weakness 3 2 3rd
    11 +4 Pursuit Feature 3 2 3rd
    12 +4 ASI 3 2 3rd
    13 +5 - 4 2 4th
    14 +5 Reinforce Arcana 4 2 4th
    15 +5 Pursuit Feature 4 2 4th
    16 +5 ASI 4 2 4th
    17 +6 - 4 2 5th
    18 +6 Incorruptible 4 2 5th
    19 +6 ASI 4 2 5th
    20 +6 Nexus Arcana 4 2 5th

    Hit Die: d8
    Armor Proficiencies: Light & Medium
    Weapon Proficiencies: Simple & Martial
    Saving Throw Proficiencies: Constitution & Intelligence
    Skill Proficiencies: Two from Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, History, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation

    Esoteric Study:
    As an action you can study a creature you can see to determine if it is under the effects of enchantment or illusion magic. You can use this ability a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1), and you regain all uses after finishing a Long Rest.

    Fighting Style:
    Choose one from Archery, Dueling, Great Weapon, Hand-and-a-half, Mariner, Polearms, Two-Weapon Fighting
    Spoiler: New Fighting Styles
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    Hand-and-a-half: +1 to hit and damage when using a versatile weapon in both hands
    Polearm: When using a reach weapon hostile creatures treat the space within your reach as difficult terrain


    Esoteric Spellcasting:
    Intelligence based spellcasting drawing from the spell list below and recovering spell slots after a short rest. You know spells equal to half your Invoker level plus your Intelligence modifier and at each level you can swap a spell known out for a new one. Spellcasting is treated as ½ Pact Magic progression for multiclassing purposes.

    Spoiler: Spell List
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    Cantrips
    Blade Ward*, Booming Blade, Chill Touch, Fire Bolt, Green Flame Blade, Light, Lightning Lure, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Shocking Grasp, Sword Burst, True Strike*

    1st
    Burning Hands, Catapult, Charm Person, Chromatic Orb, Corrosive Grasp*, Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Earth Tremor, Expeditious Retreat, False Life, Feather Fall, Flame Blade*, Fog Cloud, Ice Knife, Infernal Healing*, Jump, Mage Armor, Ray of Sickness, Silent Image, Thunderwave, Unseen Servant

    2nd
    Aganazzar's Scorcher, Blur, Cloud of Daggers, Darkvision, Discern Weakness*, Earthbind, Enhance Ability, Enlarge/Reduce, Gust of Wind, Hold Person, Invisibility, Knock, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Ray of Enfeeblement*, Scorching Ray, See Invisibility, Spider Climb, Web

    3rd
    Blink, Counterspell, Erupting Earth, Fear, Fireball, Fly, Haste, Lightning Bolt, Melf’s Minute Meteors, Protection from Energy, Ray of Exhaustion*, Slow, Stinking Cloud, Vampiric Touch, Water Breathing, Water Walk

    4th
    Blight, Confusion, Dimension Door, Ice Storm, Polymorph, Stoneskin, Wall of Fire

    5th
    Animate Objects, Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Immolation*, Telekinesis, Vortex*

    * = New or altered


    Spellstrike:
    When you cast a spell with a casting time of one action and that targets one or more creatures other than yourself you can choose to make a melee weapon attack as part of the spell, replacing one attack the spell would otherwise allow you to make. When making this attack your weapon is treated as magical for the purposes of overcoming damage resistance and immunity. If you hit with this attack the target takes damage from your weapon as normal and is then subject to the effects of the spell. A critical hit doubles the damage of both the weapon and spell effect on the target. If you miss the spell has no effect.

    Esoteric Pursuit:
    Choose one subclass option from below (currently there are 5).

    Spoiler: Esoteric Pursuits
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    Spoiler: Arcane Archer
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    Level 3: Ranged Spellstrike:
    You can also choose to deliver spells using a ranged weapon attack when using your Spellstrike feature.

    Level 3: Esoteric Spells:
    You add the following spells to your spells known for free at levels 3, 5, 9, 13 and 17: Guiding Bolt, Cordon of Arrows, Lightning Arrow, Freedom of Movement, Conjure Volley

    Level 7: Arcane Intuition:
    If you have spell slots available you have advantage on initiative checks, and if you are not incapacitated you can act even if you are surprised.

    Level 11: Improved Spellstrike:
    When you use your Spellstrike feature you can make a second weapon attack. Either attack can deliver the spell effect, though it can only occur once.

    Level 15: Peerless Accuracy:
    When you use your Spellstrike feature you cannot suffer disadvantage on your ranged weapon attacks, instead rolling normally.


    Spoiler: Avatar
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    Level 3: Restorative Spellstrike:
    When you hit a creature using your Spellstrike feature you can heal an amount of HP equal to your intelligence modifier (minimum 1).

    Level 3: Esoteric Spells:
    You add the following spells to your spells known for free at levels 3, 5, 9, 13 and 17: Compelled Duel, Aid, Vampiric Touch, Fire Shield, Bigby’s Hand

    Level 7: Arcane Mark:
    When using your Spellstrike feature any creature you hit suffers disadvantage on any attacks it makes that does not include you as a target until the beginning of your next turn.

    Level 11: Improved Spellstrike:
    When you use your Spellstrike feature you can make a second weapon attack. Either attack can deliver the spell effect, though it can only occur once.

    Level 15: Potent Spellstrike:
    When you hit with an attack using your Spellstrike ability the target has disadvantage on any saving throws made against the spell delivered.


    Spoiler: Magus
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    Level 3: Magus Bladework:
    While you aren't wearing heavy armor your speed increases by 10 feet and you can use your Intelligence instead of your Strength or Dexterity for the attack and damage rolls of melee weapon attacks.

    Level 3: Esoteric Spells:
    You add the following spells to your spells known for free at levels 3, 5, 9, 13 and 17: Longstrider, Levitate, Gaseous Form, Freedom of Movement, Passwall

    Level 7: Evasive Jaunt:
    When you take damage from a melee attack you can use your reaction to teleport to a location you can see up to 15 feet away from your attacker.

    Level 11: Improved Spellstrike:
    When you use your Spellstrike feature you can make a second weapon attack. Either attack can deliver the spell effect, though it can only occur once.

    Level 15: Ethereal Stride:
    Once per turn you can teleport to a location you can see as part of your movement as if you had walked.


    Spoiler: Binder
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    Level 3: Esoteric Rituals:
    You gain a ritual book that you can use to inscribe and cast ritual spells. Choose any three first level spells with the ritual tag from any class list to add to your ritual book. You can add other rituals to this ritual book if they are of a spell level equal to half your level (rounded up), otherwise following the rules for spellbooks as per the wizard abililty.

    Level 3: Potent Cantrips:
    You add your Intelligence bonus to the damage you deal with cantrips

    Level 3: Esoteric Spells:
    You add the following spells to your spells known for free at levels 3, 5, 9, 13 and 17: Bane, Spiritual Weapon, Dispel Magic, Arcane Eye, Planar Binding

    Level 7: Disrupt Magic:
    As an action you can disrupt the effects of a spell within 30 feet that you are aware of. If the effect is from a spell of a spell level higher than half your Invoker level (rounded down) you must succeed on an Intelligence check against DC 10 + the spell’s level. For up to one minute (requiring concentration) the effects of the spell are suppressed, though a suppressed spell is not halted and thus may still expire at the end of its duration. You can only disrupt any given spell or effect once per 24 hours.

    Level 11: Favored Spell:
    Choose one Invoker spell you know. You can cast this spell twice without expending a spell slot. You regain all uses of this ability at the end of a long rest.

    Level 15: Consume Magic:
    When you successfully use your Disrupt Magic ability you also regain one expended Invoker spell slot.


    Spoiler: Ghostwalker
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    Esoteric Spells:
    You add the following spells to your spells known for free at levels 3, 5, 9, 13 and 17: Dissonant Whispers, Invisibility, Phantom Steed, Phantasmal Killer, Mislead

    Level 3: Shadestep
    You become proficient in the Stealth skill, and add twice your proficiency bonus when making checks using the stealth skill. If you are already proficient in stealth you may choose another skill from the Invoker list to become proficient in.
    In addition, you may take the Hide action as a bonus action.

    Level 7: Shadow Hound:
    You gain control over a wispy shadow that you can direct to latch onto your targets. As a bonus action one creature you can see within 30 feet suffers disadvantage on saving throws against spells you cast. This effect lasts until you select a new creature or the creature moves beyond 30 feet from you.

    Level 11: Sudden Strike:
    When you use your Spellstrike feature you deal an extra +3d6 damage if you have advantage on the attack roll or if another enemy of the target is within reach of it.

    Level 15: Steal Spell:
    When you hit a creature capable of casting spells using your Spellstrike feature you can use your bonus action to drain the magic from them. The target must succeed on a Charisma saving throw against your Spell DC or lose one of their highest level spell slots (or equivalent) they have available. If a spell slot is successfully drained you recover one spent Invoker spell slot.
    Once you use this ability you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.



    Null Arcana:
    When you take damage from a spell cast by a creature you can see you can use your reaction to halve the damage taken.

    Induce Weakness:
    As a bonus action you can weaken a creature you can see within 30 feet. The creature must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failure the creature gains vulnerability against one damage type of your choice for 1 minute. Once you use this ability you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

    Reinforce Arcana:
    If you would lose concentration on a spell or a spell you cast is dispelled before its duration ends you may use your reaction to maintain concentration or prevent it from being dispelled. Once you use this ability you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

    Incorruptible:
    You gain proficiency in your choice of (Strength and Wisdom) or (Dexterity and Charisma) saving throws.

    Nexus Arcana:
    You can spend an action to gain 2 temporary spell slots which fade after 1 hour if not used. Once you use this ability you may not do so again until you complete a long rest.


    Please let me know what you think!
    Last edited by Kane0; 2018-01-03 at 12:44 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Default Re: Prototype class: Int Half Caster

    Nexus Arcana is OP. Most half-casters get, what? One 5th level slot?

    You get one PER FIGHT. Two, at your first fight of the day.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: Prototype class: Int Half Caster

    Well it ought to be if its a capstone, eh? Gotta make it worth those 20 levels.

    Barbarians enjoy +4 str and con, Druids can wildshape infinitely, Monks get 4 ki in the same manner, Paladins get to go completely super-saiyan, rogues can autosucceed a roll once per rest, Wizards get a 1st and 2nd at will, so on and so forth.

    What about once per long rest spend action to gain two extra spell slots (that can exceed the normal 2 maximum) that must be used within 1 hour?

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    Default Re: Prototype class: Int Half Caster

    None of which is equal to a free 5th level slot per encounter. That's better than the flipping Warlock capstone.

    Your new suggestion seems fine, though.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Default Re: Prototype class: Int Half Caster

    Sounds good to me, it's in.

    Also filled in some other subclass abilities.

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    Default Re: Prototype class: Int Half Caster

    This is looking good so far, but what it really needs to complete the design is what every other core full and half caster class possesses: Its own spell list. This includes some spells that are on other spell lists, because the game's had overlap in those for a long time, as well as some of its own unique spells that are likely designed to work with the rest of the class features (especially given that it has relatively few spell slots to work with).

    Not necessarily a lot of spells, something analogous to the ranger and paladin spell lists in size and scope perhaps, maybe a bit less given their precious few spell slots, but something which gives them options that aren't just firing off another spellcaster's bag of tricks.

    I'd suggest a spell selection that revolves around tactical use, spells that aren't necessarily good in every situation but are nonetheless good to have on hand when such situations come up, thus taking advantage of the fact that the typical member of this class will have far more spells known than spell slots. Not to mention spells that scale up when cast using higher spell slots of course.

    Esoteric Pursuits can be the repository of the archetype spells like Cleric Domains where the <prototype> learns spells not necessarily from their native spell list, which seems to be what you designed them for.

    As far as unique spells go, perhaps spells that can be altered during casting to deal different damage types (damage type chosen by the caster when they cast)?
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    Default Re: Prototype class: Int Half Caster

    Hmm, indeed you are right.

    Thinking about 7 custom spells (Two 1st and 2nd, one each of 3rd, 4th and 5th). Some Touch spells would be good, using melee spell attacks on singe targets with rider effects like the smite spells, with some scaling. That way valor bards and the like can poach them and get some use. Throw in a ray spell, an AoE, a buff, a debuff and a utility and that should round it out nicely.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2017-06-08 at 06:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Occultist: Int Half Caster

    Got an idea as I was perusing the Warlock class features earlier and realized that their Mystic Arcanum technically gives them more than 4 spell slots. They in fact get 8 in the final tally. 4 5th-level, 1 6th-level, 1 7th-level, 1 8th-level, and 1 9th-level. Granted, the 6th-9th level slots only have a single spell option for them and refresh after a long rest rather than a short one, but it's still a significant feature to consider if this is going to be a 'half-warlock' spell progression I think.

    So, my suggestion is as follows: One or two instances of 'Esoteric Arcanum' as part of the class progression. Each Esoteric Arcanum counts as 4th-level spell slot that refreshes after a long rest rather than a short one, and can only be used to cast a 4th or lower level spell from the Esoteric Pursuit Archetype spell list (thus making 13th level the lowest you can get your first instance of this).

    Not sure if that brings the class up to too many features or not, but it's been put forth for your consideration.
    Last edited by Crisis21; 2017-06-08 at 11:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    Hmm, interesting.

    Since they already get casting bonuses at 9, 13 and 17 perhaps something akin to the Blood Hunter's Curses? Would also stop me from just copying the warlock some more.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    Why no lightning lure in the cantrips section? It is one of the better cantrips for martial casters to have(EKs especially)

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    D'oh. Adding Lightning Lure!

    Also going to slightly alter the Avatar subclass, now it gets to be SAD to differentiate it from the Magus.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2017-08-22 at 09:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    Small update: Cleaned up a whole bunch of writing and formatting.

    Also looking for ideas on replacing the level 14 and 17/18 abilities as they are somewhat bland.

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    Update: Added Ghostwalker subclass. Inspiration drawn from Ghost-Faced Killer and Spellthief.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    Not seeing how the magus is very mobile. The jaunt is nice yes, but hardly usable, having to be hit as a requirement to be the mobile archetype seems odd. Not a bad ability but idk. I guess that's why the 3rd level ability gives you hp?

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    I didn't want it to invalidate the Mobile feat or swashbuckler rogue, but I could change the evasive ability to instead grant the ability to teleport with your movement. Treat it as difficult terrain so you still have a reason to run around normally?

    And yes the healing spellstrike is to increase survivability, the magus and avatar are the 'melee' subclasses, one tanky the other more mobile. Theres only 2 abilities difference between them though.

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    I didn't want it to invalidate the Mobile feat or swashbuckler rogue, but I could change the evasive ability to instead grant the ability to teleport with your movement. Treat it as difficult terrain so you still have a reason to run around normally?

    And yes the healing spellstrike is to increase survivability, the magus and avatar are the 'melee' subclasses, one tanky the other more mobile. Theres only 2 abilities difference between them though.
    Ok i can understand that. But neither are all that good at tanking. The avatar has a nice temp hp but its once per rest, and the subclass seems pretty damag-y. The only other thing i see is having Int be your attack stat with weapons means its easier to up Con.

    While the magus has a nice reactive teleport to taking damage, and thats it when i comes to mobility. I wouldn't mind more teleportation focus, but just normal movement is also fine. Having a heal on nearly every hit is good and gets better with improved spellstrike (they sack right or no?) but seems like it be better on someone focused on surviving like the tank. I think putting Regenerative Strike on Avatar or put something else with avatar. The Magus one could be something 'When you use the Spellstrike feature (or cast a spell? too much?), you can immediately teleport a number of feet away equal to 5 times the spell's level (minimum 5). ' Would make a pretty cool ability, seals in the 'mobility' focus when you include the level 7 ability.


    I think this could also be mended a bit with different spell lists (the ones they get via subclass). The magus should get longstrider, and similar movement based spells if thats his focus. Not sure on the tank spells but i think there are a few that might be better than smite spells.

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    Good points, let's see...

    How about:

    Avatar:
    Level 3: Restorative Spellstrike
    Level 7: Arcane Mark: Targets you hit with your Spellstrike suffer disadvantage on attack rolls that don't include you as a target until the beginning of your next turn.
    Level 11: Improved Spelltrike (correct, both attacks can benefit from restorative spellstrike)
    Level 15: Potent Spellstrike
    Also considering making Aid the bonus 2nd level spell.

    Magus:
    Level 3: Int to attack/damage. Possibly also use Int for AC bonus in place of Dex?
    Level 7: +5' Speed, reaction teleport away from attacker
    Level 11: Improved Spellstrike
    Level 15: Teleport-as-movement
    And swap Ensnaring Strike for Longstrider. Also looking through spells to swap out heat metal and fire shield for.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2017-09-18 at 12:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Good points, let's see...

    How about:

    Avatar:
    Level 3: Restorative Spellstrike
    Level 7: Arcane Mark: Targets you hit with your Spellstrike suffer disadvantage on attack rolls that don't include you as a target until the beginning of your next turn.
    Level 11: Improved Spelltrike (correct, both attacks can benefit from restorative spellstrike)
    Level 15: Potent Spellstrike
    Also considering making Aid the bonus 2nd level spell.

    Magus:
    Level 3: Int to attack/damage. Possibly also use Int for AC bonus in place of Dex?
    Level 7: +5' Speed, reaction teleport away from attacker
    Level 11: Improved Spellstrike
    Level 15: Teleport-as-movement
    And swap Ensnaring Strike for Longstrider. Also looking through spells to swap out heat metal and fire shield for.
    ooh i like the Avatar alot better. Honestly liked Ensnaring strike but i think Longstrider is better here. Oh and +10 to speed is better; most fast movement and similar effect are 10 ft minimum. For the spells Misty step is great, even if its on the class spell list, opens up a spell. Other options include Enhance ability, Pass Without Trace, maybe even Find Steed (probably not), Blur, Spider Climb, and Mirror Image.
    Fire shield could be swapped for Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, and maybe Greater Invisibility.

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    Okay how does that look?
    Avatar gets healing, a 'don't ignore me' and spells that adds to that
    Magus gets speed boost, Int for attacks, TP when hit and at laters levels TP movement as well as 5/5 movement based bonus spells.

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Okay how does that look?
    Avatar gets healing, a 'don't ignore me' and spells that adds to that
    Magus gets speed boost, Int for attacks, TP when hit and at laters levels TP movement as well as 5/5 movement based bonus spells.
    This is really really good. Though that bit about opportunity attacks is not needed, teleportation doesn't provoke.

    I imagine a good avatar would want booming blade to be his go to spellstrike while getting a reach weapon and Polearm fighting style. Spellstike, move slightly. They can hardly hit anyone but you, but they have to use more movement they they want, makes you sticky too.... Very good.

    The Magus feels like the free roaming skirmishing gish it should be now, aided with the ability to fight smarter not harder, and spells to do it too. I have no major issues, only a minor one. I'm taking alot of inspiration from the Nomad mystic abilties, (discipline as well as features from subclass) , when i suggest something. what do you think of the Memory of One Thousand Steps feature as a substitute for the 7th level feature. I suggest because i like the idea of the magus trying to be untouchable but still in the thick of it, while the avatar is the wall you can't break through, so being able to dodge an attack with a quick teleport instead of runway after getting hit.


    All in all one of my favorite arcane half-casters, bookmarking alongside your ranger. What do you plan on doing next ?

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    Thankyou! Always good to hear.

    It would be easy to put in but keeping track of where you were to keep TPing back might get to be a pain after a while. Plus the freedom of picking anywhere within 15' to make them chase you or give an opening for another in-and-out attack on your next turn is nice.

    Oh, uh that's a question I don't get asked much. I was thinking of posting copies of my fighter and sorcerer, though those are less intensive than my ranger. After that I don't really have anything in the works, I suppose inspiration will strike at some point.

    Edit: I'm thinking of taking the scrapped glyphs idea and making that a subclass of its own, taking a BFC/Partybuff sort of role.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2017-09-18 at 05:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    Null Arcane is way too strong for 6th level. It's just way better than anything a standard class has.

    Evasion seems the closest class feature to it. But Evasion is way more limited. For one it's at level 7 not 6. It's also only against DEX saves, sure it's better than Null arcane in certain cases like against fireball. But Null arcane is against magic spell attacks and all 6 save types. It basically is resistance magic. And when it's compared to Fiendish Resistance (a 10th level feature) it is still likely stronger.

    The drawbacks are basically to make DMs spite the class. Only get 1 reaction per round and must see the caster, so a spiteful DM will use multiple spells per round and invisible/unseen casters.

    Null Arcane might also combo too well with Magus and Summoner level 7 features. For Summoner invoker can split physical damage to the Meat shield and half magic damage. For Magus the character just teleports out of range of melee fighters. It might have to much synergy with ghostwalker as well, as hide as a bonus action creates very good defensive circumstances.

    The incomplete Glyphseeker also looks surprisingly weak compared to the other options. It might actually be too weak.

    Arcane Archer looks okay, it might be the closest to balanced. But I think it might still be slightly strong. The acting while surprised might be a little distasteful to DMs. And if I played against a DM that put a few NPC A. A. Invokers and I surprised them and got killed in the surprise round before my action I would be salty.

    Magus likely has some very annoying gameplay aspects based on movement and positioning. Or having a lot of it's strengths ignored in a situation where minis are not used.

    Overall I think invoker is too strong even if Null Arcane is changed to something more in line with level 6. It looks like a lot of these features are unbalanced when compared to similar level class features. Most likely on the too strong side, some on the too weak. And in Particular it is doing too much at once, most classes started with just 3 paths in the PHB. Balancing 7 is a huge challenge, odds are 3 or 4 will never be played and 1 or more is just too strong.

  23. - Top - End - #23
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    Quote Originally Posted by Badidea View Post
    Null Arcane is way too strong for 6th level. It's just way better than anything a standard class has.

    Evasion seems the closest class feature to it. But Evasion is way more limited. For one it's at level 7 not 6. It's also only against DEX saves, sure it's better than Null arcane in certain cases like against fireball. But Null arcane is against magic spell attacks and all 6 save types. It basically is resistance magic. And when it's compared to Fiendish Resistance (a 10th level feature) it is still likely stronger.

    The drawbacks are basically to make DMs spite the class. Only get 1 reaction per round and must see the caster, so a spiteful DM will use multiple spells per round and invisible/unseen casters.

    Null Arcane might also combo too well with Magus and Summoner level 7 features. For Summoner invoker can split physical damage to the Meat shield and half magic damage. For Magus the character just teleports out of range of melee fighters. It might have to much synergy with ghostwalker as well, as hide as a bonus action creates very good defensive circumstances.

    The incomplete Glyphseeker also looks surprisingly weak compared to the other options. It might actually be too weak.

    Arcane Archer looks okay, it might be the closest to balanced. But I think it might still be slightly strong. The acting while surprised might be a little distasteful to DMs. And if I played against a DM that put a few NPC A. A. Invokers and I surprised them and got killed in the surprise round before my action I would be salty.

    Magus likely has some very annoying gameplay aspects based on movement and positioning. Or having a lot of it's strengths ignored in a situation where minis are not used.

    Overall I think invoker is too strong even if Null Arcane is changed to something more in line with level 6. It looks like a lot of these features are unbalanced when compared to similar level class features. Most likely on the too strong side, some on the too weak. And in Particular it is doing too much at once, most classes started with just 3 paths in the PHB. Balancing 7 is a huge challenge, odds are 3 or 4 will never be played and 1 or more is just too strong.
    I agree Null Arcana is strong, i don't think it breaks anything. Compare this to paladin's level 6 aura its perfectly inline. Aura of Protection can have you and everyone around you make every single save. I think its on the same power level.

    The glyphseeker is clearly unfinished so yeah its weak. The arcane archer isn't doing anything new with acting while surprised, barbarians do it, the revised ranger always remains alert, by level 4 you can take alert feat and boom never surprised.

    The magus seems fine to me and i almost exclusively play theater of the mind.

    Honestly I'm not seeing what you're seeing here. Just because most classes didn't start with more than 3 subclasses doesn't mean much when there's more than just the PHB that exists.

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    Indeed. Null Arcana is a good ability, meant to be on par pimarily with Uncanny Dodge and Aura of Warding but also Evasion and Aura of Protection.
    It doesn't encourage DM spite any more than spells and abilities that require sight of the target, it's a deliberate limitation along with the reaction requirement. Both Magus and Summoner features require a reaction too, so you can only benefit from one or the other, much like giving up opportunity attacks in order to use it.

    I'm not terribly invested in Glyphseeker, it's based on a scrapped idea from v1 so I could just remove it. There are plenty of subclasses already, even the ghostwalker and summoner aren't really necessary. That said Cleric has 7 and Wizard has 8 just in the PHB so it's not unheard of. Actually each subclass has only 4 abilites compared to other classes which generally have a bit more going on in them, so makes balancing a bit easier with less to work with.

    AA acting while surprised functions like the Alert feat or barbarian feral instinct, though I admit it's not an ability that fits super well. Any ideas for a replacement would be welcome.

    Magus: No worse than Cunning action, Misty Step, Shadow Step or Relentless Avenger, no?

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    I'm just saying you might be trying to do too much at once. Balancing 7 paths in a homebrew class at once is going to have unintended results. If you focus on 2 or 3 you might be able to get something a little more balanced. If you focused on Melee, Ranged and maybe a 3rd archetype you could make them better balanced and more flavorful. And after that you can build from there. As it is I feel each path is focused on doing exactly 1 combat thing perfectly, which likely leads to balance issues. The power curve feels more in line with 3.5 or pathfinder than 5e. Particularly since several features feel too early in the class.

    I see no real lore in this class. I don't understand why it would exist in a world or what it would do. Is it just a super soldier with no skills or goals? Does it have a combat weakness? What resources does it get back on long rests? All I see is two spell slots, so why would the party not make the invoker watch all night every night.

    Say I want to play a stealthy melee ranger (Drizzt clone). Why wouldn't I first take 3 levels of invoker to get ghostwalker's level 3 feature, an extra fighting style and cantrips? It's just better right. In fact if I want to play a rogue, I looks better to take 3 level invoker for ghostwalker or magus first. An Archer (fighter) would take three levels for arcane archer first and firebolt on bow attacks all day (maybe also true strike).

    Is spellstrike suppose to work with other class features tied to weapon attacks (e.g. sneak attack, smite)? Can a wizard take advantage of magic items to gain more accurate spells? I can make an Avatar that heals 5 every round, is that balanced?

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    Oh definitely, but I'm not afraid of a little hard work and a lot of overhauling. My ranger got almost entirely rewritten at least twice, the Invoker had three iterations around the core mechanics, starting with three subclasses before I began expanding. If you spot something let me know, that's why it's up for all to see after all.

    Fluff is the most mutable part, as always. I've envisioned the base Invoker as a sort of 'hands-on wizard', getting his skills through a combination of trial-and-error and less conventional methods of learning magic (hence 'esoteric' being the word of the day). He doesn't receive magic from some outside source, he does not study it professionally and it certainly isn't innate talent. The invoker is a true adventurer; delving into the unknown, getting his hands dirty and coming up with new ways to use what he knows in the field. It comes across as a mishmash because it is.

    Dips are always powerful, most classes are frontloaded to provide the meat of the experience in the first few levels. We can compare pretty easily:
    Cleric 2: 3x Cantrips, +2 caster levels, domain, channel divinity. That's 4 features
    Fighter 2: Action surge, second wind, Fighting style. That's 3 features
    Pally 2: Divine sense, LoH, Fighting style, smite, +1 Caster level. 3 features and a ribbon.
    Rogue 2: Expertise, sneak attack +1d6, thieves cant, cunning action. 3 featrues and a ribbon, plus one skill if multiclassing after 1st level.
    'Lock 2: Patron, 2x cantrips, 2x invocations, +2 Pact magic caster levels. 4 features.
    Ranger 2: Alacrity, Skirmish, fighting style, +1 caster level. 4 features
    Invoker 2: Study, Fighting style, spellstrike, 2x cantrips and +1 Pact magic caster level. 4 Features and a ribbon

    Yep spellstrike works with other stuff, just like Booming blade and Green Flame Blade. More flexible in fact, since you can put something like Thunderwave or Hold Person through your Spellstrike rather than just Firebolt. Saves me making a smite mechanic and allows you to use Paladin and/or Warlock smites on top if you really want to burn through your slots and nova.
    But I don't see a way a wizard can get better casting out of Invoker levels, and healing Int Mod HP once to twice per round with melee attacks doesn't strike me as super poewrful, outside of bag-of-rats shenanigans perhaps. You are a d8 Hit Die with medium armor after all.

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    I think my point was a little unclear. While these features are all roughly balanced to one or more than exist. They are all focused on combat, synergize very well with each other and could almost all be considered strong features. The class itself is too strong when considered all together. And in some ways the class is better at being a rogue, ranger or fighter than those classes, particularly at early level.

    The magus giving INT for attacks is a considerable change that would be key to Arcane Trickster Rogues and Eldrich Knight Fighters. But spellstrike is likely a bigger issue, because spellstrike scales with those classes spells getting stronger spells and getting more spell slots. But sneak attack scales with rogue level. So an Arcane Trickster gets both scales at once and can put that all on one attack? A weapon attack, an attack spell and sneak attack damage together in one. And with a class that can cast true strike? Sounds broken.

    How does the class adventure and what skills will they use? And where are the features that make this class useful to the party. Expand the class so it's not just 1 purpose.

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    Default Re: Invoker: Int Half Caster

    Quote Originally Posted by Badidea View Post
    They are all focused on combat, synergize very well with each other and could almost all be considered strong features.
    Yes, yes and yes. Most classes are designed similarly. Compare to the Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, etc. They all have abilities that focus on combat ability (it is a great misfortune that the other two pillars don't get as much attention) and their abilities work well with each other. If they didn't you would get the 3e monk all over again, it's primary criticism was that it had lots of neat abilities but they didn't work together. Besides, there is Esoteric Study and half the spell list not including the Binder, how much does that count for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Badidea View Post
    The class itself is too strong when considered all together. And in some ways the class is better at being a rogue, ranger or fighter than those classes, particularly at early level.
    I have only playtested an Invoker as part of LMoP with a Fighter, Cleric and Bard so I don't have a huge pool of experience to draw from. I did notice that Spellstrike made a significant boost to average damage compared to the fighter at level 2 but it didn't impact the fun or force me to rework the encounters, it didn't seem any worse than sneak attack, smites, action surge, rage, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badidea View Post
    The magus giving INT for attacks is a considerable change that would be key to Arcane Trickster Rogues and Eldrich Knight Fighters. Spellstrike is likely a bigger issue, because spellstrike scales with those classes spells getting stronger spells and getting more spell slots. A weapon attack, an attack spell and sneak attack damage together in one. And with a class that can cast true strike? Sounds broken.
    Int to attack is a nice bonus, but one still wouldn't want to dump Str/Dex in a lot of cases. Spellstrike isn't that much more useful than weapon cantrips for an AT, though it gives them the ability to 'smite' with their (limited) spell slots if they wish. Note that Invoker casting only stacks with Warlock when multiclassing, an AT or EK wouldn't add 1/2 invoker levels to their 1/3 fighter/rogue levels to determine spell slots. They would essentially be swapping a couple rogue levels to upgrade their BB or GFB damage to a more damaging cantrip and add in the ability to burn slots on delivering things like Chromatic Orb. If you want we can run the math, I'm fairly confident it will come out pretty close to what other classes and builds can achieve.
    Also True Strike sucks, I like to houserule it to a bonus action. Blade Ward too.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2017-09-19 at 06:02 PM.

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