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    Default LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Hello!
    Welcome to the LGBT+ information thread. This thread is meant to answer all sorts of questions one may have about the community, and have a casual atmosphere.

    As such, this is an education thread, not a support thread (which you can conveniently find there instead). Why the split? Because the main thread is mostly populated by LGBT people who are seeking, well, support, and some questions or misunderstandings can be causes of additional stress. You can ask these questions here instead, and receive answers from LGBT people or allies. They can be as general or as precise as you want.

    A couple things you need to know before browsing the rest of this thread:
    - If you are LGBT+ but do not wish to educate people, or are likely to be offended by the lack of knowledge of some people, you're probably better off not reading this thread.
    - If you have questions, go ahead! But try to stay polite and open-minded. If your question has an element of support (like “I think I might be transgender, how do I know for sure?” or “my LGBT friend has problems with their parents, how could I help?”), the support thread may also help, so try there as well.
    - avoid misinformation. If you don't know the answer, don't intentionally pull stuff out of your backside. If you do so repeatedly, I will hunt you down, and GM your next game, which will include Drizz't and a Kender as GMPCs. (Theoretically unenforceable? You can never be 100% sure. Don't tempt your luck.)
    - Mind the forum rules and avoid the subjects of politics or religion (or sexually-explicit content for that matter). Otherwise, there is no subject that is preemptively banned, and we'd like it to stay this way; therefore, if a discussion upsets or angers you, report the offending posts (if a forum rule has actually been infringed) and/or step away from the computer until you calm down, instead of starting a flame war. This is the Internet. We're physically stuck behind your screen. The worst we can do is send stupid PMs until the inbox is full – and you don't even have to acknowledge their content before deleting them! We can't follow you and force you to keep arguing.
    - No one here should be shunned here for unfortunately lacking some knowledge but desiring to learn. Nothing is self-evident, and that's even more true where gender and sexuality are concerned. (Now, if you request to be educated but act deliberately obtuse when replied to, you're gonna have a bad time. Don't be deliberately obtuse. Nobody likes morons.)

    Spoiler: Glossary (thanks Zorg!), read first before asking a vocabulary question
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    And, for reference, here is a list of commonly used words and definitions by our community. Please understand that this list is currently undergoing construction right now. Any contributions to the list are appreciated.
    LGBT: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans*

    LGBTAI: LGBT+Asexual/Allies+Intersex+All Inclusive

    QUILTBAG:
    Q - Queer and Questioning
    U - Unidentified
    I - Intersex
    L - Lesbian
    T - Transgender, Transexual
    B - Bisexual
    A - Asexual, Agender, Aromantic
    G - Gay, Genderqueer

    Where a word below is in italics, that means it has it's own entry on the list.

    A note on labels: many of these labels are seemingly interchangeable, and for some people they are. However, please do not presume to correct or judge another person's use of a label. Bisexual and Pansexual are especially tricky in this regard, as are transgender and transsexual to a lesser degree.
    Often the difference in why one person feels one label is appropriate and not another is deeply personal. If you wish to know more it is probably a topic to seek private advice on, from one of the people listed in the next section.


    AFAB/AMAB: Assigned Female/Male at Birth

    Agender(ed): Someone who lacks a gender.

    Androgyne: Gender Identity with male and female aspects.

    Androsexual: A person who is attracted to men.

    Aromantic: A person who does not feel any romantic feeling toward anyone, independently of sexual attraction.

    Asexual: A person who does not feel any/some sexual attraction, independently of any romantic feeling.

    Binary, The: See: Gender Binary.

    Bisexual: 1. attracted to two genders; 2. attracted to one's own gender and another gender; 3. attracted to various genders; 4. attracted to people regardless of gender; 5. ask the person who says they're bi what exactly they mean by that. See also Pansexual

    Cis: See: Cisgender

    Cisgender (CG): Somebody whose gender and sex align.

    Demisexual: A person who is sexually attracted to someone(s) only after they have formed an intense emotional relationship with.

    Dysphoria: The disassociation Trans* people feel with their own body.

    Male-to-Female (MtF): Someone who was assigned male at birth, but is female. (AKA: trans woman)

    Female: See: Woman

    Female-to-Male (FtM): Someone who was assigned female at birth, but is male. (AKA: trans man)

    FAAB: Female Assigned at Birth.

    Feminine: Something generally associated by society with women.

    FFS: Facial Feminization Surgery: Surgery to reduce chin/nose/cheekbones. Associated primarily with MAAB Trans people

    FtM: See: Female to Male

    Gay: A man who is attracted to men.

    Gender Binary: The commonly held notion that there are only men and women on two extremes, with nothing in between.

    Gender Expression (GE): How one expresses their Gender Identity to society.

    Gender Identity (GI): How one feels inside society's idea of "man, woman, or other".

    Genderfluid: Someone who fluctuates between different genders.

    Genderqueer (GQ): Someone who is not of a binary gender; someone who is not male or female.

    Gynosexual: A person who is attracted to women.

    Heterosexual: A person who is attracted to members of the opposite gender.

    Homosexual: A person who is attracted to members of their gender.

    HRT: Hormone replacement therapy. MtF's tend to progestrogens, oestrogens and androgen blockers, while FtM's take testosterone almost exculsively.

    Lesbian: A woman who is attracted to women.

    MAAB: Male Assigned at Birth.

    Male-to-Female (MtF): Someone who was assigned male at birth, but is female. (AKA: trans woman)

    Man/men: A cis man or trans man. Male.

    Masculine: Something generally associated by society with men.

    Pansexual: A person who is attracted to people regardless of gender. See also Bisexual

    Polyamorous: A person who is interested in a relationship with more than one person.

    Presenting: Trans* shorthand for appearing as their preferred gender, regardless of any HRT, SRS or other changes.

    Trans*: Transsexual and Transgender primarily, with the asterisk denoting that the trans- prefix could be followed by any number of appropriate words. It also includes other labels, and is a catch-all term for people who identify as something other than their biological sex at birth.

    Transgender: Used in reference to a person whose sex(body) and gender(mind) are at odds or do not match. A transgender person can also identify as genderqueer, transsexual, or may use transgender as their only identity.

    Transitioning: The process a Trans* person undergoes to move to their preferred gender. Often includes HRT, SRS, FFS.

    Transsexual: In common terms the same as transgender above. In medical terms refers specifically to people who wish to transition from male to female or female to male, not accommodating any other options.

    SRS: Sex Reassignment Surgery: Surgery to replace/transform a vagina into a penis, or vice versa. Mastectomies or plastic surgery may be used on breasts.

    Sexual Orientation (SO): How one identifies who they are attracted to.

    Significant Other(s) (SO): Person(s) you are in a relationship with.

    Third-gendered: Someone who fits in a local society's third gender, usually male performing female tasks, occasionally vice versa. Also a person who feels they do not identify with any other gender identity.

    Woman: A cis woman or trans woman. Female.

    Allies: Hetereosexual-Cisgender people who support equality for sexual, gender, and romantic minorities.


    Spoiler: Personal Consulting List: because sometimes, you'd rather ask something by PM.
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    -Philemonite, for gay-related subjects.
    -Mono Vertigo, for asexuality-related subjects.
    - Rain Dragon, for trans-related subjects (particularly trans men/FtM).
    -Miriel, for feminism, gender, asexuality, and trans-related subjects (particularly trans women/MtF).
    -Golentan for bisexuality, genderfluidity/questioning-related subjects, and issues of childhood abuse.
    -Irish Musician for cis/straight point of view on general LGBT+ subjects.
    -Jormengand for bisexuality, trans, polyamory, and genderfluidity-related subjects.
    -Arachu for trans (particularly trans women/MtF), hormones, bisexuality, pansexuality, and polyamory-related subjects.
    -Astrella for trans (particularly trans women/FtM), LGBT+ rights, and lesbianly subjects. (Lesbianly is totally a word, shut up.*)
    -Eldest for bisexuality, pansexuality, polyamoury, and kink-related subjects (still keep it PG-13 please).
    -Kesnit for trans-related subjects (particularly trans men/FtM).



    *this is why savvy people don't usually let me manage a thread.


    Shameless copied from Mono Vertigo.

    Previous thread.
    Last edited by Shamash; 2017-06-06 at 11:42 AM.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread III 2b or not 2b?

    Oh thank you for opening this, much appreciated.
    So, I have a question: my girlfriend is very involved with the LGBT community and frequently goes to pride marches and stuff like that. I'm seeing this as a good occasion to support equality and get to know her from yet another point of view and I'm thinking of accompanying her to the next one.
    She's very happy about it and, when I asked her if there was anything I needed to know she said that no, I'd be fine just being myself.
    However, I'm far more disenchanted than her when it comes to people and I know that there is a significant amount of zealotry and intolerance in the LGBT community that I should consider before putting myself in a vulnerable position.
    So, my question is this: what kind of etiquette should a heterosexual couple adopt when going to a pride parade in order to avoid setting anyone off?

    Edit: to clarify, I'm not worried about the tolerant and open minded people that I will find there, those are the reason I'm going and I find them fantastic, I'm worried about the very vocal and militant minority that will be looking for an excuse to pick up a fight or push me away. So I don't want to give them any opening.
    Last edited by Kalmageddon; 2017-06-06 at 01:21 AM.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread III 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmageddon View Post
    Oh thank you for opening this, much appreciated.
    So, I have a question: my girlfriend is very involved with the LGBT community and frequently goes to pride marches and stuff like that. I'm seeing this as a good occasion to support equality and get to know her from yet another point of view and I'm thinking of accompanying her to the next one.
    She's very happy about it and, when I asked her if there was anything I needed to know she said that no, I'd be fine just being myself.
    However, I'm far more disenchanted than her when it comes to people and I know that there is a significant amount of zealotry and intolerance in the LGBT community that I should consider before putting myself in a vulnerable position.
    So, my question is this: what kind of etiquette should a heterosexual couple adopt when going to a pride parade in order to avoid setting anyone off?

    Edit: to clarify, I'm not worried about the tolerant and open minded people that I will find there, those are the reason I'm going and I find them fantastic, I'm worried about the very vocal and militant minority that will be looking for an excuse to pick up a fight or push me away. So I don't want to give them any opening.
    Well, as she said there is nothing special for you to know, just be yourself and have fun.

    Zealotry and intolerance is not very common among the LGBT community, sure there some militants that are very engaged and that is true for every type group, but I think a pride parade is a moment where everyone wants to have fun not a place for discussing politics, no one goes there for that... I think (Even as a gay guy I have never being a big fan of crowds so I have never gone to a LGBT pride parade).

    I guess you just need to use common sense, if someone asks you your opinion on a sensitive subject try not to say anything that would clearly piss someone off such as "being gay or trans is wrong and they should be put to death" anything other than that and I believe you'll be fine. Tell the truth, that you are learning and wants to be an ally but still don't know much about how LGBT things work. I don't think anyone would be angry or rude with someone who doesn't know things but is eager to learn more.

    But such events are not for everyone even among the LGBT community so if you feel that is not a place you will be comfortable going... Just don't go. You don't have to be a part of every single aspect of your girlfriend’s life just as she doesn’t need to be of yours, don't go to a place just to make someone happy go because you want to go and you think it will add to your life or be a good experience.

    Also, if you end up going don't forget to tell us how it went :D
    Last edited by Shamash; 2017-06-06 at 11:45 AM.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    I've only got 2 questions.

    1) Where does Genderfluid sit on the spectrum? Can't seem to find too much about it via google but my gogglefu is not the best. Mostly because I'm apparently genderfluid, which is a good descriptor, but the terminology seems to change on me all the time and I wind up pissing people off

    2, and this one's been bugging me for some years now (and why I no longer really socialize with any activist groups I used to know) ) Is there any particular rationality that causes the irrational thinking of "If you're not with us 100% in everything we say, you're against us, and we won't listen to any other viewpoints or thoughts AT ALL NO MATTER WHAT" I see going on in a lot of activist and support threads?... Come to think of it this question may be better suited for a psychology forum, but I'm curious what other (l, g, b, t, or +) folks think. Met a few who agree with me, one of my gay friends can't stand the old activist groups he used to hang with since they were starting to get extreme, so I know it's not all-encompassing, I kinda just wanna know if anyone else can figure out the "Why" of it.
    Last edited by TheGrimPeddler; 2017-06-06 at 10:18 PM.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrimPeddler View Post
    2, and this one's been bugging me for some years now (and why I no longer really socialize with any activist groups I used to know) ) Is there any particular rationality that causes the irrational thinking of "If you're not with us 100% in everything we say, you're against us, and we won't listen to any other viewpoints or thoughts AT ALL NO MATTER WHAT" I see going on in a lot of activist and support threads?... Come to think of it this question may be better suited for a psychology forum, but I'm curious what other (l, g, b, t, or +) folks think. Met a few who agree with me, one of my gay friends can't stand the old activist groups he used to hang with since they were starting to get extreme, so I know it's not all-encompassing, I kinda just wanna know if anyone else can figure out the "Why" of it.
    Yes, there actually is. The few that come to my mind are:
    1. Ingroup-outgroup thinking. This is the tendency to favour those in your 'ingroup' (i.e. people similar to you) over people in an 'outgroup' (i.e. people different to you). In some cases, the ingroup becomes 'people who agree with me 100%'- and you start to favour them massively, and start to view people who deviate from that opinion as an outgroup, and begin to demonise the outgroup. When someone disagrees with you in that scenario, you immediately assign all the negative traits you assume members of the outgroup to have, and proceed to hate them until they join your ingroup.
    2. Backfire effect. When someone attacks your beliefs, you tend to hold onto them more strongly. People with marginal opinions have their opinions attacked often and angrily, which steadily causes them to disregard more and more evidence/alternate theories until they can't tolerate any kind of contradiction. This kind of thinking often masks hidden doubt, which is protected by completely disregarding contradictions that might create the unpleasant sensation of uncertainty in one's beliefs. It's easier to just ignore the alternative than change what you think.
    3. The sensation of being morally right is intoxicating. Outrage is fun, affirming, makes you feel good, and gives you the perfect excuse for any bad behaviour- you were in the right, they were in the wrong, therefore anything you do is right and anything they do is wrong. It's a difficult sensation to let go of.
    4. Information spiral. Because of the way news recommendations work on sites like Facebook, combined with the ability of the internet to bring together people who would never otherwise meet, online sites have a tendency to attract and encourage extreme viewpoints, which are then supported by the presence of other people that share those viewpoints. Ideas which otherwise might have quietly disappeared are supported and grow into large communities, and the desire to fit into those communities causes people to adopt ever more extreme viewpoints. This ties into the whole 'ingroup' thing from the first point.

    There's other factors at play as well, but a combination of these effects can easily create the kind of experience you had. It turns extremist viewpoints into mainstream viewpoints and then prevents those viewpoints from being challenged.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Oh thank you for opening this, much appreciated.
    So, I have a question: my girlfriend is very involved with the LGBT community and frequently goes to pride marches and stuff like that. I'm seeing this as a good occasion to support equality and get to know her from yet another point of view and I'm thinking of accompanying her to the next one.
    She's very happy about it and, when I asked her if there was anything I needed to know she said that no, I'd be fine just being myself.
    However, I'm far more disenchanted than her when it comes to people and I know that there is a significant amount of zealotry and intolerance in the LGBT community that I should consider before putting myself in a vulnerable position.
    So, my question is this: what kind of etiquette should a heterosexual couple adopt when going to a pride parade in order to avoid setting anyone off?
    I've been to a couple Gay Prides (in Bologna, if it's relevant) with my ex-girlfriend (who's bisexual). We never had any problem, and we were a couple that did a lot of "public displays of affection" or whatever they're called now.

    There were a few groups of zealots in the parade, but they kept to themselves and were busy loudly protesting this or that thing against the rest of the parade which wasn't zealot enough for them.

    I would suggest just going and doing whatever you want. I think the chance of being bothered is actually extremely low.

    (I replied mostly because I saw you're Italian too, so my experience might be more relevant. I figure the atmosphere can change a lot depending on the place.)
    Last edited by Cozzer; 2017-06-07 at 04:42 AM.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrimPeddler View Post
    I've only got 2 questions.

    1) Where does Genderfluid sit on the spectrum? Can't seem to find too much about it via google but my gogglefu is not the best. Mostly because I'm apparently genderfluid, which is a good descriptor, but the terminology seems to change on me all the time and I wind up pissing people off

    2, and this one's been bugging me for some years now (and why I no longer really socialize with any activist groups I used to know) ) Is there any particular rationality that causes the irrational thinking of "If you're not with us 100% in everything we say, you're against us, and we won't listen to any other viewpoints or thoughts AT ALL NO MATTER WHAT" I see going on in a lot of activist and support threads?... Come to think of it this question may be better suited for a psychology forum, but I'm curious what other (l, g, b, t, or +) folks think. Met a few who agree with me, one of my gay friends can't stand the old activist groups he used to hang with since they were starting to get extreme, so I know it's not all-encompassing, I kinda just wanna know if anyone else can figure out the "Why" of it.
    1) Well it is it's own thing, I don't really get your problem.

    2) Well, you have to contextualize. These people normally suffered a lot of discrimination and hate that's why they just generalize everyone as an enemy until they prove themselves, it's a defense mechanism. They don't do it because they are jerks they do it because most of the people around them are jerks.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrimPeddler View Post
    I've only got 2 questions.

    1) Where does Genderfluid sit on the spectrum? Can't seem to find too much about it via google but my gogglefu is not the best. Mostly because I'm apparently genderfluid, which is a good descriptor, but the terminology seems to change on me all the time and I wind up pissing people off
    Hi, fellow genderfluid person here. What terms exactly do you have questions about? Genderfluid is one of many identities under the nonbinary/genderqueer umbrella. As all nonbinary people, genderfluid people are also technically trans/transgender, though some chose not to identify as such for various reasons. One important thing to know is, that while all genderfluid experience some sort of gender change (thus the name), how exactly that happens can vary widely. Some people switch between all kinds of genders (I do), some only between a few, and none of these genders have to be the "opposite" gender. There's also the word genderflux which is a subset of genderfluidity where only the intensity of one's gender changes (like female-> demigirl-> agender). Also, how often someone's gender changes is also very different, it can happen several times a day, to only every few months or more, and everything in between.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrimPeddler View Post
    2, and this one's been bugging me for some years now (and why I no longer really socialize with any activist groups I used to know) ) Is there any particular rationality that causes the irrational thinking of "If you're not with us 100% in everything we say, you're against us, and we won't listen to any other viewpoints or thoughts AT ALL NO MATTER WHAT" I see going on in a lot of activist and support threads?... Come to think of it this question may be better suited for a psychology forum, but I'm curious what other (l, g, b, t, or +) folks think. Met a few who agree with me, one of my gay friends can't stand the old activist groups he used to hang with since they were starting to get extreme, so I know it's not all-encompassing, I kinda just wanna know if anyone else can figure out the "Why" of it.
    I think part of it is a defence mechanism, like Shamash said. If you're bombarded with discrimination all the time, ranging from micro-aggressions to flat out hate, sometimes it's easier to just cut off everyone who isn't perfect because you just can't deal with anything more, and even small disagreements are just too much.
    The other part are different priorities - something that might seem not so important might be actually extremely important to someone else, and if you disagree with them on this issue, for them that might be fundamental enough that they don't want to engage with anyone who disagrees with them here. So it's less "you need to be 100% with us" and more you thinking you disagree on 5%, when for them the thing you are disagreeing on is important enough to be 80%. So for you it seems like they are writing you of because "you are only 95% with us" and for them it seems like they are writing you of because "you are 80% against us" (which isn't really irrational anymore). Does that make sense? It's kinda difficult to explain without examples, but I fear most examples would be too political for here.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Since it came up recently:

    What are the differences between "assigned female at birth", "coercively assigned female at birth" and "denied male at birth"?

    Do they describe a different process, are they "updated" expressions, are they used to express how the speaker feels about it?


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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iruka View Post
    Since it came up recently:

    What are the differences between "assigned female at birth", "coercively assigned female at birth" and "denied male at birth"?

    Do they describe a different process, are they "updated" expressions, are they used to express how the speaker feels about it?
    Coercively is used when you want to put special emphasis to the fact that no-one chooses their birth assignment and in the case of intersex and trans people the assignment is often used coercively. (Conversion therapy, "corrective surgery", denying transition care, etc...)
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Intersex sure, but how could the assignment, at birth, be coercive for a trans person? There's no way to determine whether or not a baby is trans. It could be used coercively later on in life, but the assignment itself can't have been coercive at the time it was done.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iruka View Post
    Since it came up recently:

    What are the differences between "assigned female at birth", "coercively assigned female at birth" and "denied male at birth"?

    Do they describe a different process, are they "updated" expressions, are they used to express how the speaker feels about it?
    The first is technically correct when used to refer to cis women. The second indicates the assignment was not done correctly (and conveys negative feelings about the result) but doesn't indicate what the correct assignment should have been (the speaker could identify as non-binary, after all). The third conveys negative feelings about the result and indicates what the result should have been.

    Lacking other context, I would read someone who uses the third phrase as angry. I would also take it as a strong cue that the speaker identifies as male. If that assumption holds, it has the benefit of telling you what the speaker is (male) instead of what the speaker is not (female).

    @Chen
    I agree "coercively" doesn't technically make sense when talking about a baby, but I think it does convey a "society tried to get me to be X but I'm not" feeling.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iruka View Post
    Since it came up recently:

    What are the differences between "assigned female at birth", "coercively assigned female at birth" and "denied male at birth"?

    Do they describe a different process, are they "updated" expressions, are they used to express how the speaker feels about it?
    I think "assigned gender at birth" is for CIs people, for example I was assigned male at birth, and I'm ok with it.

    Coercively assigned female at birth is for trans people who are coercively assigned a gender that they don't identify with.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    I've never heard "denied X at birth." Wasn't DXAB "designated X at birth?"
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Idk, to me adding adjectives like 'coerced' or language like 'denied' seems stronger, but they otherwise mean the same I think. So, I agree that they sound a bit angrier and/or more passionate but without other tone or context it'd be hard to say. I've mostly seen the ones in the OP of this thread (AMAB/AFAB & FAAB/MAAB).

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    I've never heard "denied X at birth." Wasn't DXAB "designated X at birth?"
    I thought so too, tbh.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamash View Post
    I think "assigned gender at birth" is for CIs people, for example I was assigned male at birth, and I'm ok with it.

    Coercively assigned female at birth is for trans people who are coercively assigned a gender that they don't identify with.
    First off, it's just "cis people," not "CIs people" or "CIS people." It's a prefix or standalone word, not an acronym.

    Trans people definitely make use of AFAB, AMAB, FAAB, MAAB, etc., so no, those terms are not "for cis people" or "not for trans people" or anything like that.

    Generally speaking, a cis person calling themselves AMAB or FAAB would be redundant, especially if the fact that they're cisgender is known.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    What is the proper etiquette for when you need a, for want of a better term, "long-term name" for a person who is genderfluid and has asked that you refer to them by different names and pronouns based on a specific physical cue?

    My specific situation is that I had a musician who signed up for the equivalent of an open mic spot at a convention a while back, and they did an awesome job and I'd like to add them to our list of performers to invite in the future. Our database is organized by name, and I'm not sure how to handle a situation where the name is fluid like this. Thoughts? (We don't track gender or pronouns in our database, so it's just the name issue I'm not sure how to handle gracefully.)

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    Intersex sure, but how could the assignment, at birth, be coercive for a trans person? There's no way to determine whether or not a baby is trans. It could be used coercively later on in life, but the assignment itself can't have been coercive at the time it was done.
    Well, you can't know a baby's gender at birth, so any assignment is technically coercive, but for cis people it's generally not a problem while for trans people it is.

    (For intersex people, there's another term - "forcibly assigned X (usually female) at birth" - used by intersex people who've undergone genital mutilation.)

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    I've never heard "denied X at birth." Wasn't DXAB "designated X at birth?"
    Yeah, I've never seen "denied X at birth" either, while "designated" is commonly used.


    Quote Originally Posted by Algeh View Post
    What is the proper etiquette for when you need a, for want of a better term, "long-term name" for a person who is genderfluid and has asked that you refer to them by different names and pronouns based on a specific physical cue?

    My specific situation is that I had a musician who signed up for the equivalent of an open mic spot at a convention a while back, and they did an awesome job and I'd like to add them to our list of performers to invite in the future. Our database is organized by name, and I'm not sure how to handle a situation where the name is fluid like this. Thoughts? (We don't track gender or pronouns in our database, so it's just the name issue I'm not sure how to handle gracefully.)
    I think this is something you need to ask the musician themselves. Maybe you can put both names in the database - like a compound name, or first name + middle name, or separated by a / ? But I'd definitely ask them what they prefer.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    First off, it's just "cis people," not "CIs people" or "CIS people." It's a prefix or standalone word, not an acronym.
    I'm eighty-seven percent sure that was just them holding down the shift key for longer than intended. THat happens sometimes. Okay fine that time it was deliberate. Don't judge me.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lycunadari View Post
    Well, you can't know a baby's gender at birth, so any assignment is technically coercive, but for cis people it's generally not a problem while for trans people it is.
    Realistically its a designated sex at birth. The gender is generally assumed to be the same unless indicated otherwise. There's no way to know ANYONE's gender unless they tell you anyways. Assigning sex at birth I'd say is necessary, the assumption of gender that goes with it is not. Adding coercive to the description though seems needlessly confrontational and confusing.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    I've never heard "denied X at birth." Wasn't DXAB "designated X at birth?"
    Saw it in an interview here. The only occasion I saw it, but since I hadn't known CAFAB/CAMAB either I thought I'd ask.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    Realistically its a designated sex at birth. The gender is generally assumed to be the same unless indicated otherwise. There's no way to know ANYONE's gender unless they tell you anyways. Assigning sex at birth I'd say is necessary, the assumption of gender that goes with it is not. Adding coercive to the description though seems needlessly confrontational and confusing.
    I guess in theory you could just check yes/no boxes for vagina, penis, ovaries etc, maybe have a look at the chromosome setup, and leave it at that? Do you need information about a persons sex beyond medical issues?
    Last edited by Iruka; 2017-06-15 at 11:20 AM.


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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iruka View Post
    Saw it in an interview here. The only occasion I saw it, but since I hadn't known CAFAB/CAMAB either I thought I'd ask.
    That seems like it would just cause unnecessary confusion because it seems to have the opposite meaning from the usual DXAB acronyms...
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    Realistically its a designated sex at birth. The gender is generally assumed to be the same unless indicated otherwise. There's no way to know ANYONE's gender unless they tell you anyways. Assigning sex at birth I'd say is necessary, the assumption of gender that goes with it is not. Adding coercive to the description though seems needlessly confrontational and confusing.
    *shrug* It is coercion though. Claiming it's just about sex (I personally don't agree with a straight separation between sex and gender anyway, they're both way too muddy for that) is a bit incorrect I feel because to society at large they are used interchangedly. And like, it is a box you're pushed in, just look at how many cis people even get harassed, discrimated against and hurt because they reject the exact box or deviate from expectations or whatever. Being assigned male comes with a whole load of baggage that gets heaped onto you. (Just look at how differently even babies get treated based on whether people are told they're a boy or a girl) Like the assignment has big life impacts that get pushed onto you. It's meant to draw attention to that; not to be all "doctors are all evil masterminds".
    Last edited by Astrella; 2017-06-16 at 04:25 AM.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astrella View Post
    *shrug* It is coercion though. Claiming it's just about sex (I personally don't agree with a straight separation between sex and gender anyway, they're both way too muddy for that) is a bit incorrect I feel because to society at large they are used interchangedly. And like, it is a box you're pushed in, just look at how many cis people even get harassed, discrimated against and hurt because they reject the exact box or deviate from expectations or whatever. Being assigned male comes with a whole load of baggage that gets heaped onto you. (Just look at how differently even babies get treated based on whether people are told they're a boy or a girl) Like the assignment has big life impacts that get pushed onto you. It's meant to draw attention to that; not to be all "doctors are all evil masterminds".
    I'll grant you it draws attention to those facts but as I said it does so in a somewhat confrontational way AND it's not even getting at the root cause. Sex is really a proxy for the various bits and pieces that are biologically different between people of opposite sex. This has medical validity and frankly is the only place it makes sense to distinguish. Sure you could instead list all those bits and pieces, but it is shorthand that works in the vast majority of cases. The problems you mention about society and their perception of gender roles is much more of a problem than the actual "assignment" at birth.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I'm eighty-seven percent sure that was just them holding down the shift key for longer than intended. THat happens sometimes. Okay fine that time it was deliberate. Don't judge me.
    Indeed it does. I'm just also paranoid about that becoming an actual thing because it's just so ugly and bad typographical language convention thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    Adding coercive to the description though seems needlessly confrontational and confusing.
    It's definitely a loaded term and intended to express negative emotions and connotations, but I'm not following what's confusing about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iruka View Post
    I guess in theory you could just check yes/no boxes for vagina, penis, ovaries etc, maybe have a look at the chromosome setup, and leave it at that? Do you need information about a persons sex beyond medical issues?
    Until we can actually glean any information from looking at a newborn's chromosomes to determine their gender, all that would yield would be additional cost added to the already way too costly act of giving birth and be an additional unnecessary test.

    Yes, doctors would find this information to be useful to know instead of being forbidden by some kind of statute, because it's medically relevant at times other than when someone is actively having a health problem and also when there's a health problem irrelevant to their physical sex but the prescription options do affect men and women differently.

    As I recall, there may even be some cases where what would be considered delayed development for one sex of infant or child isn't a cause of concern in the other.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2017-06-16 at 03:06 PM.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astrella View Post
    It is coercion though.
    No, it is not. No-one forced the baby to do something by using force or threats. Watering down the meaning of a word such as coercion - so central to other problems such as when a sexual act might be rape - does no-one any favours.

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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, it is not. No-one forced the baby to do something by using force or threats. Watering down the meaning of a word such as coercion - so central to other problems such as when a sexual act might be rape - does no-one any favours.

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    Society in general does coerce children to act within their assigned gender roles, though. Which frequently involves threats, implicit or explicit.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    Society in general does coerce children to act within their assigned gender roles, though. Which frequently involves threats, implicit or explicit.
    Agreed, but the process of selecting a sex when filling out the birth certificate is not one such occasion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    I must admit, this is one of the few places and times that I've seen anyone place the emphasis on coercion on the parents doing the raising of the child and the culture they're in, rather than the doctor or midwife who delivered the baby.

    Granted, I haven't often been around a discussion that went in depth on it or that focused on any terms other than assigned or designated.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2017-06-16 at 05:27 PM.
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    Default Re: LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread IV 2b or not 2b?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, it is not. No-one forced the baby to do something by using force or threats. Watering down the meaning of a word such as coercion - so central to other problems such as when a sexual act might be rape - does no-one any favours.

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    You know what, sod off by implying stuff like that. And considering that like, intersex babies often still have unnecessary corrective surgery applied to them cause people can't cope with stuff not fitting their perfect binary means coercion definitely has a place in this dialogue. (it's even putting it mild.)

    And please, if there was no coercion involved in being assigned a sex / gender than people would have no issue with people transitioning.
    Last edited by Astrella; 2017-06-17 at 02:17 PM.
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