Villainous Competition XX​I: Yarr!

[GrayDeath]

I'm actually so impatient for judging that I've been reading through all the old judgments from previous competitions.

I probably should find something more productive to do.

Do not worry, I am on it right now.

Should be done within a few hours at the latest, hopefully earlier. :)

[Tiri]

:)Smiley face indeed.

[GrayDeath]

Here we go. Wasn`t as complicated as some other times, but did take more time than expected. :)

Spoiler: Ulgaal, the Planar Corsair

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Spoiler: Originality 3.75

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An Atropal Scion. Well, did NOT expect this in a Pirate Contest, at all.
I did expect Undead shenanigans, as they are a staple of the Pirate Theme, but the way you do (most of) it is unlike the regular clichees.

Overall not a bad start, I`ll give you 3,75

Spoiler: Elegance 4.5

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Pure and simple Udnead progression, a bit of cheese for the massive amounts of Rebuke, but that fits the core concept. No Dips, no Illegalities I could find.
Very good 4.5 here

Spoiler: Power 4.00

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Now this one was harder. Yes, he is INSANELY good at what he does. But all he has are undead, including himself. Against well prepared/specialized enemies he willsuck, and big. I like your various suggested Rides, but they are only possible ways he can circumvent some smaller weakness than being undead.
Still, a lot of Whoopass, quite some different ways to use it. Gives good 4.00

Spoiler: Memorability 3.75

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This one`s easy. The Atropal-Pirate, Leader of a Horde uf different Udnead, riding an Elsewhale. Yep, meomarable alright, even if his fluff is lacking in depth (arrr, Pirate humor^^), it’s a good 3.75.

This gives you a Total of 16.00 pts.

Spoiler: Daggadol

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Spoiler: Originality 4.25

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A Kraken was expected,a s a ride. You made the pirtate one, kudos for that!
Swordsage is staple if you want an adaptable martial, but the way you combine it with Hulking Hurler and your … ammunition? Pure comedy Gold (and horrifying to the targets of course), like it.
4.25

Spoiler: Elegance 4.5

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Simple and concise your Kraken is. The addition of Monster HD+Swordsage are close to perfect, even the Dip, as it is necessary, does not cost you much here. 4.5.

Spoiler: Power 3.5

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And here we hit the snag.
Yes, if anyone is stupid enough to face her in the sea, at not too long ranges, they`re dead. But she has no way of flying, or really augmenting her only passable saves/AC, or anything else much pointing towards flexibility.
The first time one meets her she`ll be devastating. Next time, close to trivial. But yes, good at what she is supposed to do. 3.5

Spoiler: Memorability 3.00

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Now the lack of clear, big motivation hurts you here,a s while a Kraken chucking maneuvres and throwing stuff at you are memorable, they don’t go much above “really cool monster of the week”. Cant give you more than a 3.00 here.

This leaves you at a total of 15.25

Spoiler: Kyra the Taker

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Spoiler: Originality 1.5

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Well, not too much unexpected here, with the exception of the Zhentarim Substitution Levels, but more about these below.
Unusual but not totally unexpected class, mechanics focused on intimidation, all staples. Even the ubiquitous Dip is there.

Spoiler: Elegance 2.75

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Now sadly, your build takes another hit here. Aside from the most expected dip around for the comps theme, you also are not a Zhentarim, so how do you get the Substitution levels?
While nothing here is truly illegal, losing that feature loses you a few power points as well (see below).
Overall not atrocious though, just not really elegant either.
2.75

Spoiler: Power 3.75

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Now we`re talking (assuming everything worked the way you said, which Zhentarim does not, but that can be circumvented with some effert I am sure).
She rocks as intimidating leader of her Crew, no question there. She is also a quite competend melee fighter, but has the usual weaknesses for that concept.
Overall a build that does what it is supposed to do well enough. 3.75

Spoiler: Memorability 2.25

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Now that one is hard. On one side there is close to nil fluff here, on the other characters like this, with fluff, tend to be amongst the least forgotten. I can however only jugde what is there, so sadly its only a 2.25

That gives you a Total of 10.25

Spoiler: The Wave Man

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Spoiler: Originality 3.75

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Now that progression I did not see coming (the Corsair levels, sure, but the rest?). Very different take on the Pirate concept, and I like the fluff a lot.
No really weird/strange combinations, but better than average to be sure.

Spoiler: Elegance 3.75

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On one hand there are a lot of dips/Class switching, on the other hand they all fit the concept/evolution well enough that I will not penelaize them overmuch. Still, true elegance is something else, so take another 3.75

Spoiler: Power 3.75

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That was not easy. A lot of options, high mobility, nice additional effects, but not really that much damage, AC or movement options outside the box. You know what, why change a running score. Take 3.75.

Spoiler: Memorability 3

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This concept thrives on people knowing him from “before”. If they do, it rocks (especially if meeting him and seeing his fall on different steps on his path). If not, he`s just another “Martial Pirate Type with Maneuvres”.
Tough one. I was going to give you the same score again, to keep the fun pattern, but I simply cannot go above a 3 with him here.

This still brings you to a total of 14.25

Spoiler: The Sea Dirge

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Spoiler: Originality 4.75

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The whu? I mean what now? This is really unexpected, which given legends of eternal Ships and such it should not hav ..e been, still, blew me away. Take excellent 4.75 pts!

Spoiler: Elegance 2.5

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And here you take the biggest hit. Animated Objects do not have an intelligence score. Too bad, otherwise the Type+single Class+Prestige Class progression would have netted you impressive 4.75-5.00pts. This way however, there is a basic flaw in the concept.
That might be circumvented with Awakening construct shenanigans or another path that I cannot think of at the moment, but the way it is, it does not work.
Still, assuming you can get an Int score, the concept is cool and elegant, so I wont go lower than 2.5 here.

Spoiler: Power 3.5

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Good but not great, that’s the best summary here. Your ship can do a lot of things (remarkable seeing its, well, a SHIP^^), but nothing really well. Not enough spells to let them carry you, not enough combat prowess either, but all the things combined make it a flexible and unexpected opponent. Take 3.5

Spoiler: Memorability 4.25

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Well, if the players find out whats what, top Score. If they don’t, still not bad, so take a total of 4.25 (bonus for the nice fluff)


That gives you a total of 15.00 pts

Spoiler: The Albatross

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Spoiler: Originality 2.75

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Hmmm, Clichee Orc Deeds and Classes, except Chaotician, andvery funny yet again clichee backstory leaves not too much … except none of the classes were expected staple for the Competition. A middling 2.75 it is.

Spoiler: Elegance 4.25

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Some funny combination, but no real problems worth mentioning, all legal, no cheese (except some chaotic cheddar^^). 4.25pts it is.

Spoiler: Power 4.25

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Ah, clear focus on melee wnd debuffing. And he does it well (and funny), with no unusual weaknesses (even if seeing without eyes is weird…its RAW). Quite some smashing potential too.

4.25

Spoiler: Memorability 4.00

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Are you kidding me? If he lives long enough that players find out anything more than “raging Orc” there is little chance any GM will live down using him soon. ;)
4.00

That gives you a total of 15.25

Spoiler: Ebbeth Unyak

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Spoiler: Originality 4.00

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Ah, finally, a singing pirate (that’s not a ship)! Gotta love them, even if the progression is very unusual for a Bard (which is good for you here^^), fits very well thematically.
4.00

Spoiler: Elegance 5.00

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Simple, concise, no Dips, no Illegalities, take full points!

5.00

Spoiler: Power 4.00

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Well, here you suffer for not going sublime Chord, her most powerful spells are only 7th Level and she is (aside from shapechanging) not too much of a fighter. Still, excellent versatility and 7th Level casting as well as fitting here niches are worth 4 points.

Spoiler: Memorability 3.5

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HMmm Storm Theme, Druid, Pirate. Combination of clichees but memorable ones.
Still thought long about this one, before arriving at a solid 3.5.

This gives you a Total of 16.5.

Spoiler: The Bookthief

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Spoiler: Originality 3.75

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Very interesting concept fluffwise, not too unusual mechanically, though you rarely see fatespinner in my humble experience. The whole intellectual property thief angle is cool (and scary). I give you a very solid 3.75

Spoiler: Elegance 4.25

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Nothing illegal, no cheese, no dips, but quite a few classes (if in logical progression), that leaves you at very good 4.25pts

Spoiler: Power 4.25

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Phew, I don’t know too mucha bout psionics, so this was a tough one. After reading a few threads and checking your spells piece by piece, I came to the realization that its just a regular theurge build powerwise, if a wee bit less flexible/more focused. He does wehat hes supposed to de very well, and then some other stuff, though not Top Level Caster Power.. Take 4.25.

Spoiler: Memorability 3.25

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None, if he does it right the palyers don’t even know he is there. :P


Just kidding, if the players find out what he is doing, high, otherwise truly nil. Lets say 3.25, hm?

Thet total comes up to 15.5

Spoiler: Tommy Rawhead

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Spoiler: Originality 2.75

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Beguiler, Unseen Seer, nothing new there, except the Redcap part. Not a very interesting build mechanically, but the fluff is really good. Overall I`d say a 2.75 seems fair.

Spoiler: Elegance 5.00

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Monster+Class+Prestige Class, no Dips, no Cheese. This gives you full points here!

Spoiler: Power 4.25

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The Beguiler List gives you lots of Power, if mostly mindaffecting, and advanced Learning and the boons of Unseen seer make you more diverse. Good attributes and DR to boot.
If you had more than Crap BAB you`d be really dangerous just about everywhere. Even so, take 4.25 points.

Spoiler: Memorability 3.75

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Cool Class/Race Combo, nice fluff, high shock value. Quite memorable on most tables methinks. 3.75

The Total is: 15.75

Spoiler: Colsonaes

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Spoiler: Originality 2.25

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Ugh, Ilithid-Elves. Snobby beauties with Tentacleheads. I did not need that picture. Aside from the Race, the 2 Classes are about as uninspired as possible (Druids always work well, Wavekeeper in a Pirate Comp is a given, or not given only you took it? ^^).
2.25 it is.

Spoiler: Elegance 5.00

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But that turns around here. Race, Class; Prestige Class, no Cheese, no Dips. Full points. (Even if I wanted to give it Elegance points based on its looks, ergo -4.00^^)
5.00

Spoiler: Power 4.5

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A Druid with a Water Focus is still a Druid. A lot of really useful casting, Forms and Buffs, and its Illithidish mods. Powerful and quite versatile. 4.5

Spoiler: Memorability 3.25

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It looses a bit here due to not being piraty enough for my tastes, but the sheer ugly feelings it will evoke due to its combined races and Druid Capailities will keep it “there”. 3.25

This gives you a Total of 15.5

Spoiler: Cilawar

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Spoiler: Originality 2.5

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A semiclassic Vampire progression. With the Corruption being a not too cheesy addition. Didn`t expect it precisely for this challenge, but Vampires are never unexpected (even if they`re in the Inquisition^^). Fun Combination though.
2.5

Spoiler: Elegance 4.00

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As far as I can see all is legal, and simple enough. I am not completely sure about some of the progression (aside from going from19 hd to 10 on level 19 which is likely a Typo there is the corruption transition that I`m not too sure about). Overall though nothing big. 4.00

Spoiler: Power 4.25

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He`s a high HD Vampire with added Corruption stuff. Hes powerful alright, and as a Vampire usually quite versatile.
4.25

Spoiler: Memorability 2.25

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Even though the backstory, while clicheed, is quite good, he is a random Vampire. It might be just me, but usually our tables tend to remember them as “vampire of the month”, so even with a cooler combination than normal it wont be more than a 2.25 here.

This gives you a total of 13.00

[The Viscount]

Many thanks, GrayDeath!

[Tiri]

Thank you for the judging, GrayDeath! Certainly an interesting read.

[GrayDeath]

You`re welcome.

11 Entries is a lot to sift through, luckily I had the time today. ;)

[Buufreak]

You`re welcome.

11 Entries is a lot to sift through, luckily I had the time today. ;)

*counts again* well, sumnagun, I could have sworn it was 12.

[Tiri]

*counts again* well, sumnagun, I could have sworn it was 12.

It's like that entry a few rounds ago that had 11 feats but all the judges thought had 12.

[Inevitability]

How about a curse-based round? There's tons of effects that fit the theme, which are distributed over all kinds of material.

Besides, cursing the hero is kind of a villain thing to do.

[Thurbane]

Disputes part three:

I have a number of problems with your judging, GrayDeath, but I just want to address one in this first dispute.

You appear to have heavily penalised Cilawar in both Originality and Memorability just for being a vampire. Apparently, vampires are never unexpected. Well, what about the rest of his build? I don't see you even talking about it.

You don't seem to have taken the flavour text into account at all, unlike the other builds. He is just a random vampire? Well, you could say that the other entries are all random pirates, did you penalise them for that?

Being a vampire is not the be-all and end-all of any character, unlike what you seem to think. If you took the time to look at my entry a little more closely, I think you would see that there is more to this villain than the fact that he is a vampire.

I'm sorry if this dispute seems a bit forceful, but I really think you are allowing your personal anti-vampire prejudices to run away with you on this one.

@Greydeath

I'll freaking take it. I was hoping a bit more on originality, as druidism is about the opposite of anything illithid related, but 15.5 isn't the worst score I've seen before, so I'm good with it.

---

How about a curse-based round? There's tons of effects that fit the theme, which are distributed over all kinds of material.

Besides, cursing the hero is kind of a villain thing to do.

That was somewhat covered in the Wicked Witch round, but might be worth re-visiting.

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I had an idea. What about a round where we are basing villain off forum members. A bit like the ones where they be items or vestige but in this competition

Given the current climate in these threads, no, not while I'm chairing.

It would be far too open for people to use as an excuse to insult or ridicule each other.

I know the majority of regulars in these threads would be mature and considerate enough to handle it well, but one or two trolls could not be trusted.

[Tiri]

not while I'm judging.

Don't you mean 'chairing'?

[Thurbane]

Don't you mean 'chairing'?

Yes, I meant chairing.

[Deadline]

Thanks for the judging GrayDeath!

I'm pretty excited that we are likely to see at least two judges on this one. Gellhorn mentioned they might judge as well.

So, Gellhorn and Yklikt, how goes the judging?

[GrayDeath]

It's like that entry a few rounds ago that had 11 feats but all the judges thought had 12.

Funnily enough, that was mine ^^


@ Dispute: I did factor its nice Entry/Intro into it.
Its well written and cool, but its only that: an entry. Had you put in as much effort into the flavour of what he actually DOES (or given explanations on how he acts different than the usual udnead monstrosity), and to whom/how, you would be right.

But this way? Yes, hes got a sympathetic start, but thats where it ends as well....

No change.

[Thurbane]

Disputes part four:

Okay then, GrayDeath. Apart from the vampire stuff, let's get into the problems I have with your judging.

Firstly, I feel like there is a lot more original in this build than you give it credit for. For one, in the first ten CRs, despite the monstrous vampire and corrupted templates, which usually apply to characters that advance by class, Cilawar advances by HD only. Then there's the clever interaction between two two types of fast healing. I also feel like the Dungeon Lord class should be fairly unexpected in a ship environment, and while vampire is always expected, take note that Cilawar actually possesses the Monstrous Vampire template, which allows the application after the Corrupted Creature template, which I thought was a pretty clever workaround. I don't think I can recall NPC special abilities ever being used in this competition before, either.

Next, Elegance. You yourself state that it is all legal and simple, so what is that point being taken off for, the typographical error? I find that totally absurd. You can clearly tell what is supposed to be there.

You haven't really given me a lot of information of how you actually judged Power, so I can't really argue one way or the other.

How does Cilawar act different from the typical undead monstrosity? Well, I tried to inject some humanity into his character. Notice that, despite everything, he does bury his fallen friends. In the Usage section, I mention that he is looking for actual companionship and new experiences. How common is that in undead? I don't see the same kind of fleshed-out personality in Ulgaal, for example. He even lets non-dominated, non-undead volunteers join his crews. I also tried to add an extra dimension to him by showing how his long boredom on the island makes him grow tired of things quickly.

You also say that the story is good, but then dismiss it as cliche. That's not very consistent, and if it is cliche, why?

I just have to point out that a lot of your judgement either hasn't taken the more subtle elements of this build into consideration, or simply fails to fully justify why it gives a certain score. Things like that point taken off Elegance or why you seem to be ignoring most of the parts of Cilawar that are not his vampirism. It's hard to tell what you are thinking and therefore hard to dispute.

[GrayDeath]

First, please try to not take my judging as an attack, you seem to take a lot of it personal.

I reread all your info after the above argument, and will answer the central parts:

I posted why I judge how I judge in the last competition. Read it and you'll understand it, I do not intend to post them every single competition.

But to sum it up: your build is legal and cheese less, but has more classes and templates than necessary, and ever usage is not elegant, rather the opposite. hence a good but not perfect score. Compare to builds that I gave full pts.
No change here.

I agree however that I did not give dungeon lord enough credit. Add another 0,5 pts to originality.

The intro story, again, is good.
The whole villain is clichéd.
One does not in any way even remotely preclude the other. No changes here.

[Buufreak]

Any voting for honorbale mention. I would vote for sea dirge but it looks like will win anyway

Why not finish judging before worrying about such things?

[Tiri]

Build	Yklikt's Scoring	Graydeath's Scoring	Average Score	Current Position
Ulgaal, the Planar Corsair	15.00	16.00	15.50	4th/5th/6th
Daggadol	16.00	15.25	15.625	3rd
Kyra the Taker	09.00	10.25	09.625	11th
Tadashi Shirahama, "The Wave Man"	13.00	14.25	13.625	9th
The Sea Dirge	15.00	15.00	15.00	8th
Thrashk Deadeyes, the Albatross	-	15.25	15.25	7th
Ebbeth Unyak	17.00	16.50	16.75	1st
The Bookthief	-	15.50	15.50	4th/5th/6th
Old Tommy Rawhead	-	15.75	15.75	2nd
Colsonaes, the Hunted Daughter, Bane of the Tel'Quessir	-	15.50	15.50	4th/5th/6th
Cilawar	-	13.00	13.00	10th

Here, a table.

[Thurbane]

Disputes part five:

Don't worry, I'm not taking this personally.

Okay. I looked at your judging criteria.

For Originality, well, were you expecting Asabi in this competition? I should have thought that fits your unexpected race criteria, even if he is also a vampire. I also think that you really should take a look at some things that are not classes this time, as I do feel that most of the innovative things I did with this build were done with templates and feats, rather than classes.

Concerning Elegance, many of the other builds in this competition have more classes than I did, and you gave them a higher score. I don't know why you feel that templates are inelegant, as I would think their flavour fits well together, and they do synergise, as I describe. What is

ever usage

? That doesn't even make sense. Also if there's something you don't understand about the Corruption transition, instead of penalising it without stating what you don't understand, tell me why you don't understand so I can help you to.

Also, I gave you a list of the reasons Cilawar does what he does that I feel are different from the typical undead monster, or pirate for that matter. Yet you continue to call him cliche. If you're going to say that, at least tell me the actual reasons for you thinking he is so. Then I know what to dispute or not to dispute.

[GrayDeath]

It was.supposed.to be "clever" usage, I.blame autocorrect.

He is clicheed because he is an nice guy.turned vampire and most.of his.progression, not all but most, is quite often used for vampire npcs. The part that is not I gave you a. 5 point increase.
He is also missing some really concise fluff on what he does.why.later on, in the original post.
Your.explanation in Disputes.has no.bearing on the.original judging.

And I am penalising elegance because parts of.his.progression are needlessly complicated/require very specific timing (see corruption), which is not perfectly, but see the score.still quite, egant.

I think I have explained my judging well enough now, I will not answer to.further Disputes of the same points, though of course new ones will be accepted and reviewed.

[arclance]

It was.supposed.to be "clever" usage, I.blame autocorrect.

He is clicheed because he is an nice guy.turned vampire and most.of his.progression, not all but most, is quite often used for vampire npcs. The part that is not I gave you a. 5 point increase.
He is also missing some really concise fluff on what he does.why.later on, in the original post.
Your.explanation in Disputes.has no.bearing on the.original judging.

And I am penalising elegance because parts of.his.progression are needlessly complicated/require very specific timing (see corruption), which is not perfectly, but see the score.still quite, egant.

I think I have explained my judging well enough now, I will not answer to.further Disputes of the same points, though of course new ones will be accepted and reviewed.

I feel like there is some irony in this jousting over elegance when you have surrendered to this phone induced crime against punctuation.

[Tiri]

I feel like there is some irony in this jousting over elegance when you have surrendered to this phone induced crime against punctuation.

The Internet certainly provides no shortage of irony.

[Thurbane]

Disputes part six:

I'd like to point out that Cilawar is not a nice guy turned vampire. Just a guy. I don't think I portrayed him as particularly nice, and furthermore, his evil isn't a result of his vampirism, but because he spent too long trapped on an island with nothing to do. I even explained how his actions are a result of his isolation and boredom. In fact, his being a vampire is just a device for his being trapped and long existence, I'm not using it as an reason for his being evil, which I agree would be more cliche.

Also, I added no new information in the dispute, I only showed you what I'd already put in the 'In General' subsection of the 'Usage' section. I really think you must have missed it somehow, because nothing new was added in my dispute.

What is so needlessly complicated about his progression? He has two templates and some Hit Dice, advanced normally. The Corrupted template does require some timing, but that is already part of his backstory. It's not like it's supposed to happen in play or anything, since he only really becomes a villain at CR 10. Most villain backstories have similarly unusual events in them. I'm not saying you have to give me a perfect score, but there are other builds getting higher points that have more templates or classes and dips in total than Cilawar does.

Dispute for both judges:

I didn't choose to post the specific mechanics of the spell which created The Sea Dirge because I thought that things not on my characters sheet weren't supposed to go in the contest. I made very certain that there was a clear RAW and RAI way for my entry to work, per the 2nd and third paragraphs here:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Life_(Epic_Spell_Seed)

Given that the entry clearly works, RAW and RAI, I feel like penalizing it for this issue is like penalizing someone for not including the divine mechanics necessary for the creation of their race.

[GrayDeath]

The irony of phone-caused punctuation issues is also not lost on me.
But it's harder to fight than many other things.

@elegance: regarding me the dispute is over, as I wrote above. You made your point, I agreed in one part and disagreed in the rest. That's how it is.


@ Sea Dirge: as I wrote in my judging, there are ways to give it intelligence. This does not change the fact that animated objects per se are not intelligent. Passive aggressive formulation nonwithstanding: your being is essentially self made, unlike any other race picked, and so yes, clearly stating how it was created and by who would have helped. Since there is no such thing in the original Entry, and I was aware of ways to give it intelligence but penalized the entry as it did not clearly state which one was used, I see no reason to change the points assigned.

[Thurbane]

Once again I would reiterate due to the issues we've had in this thread, bystanders are requested NOT to comment on the legality of entries until after the final reveal.

There is a chance subsequent judges after the first would have reached the same conclusion, but from the competitor's perspective, they have had their scores unfairly penalized by external interference.

This is a "for fun" competition. Heck, there's entries I've received in the past that I could see straight away had either broken a competition rule or had RAW legality issues; I clamped my mouth and left it up to the judges.

If anyone feels strongly enough that they simply must point out flaws in entries, please do one of the following:

1.) Wait until after the final reveal.

2.) Commit to judging and raise your issues there.

[Thurbane]

Disputes part seven (and honestly, I hesitated to post this given the judge's last reply, but I have to try and remain impartial):

GrayDeath, I actually made some new points in the new dispute that you didn't address at all. One concerning Elegance and others the alleged clichedness of my entry.

Look, I get that you're on a mobile device, this is difficult and you've already responded to a few of my disputes, but all the same, there are things you seem to be ignoring. Your latest response is simply a complete dismissal of my dispute and I can't help but get the impression that you are not actually reading what I write in detail.

...word of advice to competitors: there is such as thing as beating a dead horse, and arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Tiri]

So, is this round wrapping up after GrayDeath finishes with the disputes, or are we waiting for the other judges to finish their judging?

[Deadline]

So, is this round wrapping up after GrayDeath finishes with the disputes, or are we waiting for the other judges to finish their judging?

I would assume we are at least waiting for Yklikt to finish their judging.

[Tiri]

I would assume we are at least waiting for Yklikt to finish their judging.

Well, hopefully that does happen, but since it is taking rather long and we are already quite a bit past the deadline with a judge who has already finished a full set of scores...

[daremetoidareyo]

Well, hopefully that does happen, but since it is taking rather long and we are already quite a bit past the deadline with a judge who has already finished a full set of scores...

More judgments are better and worth the wait.