El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

[Rater202]

This is my little tinfoil hat about Magus: He was rendered bodiless because of the diamond--Ellen's creation somehow sucked his body/essence from whatever parallel/alternate dimension Magus came from. The odd means of him regaining a body is just him making the same thing happen in reverse.

He predates Ellen's birth by several years.

[Vinyadan]

Has anyone thought of the diamond as origin for Susan and Diane? Like how Nioi and the other one came to be? Although it would be veeery strange to magically change a detail in a child and then have it touch the diamond. Maybe someone cursed Diane with distrust (or Susan with joy of living) and then had her touch it when he realized what he had done?

[Rater202]

Has anyone thought of the diamond as origin for Susan and Diane? Like how Nioi and the other one came to be? Although it would be veeery strange to magically change a detail in a child and then have it touch the diamond. Maybe someone cursed Diane with distrust (or Susan with joy of living) and then had her touch it when he realized what he had done?

That was one of the first things anyone said ever about them--it even came up in Canon when Grace and Ellen first met Diane.

Problem 1: Diane and Susan being possibly related is a Retcon. Dan recently pointed out that he only did it after the fact becuase fans at the time of her frist apearance pointed out that she was similar looking to Susan and later decided "hey, there might be something to that."

2: In-Universe, that would have necessitated Abraham the Wizard showing up to kill one of them. As neither s dead, Abraham's statue was in England, not America, and Abraham had that whole crises of conscience about the letter of his vow over the spirit of his vow with Elle, it just.. it just doesn't fit.

3: It's more probably that the differences between Susan and Diane are the result of different upbringing than some magic curse.

[Forum Explorer]

And what's the problem with that? Seriously, what's the problem with EGS shifting into Urban fantasy?

1. He's already got a big problem with over explaining things. Take Magnus possessing Elliot. We're already being promised an explanation for it. We really don't need to know why this works the way it does.

2. His magic is too 'easy'. It's safe, clean, reliable, and easy to use and develop. It's all the difficulty of using Linux.


Basically I feel he's shifting more to Sci-Fi, then Urban Fantasy. Everything is safe and easy with no downsides. And it's boring. Sarah feeling jealous of everyone because she has no magic was interesting. Tedd coming up with new inventions with crazy new technology and the like was interesting. Grace being a weird alien-hybrid was interesting. Even the 'anime style' martial arts was interesting.

Now we've got Sarah learning magic. Tedd using magic. Grace is basically magic but inherent. And anime martial arts is just magic. So instead of a wide variety of stuff we've got the same thing again and again. And everyone has it and loads of it. Rhonda is super talented, Tedd is a 'Seer', Sarah has a super spell, Nanese is so talented extra dimensional griffons think she's royalty, Elliot has a super hero spell, Susan has the talent to hunt vampires, and Grace is Grace. And so on. It really feels stale at this point.

[Rater202]

1. He's already got a big problem with over explaining things. Take Magnus possessing Elliot. We're already being promised an explanation for it. We really don't need to know why this works the way it does.

2. His magic is too 'easy'. It's safe, clean, reliable, and easy to use and develop. It's all the difficulty of using Linux.


Basically I feel he's shifting more to Sci-Fi, then Urban Fantasy. Everything is safe and easy with no downsides. And it's boring. Sarah feeling jealous of everyone because she has no magic was interesting. Tedd coming up with new inventions with crazy new technology and the like was interesting. Grace being a weird alien-hybrid was interesting. Even the 'anime style' martial arts was interesting.

Now we've got Sarah learning magic. Tedd using magic. Grace is basically magic but inherent. And anime martial arts is just magic. So instead of a wide variety of stuff we've got the same thing again and again. And everyone has it and loads of it. Rhonda is super talented, Tedd is a 'Seer', Sarah has a super spell, Nanese is so talented extra dimensional griffons think she's royalty, Elliot has a super hero spell, Susan has the talent to hunt vampires, and Grace is Grace. And so on. It really feels stale at this point.

Yeah, but it was established years ago that this was all running on the same juice. Tedd's probably still gonna make and program devices that enchant people(practically speaking, he has to. where's he going to keep getting blank wands? WEsecially if he plays chicken with magic and wins, cuse then he might get in trouble with the FBI and they'd try to keep him from getting Wands for a bit), Elliot, Nanase, Ellen, Greg, and Justinare still gonna have Martial Arts themes in their magic to lesser or Greater Extent, and Grace is still gonna be a half-alien fireproof anti-regenerator Wereschool who absorbs transformation spells to gain their power. The fact that they all run on the same juice doens't change that, so I'm having problems seeing your complaint.

And the reason magic is "safe" is becuase the premise of the comic just doesn't work if it's too dangerous. You know, transformations for fun/gags/fanservice instead of transformations for horror.

If that's a problem, then even if Magic Changes(and it's not. Dan's not gonna throw out a decade and a half of exposition, that's not his thing, even ignoring all the other clues like going to the effort to do a thing for Ellen's spells that would be pointless if magic changed and she lost them,) it would probably still feel too safe to you.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah, I don't see EGS becoming unsafe any time soon.

I mean that'd be like Dresden Files becoming non-snarky.

Its just not happening.

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, but it was established years ago that this was all running on the same juice. Tedd's probably still gonna make and program devices that enchant people(practically speaking, he has to. where's he going to keep getting blank wands? WEsecially if he plays chicken with magic and wins, cuse then he might get in trouble with the FBI and they'd try to keep him from getting Wands for a bit), Elliot, Nanase, Ellen, Greg, and Justinare still gonna have Martial Arts themes in their magic to lesser or Greater Extent, and Grace is still gonna be a half-alien fireproof anti-regenerator Wereschool who absorbs transformation spells to gain their power. The fact that they all run on the same juice doens't change that, so I'm having problems seeing your complaint.

And the reason magic is "safe" is becuase the premise of the comic just doesn't work if it's too dangerous. You know, transformations for fun/gags/fanservice instead of transformations for horror.

If that's a problem, then even if Magic Changes(and it's not. Dan's not gonna throw out a decade and a half of exposition, that's not his thing, even ignoring all the other clues like going to the effort to do a thing for Ellen's spells that would be pointless if magic changed and she lost them,) it would probably still feel too safe to you.

It's not just the same juice, it's the same mechanics behind it. Cast more magic, gain more powers. Casting spells is easy, and the powers you get are always good for you. So there is no real specialization. Or effort.

Yeah, probably. Dan does a good slice of life story, but his habit of being a such a fan of his own characters really undercuts whatever tension he tries to build when he moves away from slice of life stuff. Like the current arc. I'm much more invested in the EGS: NP right now, because it actually has more tension in it and is thus more interesting.

[Qwertystop]

It's not just the same juice, it's the same mechanics behind it. Cast more magic, gain more powers. Casting spells is easy, and the powers you get are always good for you. So there is no real specialization. Or effort.

Yeah, probably. Dan does a good slice of life story, but his habit of being a such a fan of his own characters really undercuts whatever tension he tries to build when he moves away from slice of life stuff. Like the current arc. I'm much more invested in the EGS: NP right now, because it actually has more tension in it and is thus more interesting.

There is specialization, though. Everyone gets different spells, and spells tend towards some theme fitting the person even if they're not as limited as Elliot and Ellen are. And Tedd didn't stop being a techie-scientist just because he has backing for his intuition now.

[Lamech]

I'm not sure where we're getting EGS magic is "safe" from. Okay, yes it IS very safe for its user. That's where the safety ends. Honestly, the magic system is perfect for horror. For example, take Good Tom and Not-Tengu:
Good Tom is a good person, so he gets a good spell that let's him detect Puppies in Danger.
Not-Tengu was a wanna be sexual predator, and he got a magic roofie spell.
That's horrifying.

EGS is safe because of its genre. That's why when we see an abomination eat someone the snack was a terrible criminal planning on going on a murder spree.

[alwaysbebatman]

The title of this thread has become... far less apt...

[Vinyadan]

It is interesting that personal safety has been brought up, because it was an old theme of discussion in the EGS fanbase, although it had more to do with the general outlook, than with magic: could the main characters be in danger?

Once again, I think that different perceptions of personal safety depended on how the early comic was.

The earliest part had some serious physical violence. Not "extreme", but it was there: like "sudden spikes". I am thinking of Elliot sending Tedd unconscious by punching him, Hedge sending Elliot unconscious by hitting him with a chain, Vlad sending Grace unconscious by punching her, and later destroying the fairy (also, security dude sending Elliot and Tedd unconscious by hitting them with a torch).

There also was a crescendo, from the first fight against the goo, to the second fight against the goo, where we see main characters physically incapacitated and in need of others to be saved from certain death, and finally to the whole Damien facility thing. Creating a sense of danger by separating the "combat capable" from the, uhm, incapables. Elliot started out having been KOed. Nanase was overpowered and, for a while, it wasn't clear if she was alive or not.

Later, the general tone shifted, and, even on the old forums, it felt quite certain that the main characters were essentially safe from any serious or permanent damage. We've had a few fights since then, mainly Elliot vs Mongrel, Beardmage vs Adrian + Nanase, Tengu, and the whole thing with fire people, a dragon and poor Dex (the guy with a beard and shorts). There also was the Griffin deal.

Elliot-Mongrel: unscathed.

The Beardmage fight: Adrian is heavily wounded, but he is a secondary character. Nanase temporarily loses access to magic, but we know that she isn't in danger when she is cut by the axe, because there is a precedent in Painted Black.

Tengu: Only secondary characters are temporarily inconvenienced. Main characters are unscathed.

Dragon etc.: I admit that I have very fuzzy memories, and I think Elliot might have been down for a while?

Anyway, I guess that what's happening now is something of a back to origins thing.

As for magic not being dangerous, well, yes, I guess that dangerous magic might have been more interesting than magic forcing Elliot into turning into a woman until he had to like it. ...Wait, isn't that already dangerous (and abusive)? Sure, the world bends around the main characters to make sure they have no trouble: Tedd and Nanase's parents are magic users, Elliot's parents don't give a dump, and we pretty much don't know anything about the others. But an Elliot in a different environment would have seen his life turn into hell. Which could not be portrayed in EGS, for aesthetic reasons as well as because it would have required enormous focus on a single character, which is incompatible with the very large EGS cast.

[Rater202]

So, when Dan said he'd be giving the explanation soon, he meant "more or less immediately?"

Considering the number of his fans that demand explanations of everything(about half of the explanation panels have "a number of people asked me" or some variation in the commentary) and the number that hate it when he stops to explain things in the middle of action, I suppose that's for the best.

[Yuki Akuma]

Magus and Sirleck wearing seat belts amuses me and I know not why.

[Lamech]

So guessing for the explanation:

1) Magus was able to surf into Eliot because he replaced the beams spell effect. Just how beams work. It had to be Eliot because Pandora lied to him. Or maybe he's related to an alternate Universe Eliot.
2) The hair changed color because magic is a Drama Eldritch Entity and made it happen.

Also Ashely is observant and level headed. I mean there was a calm spell involved, but still.

[John Cribati]

Well Elliott needed to be Blond because the Dewitchery Diamond needs some kind of curse to split off. Magus gets the Blonde Elliott Body and Elliott gets his actual body back. Presumably.

[Rater202]

If you go back to Hidden Genesis, Magus is not only blonde in his true form but looks very similar to Elliot.

I'm thinking that possession gives the host some of the features of the possessor and that Elliot, in particular, was chosen because he was a healthy young man with a good deal of magical aptitude who somewhat resembles Magus and thus is a good template for Magus's new body.

...I'm kind of hoping that Ashley asks Magus why he didn't try to find some way to just ask Elliot for help. This really sounds like the kind of thing that Elliot would have gone along with if he'd just been asked first.

[Douglas]

...I'm kind of hoping that Ashley asks Magus why he didn't try to find some way to just ask Elliot for help. This really sounds like the kind of thing that Elliot would have gone along with if he'd just been asked first.

I don't think Magus had any way to communicate with Elliot, at least not directly. I suppose he could have tried asking Helena and Demetrius to act as intermediaries, but first he'd have had to convince them he's not an enemy. Pandora would have refused, and he knew it - that solution would have been way too boring for her. We haven't seen him interact with any other immortals, asking an aberration to do it generally wouldn't work, and as far as we know no one else could even perceive him.

[Vinyadan]

Magus and Terra looked a lot like Eliot and Ted alternates to me.

[Rater202]

Spoiler

Show

So, Magus claims that he and Terra are AU Eliot and Tedd.

And Voltaire apparently attacked Magus for craps and giggles.

[Lamech]

Squirrel Susan!

That is all.

[Silva Stormrage]

Blunt Ashley is great, and ya Magus has many many legitimate grievances with Pandora. It will be interesting to see Sarah's and Ellen's reaction to that once they find out.

[Rater202]

Blunt Ashley is great, and ya Magus has many many legitimate grievances with Pandora. It will be interesting to see Sarah's and Ellen's reaction to that once they find out.

I think that Ellen already knows if Sirleck's pulse comment is anything to go by.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think that Ellen already knows if Sirleck's pulse comment is anything to go by.

I'm starting to think that Sirleck may not be as fully in control as he normally would be, actually. I think the "muscle memory" and now "increased pulse rate" indicate that Ellen is still there, and has full access to senses, and at least limited control.

GW

[Rater202]

Anyway, speculation time: Pandora said that Tedd will be able to cast the spells he copies because he is a "font of power."

Does this mean that Tedd, despite what the Whale said, is capable of casting spells on his own(with it's commented maybe refering directly to his question about having spells of his own?) or does it simply mean that Tedd can just enchant wands or make magitech to create whatever spells he wants and cast them that way?

I mean, Pandora saying that he will rather than he can imply it's an ability he does not yet possess but will eventually, and she does emphasise the world "you" when saying that to Tedd.

[Douglas]

Anyway, speculation time: Pandora said that Tedd will be able to cast the spells he copies because he is a "font of power."

Does this mean that Tedd, despite what the Whale said, is capable of casting spells on his own(with it's commented maybe refering directly to his question about having spells of his own?) or does it simply mean that Tedd can just enchant wands or make magitech to create whatever spells he wants and cast them that way?

I mean, Pandora saying that he will rather than he can imply it's an ability he does not yet possess but will eventually, and she does emphasise the world "you" when saying that to Tedd.

I think it just means that Tedd has a large amount of power that he can use to fuel wands. He still needs a wand (or similar device) to be the mechanism for casting a spell, but he can keep using it when any normal person would have already exhausted the wand's stored power, their own personal energy, and all available ambient energy.

[Mith]

I think it just means that Tedd has a large amount of power that he can use to fuel wands. He still needs a wand (or similar device) to be the mechanism for casting a spell, but he can keep using it when any normal person would have already exhausted the wand's stored power, their own personal energy, and all available ambient energy.

The way I see it is that Tedd doesn't have a spell book to cast spells, but they can build spells.

The way I usually see magic systems like this is three components:

Will, being able to focus or channel a spell. A caster who is distracted or disoriented cannot channel power as effectively.

Power: The ability to fuel the spell. In EGS, this includes personal reserves, ambient magic, and external reserves such as wands and staves.

Structure: The spell itself which has the structure that shapes the power into a specific effect.

For most Wizards, they observe a spell and intuitively pick up how to make the structure, and can cast the spell.

Tedd can intellectually understand a spell to build a casting focus that contains the spell structure and potential reserves, but requires a Will and potentially more Power to actually cast. I think an advantage of this is that they can in time have a lot more foresight and preemptively develop spells faster than the traditional wizard. Whether Tedd will ever get a spellbook, I don't know. It may be that they'll reach a point where they can adapt the formulae to make up spells on the spot, craft a wand to channel it and then cast. Making them a combination of Harry Potter and Harry Dresden.

They also have a huge reserve of power to be able to keep casting spells and potentially allows them to disenchant themselves more easily. This last bit might be more from having both parents as wizards.

[JeenLeen]

I think that Ellen already knows if Sirleck's pulse comment is anything to go by.

This is probably a wild guess, but I wonder if Elliot's inconsistent 'sense magic power' ability manifests similar to that? I don't know if canonically it's been confirmed that Ellen retained that power, but I see no reason she shouldn't have it. Eh, probably not the case and instead it is some aspect of Ellen learning (and being ticked at) this manipulation behind her creation.

But if they happen to be side-swiped by some aberration merc Sirleck hired, then I'll be thinking it was the power sense tingling. But the more I think about it the less that makes sense in-universe and the less likely it seems like something that works for the plot.

I think the muscle memory thing is probably standard, though. As an immaterial thing that hasn't had a humanoid body for potentially centuries (we can assume at least decades by him having talked about previous hosts), he probably doesn't have much to go by when possessing somebody. He doesn't seem surprised to be using Ellen's muscle memory, so it seems reasonable he might have other automatic reactions to things, like whatever is causing the pulse rate.
I reckon that may also be tied into how he can use her magic. (Honestly, I was really surprised to see him able to do that, though I soon realized it was pretty obvious due to the obvious foreshadowing of him trying to possess Magus to have a powerful wizard as a host.)

[Rater202]

The way I see it is that Tedd doesn't have a spellbook to cast spells, but they can build spells.

Nowhere has it ever been implied that you need a spellbook to cast spells.

In fact, the existence of all the people with MAgic Marks and Greg(who has multiple spells and thus might be awakened) indicates that Spellbooks are a convinience, not a nessesity(the differance between trying to program a computer blind and reading the god damn manual.)

[EternalMelon]

Nowhere has it ever been implied that you need a spellbook to cast spells.

In fact, the existence of all the people with MAgic Marks and Greg(who has multiple spells and thus might be awakened) indicates that Spellbooks are a convinience, not a nessesity(the differance between trying to program a computer blind and reading the god damn manual.)

Magic User: Using magic is needlessly complicated and difficult to understand.

Magic: Fine, have a spellbook.

Magic User: ...This book is needlessly complicated and difficult to understand.

Magic: Ehehehehe

[Douglas]

For most Wizards, they observe a spell and intuitively pick up how to make the structure, and can cast the spell.

I don't think it's that easy for a normal Wizard. I think normal Wizards probably have to study and practice, possibly even needing coaching or access to the spellbook containing the spell, to learn someone else's spell. The special thing about Wizards is that they can learn other people's spells at all, not that they can do it easily. Being able to just see a spell and immediately understand it is specifically noted as being part of a Seer's abilities.