Binder Gestalt?

[Whiplord]

Trying to come up with a gestalt build to submit to one of the PbP games here on OOST.

Anyways, I've never done Gestalt, and so am at a slight loss as of what to do exactly. What I do know is I'm doing a melee-centric Binder build on one side, but besides that I have no idea. Should Binder be the support side, simply contributing to another class? Or should I support Binder with something like factotum?

Looking for ideas.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, I'm not overly familiar with Magic of Incarnum, but don't they usually amount to personal buffs?

If you're going to be focusing on melee, you might want to look at the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords for the other half....

[Draz74]

A Gestalt build that wants to be a melee force has really got to have full BAB, or close (Druids may be an exception). So I'd say make the other side of your Binder something that has full BAB.

Binder/Barbarian would be an easy choice. At higher levels, stacking DR from both classes (which I would allow, but check with your DM) makes a very tough character. It would also be up to the DM whether you can use vestige-granted nonpassive abilities while raging (I would say no for most of them, but it depends on the ability).

Binder/Ranger could be interesting. All good saves. Definitely can be a powerful archer at low levels with Leraje bound. Oh, but you wanted melee, so never mind ...

Any Tome of Battle build can benefit a lot from a Binder on its other "half." (ToB is great for Gestalt, probably too good ... though not as ridiculous as Duskblade!) If your ToB build uses most of its actions (standard and swift) on maneuvers, you'll just have to bind vestiges that give good passive abilities or out-of-combat utility. Binder//Crusader might be the best combo, because you get Charisma synergy and full BAB.

If, at some point, your non-Binder side needs to multiclass into a non-full-BAB base class for a few levels, then your Binder side can take Knight of the Sacred Seal for those levels. It's a pretty good PrC anyway.

[Whiplord]

I had considered ToB, but I've never played either a Binder or a martial class, and am unsure of whether I want to mix two unfamiliar systems. How hard is it to learn a martial class?

Also, how well would something like a crusader mesh with a Binder, who uses "heretical" magic which causes the church to typically hunt them down?

[Draz74]

I had considered ToB, but I've never played either a Binder or a martial class, and am unsure of whether I want to mix two unfamiliar systems. How hard is it to learn a martial class?

Also, how well would something like a crusader mesh with a Binder, who uses "heretical" magic which causes the church to typically hunt them down?

Can't deny that it could be confusing learning two new systems at once. Neither of them is as difficult to understand as, say, pre-3.5 Psionics; but neither of them is terribly simple either. I'm just struggling to come up with a simpler full-BAB class that will be as effective as a ToB class. I guess Duskblade could work great if you don't mind the MAD. Or Hexblade would be less cheesy, simpler, great flavor, full BAB, Charisma synergy, and more flexibility than a Fighter; not too powerful, but a decent choice anyway.

As for the fluff value of the Crusader combo ... well, unless you re-flavor the vestiges, then Crusader/Binder will probably work great for something in the more Chaotic/Evil end of the alignment spectrum (which Crusaders, unlike Paladins, are meant to represent sometimes), not so great for the Good/Lawful end. Then again, it all depends ... after all, Knight of the Sacred Seal is a PrC touted toward Paladins. How universally do the churches in your campaign setting consider binding to be heretical?

[Whiplord]

Hmm. Well, it sounds tempting, but the background I was thinking for the character involved him strongly disliking the church/gods in general. So unless Crusaders can be devoted to an ideal a la Cleric, then I'll have to reflavor or bail. Hexblade is seeming my most likely second option at this point.

[Nifft]

My suggestion for Gestalt is always: choose one side that complements the other side. So, if one side has continuous / passive / inexhaustible powers, make the other side focus on "going nova" with a limited resource (Arcane spellcasting, Psionics, a Barbarian's Rage or a Paladin's Smite).

Paladin // Binder might be really interesting. You'd present quite an enigma to certain factions of your church!

Barbarian // Binder could be cool, too. You could RP that the Vestiges as ancestral spirits of your tribe.

Cheers, -- N

[Sornjss Lichdom]

both of the above suggestions would be cool, theres a low level vestiage that gives you plate armor pro, and there another that gives you tower shield pro.

[Whiplord]

Okay, I'm getting an idea for a backstory that I like, but I have one question. I'm confused as to the paladin alignment restrictions, when it says no neutral, does it mean no classes on the neutral axis (NG, N, NE), or nothing at all with the neutral moniker (LN, NG, N, NE, CN).

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Nothing with the neutral moniker.

Crusader//Binder, Hexblade//Binder, Knight//Binder, and Barbarian//Binder would all be good choices. The Crusader can follow an ideal, or a cause.

If you're wanting to go with the flavor given for binders, then Hexblade compliments that flavor really well.

[slexlollar89]

if you are going for ultimate heretic, or a dislike of gods AND melee i say binder/fighter (the feat combinations with vestige powers can be crazy good) but i also say binder/warlock. i know you dont get full bab, but you get eldritch blast (that can be channeled or summoned as a glaive with the proper invocations) not to mention a host of crazy powers and abilities from both classes.

[JackMage666]

While it's not exactly what you're looking for, a Favored Soul has alot of potential with a Binder gestalt. You're BAB won't be perfect, but the free Weapon Focus and Soul Binding ability that increases attack rolls stack to make up the difference (but not extra attacks). Cha is important for both, as it increases save DC, and Wis is added on as a necessary ability, but thats about it. In turn, you get Medium Armor, Shields, and Divine Spells at the same rate as a Sorcerer (more spells known, though).

Only problem, you have to worship a diety, but that can be solved several ways. You could worship Boccob, for example, but you'd be restricted to the Quarterstaff for effective fighting. Or, Tenebrous (God-Orcus), but he's kinda evil. Any Chaotic god won't cause much problems. I think.
Besides, Favored Souls don't require the doctrine of Clerics, so Soul Binding may not be a problem to them. So long as the god wouldn't seem all that stuffy about it/

[Fax Celestis]

Spellthief//Binder is terribly fun to play.

[Quietus]

Spellthief//Binder is terribly fun to play.

Wonder how Spellthief/Ur-priest would go? Stealing from EVERYTHING!

[RTGoodman]

I think if you're looking toward Paladin//Binder but you're worried about roleplaying and backstory and such, check out the Grey Guard PrC from Complete Scoundrel.

Basically, Grey Guard lets paladins take their Code more loosely than normal. So, a Paladin/Grey Guard//Binder would be a Paladin who uses these semi-heretical vestige binding powers in order to fight evil, yet doesn't have to worry as much about falling.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Or... you could just be a Crusader, without all the stringent rules and worries about falling. While keeping all of the evil-fighting fluff and having good mechanics.

[Flawless]

Or... you could just be a Crusader, without all the stringent rules and worries about falling. While keeping all of the evil-fighting fluff and having good mechanics.

Amen.

Crusaders make paladins pretty redundant. If you don't want zo play a martial adept, though, hexblade - as said before - fits thematicly as well as mechanically.