afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[afroakuma]

I'm currently rereading the fourth thread and stumbled over this table you made for us back then. Is it still correct or did you change your opinion?

Oh I definitely changed my opinion.

Are you finally ready to tell us what's supposed to be behind the black bar?

Broadly speaking, the concept was beings who represented inspiration, the opposites of the obyriths - instead of a form of madness, their physical forms would fire the imagination and spark dreams.

Is there anything to know about the Aeons?

My spitball team did not like what I was doing with them. Ultimately I don't know that ancient celestials are interesting enough to invest the work into.

What can you tell us about the Primnals besides "They brought the bounty of Good to the Baernoloth and the Baernoloth reacted by bringing them the bounty of Evil"?

Spitball team didn't like them either, though that wasn't my work. It's been a long time since I found the concept to have any legs.

Another question: The Transitive Plane of Radiance. Do you think it has any kind of merit in the Planescape setting?

Super duper no. It's substantially boring.

I'm trying to think of a language to use for Far Realm denizens. Should I just use Undercommon? Or is Word Souper Salad the regional dialect?

Apart from the kaorti, who speak Kaorti, denizens of the Far Realm usually communicate telepathically or not at all. Conversation is not in their nature. Even the telepathic ones are likely demonstrating an emergent phenomenon that's a side effect of reality attempting to interpret their minds, since on the Far Realm side even being the subject of a major entity's curious attention can result in... well, in kaorti.

If you want tribes of organized, factional, communicative Lovecraftian beings, the Far Realm is not your ticket. Plenty of more valid options, or just straight-up make something up. The whole point of the Far Realm is that those things don't happen. They're too relatable. Entities of the Far Realm aren't weird starfish aliens; they are literally things not supposed to exist.

Is Vaprak The Troll Deity a popular deity?

Vaprak the Destroyer is not a particularly popular deity; he's got more worshipers among ogres than trolls, but neither is a particularly large (hehe) following. They do show up on a lot of worlds, which helps his cause, but given how directionless that is ("let's destroy stuff"), it's unlikely he'll grow in prominence.

1. What even are Vestiges?

I see this was addressed already, but I'll do my own 'cause I like to.

Vestiges are...n't entities. Anymore. The cosmos has no place for them; the multiverse cannot quantify them. Accidents of nonexistence, whose metaphysical addresses somehow got scoured, overwritten, or burned out entirely. Such incidents leave a trace of metaphysical "scar tissue," and vestiges are what's on the other side - the sentient memories of the times a piece of reality with an identity of its own was severed from the whole.

2. How much information would a vestige actually give about topics they had interest in during their life? Specifically Karsus. I'm playing a campaign right now and this may end up being incredibly important for my character.

Karsus's self-account would be tremendously self-aggrandizing, and more than a little disingenuous. In terms of discussing things outside of me me me at length, vestiges don't do that - they are not teachers, lecturers, or even interested conversationalists; they are not lonely, they are hungry to be let in, and when invoked to appear and make a pact, their patience is thin. Attempting to extort one for more information will likely result in it ending its manifestation and refusing to return at your next call. The other outcome, of course, would be the one you get from torture - a vestige will make up whatever it thinks you want to hear in an effort to satisfy. "Supreme magical power comes from fish, definitely. Now give me your soul."

3. Is there any way to revive vestiges? And I know that reviving Karsus is suicide given how much he pissed off the Gods. This one is unrelated to the campaign.

Depending on the vestige in question, there may or may not theoretically be means to do so, but they would be quite difficult to undertake, and of uncertain consequence.

4. Would a vestige even *want* to stop being a Vestige? I assume that's a requirement for revival. It seems to be an incredibly nice position to hold.

It's not a nice position to hold for most of them (Ahazu the Seizer is probably planning a really clever thing from beyond the veil) and the vast majority would love to regain footing in reality. That's sort of the point of binding, when you come right down to it.

1. What are the three times there was a truce between the Evil races? I know of one when they found a seal on one of the lower planes, but I don't know a great deal about what happened with that.

• The celestials tried to take advantage of the Blood War to wipe out all fiends in a surprise attack. The fiends paused the War to deliver an epic smackdown to a bunch of holy featherheads.

• The mind flayer empire formed on the Prime, basically out of nowhere. The fiends paused the War to discuss a response to a threat of this magnitude. Then the empire was shattered by the Gith and the Blood War resumed.

• The seal at the bottom of the Ghoresh Chasm was discovered. The fiends paused the war to meet and investigate it together. That lasted until a dispute about seating.

2. Given that Outsiders die when they're killed on the Prime, why do devils and demons return to their own plane? I feel like I'm getting something incredibly confused. (I'm really new to this stuff if you couldn't tell :) )

An outsider fully called to the Prime is killed there if its body is destroyed, but for some of the more major ones this is insufficient; their essence is partially linked to their home plane, which means even if bodily called to the Material Plane and slain there, their destruction just recalls them to reform from a position of familiarity and safety. Such a reformation is associated with a long period of incapacity to return to the Material Plane. Remember that the body and soul of an outsider are one and the same. The body normally collapses in some fashion as the essence of the outsider returns home - the balor's explosive death throes are a famous example, but FCI gives us a fun assortment of other effects of a less lethal nature.

Do Ygorl and Ssendam have cults on the Prime, and if so in what ways would such practice be noticably different from worshipping a Demon Lord? What sorts of goals would such cults pursue?

I mean, Ramenos and Laogzed have cults on the Material Plane; I can't imagine Ygorl and Ssendam are less likely, when you come down to it, though they'd be pretty darn rare. They'd likely be disorganized and more philosophical than militant - scribing esoteric and oft-illegible treatises on the nature of sanity, the wonder of entropy, fun things like that.

Are Ygorl and Ssendam themselves mostly Limbo focussed, or do they interact with the Prime and the Great Wheel in noticable or significant ways?

Ssendam considers herself in large part the guardian of the Spawning Stone and doesn't have much to do with the Great Wheel. Probably.

As for Ygorl, he spreads chaos and entropy pretty much for fun wherever he decides to journey, so he definitely has an impact outside of Limbo, though not a particularly organized or purpose-driven one.

How do the Githzerai in general feel about these Powers?

The githzerai consider them things to be avoided, which is normally easy (infinite plane and all that) but... yeah, basically when a slaad lord decides it's time for a visit, it's like a natural disaster making a beeline for you.

Entropic Reapers, Death Slaadi and Black Slaadi seem somewhat aligned with Ygorl's portfolio. Are there Limbo natives that are especially aligned towards Ssendam's portfolio/will?

Death slaad and black slaad are definitely not followers of Ygorl's philosophy; death slaad infuse themselves with Evil in their search for power, and black slaad are their evolution. They're a bit too purposefully malefic to match the Lord of Entropy. On a broad thematic level, I suppose chaos beasts align with things Ssendam is tied to, though there's nothing meaningful to that.

Are there any general statements that can be made about how Slaadi perceive these beings beyond "are powerful"?

"Will smoosh me for defying - probably." That's about the size of it.

Do many slaadi actually revere or worship them?

Oh dearie me no.

What are the most complex social groupings Slaadi form?

In olden times, reds would show up in numbers up to 18; as far back as anyone has cared to look, however, the biggest group slaad will form is a pack of around 6-10 of the same type, possibly led by a green, grey, or death slaad.

Do Slaadi make things, or just destroy them?

Can't imagine they would limit themselves to just destruction, that would be way too predictable.

What would be some examples of complex works of chaotic creation attributable to slaadi?

Does the Spawning Stone count as that, or as the opposite of that?

So, what are the other kinds of "not reality" that are at least known about even if by only a few?

There's wherever vestiges exist (I like to call it the Near Realm), the nondimensional/extradimensional void (known from catastrophic incidents with bags of holding and their ilk), annnnd that's basically it. One could add the Vast Medium simply as the understood gulf between realities (which means there is no reality within it).

Also how to Gods see vestiges and binders? It's something that doesn't seem so clear cut given that Gods don't appear to have any influence over vestiges at all.

Gods do not appreciate soulbinding. Non-things and unpersons continuing to influence the multiverse in some small way is unnerving to them. The default response appears to be mutual avoidance to prevent escalation.

And is there a power threshold that needs to be crossed to become a vestige or are there others that are much weaker than those listed in ToM who just not-exist in their non-reality without any contact?

Power does not appear to be relevant. The conditions to become a vestige are so rare, however, that it's not likely there's a teeming throng of sub-vestiges lurking out there utterly powerless.

Ah, and speaking of Illithid: Why do Illithid believe that their souls merge with the Elder Brain upon death and do they?

Mind flayers believe that their consciousness will join the gestalt of the elder brain because, well, they literally have their brains added to the elder brain. And no. Their souls go to Ilsensine. Their consciousness is devoured by the elder brain, which isn't a gestalt and has a vested interest in keeping that a secret. Ilsensine has little motivation to provide any contradictory information. Flayers have likely discovered this fact in the past and done the only logical thing - devised a way to mindjack the elder brain and become the new sole personality, at which point they gain a vested interest in maintaining the secret.

Edit: Meant to ask why vestiges are so unreliable in the information they give and if there's any way to circumvent this? I had assumed that they'd be willing to discuss things with mortals who were willing to pay a price and your answer to whether or not they'd want to be revived seems to reinforce this heavily, so why would they deliberately **** with people who try to converse with them on topics they cared so much for in life? Such as Magic with Karsus.

A vestige exists tangential to the multiverse and does not possess needs in the way of a being that is wholly part of it. As I mentioned above, asking a vestige to stick around and chew the fat is essentially torture to it, not unlike taunting a starving dog with steak and asking it to play fetch. The dog might go get the ball once or twice but it's hungry now and after fetch fails to provide it with food, the game is no longer a reliable way of satiating its needs.

In short, a vestige only wants one thing from contact with you: soul bandwidth, now. If it can't be confident that you're going to provide it, the vestige gets no joy in being jerked around for favors for uncertain reward.

Also how did Vecna manage to exist inside Sigil with enough power to stop the Lady tearing him from existence like a certain God of Portals whose name we don't want to mention? I don't really understand what happened there at all. Maybe I'm just not reading something that explains it well

A very unique magical exploit that can't be repeated - he used a very unique confluence of circumstances to gain admittance to Sigil without his godhead and then brought it through. Since Vecna was already within Sigil and the Lady's power was extended around the city entire, she would have had to bring it to bear in a form that would have destroyed the multiverse in order to do something about him firsthand. Even in the circumstances they were in, Vecna had to use a huge amount of his power just to hold on tooth and nail to his place in the city - when his lone avatar was disrupted by mortal heroes, his hold slipped and he was immediately and quite violently ejected.

The Xill have been kicking around the Ethereal Plane since 1st Edition but do they do anything significant other than be enslaving pirates looking for hosts for new Xill? They have enmity with phase spiders and night hags, from what I understand, but that's like all I can dig up on them.

There's not a ton of material on them. Xill are broadly divided into the Lower Clans (the rapacious pirate type) and High Clans (civilized, city-dwelling, mercantile - and still quite evil). They have plenty of foes on the Ethereal, including the nathri, who have all too often found themselves a food source for Lower Clan xill. Both groups worship the same deity in different aspects - Sixin, a lawful evil god who represents warfare and violence to the Lower Clans and intrigue and deception to the High Clans. They are known to speak Infernal.

[afroakuma]

Unfortunately, you are entirely correct. My only exposure to the Far Realms was the Manual of the Planes, and the idea of "That's where aberrations come from". My conceptualisation was therefore that while it was hostile to Prime life, it wasn't immediately brain-rendingly so

I mean, it makes you check to go permanently insane once per hour, which on average anyone fails before the end of the first day...

and that one could at least exist there even if only briefly.

Oh you can, but you'll be constantly exposed to madness, blindness, suffocation, immolation, all while suspended in an amoebic lack of gravity that screws with your magic. It's a real party.

Between the answers I have received here, and having read through all references to the Far Realms in thread three (off of the mention of Otiax there), it's become clear that my previous conception does not fit with what it is actually supposed to be. Which leaves me in a tight spot, as I have already written myself into a corner and established a tear to the Far Realms in my home game and established plot points pointing directly to it.

I mean, if you need some help with that, my inbox is always open. Thread too, for that matter, if you don't think your players will nose about.

I get the clear impression this thread is not the place to begin speculating on what is likely to become wildly-divergent ideas for my game

Inbox for that.

I suppose one further question - in looking back, I found your "Expedition to the Far Realms" writing. The last I could find was in thread five, and involved the group entering what sounded awfully like a tear in existence. Is there more that I've missed, or did you stop there because of the inherent inability to describe the Far Realms?

Heh... that would have been an amusingly meta way to reference that... but no, just takes a while to charge the brain to write that instead of other things, and I tend to go where my focus is drawn. For instance, somebody put Ravenloft back on my radar, and I've just been devising new domains and darklords for the past couple of weeks...

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Unfortunately, you are entirely correct. My only exposure to the Far Realms was the Manual of the Planes, and the idea of "That's where aberrations come from".

That's not really surprising. When 4e came out it decided to really push a lot of Far Realm material (both in the core rules by/along with making Warlocks core, in FR novels like the decidedly sub-par Abolethic Sovereignty series, and so forth) while conflating that with Lovecraftian stuff (the inclusion of which would already have been plenty hackish and cliché on its own)--for instance, the Warlock's Star Pact description starts "You have mastered the astrologer’s art, learning the secret names of the stars and gazing into the Far Realm beyond," which...isn't at all how that works, as has already been covered--and then 5e continued that trend, so a lot of recent D&D lore regarding the Far Realm has been "contaminated" by that watered-down not-at-all-lore-compliant version of things (not unlike a Far Realm incursion onto the Prime, in fact ) until it's hard to tell which sources are trustworthy and what lore is "real" vs. what is retconned.

Which leaves me in a tight spot, as I have already written myself into a corner and established a tear to the Far Realms in my home game and established plot points pointing directly to it.

Thank you, and everyone else who has responded to my questions! I've gained a little more insight, picked up a couple of ideas I can use, and now need to decide whether to lean into things and play it off as a "weirder than normal astral/ethereal", or find a way to cut and run.

Getting Afro's ideas over PM are definitely your best bet there, but one option for handling that comes to mind: The tear to the Far Realm is not, in fact, a tear to the Far Realm itself. Rather, someone stupid and/or suicidal opened a tear to the Far Realm somewhere in the Ethereal Plane, the protomatter around the tear quickly coalesced/congealed into a demiplane heavily influenced by the Far Realm, the tear you've already established actually leads to that slightly-less-brain-kersploding echo of the Far Realm, and anyone else involved simply assumed that the tear lead directly to the Far Realm because, really, you want to get closer to that thing to double-check?

That approach has the advantages that (A) that provides a suitably-Far-Realm-themed place for the party to physically go and adventure without leading to a near-automatic TPK and (B) hitting them with the truth once they've been dealing with the tear for a while makes for a nice "Wait, hold on--this horrifying impossible nightmare land is only the kiddie pool version of the real deal!?" revelation on the PCs' part. Of course, this approach doesn't work if you've already established beyond the shadow of a doubt (communion with a god of knowledge, confirmation from a Far Realm cultist BBEG, etc.) that the tear does in fact lead to the Far Realm, rather than merely having reasonably knowledgeable third parties tell the party that's what's going on.

[Tzardok]

Broadly speaking, the concept was beings who represented inspiration, the opposites of the obyriths - instead of a form of madness, their physical forms would fire the imagination and spark dreams.

While being equally dangerous to the mind, maybe? What name would you have given them, muses?

Ultimately I don't know that ancient celestials are interesting enough to invest the work into.

How sad. Do you have any hints on what you wanted to do with them?

Super duper no. It's substantially boring.

I am, again, not surprised.

Heh... that would have been an amusingly meta way to reference that... but no, just takes a while to charge the brain to write that instead of other things, and I tend to go where my focus is drawn. For instance, somebody put Ravenloft back on my radar, and I've just been devising new domains and darklords for the past couple of weeks...

Does that mean I am a muse now? How... a-muse-ing.

[Sepultra]

Oh, it's very clear cut because deities have no power over vestiges. The gods are disturbed by them. They can't perceive them at all. All religions demonize binders for "tracking with powers beyond mortal ken" and "surrendering their souls to unnatural abominations".

Gods do not appreciate soulbinding. Non-things and unpersons continuing to influence the multiverse in some small way is unnerving to them. The default response appears to be mutual avoidance to prevent escalation.

So, does biding a vestige give it power in any way or is this just a situation of the Gods not wanting people to go near things they don't really understand?

Besides that there are quite a few vestiges whom the gods are angry with (Andras, for example) or fearful of (Chupuclops was a real terror).

Who is Chupuclops? I googled the name and just found another giantitp forum post. The name sounds fun

What I don't understand is why Aoskar's presence in Sigil wasn't as damaging as Vecna's.

I mean, aside from an answer within the setting, I was told recently that DVD was written by people who had no clue about how the settings worked with no consultation with veteran writers. That would probably explain it.

Karsus's self-account would be tremendously self-aggrandizing, and more than a little disingenuous. In terms of discussing things outside of me me me at length, vestiges don't do that - they are not teachers, lecturers, or even interested conversationalists; they are not lonely, they are hungry to be let in, and when invoked to appear and make a pact, their patience is thin. Attempting to extort one for more information will likely result in it ending its manifestation and refusing to return at your next call. The other outcome, of course, would be the one you get from torture - a vestige will make up whatever it thinks you want to hear in an effort to satisfy. "Supreme magical power comes from fish, definitely. Now give me your soul."

Yeah makes sense. I take it there's literally nothing written on whatever place they're from?

It's not a nice position to hold for most of them (Ahazu the Seizer is probably planning a really clever thing from beyond the veil) and the vast majority would love to regain footing in reality. That's sort of the point of binding, when you come right down to it.

Depending on the vestige in question, there may or may not theoretically be means to do so, but they would be quite difficult to undertake, and of uncertain consequence.

Has a vestige every managed to regain its foothold in reality? Is there a method of doing this through binding or is binding just a stop-gap?
And what type of means would you consider if you've given it thought?

They don't. Their memories and knowledge, on the other hand, does. As for why they believe it... *shrug* Maybe it's a deliberate lie by the Elder Brains to make them easier to control?

Flayers have likely discovered this fact in the past and done the only logical thing - devised a way to mindjack the elder brain and become the new sole personality, at which point they gain a vested interest in maintaining the secret.

Yeah that makes sense. Cheers. I guess it becomes much easier to explain a lot of these things if you consider that the answer is almost always about control/power.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. It's been an interesting read. The only other thing I really have to ask on this is what the conditions are for becoming a vestige. After reading over a few, the given backstories in ToM seem wildly inconsistent and varied.

Ah also, if vestiges are hungry for experience, why do Good Pacts exist? I thought influence was the method by which a vestige could experience the world - or am I misunderstanding something?

[Alea]

Ah also, if vestiges are hungry for experience, why do Good Pacts exist? I thought influence was the method by which a vestige could experience the world - or am I misunderstanding something?

No, the vestige gets to experience things through the binder either way—but without influence, they don’t get to push the binder towards those experiences they’d most enjoy. Still, a good pact is better than nothing.

[afroakuma]

While being equally dangerous to the mind, maybe? What name would you have given them, muses?

That was what I was considering calling the whole category, like how "demon" covers loumara, obyriths, tana'ri, and other Abyssal natives. Never did find a satisfactory cognate for the lawful side.

How sad. Do you have any hints on what you wanted to do with them?

None worth discussing. I had no plans to involve them in anything interesting or have them, you know... still exist.

I am, again, not surprised.

I mean, have you read the article? There's no stated justification for it, no role it fills beyond "this would be the opposite!" and that's pretty insufficient.

So, does biding a vestige give it power in any way or is this just a situation of the Gods not wanting people to go near things they don't really understand?

It can give the vestige influence over a living being, depending on the pact quality. It can also inspire questions like, oh, the ones you're asking below, which involve steep and dangerous perversions of the rules of the multiverse... can't imagine why the gods would find that sort of thing problematic.

Who is Chupuclops? I googled the name and just found another giantitp forum post. The name sounds fun

Chupoclops was an apocalyptic spiderlike entity that existed on the Ethereal Plane. When trapped there by the gods and slain by a group of seven heroes both living and dead, its essence left the multiverse.

I mean, aside from an answer within the setting, I was told recently that DVD was written by people who had no clue about how the settings worked with no consultation with veteran writers. That would probably explain it.

Vecna's little visit wasn't the first time a god was in Sigil; it also wasn't the second time. On that occasion, the Lady was displeased that a god was present in her city and encouraged him to get out immediately if not sooner, but the City of Doors suffered no repercussions from his presence. Most likely it's a combination of how Vecna got in, how much divine power he represented, and how destructive his plans were.

Yeah makes sense. I take it there's literally nothing written on whatever place they're from?

Given that they're not from a "place," no. No there is not.

Has a vestige every managed to regain its foothold in reality?

No.

Is there a method of doing this through binding or is binding just a stop-gap?

Binding would never be a sufficient way of bringing a vestige back into reality.

And what type of means would you consider if you've given it thought?

You'd of course want to do something distinctive for each one, but underpinning the process might be a need to work with unusual magics - a ritual of renaming to reestablish a cosmic "address" for the entity, possibly some incarnum-adjacent magic or other soul metaphysics to re-lay the foundation for its existence... chronomancy would be technically viable but a horrible solution, as it so often is. The process of re-establishing a vestige should be unknown, undocumented, never tried, specific to the vestige, very dangerous, and highly uncertain.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. It's been an interesting read. The only other thing I really have to ask on this is what the conditions are for becoming a vestige. After reading over a few, the given backstories in ToM seem wildly inconsistent and varied.

There aren't fixed conditions. A few common threads can be identified, but the point of vestiges is that they all come about on an exception basis, a weird metaphysical division-by-zero. If your character goal is to become a vestige, you're doing it wrong.

[Tzardok]

That was what I was considering calling the whole category, like how "demon" covers loumara, obyriths, tana'ri, and other Abyssal natives. Never did find a satisfactory cognate for the lawful side.

Hmm, it would have to be some mythological term for a group of beings that are "makers of order" or "creators of light" or something like that. My first thought was "elohnim", but...

Oh, Eldan, something I wanted to ask you: You were planing to revamp the Eladrin. Did that projekt ever go anywhere?

[Eldan]

Not really, no. I'm a master of half-assing big homebrew projects. I did have some ideas, but i probably forgot half of them again, by now.

I guess the basic idea was to build them around their three basic shticks: elemental warrior (with subtypes), freedom fighter (with freedom magic) and gandalf-like disguised angelic mentor. Mostly the last one.

[ShurikVch]

Question: are Incorporeal creatures invulnerable near the Spire of Outlands?
I mean: no magic, no psionics, no magical weapons, and no supernatural abilities...

[Caelestion]

That would rather depend on how the creature is incorporeal. Any creature reliant on the Ethereal wont appear anywhere in the Outer Planes.

[Tzardok]

Question: are Incorporeal creatures invulnerable near the Spire of Outlands?
I mean: no magic, no psionics, no magical weapons, and no supernatural abilities...

Didn't you ask that question before?

Here's the answer you got the last time.

[ShurikVch]

Didn't you ask that question before?

Here's the answer you got the last time.

And which (Ex) abilitiea are able to hit Incorporeals?
Or was it just theoretical extrapolation: "if there were such abilities, they would work"?

[Efrate]

Riverine hits incorporeal does it not as a force effect? Even though it is non magical. I think serenewood does as well.

[ShurikVch]

Riverine hits incorporeal does it not as a force effect? Even though it is non magical.

Riverine is, actually, so magical it would ping on Detect Magic as "Moderate", because it's literally just movable piece of shaped Wall of Force with some high-pressure water inside; it would self-destruct near the Spire.

I think serenewood does as well.

You mean - Serren from Book of Exalted Deeds?
Yes, it may work.
As well as Ghostoil from Libris Mortis.
The keyword there is "may": Spire effects are weird - if it even blocks completely non-magical poisons (so you can't even get drunk near the Spire! ), then who would ensure Serren or Ghostoil would still work as usual?

[unseenmage]

Riverine is, actually, so magical it would ping on Detect Magic as "Moderate", because it's literally just movable piece of shaped Wall of Force with some high-pressure water inside; it would self-destruct near the Spire.
...

Could you please cite where Riverine pings on detect magic please?

[ShurikVch]

Could you please cite where Riverine pings on detect magic please?

Protip: if it can be destroyed with Mordenkainen's Disjunction, then it's magic, and magic can be detected by Detect Magic (barring some concealment measures)

[Sepultra]

It can give the vestige influence over a living being, depending on the pact quality.

No, the vestige gets to experience things through the binder either way—but without influence, they don’t get to push the binder towards those experiences they’d most enjoy. Still, a good pact is better than nothing.

Suppose I worded the question terribly: Why go Good Pacts exist *at all*? Would there really be a significant reduction in the number of people willing to allow something access to their soul in exchange for if it happened to make them a bit quirky for the duration? And if that's the case, why have Bad Pacts at all?

It can also inspire questions like, oh, the ones you're asking below, which involve steep and dangerous perversions of the rules of the multiverse... can't imagine why the gods would find that sort of thing problematic.

Honestly? Fair point.

Chupoclops was an apocalyptic spiderlike entity that existed on the Ethereal Plane. When trapped there by the gods and slain by a group of seven heroes both living and dead, its essence left the multiverse.

Is this canon? I really can't find a single thing on anything that sounds similar when I search. Is there a book or anything that this entity is mentioned in?

Vecna's little visit wasn't the first time a god was in Sigil; it also wasn't the second time.

Aside from Aoskar and Vecna, who else got into Sigil as a Divinity?

Most likely it's a combination of how Vecna got in, how much divine power he represented, and how destructive his plans were.

I've been talking a lot about this with people lately and I was recently told that it states in the module that Vecna has backing of something. Not sure what, exactly, but something power - and that this is why The Lady can't show him the door, so to speak. Is this accurate?

Given that they're not from a "place," no. No there is not.

Again, fair point.

You'd of course want to do something distinctive for each one, but underpinning the process might be a need to work with unusual magics - a ritual of renaming to reestablish a cosmic "address" for the entity, possibly some incarnum-adjacent magic or other soul metaphysics to re-lay the foundation for its existence... chronomancy would be technically viable but a horrible solution, as it so often is. The process of re-establishing a vestige should be unknown, undocumented, never tried, specific to the vestige, very dangerous, and highly uncertain.

Before this thread I had no interest in having a character try to resurrect a vestige, but this sounds like a very fun secret goal for an adventure with really interesting potential results.
And wouldn't chronomancy have you knocked off by whatever things happen to govern that (aside from whatever other terrible effects it might have. I just mean it sounds like a very stupid thing to attempt to begin with)? I swear that there's at least one creature I've heard of that would track down anyone who messed around with time too much, but I can't for the life of me remember it right now.

There aren't fixed conditions. A few common threads can be identified, but the point of vestiges is that they all come about on an exception basis, a weird metaphysical division-by-zero. If your character goal is to become a vestige, you're doing it wrong.

It's not. I'm interested in it IC because it relates to the soul and my current PC has an interest in that. OOC I just think the whole idea is cool.


Ah, and another unrelated question: Why did Asmodeus allow the Dark Eight to remove Zariel from her position?

[Afghanistan]

Would it be possible to make a construct that could bind a vestige and give that vestige control over said construct. I imagine it wouldn't be the same as actually being alive, but would the vestige be happier that they can now "live" in the material? If the vestige was bound this way, would they still be able to be bound by other binders/pact magic practitioners?

[Bartmanhomer]

Are There any Elemental Lords or Deities exist? If so what are their names?

[Sepultra]

Would it be possible to make a construct that could bind a vestige and give that vestige control over said construct. I imagine it wouldn't be the same as actually being alive, but would the vestige be happier that they can now "live" in the material? If the vestige was bound this way, would they still be able to be bound by other binders/pact magic practitioners?

I'll be (attempting) to use this idea if it's actually possible. Thanks for that

[afroakuma]

Question: are Incorporeal creatures invulnerable near the Spire of Outlands?
I mean: no magic, no psionics, no magical weapons, and no supernatural abilities...

Why are we doing this a second time?

Suppose I worded the question terribly: Why go Good Pacts exist *at all*? Would there really be a significant reduction in the number of people willing to allow something access to their soul in exchange for if it happened to make them a bit quirky for the duration?

Agares forces you to speak the truth; Amon may require you to resist healing spells cast by allies; Andromalius incites you to cause trouble between friends; Chupoclops forces you to suffer fear effects and morale-penalizing abilities without resistance. "A bit quirky" can result in a surprising amount of harm from even one vestige imposing its influence on you; when binding more, it could get silly fast.

And if that's the case, why have Bad Pacts at all?

Why have pacts at all, if not because you're looking for power? Not everyone can negotiate a great deal on their Internet service; they're still in the market for Internet, though. Once you've agreed to share your soul, it's too late to back out (unless you have a feat for it).

Is this canon? I really can't find a single thing on anything that sounds similar when I search. Is there a book or anything that this entity is mentioned in?

I like to call it "Tome of Magic" because that's the only source for Chupoclops. And most other vestiges, for that matter.

Aside from Aoskar and Vecna, who else got into Sigil as a Divinity?

I didn't say got in, I said was in. The Believers of the Source operated a fun little facility in Sigil which housed a number of people they believed were close to realizing their potential and undergoing apotheosis. At the end of one adventure module, one of them "goes off" and becomes a brand-new deity while still in Sigil. She encourages the new deity to leave, which happens relatively quickly.

I've been talking a lot about this with people lately and I was recently told that it states in the module that Vecna has backing of something. Not sure what, exactly, but something power - and that this is why The Lady can't show him the door, so to speak. Is this accurate?

Vecna is being counseled by an obscure entity known as "the Serpent," but its involvement is immaterial to his position in Sigil. The Lady can't show him the door because he got in with enough strength to push back against as much force as she's able to personally exert without escalating the conflict to a level that would instantly sunder the multiverse. If she had elected to step it up, Vecna would be dust before he could blink.

Before this thread I had no interest in having a character try to resurrect a vestige, but this sounds like a very fun secret goal for an adventure with really interesting potential results.

"Interesting" less so than "catastrophic" in all likelihood. Reversing the non-existence of a vestige repatriates something that has been outside reality, and that's never good juju.

And wouldn't chronomancy have you knocked off by whatever things happen to govern that

Oh very yes.

It's not. I'm interested in it IC because it relates to the soul and my current PC has an interest in that. OOC I just think the whole idea is cool.

Just remember, meddling with soul shenanigans is a good way to get on the divine naughty list.

Ah, and another unrelated question: Why did Asmodeus allow the Dark Eight to remove Zariel from her position?

Well, it was Bel who did it, and Asmodeus found it to be a highly enjoyable move to make - a feckless betrayal that would ensure a Lord of the Nine with no allegiance from the time of the Reckoning, without extraordinary power and still subject to the byzantine order of the Army of the Blood War, whose grasp exceeding his reach and status as functionally an upjumped pit fiend would ensure the other lords would view him with enormous contempt. He comes with zero baggage, is zero threat, and can be cashed in at some point in the future without being mourned. What's not to like?

Would it be possible to make a construct that could bind a vestige and give that vestige control over said construct.

Wouldn't really work, no.

I imagine it wouldn't be the same as actually being alive, but would the vestige be happier that they can now "live" in the material?

I wouldn't think it would make a vestige happy to "experience" this, no.

If the vestige was bound this way, would they still be able to be bound by other binders/pact magic practitioners?

A vestige can be bound by multiple binders at the same time, so this method, assuming it functioned, would not actually "rescue" the vestige itself from its fate.

Are There any Elemental Lords or Deities exist? If so what are their names?

I mean, yes, quite a few. Some of the more prominent, in brief:

Princes of Elemental Good
• Ben-Hadar, of Water
• Chan, of Air
• Sunnis, of Earth
• Zaaman Rul, of Fire

Princes of Elemental Evil
• Cryonax, of Ice
• Imix, of Fire
• Ogrémoch, of Earth
• Olhydra, of Water
• Yan-C-Bin, of Air

Prominent Elemental Gods
• Akadi, of Air
• Grumbar, of Earth,
• Istishia, of Water
• Kossuth, of Fire

[Tzardok]

How is Yan-C-Bin supposed to be pronounced, anyway?

Edit: We can be quite happy that the archomentals aren't anime characters. Otherwise we would have to deal with Chan-chan.

[Caelestion]

I always pronounced it exactly as it's spelt - Yan-See-Bin.

[Bartmanhomer]

Why are we doing this a second time?



Agares forces you to speak the truth; Amon may require you to resist healing spells cast by allies; Andromalius incites you to cause trouble between friends; Chupoclops forces you to suffer fear effects and morale-penalizing abilities without resistance. "A bit quirky" can result in a surprising amount of harm from even one vestige imposing its influence on you; when binding more, it could get silly fast.



Why have pacts at all, if not because you're looking for power? Not everyone can negotiate a great deal on their Internet service; they're still in the market for Internet, though. Once you've agreed to share your soul, it's too late to back out (unless you have a feat for it).



I like to call it "Tome of Magic" because that's the only source for Chupoclops. And most other vestiges, for that matter.



I didn't say got in, I said was in. The Believers of the Source operated a fun little facility in Sigil which housed a number of people they believed were close to realizing their potential and undergoing apotheosis. At the end of one adventure module, one of them "goes off" and becomes a brand-new deity while still in Sigil. She encourages the new deity to leave, which happens relatively quickly.



Vecna is being counseled by an obscure entity known as "the Serpent," but its involvement is immaterial to his position in Sigil. The Lady can't show him the door because he got in with enough strength to push back against as much force as she's able to personally exert without escalating the conflict to a level that would instantly sunder the multiverse. If she had elected to step it up, Vecna would be dust before he could blink.



"Interesting" less so than "catastrophic" in all likelihood. Reversing the non-existence of a vestige repatriates something that has been outside reality, and that's never good juju.



Oh very yes.



Just remember, meddling with soul shenanigans is a good way to get on the divine naughty list.



Well, it was Bel who did it, and Asmodeus found it to be a highly enjoyable move to make - a feckless betrayal that would ensure a Lord of the Nine with no allegiance from the time of the Reckoning, without extraordinary power and still subject to the byzantine order of the Army of the Blood War, whose grasp exceeding his reach and status as functionally an upjumped pit fiend would ensure the other lords would view him with enormous contempt. He comes with zero baggage, is zero threat, and can be cashed in at some point in the future without being mourned. What's not to like?



Wouldn't really work, no.



I wouldn't think it would make a vestige happy to "experience" this, no.



A vestige can be bound by multiple binders at the same time, so this method, assuming it functioned, would not actually "rescue" the vestige itself from its fate.



I mean, yes, quite a few. Some of the more prominent, in brief:

Princes of Elemental Good
• Ben-Hadar, of Water
• Chan, of Air
• Sunnis, of Earth
• Zaaman Rul, of Fire

Princes of Elemental Evil
• Cryonax, of Ice
• Imix, of Fire
• Ogrémoch, of Earth
• Olhydra, of Water
• Yan-C-Bin, of Air

Prominent Elemental Gods
• Akadi, of Air
• Grumbar, of Earth,
• Istishia, of Water
• Kossuth, of Fire

Wait a minute there's no Good Ice Elementals Lord or Deity? What about the Light and Dark Elemental Lords or Deities?

[Tzardok]

Wait a minute there's no Good Ice Elementals Lord or Deity? What about the Light and Dark Elemental Lords or Deities?

First: please quote only the relevant parts of a post you want to respond to.

Second: Light and dark aren't elements in D&D, they can't have elementals.

Third: A lot of the paraelements have lords, but only one per paraelement; Cryonax is simply the only noteworthy of them, so he gets added to the list of prominent lords. And because he's evil he's added to the list of evil lords.
And yes: None of the paraelements have deities.

[Bartmanhomer]

First: please quote only the relevant parts of a post you want to respond to.

Second: light and dark aren't elements in D&D, they can't have elements.

Third: a lot of the paraelements have lords, but only one per paraelement; Cryonax is simply the only noteworthy of them, so he gets added to the list of prominent lords. And because he's evil he's added to the list of evil lords.
And yes: none of the paraelements have deities.

Sorry about that. I just have a habit of posting everything.

[Sepultra]

Agares forces you to speak the truth; Amon may require you to resist healing spells cast by allies; Andromalius incites you to cause trouble between friends; Chupoclops forces you to suffer fear effects and morale-penalizing abilities without resistance. "A bit quirky" can result in a surprising amount of harm from even one vestige imposing its influence on you; when binding more, it could get silly fast.

Yeah when you start binding more than one vestige it makes a lot more sense. Forgot about that.

I like to call it "Tome of Magic" because that's the only source for Chupoclops. And most other vestiges, for that matter.

Tome of Magic was the first place I looked. I must be blind. Thanks!

I didn't say got in, I said was in. The Believers of the Source operated a fun little facility in Sigil which housed a number of people they believed were close to realizing their potential and undergoing apotheosis. At the end of one adventure module, one of them "goes off" and becomes a brand-new deity while still in Sigil. She encourages the new deity to leave, which happens relatively quickly.

Oh okay. What are The Believers of the Source and what is the Source?

Vecna is being counseled by an obscure entity known as "the Serpent," but its involvement is immaterial to his position in Sigil. The Lady can't show him the door because he got in with enough strength to push back against as much force as she's able to personally exert without escalating the conflict to a level that would instantly sunder the multiverse. If she had elected to step it up, Vecna would be dust before he could blink.

Ah okay. Makes sense yeah.

"Interesting" less so than "catastrophic" in all likelihood.

Interesting and catastrophic are synonymous for the average D&D adventure.

Just remember, meddling with soul shenanigans is a good way to get on the divine naughty list.

Very much aware! But honestly with the amount of ways there are to get oneself on this naughty list I'm surprised Wizards as a class aren't abhorred by the average deity.

Well, it was Bel who did it, and Asmodeus found it to be a highly enjoyable move to make - a feckless betrayal that would ensure a Lord of the Nine with no allegiance from the time of the Reckoning, without extraordinary power and still subject to the byzantine order of the Army of the Blood War, whose grasp exceeding his reach and status as functionally an upjumped pit fiend would ensure the other lords would view him with enormous contempt. He comes with zero baggage, is zero threat, and can be cashed in at some point in the future without being mourned. What's not to like?

How would he cash it in? I'm not at all familiar with the way these things work so apologies if the question is a bit dumb.

Also, how do Unique Devils come to be? With Demons it seems rather obvious given that the Abyss will eventually spew out a different type of monstrosity, but with Devils the only two I know of some origin existing for are Asmodeus and Zariel who were both corrupted. Other than those two, they seem to be limited to the children of other Lords of Baator.

I wouldn't think it would make a vestige happy to "experience" this, no.

What if one was to create them a body with some modification of the spell Clone?


Again I have to thank you for all of this. I know I'm flooding you with questions but all this stuff is really cool and the answers end up leaving me with even more questions.

[Tzardok]

Oh okay. What are The Believers of the Source and what is the Source?

The Believers, also known as the Godsmen, are one of the fifteen philosophical factions fighting for the supremacy of their philosophy in Sigil and the multiverse (at least before "The Faction War", an adventure after which the Lady banished them from Sigil). The Godsmen believe that everything in life is a test, and by being successful in those tests one comes closer to the Source, with ascension to godhood being either the last or one of the last steps. Essentially, they all try to become gods.

How would he cash it in? I'm not at all familiar with the way these things work so apologies if the question is a bit dumb.

He means "cash Bel in", as in "Oh, Bel has outlived his usefulness. Off with his head! Who would mourn him?"

Also, how do Unique Devils come to be? With Demons it seems rather obvious given that the Abyss will eventually spew out a different type of monstrosity, but with Devils the only two I know of some origin existing for are Asmodeus and Zariel who were both corrupted. Other than those two, they seem to be limited to the children of other Lords of Baator.

Fiendish Codex II claims that promotion to an unique form requires the direct intervention of one of the Lords of the Nine.

What if one was to create them a body with some modification of the spell Clone?

You are trying to find an easy cheat for bringing a vestige back. Stop. It's not supposed to be easy. But if you really are obsessed with the topic, here's how one could go and resurrect one:

Let's choose a vestige at random... Ronove. I have no idea why anybody would want to resurrect her, but.. oh well.
She's said to be the inventor of monkhood and Afro said something like that would require epic-level incarnum usage and truenaming, so here's the step by step plan:

• Find the hidden plane of K'un-Lun, search there for the Registry of Names of the Celestial Bureaucracy, which holds the truenames of all things under the Bureaucracy's perview, and learn the truename of the monk's arts itself.
• Bring into your possession the iron coffin in which Ronove was burried alive, which is preserved in secret by the Order of the First Fist, a secretive monk order whose only monastery is situated on *rolls dice* Kara-Tur.
• Enter Grumbar's realm on the Elemental Plane of Earth and steal there a human's worth of True Earth. It must be taken by force, and it mustn't be handled with anything but bare hands.
• Bring all three things, a binder who is favored by Ronove, an incarnum using monk and a powerful truenamer to the Bastion of Unborn Souls. Draw Ronove's seal with the True Earth and place the coffin on it. Fill it it to the brim with unborn souls ripped from the crystal trees growing there and close it. The binder needs to call Ronove, but not bind her, while the meldshaper forms the unborn souls into a half-solid fitting form. When all this is done, the truenamer performs an unique variant of the Ritual of Renaming, involving the stolen truename and transfering it to Ronove, while the other two need to hold their respective parts of the ritual on the border between bound and gone / solid shape and no shape. If all three manage to do their part, Ronove is reborn into reality.

Consequences: Ronove is reborn as an unique outsider with the abilities of a "super-monk", maybe even as a heropower or demipower of monks. But the ritual interrupted the normal flow of unborn souls. For the next year, every child on the Prime is stillborn. Most of them rise as atropal scions. Also, Ronove's presence on the Positive Energy Plane harms the flow of Ki; for as long as she is there and the next couple of decades, monks, ninjas and other Ki-users (maybe martial adepts) will find their Ki alternately responding sluggish as earth and as difficult to grasp as the sky; sometimes it is even completely unavailable.

Edit: And before you ask: most of that I only know the barest thing about; or I invented it whole-cloth. So don't ask what's "True Earth" is supposed to be. (By the way, what's the name of Grumbar's divine realm? I can't find it anywhere.)

Edit Edit: And be glad that I didn't involve Ronove's restriction that she can only be called under the sky and require you to steal a piece of blue sky and bring it to the Positive. (Although, that isn't a bad idea. Where would be the best place for that? Maybe the Eberron plane of Syrania... nicely far off the beaten planar path... on the other hand... rule of three...*leaves mumbling and pondering*)

[Sepultra]

The Believers, also known as the Godsmen, are one of the fifteen philosophical factions fighting for the supremacy of their philosophy in Sigil and the multiverse (at least before "The Faction War", an adventure after which the Lady banished them from Sigil). The Godsmen believe that everything in life is a test, and by being successfull in those tests one comes closer to the Source, with ascension to godhood being either the last or one of the last steps. Essentially, they all try to become gods.

Cheers.

He means "cash Bel in", as in "Oh, Bel has outlived his usefulness. Off with his head! Who would mourn him?"

Oh yeah, that makes sense.

Fiendish Codex II claims that promotion to an unique form requires the direct intervention of one of the Lords of the Nine.

So are the rumours that Bel is sapping Zariel's power possibly for the goal of ascending to a unique Devil?

You are trying to find an easy cheat for bringing a vestige back. Stop.

I'm not at all, actually. Vestiges want experiences and, presumably, have something worth bargaining for or there would be no purpose in Soul Binding to begin with. I'm more thinking about different ways one could bargain with them. Soul Binding a body like that itself would be weird given that they obviously can't wholesale possess anyone through soul binding (or if they can they choose not to because it would discourage people). However, a clone body with some mind implanted into it through something akin to Nybor's Psychic Imprint that they could commune with would surely be valuable to them, wouldn't it?

I appreciate the effort you went into for that*. It's an entertaining prospect, but I wouldn't have expected anything like that from this thread. I assume it'll always come down to the DM - but I did enjoy reading that.

Edit: And before you ask: most of that I only know the barest thing about; or I invented it whole-cloth. So don't ask what's "True Earth" is supposed to be. (By the way, what's the name of Grumbar's divine realm? I can't find it anywhere.)

Yeah I assumed as much - and Earth doesn't interest me enough to ask that anyways

Edit Edit: And be glad that I didn't involve Ronove's restriction that she can only be called under the sky and require you to steal a piece of blue sky and bring it to the Positive. (Although, that isn't a bad idea. Where would be the best place for that? Maybe the Eberron plane of Syrania... nicely far off the beaten planar path... *leaves mumbling and pondering*

It's not a bad idea. None of these have been.

Thanks for all the replies. It's been loads of fun. I'll leave it at that now. Think it's enough to inform my actions in this current campaign.

Ah, and if I have anything else to ask in future I'll try to avoid vestiges!

Edit: * 'that' being the method of bringing back a vestige