afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[Otomodachi]

Have you played Planescape: Torment, Afroakuma? If so/if you know enough of the game, would you consider Ignus to be someone who fairly represents a person actually worshipping elemental fire?


Also, kinda a poof-piece question, how did you feel about the coverage of elemental clerics in Earth, Air, Fire and Water for 2nd edition (Dark Sun) DnD? I personally found the idea mind-blowing. Do you think the way they describe those clerics working are pretty reasonable in terms of baselines for elemental worshippers in other settings?

[afroakuma]

Is there any particular in-multiverse "reason," so to speak, that Gehenna is non-infinite?

Gehenna is infinite.

Just what gods are those worshipped by flumph monks in their monasteries unknown to mortals?

Sorry, it says they aren't known to humanoids and I fear there may be some humanoids eavesdropping on this thread, so I cannot betray their secrets!

Or, reading alternately, the gods worshiped by monastic flumphs have never been identified.

Have you played Planescape: Torment, Afroakuma?

Would you believe no, oddly enough.

Also, kinda a poof-piece question, how did you feel about the coverage of elemental clerics in Earth, Air, Fire and Water for 2nd edition (Dark Sun) DnD?

I don't really have any feelings on the matter; they kind of strike me as wasteland druids of a sort more than "clerics" as a concept, but what can ya do.

Do you think the way they describe those clerics working are pretty reasonable in terms of baselines for elemental worshippers in other settings?

I mean, there's an actual basis for comparison here, since worshipers of Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia and Kossuth are elemental worshipers, functionally speaking, so I would suggest examining those for a start and seeing what you think.

[Lord_Gareth]

Where do the "ordinary" inhabitants of Ravenloft - the ones who people its domains and, rarely, take part in its extraordinary events, the dramas of the Darklords, or even adventures - come from? When a new Domain forms fully peopled (like Sithicus), were those people created by the Dark Powers? Stolen from elsewhere? Are they 'real' living beings with souls and free will?

[Tzardok]

IIRC when a being becomes vile enough to become a Darklord, the Dark Powers steal them together with the place they tyrannise to create a new domain, people and all. The "natives" are descended from those poor unfortunate souls.

[Coidzor]

Stolen from elsewhere? Are they 'real' living beings with souls and free will?

They're close enough to being people that bad things happen if you just slaughter them wholesale, IIRC.

[Darth Ultron]

Where do the "ordinary" inhabitants of Ravenloft - the ones who people its domains and, rarely, take part in its extraordinary events, the dramas of the Darklords, or even adventures - come from? When a new Domain forms fully peopled (like Sithicus), were those people created by the Dark Powers? Stolen from elsewhere? Are they 'real' living beings with souls and free will?

In 2E at least:

Any evil person might ''wander into the Mists'' and find themselves in Ravenloft.

Also, from time to time normal folks that just ''get lost'' can get grabbed by the Mist and taken.

[Dalmosh]

What can you tell us about the city of Yeoman? What makes it interesting or significant in the wider scheme of things?

Is the reforming evil wizard Malhevik of Lunia mentioned anywhere outside on the Manual of the Planes? Does he feature in any published modules?

[rigsmal]

Hypothetical, regarding the Dark Powers of Ravenloft.

If a dark lord brought into the Demiplane of Dread developed a sort of spiritual, monk-like inner peace with regards to their situation, no longer reacting to the existential torture the Powers like to subject dark lords to, would the Powers just boot the dark lord out of their demiplane or resort to physical punishment where mental and spiritual have failed?

[Malimar]

Hypothetical, regarding the Dark Powers of Ravenloft.

If a dark lord brought into the Demiplane of Dread developed a sort of spiritual, monk-like inner peace with regards to their situation, no longer reacting to the existential torture the Powers like to subject dark lords to, would the Powers just boot the dark lord out of their demiplane or resort to physical punishment where mental and spiritual have failed?

I wonder if this is even possible, or if they're like Sisyphus in the underworld -- they could stop at any point but their psychological makeup prevents it?

[Naanomi]

Hypothetical, regarding the Dark Powers of Ravenloft.

If a dark lord brought into the Demiplane of Dread developed a sort of spiritual, monk-like inner peace with regards to their situation, no longer reacting to the existential torture the Powers like to subject dark lords to, would the Powers just boot the dark lord out of their demiplane or resort to physical punishment where mental and spiritual have failed?

I suspect the Dark Powers choose (at least in part) Dark Lords specifically because they lack the capacity for that kind of personal growth

[enderlord99]

What would be a good name for a heavy metal band starring a Vrock and a Trumpet Archon that have both fallen to True Neutral? Also, do Energons (specifically Xong-Yong) experience any sort of childhood-equivalent?

[Eldan]

Trumpets of Jericho? Given that they combine magic trumpets and Dance of Ruin.

[Tzardok]

Hypothetical, regarding the Dark Powers of Ravenloft.

If a dark lord brought into the Demiplane of Dread developed a sort of spiritual, monk-like inner peace with regards to their situation, no longer reacting to the existential torture the Powers like to subject dark lords to, would the Powers just boot the dark lord out of their demiplane or resort to physical punishment where mental and spiritual have failed?

Something similar happened. Lord Soth fell into so deep depression that he stopped caring about everything. He didn't react anymore to the Dark Powers' tries of torturing him and pulled back into himself. Therefore the Dark Powers decided that he was redeemed (or maybe just no fun anymore, I have no idea what those entities think) and the Demiplane ofe Dread spit him back out to where it got him.

[thethird]

Why is ravenloft a demiplane? (I always assumed that a demiplane was a small plane that you, the character, created using the create demiplane spell and ravenloft with the dark powers sort of has the feel of being artificial. Is it that?)

[gkathellar]

I suspect the Dark Powers choose (at least in part) Dark Lords specifically because they lack the capacity for that kind of personal growth

This. Darklords are specifically irredeemable people in the circumstances of their containment. Vlad is never going to give up on Tatyana because that's just who he is, for example.

Why is ravenloft a demiplane? (I always assumed that a demiplane was a small plane that you, the character, created using the create demiplane spell and ravenloft with the dark powers sort of has the feel of being artificial. Is it that?)

A demiplane is floats in the Astral Ethereal and is specifically finite. This distinguishes it from the Inner, (conventional) Outer, and Transitive Planes, which are specifically infinite and built into the structure of reality. Some demiplanes are naturally occurring, while others are artificial. Many, such as the Demiplane of Dread, occupy an ambiguous space in between.

Basically, it's a demiplane because it's not in any other category.

(One transitive plane, the Plane of Shadows, is a former demiplane - but this took the multiverse getting slapped upside the head to happen.)

[Tzardok]

Most demiplanes are actually in the Ether (in fact, in 2e every demiplane was in the Ether). 3.x on the other hand seems to have done away with every restriction on where demiplanes can form, so you can stumble about a demiplane somewhere in Celestia.

[Darth Ultron]

Why is ravenloft a demiplane? (I always assumed that a demiplane was a small plane that you, the character, created using the create demiplane spell and ravenloft with the dark powers sort of has the feel of being artificial. Is it that?)

Some demi-planes are old and it is unknown if the are created or just part of the multiverse naturally.

The vast majority of the commonly known demiplanes are created by someone.

Ravenloft is no different: It was (likely) made by someone...probably the Dark Powers. And in Ravenlofts case, it is a ''large'' demiplane, though, of course size is relative and meaningless. Ravenloft has a dozen or so lands, so it is about as ''big'' as say Rhode Island.

You could see Ravenloft as a group of connected demiplanes ''inside'' the demiplane of Ravenloft. Rules-wise the Dark Powers would have used something like an Epic Spell: Create Demiplane Pocket; a spell that made a demiplane that was a holding place for other demiplanes. Though there are no official rules for this, as it is all just kept vague.

[Naanomi]

(in fact, in 2e every demiplane was in the Ether)

I don't think that is correct... Faerie was floating around the Upper Planes in 2e right? A few Primes have had weird Demi-Planes attached to them since 2e also (Athas' planar weirdness; the elemental demiplanes attached to the Temple of Elemental Evil, maybe that God-meeting place associated with Ao in FR?). The Lady's Mazes are also not in the Ethereal I think. Psionically created Astral Demiplanes may also be a 2e idea (I'm less confident about this one).

Some examples of demiplanes that may not have had actual creators and just occurred naturally: Demiplanes of... Mirrors (though maybe created by the Kamarel), Dreams, Draedenden (though maybe created by Draeden), Neth (unless it created itself?), Time and/or Temporal Energy, Wood (from alternate/Asian elemental plane interpretations)

[Eldan]

No, they are all in the Ethereal. The mazes are several times called out as being there. They just have connections to some places as well.

The thing about demiplanes in 2E, at least, is that they keep growing over time and some may arise naturally, or just be unimaginably old. The difference to true planes seems to be mainly that they can be seen from the outside in the ethereal and that they are not truly infinite.

Shadow was a demiplane back then, too.

[gkathellar]

No, they are all in the Ethereal.

Yeah, I derp'd. Shoulda said Ethereal, not Astral.

[Naanomi]

No, they are all in the Ethereal. The mazes are several times called out as being there. They just have connections to some places as well.

The thing about demiplanes in 2E, at least, is that they keep growing over time and some may arise naturally, or just be unimaginably old. The difference to true planes seems to be mainly that they can be seen from the outside in the ethereal and that they are not truly infinite.

Shadow was a demiplane back then, too.

Even Faerie, which drifted around the Upper Planes; far from the Ethereal?

[Tzardok]

I think you are confusing the non-standard plane of Faerie, which IIRC was added in 3e Manual of the Planes, with the divine realm of the fey deities Oberron and Titania, which indeed drifts around chaotic good Outer Planes.
(Divine Realms are allowed to do that, remember Bahamut's Palace?)

[afroakuma]

Where do the "ordinary" inhabitants of Ravenloft - the ones who people its domains and, rarely, take part in its extraordinary events, the dramas of the Darklords, or even adventures - come from? When a new Domain forms fully peopled (like Sithicus), were those people created by the Dark Powers? Stolen from elsewhere? Are they 'real' living beings with souls and free will?

Sure why not.

The frank answer is, three versions of the setting have come and gone, and none of them have ever bothered to talk about the origins of the many peoples of Ravenloft from an etiological standpoint. They may be imports from a domain pulled wholecloth into the Mists, the descendants of individuals who landed in Ravenloft independently, the recycled souls of the non-Vistani dead circulating back into reincarnated bodies while others are born soulless from lack of supply, or outright shades and phantasms given "reality" for the sake of Ravenloft's eternal morality play. Perhaps they arise from an archive of lost souls collected long before Strahd first strode the Demiplane of Dread. They could even be a blend of these origins. Who can say whether the Dark Powers send forth the Mists to collect people across a thousand worlds when they need new victims for a Darklord's prison?

I assume that "real" and uniquely ensouled beings must constitute at the very least a plurality, as there are documented cases of Ravenloft natives becoming Darklords in their own right. Maybe they share the origins of the Vistani, that strange wandering people who seem to uniquely defy the Mists.

What can you tell us about the city of Yeoman?

That it's impossible to search a common word and narrow down what you're talking about. Are you referring to Yeoman's Loft, or something else? If the latter then please provide more detail so I can go to my sources.

Is the reforming evil wizard Malhevik of Lunia mentioned anywhere outside on the Manual of the Planes?

Not last time I checked.

If a dark lord brought into the Demiplane of Dread developed a sort of spiritual, monk-like inner peace with regards to their situation, no longer reacting to the existential torture the Powers like to subject dark lords to, would the Powers just boot the dark lord out of their demiplane or resort to physical punishment where mental and spiritual have failed?

Arguably being able to acquire said inner peace would involve coming to terms with one's demons, which would be grounds for removal as darklord. Of course, given the nature of those chosen as Darklords, not to mention the torments of their domains, this is unlikely. It's also worth noting that the Dark Powers have never demonstrated any kind of obligation to release one of their charges, even if they are no longer suitable darklords - most former darklords received their "former" through getting murdered, while another is still a prisoner of the plane and under a personalized curse, but lacks a domain to rule.

What would be a good name for a heavy metal band starring a Vrock and a Trumpet Archon that have both fallen to True Neutral?

Between: A Vrock And A Hard Case

Also, do Energons (specifically Xong-Yong) experience any sort of childhood-equivalent?

I mean there are smaller ones and larger ones, but no, not meaningfully.

Why is ravenloft a demiplane? (I always assumed that a demiplane was a small plane that you, the character, created using the create demiplane spell and ravenloft with the dark powers sort of has the feel of being artificial. Is it that?)

"Demiplanes" encompass a number of different phenomena, both the natural demiplanes often found in the Deep Ethereal and the artificial demiplanes created using spells or psionic powers.

Even Faerie, which drifted around the Upper Planes; far from the Ethereal?

You're thinking of the Seelie Court, I believe, which was a type of roaming spiritual realm which moved around the chaotic good section of the Wheel.

[Naanomi]

I think you are confusing the non-standard plane of Faerie, which IIRC was added in 3e Manual of the Planes, with the divine realm of the fey deities Oberron and Titania, which indeed drifts around chaotic good Outer Planes.
(Divine Realms are allowed to do that, remember Bahamut's Palace?)

While created by Titania, I've only seen the Plane of Faerie described as a Plane/Demiplane; not a Divine Realm. Monster Mythology didn't treat it like a Divine Realm, despite Gods living there. Maybe Afro will have a more definitive reference either way?

(In all fairness, it has been treated inconsistently even in 2e, The fading lands from Greyhawk... Legacy of the Liosafar calling it an alternate Prime... Birthright putting the Shadow Land of Faerie in the Border Ethereal... early FR and Crystal Spheres treating it as a foreign crystal sphere 'Faerie space'...)

Given its most prominent direct connections are in the Outlands, I have doubts the Plane of Mirrors (from Tales of the Infinite Staircase) was intended to live in the Ethereal as well; but often seems more like a 'transitive-esque' Plane akin to Sigil, the Infinite Staircase, or the World Serpent Inn than a traditional demiplane

[Dalmosh]

By Yeoman, I mean the largest city on Dolthion.

[afroakuma]

While created by Titania, I've only seen the Plane of Faerie described as a Plane/Demiplane; not a Divine Realm. Monster Mythology didn't treat it like a Divine Realm, despite Gods living there. Maybe Afro will have a more definitive reference either way?

I literally just spoke to this. Titania's divine realm is The Seelie Court and roams between the Beastlands, Arborea, and Ysgard. It's a realm shared by the deities Caoimhin, Damh, Eachthighern, Emmantiensien, Fionnghuala, Nathair Sgiathach, Oberon, Squelaiche, and Verenestra.

By Yeoman, I mean the largest city on Dolthion.

Boring place. Let's see... mayor is Lizabet the Seer, a bariaur diviner; also has a Conclave of Masters who approve her decisions by simple majority. The Planar Trade Consortium is trying to gain market share in the trading conducted there, while the Order of the Planes-Militant sees it as a ripe hub for gaining converts (and hopefully dragging it onto Mount Celestia as a result). It's a hub of industry and trade for the whole layer and arguably the plane, sitting at the confluence of the rivers Diligence and Splendor. That's basically the sum of it.

[rigsmal]

Hey afro, do you pay attention to 3rd party or homebrew settings? Any you particularly like?

[afroakuma]

Hey afro, do you pay attention to 3rd party or homebrew settings? Any you particularly like?

I mean, I was involved in a big homebrew setting project many years ago... that's the only one I recall offhand.

As for third-party, I've read Kingdoms of Kalamar. I don't like it. That's about it.

[Naanomi]

Sorry about that Afro, I think I was typing my reply the same time you were by the time stamps...

Anyways, if you go too high in the air (or too low Underground) in the Outlands , do things start to get 'Hinterlandsy'? Or is that only distance from the infinitely tall (and deep?) Spire?

More broadly, is there anything established about the 'really high in the sky' or 'really deep in the ground' portions of the various Outer Planes (those that have such things of course, I recognize it hardly matters in many of them)?

[gkathellar]

The skies of all layers of the Abyss are claimed by Pazuzu, Demon Prince of Birbs. Only Graz'zt disputes this, but he doesn't do anything about it.