afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[Tzardok]

Sorry about that Afro, I think I was typing my reply the same time you were by the time stamps...

Anyways, if you go too high in the air (or too low Underground) in the Outlands , do things start to get 'Hinterlandsy'? Or is that only distance from the infinitely tall (and deep?) Spire?

More broadly, is there anything established about the 'really high in the sky' or 'really deep in the ground' portions of the various Outer Planes (those that have such things of course, I recognize it hardly matters in many of them)?

There's nothing official on it, but here is an article where someone gave his answers to this question. I don't remember much of it, only Bytopia (if you dig low enough, gravity reverses and you start digging up to the other layer) and the Outlands (the higher you fly, the greater becomes the radius of the magic suppression areas; the deeper you dig, the closer the Hinterlands-effect comes to the Spire).

[Ungoded]

What is Rigus like and what is on the Acheron side of the Gate?

Also, what are the best sources of information for the Gate Towns?

[rigsmal]

Also, what are the best sources of information for the Gate Towns?

I'm sure afro has his own preferences, but I use the 2e sourcebook A Player's Primer to the Outlands. Alternatively, look through Planewalker's downloads for their updated 3e, 3.5e Planescape campaign setting PDF. Bear in mind the former is pre-Faction War and the latter's post- but canon.

Bear in mind that while Planewalker's PSCS supplement is a canon summary of post-Faction War affairs, not everything they have is canon.

[JoeyTheNeko]

are there any canon campaigns and modules that use the several troll varieties from MM3? mostly crystal and war trolls, but any of them would be nice to know about.

[unseenmage]

What are the major perils of using the Plane of Shadow for travelling between campaign settings and or alternate primes?

As above but the Plane of Dreams?

What would be your preferred reality hopping method?

Which is easier, going from Faerun to PF's Golarion or the reverse?

As above but for Eberron?

I assume Faerun is one of the easiest starting points for any kind of high magic shenanigan but I ask anyway just in case I am mistsken.

[ksbsnowowl]

What is Rigus like and what is on the Acheron side of the Gate?

Also, what are the best sources of information for the Gate Towns?

Rigus and Acheron (and Rigus' gate to Acheron) are all detailed a bit in 3.0's module Lord of the Iron Fortress. The Acheron side of the Gate opens up on the Battle Cube (in 2e this was the cube that held the divine realms of both the goblin god Maglubiyet and the orc god Grummsh, on separate sides; as per the sidebar on MotP p. 123, they are now split into two cubes. No official note on which one holds the gate, now; I put it on Maglubiyet's cube when I ran LotIF.)

Hellbound: The Blood War has info and maps on Plague-Mort, IIRC.

are there any canon campaigns and modules that use the several troll varieties from MM3? mostly crystal and war trolls, but any of them would be nice to know about.

Not from the MM3, but Expedition to Castle Ravenloft has a Spirit Troll, which is a troll/invisible stalker cross.

The Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde has a Mountain Troll, which is from the MM3.

Elder Evils has high-level adventure locations detailed in its pages, and Chapter 4 includes War Trolls and Cave Trolls.

[afroakuma]

Anyways, if you go too high in the air (or too low Underground) in the Outlands , do things start to get 'Hinterlandsy'? Or is that only distance from the infinitely tall (and deep?) Spire?

I haven't found anything specifying what happens with vertical distance, though it would not surprise me at all to learn that past a certain extreme it gets a bit trolly.

More broadly, is there anything established about the 'really high in the sky' or 'really deep in the ground' portions of the various Outer Planes (those that have such things of course, I recognize it hardly matters in many of them)?

I mean, you're likely able to determine that based on the individual planes - Acheron, Carceri, and Ysgard all feature chunks of geography scattered in an endless sky, so "really high" is just "toward some other chunk." "Really deep" is "you're about to do a Looney Tunes thing if you aren't careful".

As for others, layers are infinities. You cannot dig so deep in Avernus that you break through and end up in Dis. You can dig a hole just as deep as the massive rift that characterizes Pazunia so, but it won't necessarily grant access to any other layer of the Abyss. Bytopia, as noted, wraps both diggers and flyers to the other layer with its binary gravity-reversal gimmick; off the cuff, I don't know of any others that do anything special, and I don't think anything will turn up.

What is Rigus like

Rigus is an unpleasant place, a rigid military encampment composed of seven rings. Each ring is defined by a massive octagonal wall of iron, as well as an extra one to seal off the outermost ring from the rest of the Outlands. Rigus is a place of ruthless order and law; everyone, even travelers, is part of a rank system, and being in breach of the town's laws will mark you out for demotion and other sentencing. Rigus is run by lichlike shades of past "generals," leading citizens of Rigus, who direct the current generals in the affairs of the town. Strangers are not particularly welcome, and are encouraged to be on their way as soon as their business in the town is concluded. The population is dominated by humans, tieflings, hobgoblins, orcs, and members of other warlike races.

and what is on the Acheron side of the Gate?

The Acheron side opens onto a cube known only as the Battle Cube, a prominent battlefield for the armies of Gruumsh and Maglubiyet to wage war against one another. Parts of the cube, particularly the area around the gate, appear to be no-man's land and/or in a state of cold war, as travelers are able to arrive and move to and from the gate unmolested while the sounds of combat are heard in the distance. It's probable that neither the orcs nor the goblins are interested in the risks of involving third parties in their war and possibly finding themselves outmatched as a result of unnecessary provocations, especially given the kind of traffic that use such a planar gate. It's also probable that anyone walking through is watched like a hawk by sets of goblinoid and orc eye. This is a war zone, after all.

Also, what are the best sources of information for the Gate Towns?

As someone said, A Player's Primer to the Outlands is a good start, though individual products may go into more detail about specific gate towns, generally adventure modules that pass through one or more of them.

What are the major perils of using the Plane of Shadow for travelling between campaign settings and or alternate primes?

The biggest risk is that you have to pass through Deep Shadow, which is a truly... special place. Everything that Shadow is, Deep Shadow is moreso, impossible landscapes of shadowstuff that mirror no known realm and are home to inhabitants that may never have existed as the shadow of any other creature. How long it will take, how to safely coordinate your route, and what awaits across the vast gap, none can say with certainty - Shadow is never the most stable or clearly-understood place at the best of times.

As above but the Plane of Dreams?

I don't see anything in the Manual of the Planes that alludes to the Region of Dreams being a usable route between alternate Material Planes. Where did you see this?

What would be your preferred reality hopping method?

If I were doing it, Shadow.

Which is easier, going from Faerun to PF's Golarion or the reverse?

I don't know anything about Golarion, so I don't know that I can reasonably answer that.

As above but for Eberron?

I don't consider Eberron to be separate from the Great Wheel cosmology. Or Faerun, for that matter. That said, I don't know why either direction should be particularly more difficult.

I assume Faerun is one of the easiest starting points for any kind of high magic shenanigan but I ask anyway just in case I am mistsken.

I don't know that that's the case, given that Mystra's got a high-level goon squad to harass people trying to do silly things. Again, there's nothing explicitly saying "this is the best world to depart from/arrive at!" out there.

[Jowgen]

In regards to the above post, I just want to say that this is the kind of quality content I keep going into these threads for, even when I don't have any questions myself. Praise be Afro.

[unseenmage]

...

I don't see anything in the Manual of the Planes that alludes to the Region of Dreams being a usable route between alternate Material Planes. Where did you see this?

...

Has been a while since I read up on it but from what I remember pretty much anything is possible in dreams and the Lucid Dreaming skill can make those things manifest.
The Dreamheart is where the real fiat powers come in though. Again drawing purely from very old memories the Dreamheart is to Dream as Deep Shadow is to Shadow.

[Tzardok]

In regards to the above post, I just want to say that this is the kind of quality content I keep going into these threads for, even when I don't have any questions myself. Praise be Afro.

Amen to that, brother.

[Jowgen]

Vecna's Phylactery. Do we know what/where it was prior to his apotheosis and whether it still holds any meaning?

[unseenmage]

Have been contemplating the navigation of Deep Shadow and found myself wondering, is it vast in distance?

Is Deep Shadow comparably smaller than regular Shadow or is that a misnomer?

If one were to chart a course through Deep Shadow, would that chart be useful later on? Is Deep Shadow theoretically mappable?

Do we know of any particularly powerful entities, gods or outsiders or whatnot, that reside in Deep Shadow specifically?

What would the harm be in using magic and permanent Gates to swiftly build a beachhead, or even a small crude city, in Deep Shadow as a base of operation?
I assume it is a 'VERY BAD IDEA' but how bad? How bad on a scale of Astral to Far Realm?

[Svata]

Is Deep Shadow comparably smaller than regular Shadow or is that a misnomer?

I'm not Afroakuma, and therefore shouldn't be answering questions here, but this confuses me. Why does Deep Shadow imply smaller? Deep ocean doesn't imply that there's less of it than of shallow ocean.

[gkathellar]

Why does it seem like most demons are single-sexed? Are there female balors? Male mariliths? If not, why?

[Tzardok]

There's a post in second thread on that subject, but here's the gist: Demons can with a few exceptions be male, female, hermaphrodite or neutral and can change their gender over time to fit their current prediposition. Succubi, lilithu and incubi are a few of the gender locked demons.

[Malimar]

Can you think of any devil below the Pit Fiend level that can use raise dead/resurrection/true resurrection (or wish/miracle/limited wish to mimic raise dead, or whatever) or anything along those lines?

Backstory: Party got Feathers the Erinyes devil in its debt. Party member died. Party called upon Feathers, who called in a debt he was owed from Mr. Happypants, a stronger devil of unspecified type, who resurrected the fallen party member. I'm wondering what manner of devil Mr. Happypants might be.

If there's any devil that casts as a cleric of at least 3rd level, that would work too, I can work with up to 6 real cleric levels stacked on. I didn't specify at the time whether Mr. Happypants used an SLA or a spell.

(This is for 3.5, but if you've got anything from any other edition of D&D, or even PF, I can work with it.)

Currently it's between a Pit Fiend (but why would a Pit Fiend owe a lowly Erinyes so much as to be willing to use his 1/year wish?) or something in the vein of a fallen Ghaele Eladrin (fallen diagonally all the way across the alignment grid, so maybe Helm of Opposite Alignment'd), but I'm open to better ideas.

[afroakuma]

Vecna's Phylactery. Do we know what/where it was prior to his apotheosis and whether it still holds any meaning?

We actually don't even know whether or not he had one. Believe it or not, Vecna has never been seen in lich form, ever. His first appearance in statted form was not until the later part of 2nd Edition, where he was already a demigod. He's also noted to have become a lich "by unknown means," though the general obscurity and handwaviness of the lichdom rituals means I can't attach strong significance to that line.

If he did have one, it's likely that it would have some meaning, though certainly not the normal significance of a phylactery. Of course, as god of secrets, tracking it down would be an intensely challenging task.

Have been contemplating the navigation of Deep Shadow and found myself wondering, is it vast in distance?

I would imagine just how vast depends where you're aiming to go, but I would expect it's not a short jaunt to use it.

Is Deep Shadow comparably smaller than regular Shadow or is that a misnomer?

As someone noted above, that's rather like "deep sea" vs. "water surface." Deep Shadow is infinite and well beyond "Border" Shadow in scope.

If one were to chart a course through Deep Shadow, would that chart be useful later on? Is Deep Shadow theoretically mappable?

Pfft, no.

Do we know of any particularly powerful entities, gods or outsiders or whatnot, that reside in Deep Shadow specifically?

I assume "specifically" does not mean "exclusively" or this will be an extremely short answer. You could expect most of the more dangerous natives to inhabit that part of the plane - nightshades, shadow giants, etc.

The dark deity Erebus may reside within Deep Shadow, though given that he has designs on the Material Plane and his agents there it's more likely that he operates in "Border" Shadow.

What would the harm be in using magic and permanent Gates to swiftly build a beachhead, or even a small crude city, in Deep Shadow as a base of operation?

Besides the possibility that the beachhead in question simply gets swallowed up by Deep Shadow, there's the issue of the attentions it might draw from things within that place where the shadows are not cast. Also, anything that routinely admits light into Shadow... well. At the very least, it'll be a beacon for things to begin lurking around on the Shadow side. Shadow in general is not a particularly stable place to attempt any kind of settlement or foothold - s'why they're so rare.

I assume it is a 'VERY BAD IDEA' but how bad? How bad on a scale of Astral to Far Realm?

Not sure what "Astral" represents in this context.

Why does it seem like most demons are single-sexed? Are there female balors? Male mariliths? If not, why?

I can't imagine gender is of tremendous concern to most balors. I also don't see why there can't be female balors. I don't know that either "gender" would possess discernible sex characteristics - and of course given that they're chaotic in nature, odds are decent that they could alter those as desired. Do you consider vrocks single-gendered? Hezrou? Nothing stipulates that they are.

As for mariliths, as far as I know they are all female, though the demon Verin can take the form of a "male marilith." Perhaps their appearance and nature is an echo of the dark goddess Kali, who resides deep within the Abyss. Perhaps they are actually genderless or consider themselves to be of other genders and merely happen to display physical characteristics associated with female humanoids.

Can you think of any devil below the Pit Fiend level that can use raise dead/resurrection/true resurrection (or wish/miracle/limited wish to mimic raise dead, or whatever) or anything along those lines?

Nope. Could always do something like an amnizu cleric, though that's still going to be a fairly high-CR thing, since no standard devil has native cleric casting. Alternately, just make it a unique devil that happens to possess such a capacity - perhaps a particularly specialist kochrachon or excruciarch who possesses the ability to bring his victims back against their will provided they had his venom in their bodies at time of death (presumably this would be a willing participant, so no venom needed).

Currently it's between a Pit Fiend (but why would a Pit Fiend owe a lowly Erinyes so much as to be willing to use his 1/year wish?)

Valuable secret shared or timely warning provided, or she might have somehow acquired its true name or a dangerous fragment of its soul, or she may simply hold a position in Hell's hierarchy that provides her blackmail leverage.

[Ungoded]

Is Sigil open on the "hole" side of the donut?

To ask another way, does a cross-section of the city look like a circle, or a "c"?

[Feantar]

Nope. Could always do something like an amnizu cleric, though that's still going to be a fairly high-CR thing, since no standard devil has native cleric casting. Alternately, just make it a unique devil that happens to possess such a capacity - perhaps a particularly specialist kochrachon or excruciarch who possesses the ability to bring his victims back against their will provided they had his venom in their bodies at time of death (presumably this would be a willing participant, so no venom needed).

Valuable secret shared or timely warning provided, or she might have somehow acquired its true name or a dangerous fragment of its soul, or she may simply hold a position in Hell's hierarchy that provides her blackmail leverage.

I think this might be one time where cultists (see PRCs like Disciple of Asmodeus) might come in handy.

[Naanomi]

Another ‘grappling with the infinite nature of the cosmology with my puny mortal mind’ question...

Are the ‘standard races’ (humans, Elves, vilekith, etc) more or less present on all (or most) of the infinite Prime Material worlds, or just in the ‘local area’ of the DnD campaign settings?

-If the former, how did they spread infinitely from what I assume is singular places of creation?

-If the later, why are so many prominent NPCs in the Planes (factols, etc) members of those common races (instead of one of the infinite random other races in other parts of the infinite Prime)?

Also, unrelated, can an Ur-Priest still cast in areas where the energy of the Gods is cut off (like Athas or anywhere Panodyrm is mucking about)?

[gkathellar]

Another ‘grappling with the infinite nature of the cosmology with my puny mortal mind’ question...

Are the ‘standard races’ (humans, Elves, vilekith, etc) more or less present on all (or most) of the infinite Prime Material worlds, or just in the ‘local area’ of the DnD campaign settings?

Just about every major race has been created multiple times on multiple worlds by gods looking to broaden their spheres of influence. Originally, though? Spelljammers.

In general, you'll want to read froboleth's history of the Prime Material. (I'd link the first post, but the mobile site is a pain. Ctrl-F "Small creature, attend to me now" to find the start of it.)

-If the former, how did they spread infinitely from what I assume is singular places of creation?

They're not spread infinitely, just far and wide - arguably more so on the Prime than on the Planes, since there's an interstellar elven empire and backwards space orcs, but neither of those races are well-established in Sigil. Of the "normal" races, only humans and half-elves are well-established on the Wheel.

[Naanomi]

They're not spread infinitely, just far and wide - arguably more so on the Prime than on the Planes, since there's an interstellar elven empire and backwards space orcs, but neither of those races are well-established in Sigil. Of the "normal" races, only humans and half-elves are well-established on the Wheel.

But if that is true, then there are infinitely more places where there are no Elves than there are places where there are Elves. I should expect to never encounter an elf in the Inner or Outer Planes compares to the infinite hodgepodge of other races from across the infinite Prime. And yet, a lot of established NPCs from the Planes are elven...

[afroakuma]

Is Sigil open on the "hole" side of the donut?

I'm immensely unclear on what this is intended to mean.

Are the ‘standard races’ (humans, Elves, vilekith, etc) more or less present on all (or most) of the infinite Prime Material worlds, or just in the ‘local area’ of the DnD campaign settings?

Neither, particularly. They are present, in various configurations, on many spheres in the Arcane Inner Flow quadrant of known space as demarcated by the Arcane Outer Flow. Many likely exist far beyond that region. Given the actual nature of your question, though, the answer is effectively the latter.

-If the later, why are so many prominent NPCs in the Planes (factols, etc) members of those common races (instead of one of the infinite random other races in other parts of the infinite Prime)?

Observer bias. You're looking at places, structures, and organizations of interest to the peoples who populate them. For comparison, just think of the Athar - while aboleths share a similar philosophical bent, the notion of joining a dogmatic cult to harass people about how the powers are a lie and a joke is preposterous to them. Similarly, Duke Rowan Darkwood would have little interest in leading a group of suwyze or palling around with tiraphegs. Hades doesn't have a lot of harssaf worshipers and doesn't exactly invest resources in bidding for their interest.

Compound that with the diversity of people you'd consider "elves" and "humans," the fact that several major races of the past have died out, and the fact that many of the "prominent NPCs" you describe are prominent due to their associations with specific worlds or pantheons and a given module's interest therein, and it shouldn't really come as a surprise that the people you run into happen to be the people you run into elsewhere... at least in broad strokes. This applies to these groups themselves within the setting proper, too - how many flawder do you think are interested in hanging about with a bunch of two-legged barebacks, no matter what their shared philosophies? In turn, how many humanoids do you think would be interested in taking direction regarding their personal ideology from a giant talking snail?

Also, unrelated, can an Ur-Priest still cast in areas where the energy of the Gods is cut off (like Athas or anywhere Panodyrm is mucking about)?

Nope.

[Naanomi]

That makes sense, to a degree, but I still struggle with some of the specifics. Let’s take... Sigil; a place that no matter your body configuration it’s place in the Cosmology means that people from all over existence are likely you end up there.

If familiar humanoids are only found in a vast yet finite part of the infinite Prime; then just by ‘comparative infinities’ math I should essentially never expect to meet another known humanoid from the Prime there.... infinite variety VS finite familiarity just seems to work out that way. Sigil should be constantly filled with Planar Creatures (who come from infinitely populous races) and a completely random hodgepodge of Primes (each of which from their own neck of the infinitely differentiated Prime). The fact that I meet another human there at all (who didn’t travel with me) would be an almost unimaginable statistical miracle

Probably just my own mortal mind being unable to grasp the intricate nature of the Planes (or gamist logic that I’m not supposed to think about too much)

[Ungoded]

I'm immensely unclear on what this is intended to mean.

In retrospect, that could have been a LOT clearer. Let me try again:

In many of the pictures I have seen of Sigil, such as this one, this one, or this one, the torus appears to be open on the "inside" or "hole" side.

I originally assumed that was just to show a view of the actual city inside the torus, but that the torus itself was closed all the way around. However, in In the Cage it mentions a spot in The Lady's Ward where people go to the "edge" and jump off. That made me wonder if the city was actually open on that side.

If it isn't open, if the torus is completely closed, what "edge" do people jump from?

[afroakuma]

That makes sense, to a degree, but I still struggle with some of the specifics. Let’s take... Sigil; a place that no matter your body configuration it’s place in the Cosmology means that people from all over existence are likely you end up there.

Is that so? I haven't seen a dragon there, or an ixitxachitl, or a kraken. Hell, I don't think I've even seen a giant there. You're not going to tell me that giants and dragons are unfamiliar or lack the magical capacity to travel the Planes.

If familiar humanoids are only found in a vast yet finite part of the infinite Prime; then just by ‘comparative infinities’ math I should essentially never expect to meet another known humanoid from the Prime there... infinite variety VS finite familiarity just seems to work out that way.

And yet you do. It's almost like there's some sort of set of planar principles that reinforce observer bias

The second principle is the Unity of Rings, and notes that many things on the planes are circular, coming back around to where they started.

The third principle is the Center of All, and states that there is a center of everything — or, rather, wherever a person happens to be is the center of the multiverse... from their own perspective, at least.

Sigil should be constantly filled with Planar Creatures (who come from infinitely populous races) and a completely random hodgepodge of Primes (each of which from their own neck of the infinitely differentiated Prime). The fact that I meet another human there at all (who didn’t travel with me) would be an almost unimaginable statistical miracle

It is in fact filled with planar creatures, at least some number of them, and a goodly hodgepodge indeed, but the fact remains that even within populations of familiar creatures Sigil isn't a relevant be-all end-all in their philosophy. The humans of Maztica, for example, consider Maztlan to be the crossroads of the multiverse.

You're also making the assumption that infinity must mean "all configurations of all things have happened." If I have an infinite number of orange trees, how many of them are growing apples? If I have ten apple trees and an infinite number of orange trees, how many of them are growing apples? There's absolutely nothing dictating that there has to be a population of psionic spelljamming crucians plotting a takeover of the Fated so that they can ally with a rogue efreeti faction devoted to water elemental magics and declare war on an ormyrr lich and his fallen half-celestial displacer beast comrade.

In retrospect, that could have been a LOT clearer. Let me try again

Aaah, that's what you mean. Yes, Sigil does in fact have an "edge" - it doesn't look like an edge, since it's concealed behind windowless buildings, but if you climb up them you can absolutely jump off and end up in the endless void. Given the layout of the city, the edge is never really more than a few miles away at best.

[Naanomi]

Heh I wasn’t really thinking about it in ‘everything is possible’ sense. More like... if I have two sets of planar travelers from the Prime... a finite set of humans, and an infinite set of (anything else that could possibly travel to Sigil in all of the Primes); then the finite set compared to the infinite is essentially indistinguishable from 0.

That the nature of the planes themselves conspire to keep things focused (from my perspective) on me... and thus on things familiar to me ‘from my neck of the woods’ helps me get a grasp on how general travel in the Planes ends up the way it does...

I guess I still don’t grasp why every Prime inhabitant seen in such a natural planar hub like Sigil seems to just happen to come from the insignificant finite speck of the Prime called the Arcane Flow (unless we presume that the Arcane Flow is in some way ‘more important’ than the rest of the infinite Prime in some real, objective sense)

[ksbsnowowl]

Aaah, that's what you mean. Yes, Sigil does in fact have an "edge" - it doesn't look like an edge, since it's concealed behind windowless buildings, but if you climb up them you can absolutely jump off and end up in the endless void. Given the layout of the city, the edge is never really more than a few miles away at best.

If you jump off the edge, aren't you really just jumping into open air near the Spire of the Outlands? I had thought that it just meant you would fall off because no magical abilities work that close to the Spire, at least outside of Sigil.

[Mr Adventurer]

No - Sigil is in endless void of indeterminate nature. (I think it's described as white? Or grey?) It can be seen atop the Spire, but since the Spire is itself infinitely tall, and space-skipping magic is negated near to it, it can't be reached from the Outlands directly.

IIRC.

[Zombimode]

Why does it seem like most demons are single-sexed? Are there female balors? Male mariliths? If not, why?

I think you may confusing appearance with a quality that a subset of biological life-forms have (sex).

And in Terms of appearance, there are Outsiders with clear female traits, one with clear male traits, and the ones where this is not so clear - or dependent on the onlooker.

Balors are a good example. Personally, I don't perceive them as clearly "male". Sure, they have a humanoid Body type, but they are rather sex-neutral. Contrast Marilith with clear female breasts and female facial features.